On Changing Minds

[Phanta]

I'm doing the best I can, End. It's been a long, long lonely time. Most people are just doing the best they can with the cards that were handed to them. Not good enough for your God concept, surely, but still my level best.

 

P

[Sconnor]

What's your point? Are you a farmer or fisherman today?.....did you just miss the scripture I posted? I am the one claiming brokenness and faith.

Fuck it.

 

Clay said that miracles were made to convince the rational and critical fishermen at the time of Jesus. That's what I made a comment about. My cynical approach was a statement to point out that fishermen and farmers of that time were NOT (of course, ) very critical or rational. They were the guild of gullible galore. So don't fucking try to convince me that they were the 200 IQ Einsteins of their day. It's just retarded beyond comprehension.

 

The only reason why you're fucking my chain right now is because you have nothing sensible or intelligible to say, but you're too horny to stop yourself.

 

So, whatever. You're crazy.

 

I read backwards and understand the context that you are referring to. My mistake. Doesn't make sense to me if that is what Clay said.

 

 

Wh; wha; whaaaaaat?!??! Christians having contradictory interpretations of scripture? Go figure!!!

 

--S.

[Guest end3]

So logically, who would you have given the message and miracles to?

 

Me.

 

He did P....the message is in the Bible and the miracles come through faith.

Those are just words. Only text.

 

Show the real thing. Give us real miracles. Tangible, real, touchable, factual, here-and-now miracles. But you can't, because those miracles happened only for the purpose to convince the super-intelligent fishermen, and today we're too stupid to see miracles.

 

What a asinine excuse.

If I could, you wouldn't believe it anyhow.

 

There was a time I would have. I was open. Then, with none in sight, I had to change to survive and thrive as best I could on my own.

 

Phanta

 

I hear you saying that you found identification in those that were struggling as you were...and this bond is too strong to break for an idea that you at once passed over. My question is, had you given it a faithful opportunity to work for you before?

 

To your other post. Some of the conversations here are to share feelings and ideas. Most of them are not. I would please like you to consider that the "most of them that are not" shouldn't always be something for you to file in the a personal file P. I should probably take my own advice in that regard as well.

[Ouroboros]

If I could, you wouldn't believe it anyhow.

Since I am me, I probably know me better than you know me. So don't suppose something based on your half-ass religious attitude. I believe I would believe if God would do miracles in my family. The problem is, God never did. Never. Ever. Never. Nothing. Not even a little hint. Not even a toast with a picture of Jesus or Mary on it. Nothing. Get that through your head.

 

So, during all those years when I wanted to see a miracle, God didn't do anything. Now, when I admit I would convert if I saw a true miracle, God won't do anything. And in both cases, it's all about words to protect God. It's just excuses. Just words, phrases, sentences, all without meaning. It's just bullshit. All of it. And you know it deep down in your heart, but you're too afraid to admit it. If you would admit it, you would have to leave that safety crutch behind. It's just make you feel special. Religion is just your way of feeling superior to everyone else. You're afraid to lose that, and you know it.

 

I have a son, and you know that too, who is paraplegic. If he would walk again, I would, guaranteed, believe again. And why would I say something like that? Because it is currently about 20-30 years beyond the medical science to help him. He needs new nerves. New muscles. New intestines. A new kidney. Restored liver. Scars healed. And much, much, more. It's extensive. If he was healed, it know for 100,000,000% that it would be beyond natural.

 

So do it. Fix it. Show me. Prove me wrong. I challenge you. But I'm sure you will chicken out because deep down you know you and/or God can't do it. It's beyond your faith, and beyond God's capacity. Simple as that.

 

So prove me wrong.

[Guest end3]

It's just bullshit. All of it. And you know it deep down in your heart, but you're too afraid to admit it. If you would admit it, you would have to leave that safety crutch behind. It's just make you feel special. Religion is just your way of feeling superior to everyone else. You're afraid to lose that, and you know it.

 

I appreciate the candor...I will consider it.

[Ouroboros]

I appreciate the candor...I will consider it.

Whatever.

[bdp]

Isn't it fascinating that Jesus showed miracles to men of faith like farmers, fishermen, and such?

 

Haven't you been around here long enough to know that

"men of faith" is just a nicer way of saying "gullible idiot" as far as we are concerned?

 

The point is, I doubt any of you less gullible idiots would know one end of a tractor from the other....or boat, or hook.

 

I would, end, I'm from farm country.

[bdp]

So logically, who would you have given the message and miracles to?

 

Me.

 

He did P....the message is in the Bible and the miracles come through faith.

Those are just words. Only text.

 

Show the real thing. Give us real miracles. Tangible, real, touchable, factual, here-and-now miracles. But you can't, because those miracles happened only for the purpose to convince the super-intelligent fishermen, and today we're too stupid to see miracles.

 

What a asinine excuse.

If I could, you wouldn't believe it anyhow.

 

Oh bullshit - don't take the lazy way out like this.

[Phanta]

I hear you saying that you found identification in those that were struggling as you were...and this bond is too strong to break for an idea that you at once passed over. My question is, had you given it a faithful opportunity to work for you before?

I was a child with my head in the clouds, an outsider a lot of the time having a real hard time pretty much every day. I was alone a lot, talking in my head to God, to fairies, to the ghosts of dead relatives, to Jesus, to anyone who might respond from the spirit world, chitter-chattering away, desperate for divine relief, connection, affirmation, hope, whatever.

 

Nothing, nothing, nothing.

 

I have no idea how I survived more or less intact with so much nothing, but here I am. I'm so grateful for the people and ideas that got me here. Read: not Christian. Not God. Not Jesus. Not in any form that is recognizable as such. That's a heavy witness.

 

To your other post. Some of the conversations here are to share feelings and ideas. Most of them are not. I would please like you to consider that the "most of them that are not" shouldn't always be something for you to file in the a personal file P. I should probably take my own advice in that regard as well.

 

I hear your gentle tone...but I don't understand what you mean at all after "I would like you to please consider...".

 

Phanta

[Sconnor]

It's just bullshit. All of it. And you know it deep down in your heart, but you're too afraid to admit it. If you would admit it, you would have to leave that safety crutch behind. It's just make you feel special. Religion is just your way of feeling superior to everyone else. You're afraid to lose that, and you know it.

 

I appreciate the candor...I will consider it.

 

Well hell, end, according to the bible, christ believers are commanded to heal people.

 

Why don't you be a good little christian and help Ouroboros out!

 

You believe in the bible don't ya?????

 

You're a disciple of christ, a Jesus believer; right? -- Then you can heal people. I know, why don't you get down to your local Pediatric Intensive Care Unit, where children are egregiously suffering and dying from aggressive childhood diseases, inoperable brain tumors, deformities hideous burns, etc. and start healing ALL the sick children, or help Ouroboros out, like your bible tells you.

 

Mark 16:17-18 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall...drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

 

Holy shit!?! Good thing you Know ALL about "baptism of the holy spirit bullshit" -- Not only can you drink poison you can heal the sick!

 

Matthew 10:6-8 As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

 

Your a christ believer end -- right? Jesus commands you and the other disciples of christ to go out and heal -- what are you waiting for?

 

Proverbs 16:3 Commit to the LORD whatever you do, and your plans will succeed.

 

The bible is clear -- believers can get what they want. I guess you just want to let little children suffer in egregious, unimaginable agony; otherwise you would be doing what your bible tells you to do.

 

Matthew 7:7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

 

Being a disciple of christ, can't you ask Jesus to let you heal all the terminally ill and suffering children?

 

Matthew 17:20 I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.

 

NOTHING is impossible. See you don't even have to be full of the spirit -- you have at least enough faith that equals a minuscule mustard seed --right? -- you know being an christian believer and all.

 

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

 

Come on! At least start at your local Pediatric Intensive Care Unit and ease ALL those innocent children from their massive suffering -- HEAL THEM!

 

Matthew 18:19 Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

 

I'm sure you have plenty of deluded christian believing friends and relatives who are disciples of christ -- you just need one more. Think of ALL the babies and children you can heal from their vile suffering. Maybe, you could help Ouroboros out. Why won't you help?

 

Matthew 21:21 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

 

You believe -- right, you're a christian believer? There are countless children in your area who are suffering in horrible reprehensible ways -- all you have to do is lay your hands on them -- you know if you are an christian believer (mustard seed of faith) and you believe ALL this bullshit in the bible is true).

 

John 14:12-14 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

 

ANYTHING? How about healing a new-born who has an inoperable brain tumor or a horribly deformed baby or a child who has terminal cancer, or a child who just had ALL of his arms and legs amputated? Either you CAN (like Jesus says) heal suffering, sick children or you are an uncompassionate, obscenely apathetic, morbidly negligent monster who is withholding the healing power Jesus gave to you.

 

Come on what are you waiting for -- you believe what the bible says.

 

But I suspect you will play your chiken-shit duck and cover games, ignoring my posts to protect your feeble-ass beliefs.

 

--S.

[StevoMuso]

But I suspect you will play your chiken-shit duck and cover games, ignoring my posts to protect your feeble-ass beliefs.

--S.

Brilliant post - all those Scriptures are difficult to ignore.

 

I would also like to add to all of this: healing rallies, TV evangelists, Katherine Kullman and all the "faith healers" who have followed. In ALL of these - not ONE SINGLE VERIFIED miracle - NOT ONE. But a bunch of Christians with the credulity of fishermen/farmers/children see a person jump out of a wheelchair and they all shout, "Gloooory" for the "miracle". Interview the person "healed" and find out they never arrived on a wheelchair (it was provided by the church) or it was merely the placebo effect etc etc. No, Christians don't want to interview the "healed" afterwards, or do some investigation to verify the "miracles" - that would show a lack of faith, and finding out the truth would destroy it.

 

So ... Christians hang onto your little fantasy ... but don't expect us to join your party until you can prove your claims.

[Sconnor]

But I suspect you will play your chiken-shit duck and cover games, ignoring my posts to protect your feeble-ass beliefs.

--S.

Brilliant post - all those Scriptures are difficult to ignore.

 

I would also like to add to all of this: healing rallies, TV evangelists, Katherine Kullman and all the "faith healers" who have followed. In ALL of these - not ONE SINGLE VERIFIED miracle - NOT ONE. But a bunch of Christians with the credulity of fishermen/farmers/children see a person jump out of a wheelchair and they all shout, "Gloooory" for the "miracle". Interview the person "healed" and find out they never arrived on a wheelchair (it was provided by the church) or it was merely the placebo effect etc etc. No, Christians don't want to interview the "healed" afterwards, or do some investigation to verify the "miracles" - that would show a lack of faith, and finding out the truth would destroy it.

 

So ... Christians hang onto your little fantasy ... but don't expect us to join your party until you can prove your claims.

 

I have a cousin who battled cancer and as a result he had two hip replacements. He's in a wheel chair for the rest of his life, but he could stand for for a few minutes.

 

Out of desperation he went to a faith healing church and the pastor prayed over him and told him to stand up so he did and the pastor shouted, "alleluia!!!!". Everyone around my cousin cheered and praised god for the miracle -- NOT knowing he could stand for minutes at a time.

 

So ALL those brain-dead christian assholes think a miracle happened and they perpetuate the bullshit.

 

It's ALL bullshit.

 

BTW my cousin can't even stand for minutes anymore.

 

--S.

[par4dcourse]

In my early teens at the church of god state camp-meeting, a yearly gathering at a large facility in Charlotte, I requested prayer for my diabetes during a "healing" service. I tried to believe it into reality, stopping my insulin and telling friends about the "miracle."

I damn near died withing 2 days, but I'm sure the people around me then still talk about the kid with the sugar that was healed by the grace of god.

[Phanta]

In my early teens at the church of god state camp-meeting, a yearly gathering at a large facility in Charlotte, I requested prayer for my diabetes during a "healing" service. I tried to believe it into reality, stopping my insulin and telling friends about the "miracle."

I damn near died withing 2 days, but I'm sure the people around me then still talk about the kid with the sugar that was healed by the grace of god.

 

I reckon you could have died of a diabetic coma within two days, during a healing service, and they'd still be talking about the kid with the sugar dependency healed by the grace of God. Those groups are filled with desperate people who will lie to themselves to their graves (and the graves of others) for an illusion of Jesus comfort.

 

Phanta

[bdp]

In my early teens at the church of god state camp-meeting, a yearly gathering at a large facility in Charlotte, I requested prayer for my diabetes during a "healing" service. I tried to believe it into reality, stopping my insulin and telling friends about the "miracle."

I damn near died withing 2 days, but I'm sure the people around me then still talk about the kid with the sugar that was healed by the grace of god.

 

I reckon you could have died of a diabetic coma within two days, during a healing service, and they'd still be talking about the kid with the sugar dependency healed by the grace of God. Those groups are filled with desperate people who will lie to themselves to their graves (and the graves of others) for an illusion of Jesus comfort.

 

Phanta

 

Sadly there are cases I've read about where a child did die after going off their insulin after receiving a 'healing.' These guys know they're not actually healing them because they always tell the subjects to check with their doctors after they receive their 'healing.' It's a pathetic scam.

[Brakeman]

..

BTW my cousin can't even stand for minutes anymore.

 

--S.

 

Gosh He can't stop sinning even for a few minutes anymore... What the hell does he do?

 

You know thats what some fundies would say.

[StevoMuso]

Did any of you read James Randi's book on the Faith Healers? It's brilliant - reveals the entire scam on all levels.

 

But according to our beloved Christian posters you have to "just believe" like a child. Or become "broken and humble" like a fisherman or farmer in order to "just believe". My answer: You Christians are dangerous liars who are endangering innocent people with this "healing" nonsense and it's time you STOP LYING.

[bdp]

Did any of you read James Randi's book on the Faith Healers? It's brilliant - reveals the entire scam on all levels.

 

Haven't read the book but I saw a TV special - sad that he could so thoroughly expose Peter Popoff for what he is and yet Popoff's still on TV begging for money every day, and apparently getting it.

[StevoMuso]

Haven't read the book but I saw a TV special - sad that he could so thoroughly expose Peter Popoff for what he is and yet Popoff's still on TV begging for money every day, and apparently getting it.

 

Popoff is still on TV????? Randi makes a complete ass of him in the book - very thorough. I'm gob-smacked that he still has any kind of ministry at all after that. Just how gullible can these Christians be???

 

BTW: like the new avatar bdp

[bdp]

 

 

BTW: like the new avatar bdp

 

I should look this image up again and credit the artist - sheer brilliance.

[Sconnor]

You know I have spent a couple of days thinking about this thread and this question, and I think Im going to have to concede that you are partly right Sconnor.

 

Partly right?

 

Everything you say adds up to the whatchamacallit? is it occams razor?

The obvious answer is the obvious answer....and yet I still hold on.

 

So now you say EVERYTHING. Which is it partly or everything?

 

I think Clay got it right in his answer to you. My faith does something good that i could never do without it, and to me it does boil down to the salvation of my soul.

 

Only so much. His response and your subsequent agreement does NOT need christianity. Many people and religions and cultures believe they will go to heaven. You and clay only delusionally believe you got the one true golden ticket to paradise.

 

I have an abstract belief in some sort of afterlife -- which doesn't include a personal christian god nor ANY of the doctrines of christianity -- but I have to admit -- my belief in an afterlife is little more than wishful thinking and unlike deluded christians I do not psychotically profess it to be truth.

 

This is iffy water I am treading here too and I know that. No-one can see a soul, no-one can had evidence for it either. Why is it that all the evidence and posts that I read in here add up to one thing, and yet I get another?

 

Ummmmm; what jumps to mind is you choose to believe.

 

The only answer I have is faith, as stupid and silly as it sounds. I have seen the evidence in my own life and others on how much Jesus can change you. Perhaps other religions do the same? I wouldnt know.

 

Whatever.......

 

You really have NO evidence that Jesus has ANYTHING to do with it.

 

Yes I hear all your arguments about the changing face of Jesus, and what different attribute people give him. Maybe at the end of the day I will just have to say you are all right.

 

That would be refreshingly honest.

 

However, I still love God, I love reading the Bible, and I do believe God is in my life leading and guiding me.

 

I hear the faint sound of a cuckoo bird, cukooing in the distance. You have NO evidence god intervenes in your life. It's NOTHING but a construct you imagined.

 

So, where does that leave us? I think these past 2 days have just hit me with really coming to a genuine understanding of the viewpoints of you all in here. So I really do hear you....Im just not willing to believe you.

 

If you could reason with christians there would be no christianity.

 

~continued~

[Sconnor]

Does that make sense?

 

Nope.

 

I still stand in my ground of belief in Jesus, but I do totally understand where you are all at.

 

If you truly understood EVERYTHING we are saying you would have little else except to forgo your imagined belief system.

 

It doesnt mean I think you choose not to believe on purpose, or any other reason. My faith has made me a far deeper person, than without it. I can only look back on my life as a believer and be thankful and grateful that I have come so far in growth and maturity, compared to who I was before. My faith has made my heart softer to God and being changed by his hand.

 

Again, FAITH is a brain malfunction, where you abandon ALL critical thinking skills and the voice of reason, where you willingly, choose to ignore and bury logic, steeping yourself in ignorance, so you can believe, in the unbelievable.

 

Faith is nothing more than suspending your disbelief, ON PURPOSE, so as to make it fit in your warped, fantasy-filled world-view. You deliberately choose to forgo the reasoning powers your mind possesses and feebly fill in the blanks with subjective flim-flam and bloated, stretched-thin rationalizations (to believe god intervenes on your behalf) all the while NEVER providing objective evidence for your god-concept. You would have us believe that FAITH is a virtue but it is not. It is not supernatural; it is not spiritual -- it is a CHOICE. A choice steeped in massive delusion -- a construct of your own making, where you believe you have the one and only truth. You CHOOSE to waive your intellectual faculties and throw reasoning out the door, while convincing yourself by pretending that your irrational and insane interpretive claims are perfectly valid.

 

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality." -- George Bernard Shaw

 

--S.

[Brakeman]

oooh good Shaw quote Sconnor!

[Sconnor]

BTW -- where did OC scurry off to? He has some 'splainin' to do............

 

OCeeeeeeeeee...wherrrrrrrre'd yaaaaaa gooooooo?

 

I'm still waiting for you to provide objective evidence that christ performed miracles and/or has any reference in reality.

 

Waiting...............

 

You can add this to your list of outlandish claims you have yet to provide objective evidence for.

 

Also my post #584 and particularly post #579 still need to be addressed.

 

Still patiently waiting...................

 

--S.

[Phanta]

Did any of you read James Randi's book on the Faith Healers? It's brilliant - reveals the entire scam on all levels.

 

Haven't read the book but I saw a TV special - sad that he could so thoroughly expose Peter Popoff for what he is and yet Popoff's still on TV begging for money every day, and apparently getting it.

 

People want to believe so bad. Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

Many years ago, before I met the man (a cool experience), I read a lot of James Randi's posts on his jref site, where he stated that of all the charlatans out there, no one believed so deeply in their gift as the dowser.

 

These are persons who are genuinely, thoroughly, self-deceived. In only two instances one in Australia and the other in the U.K. did I ever encounter any cheating being tried by dowsers.

 

One after another came to him with a special genuineness, and many were crushed and miffed when the tests failed. They believed! They had evidence!

 

"The discouraging fact is that no dowser is ever convinced, as a result of proper double-blind testing, that they cannot dowse. Their need to believe is so strong and so ingrained, that they will refuse to accept any quality and/or quantity of good evidence. They have adopted a philosophy that shields them against reality. "

 

Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

Phanta