On Changing Minds

[agnosticator]

Fools for Christ, untie!

There, I fixed it to sound better.

Haha! I actually went back to look at my post (immediately after I clicked on it)because I thought I had mistakenly spelled it like that!

[Antlerman]

Salvation is being moved into reconciliation, unity, ONENESS.

And that's exactly what I felt after my de-conversion.

 

 

I have had many such experiences since my deconversion as well. My "soul" has felt unburdened and free!

 

Hallelujah?

 

 

I have thought about what was wrong with me as a believer, and cognitive dissonance played a large role. But more than that, my mind was fractionated. Clashing thoughts and different worlds (biblical and real time) would ping pong back and forth within my mind. I felt disjointed. It wasn't until I realized I was free from the religion's grip, that I felt unity within and unified without. Finally harmonized within, and in harmony and at One with Nature and reality. I don't find many people who experience this.

This is why I say that you can't be spiritually fulfilled if you have cut off your reason. To play games with your brain in order to keep a system of belief protected denies you access to your own spirit. I'll never forget the moment a number of years back where I severed that last last hold the mythical God held in a position in the back of my mind. It wasn't a sense of loss I felt, but incredible liberation of spirit! The world was free from needing to be concerned about some Book-Keeper in the Sky, and what I saw was the incredible Beauty and Power of life I had longed for. Nature was beyond imagination.

 

I've at this point found a legitimate place for seeing "God" in all that for me now, for involved reasons, which I flesh out frequently for myself here, but it's as a completeness to all of those things that needed to be freed from the mythological system of our past into this stage of truth. You could call it "God's God", if you wish . I couldn't get here by staying under than ceiling. I often say 'Salvation is freedom from religion'. That's what I mean by it. How can we grow if told 'this far and no further'. It's like sticking my head out from the clouds in the heights of an infinite mountain. Anything that moves us forward is to be embraced. Anything that holds us back should be challenged in ourselves. It's not about what you believe, it's about who you become.

[agnosticator]

I've at this point found a legitimate place for seeing "God" in all that for me now, for involved reasons, which I flesh out frequently for myself here, but it's as a completeness to all of those things that needed to be freed from the mythological system of our past into this stage of truth. You could call it "God's God", if you wish .

 

I call it "all that is".

 

 

It's not about what you believe, it's about who you become.

 

I find that "who I become" is fueled by learning, understanding, empathizing, and connecting. Unless someone really pisses me off! Then I am fueled by wrath and vengeance.

 

Actually, the longer I live, the more I value and find completeness in simple things. The outdoors, animals, people's companionship, good food, etc.,and of course, good music. I also embrace the fact that life is change. I used to get a bit depressed by the winter weather and dark days, but those feelings have disappeared. I actually enjoy them now. I also realize nothing stays the same for long . I fully appreciate life and don't expect nature to bow to my wishes. It's like accepting a person with all their flaws, because you love them.

[par4dcourse]

Given your 3 points it seems my post was very reasonable, and that your last sentence was a non-sequitur.

 

I made no claims, you did.

[StevoMuso]

I'll never forget the moment a number of years back where I severed that last last hold the mythical God held in a position in the back of my mind. It wasn't a sense of loss I felt, but incredible liberation of spirit! The world was free from needing to be concerned about some Book-Keeper in the Sky, and what I saw was the incredible Beauty and Power of life I had longed for. Nature was beyond imagination.

Brilliantly put Antlerman - you have verbalized in one concise paragraph the exact feeling I had on the 14th of November 1996, the day I finally became an atheist (I remember the date coz it was my daughter's 8th birthday). It was like that little god-paradigm had lodged itself in the back of my mind somewhere, almost invisible to me, like a mental parasite. When that nasty bugger was discovered and removed it was like something "popped" in my mind and I could see clearly for the first time in my life. A flood of questions were answered in an instant and it felt as if a huge burden had been removed from my shoulders.

 

Also what you said about the Book-Keeper/Beauty & Power of life/nature ... exactly like that - stunning post bro.

[StevoMuso]

Actually, the longer I live, the more I value and find completeness in simple things. The outdoors, animals, people's companionship, good food, etc.,and of course, good music. I also embrace the fact that life is change. I used to get a bit depressed by the winter weather and dark days, but those feelings have disappeared. I actually enjoy them now. I also realize nothing stays the same for long . I fully appreciate life and don't expect nature to bow to my wishes. It's like accepting a person with all their flaws, because you love them.

 

Yes - that's brilliant. And in all of this atheism is not really all that relevant. I play my music (I'm a muso by profession), read, write, enjoy my kids and girlfriend and other close friends etc. And it's these things that define me as an individual, not my atheism. Atheism is something I "don't do" if you know what I mean. It's not a defining feature of my life.

[Legion]

Atheism is something I "don't do" if you know what I mean. It's not a defining feature of my life.

I know exactly what you mean Stevo.

[agnosticator]

Yes - that's brilliant. And in all of this atheism is not really all that relevant. I play my music (I'm a muso by profession), read, write, enjoy my kids and girlfriend and other close friends etc. And it's these things that define me as an individual, not my atheism. Atheism is something I "don't do" if you know what I mean. It's not a defining feature of my life.

 

I never met a Christian that gets this. They are too busy thinking about salvation and heaven, to see anything else as possibly having depth and satisfaction. To them, all is vanity but Christianity. And that rhymes!

 

By the way, I am a "muso" also, as is A-Man.

[Antlerman]

I've at this point found a legitimate place for seeing "God" in all that for me now, for involved reasons, which I flesh out frequently for myself here, but it's as a completeness to all of those things that needed to be freed from the mythological system of our past into this stage of truth. You could call it "God's God", if you wish .

 

I call it "all that is".

 

 

It's not about what you believe, it's about who you become.

 

I find that "who I become" is fueled by learning, understanding, empathizing, and connecting. Unless someone really pisses me off! Then I am fueled by wrath and vengeance.

 

Actually, the longer I live, the more I value and find completeness in simple things. The outdoors, animals, people's companionship, good food, etc.,and of course, good music. I also embrace the fact that life is change. I used to get a bit depressed by the winter weather and dark days, but those feelings have disappeared. I actually enjoy them now. I also realize nothing stays the same for long . I fully appreciate life and don't expect nature to bow to my wishes. It's like accepting a person with all their flaws, because you love them.

I think the best analogy I have is that of the willow tree. It's strength is in it ability to bend with the wind. It's not weak by any means, but stronger than the oak which will shatter when struck hard enough.

 

All the rest you say, I think you would very much enjoy an afternoon in my home. My home is filled with music at all times, with a wonderful rich sounds everywhere. My yard is a growing garden I evolve each year with seating under a great shade tree, where I sit and breathe in the breeze and the sky into my soul and wonder of the Wonder and Beauty of Life. I find it important to embrace life with love and respect in all things, as best I can remain in the now. It's never one thing, but all things. In it we find our center, and our ground, our source. It cannot be limited by reason, but reason becomes the colors and shades we paint the pictures of it with in our living it. It's freedom.

 

I'll never forget the moment a number of years back where I severed that last last hold the mythical God held in a position in the back of my mind. It wasn't a sense of loss I felt, but incredible liberation of spirit! The world was free from needing to be concerned about some Book-Keeper in the Sky, and what I saw was the incredible Beauty and Power of life I had longed for. Nature was beyond imagination.

Brilliantly put Antlerman - you have verbalized in one concise paragraph the exact feeling I had on the 14th of November 1996, the day I finally became an atheist (I remember the date coz it was my daughter's 8th birthday). It was like that little god-paradigm had lodged itself in the back of my mind somewhere, almost invisible to me, like a mental parasite. When that nasty bugger was discovered and removed it was like something "popped" in my mind and I could see clearly for the first time in my life. A flood of questions were answered in an instant and it felt as if a huge burden had been removed from my shoulders.

 

Also what you said about the Book-Keeper/Beauty & Power of life/nature ... exactly like that - stunning post bro.

Wow, thank you. Very kind words. It makes me pleased. I'm happy for that.

[Shyone]

Yes - that's brilliant. And in all of this atheism is not really all that relevant. I play my music (I'm a muso by profession), read, write, enjoy my kids and girlfriend and other close friends etc. And it's these things that define me as an individual, not my atheism. Atheism is something I "don't do" if you know what I mean. It's not a defining feature of my life.

 

I never met a Christian that gets this. They are too busy thinking about salvation and heaven, to see anything else as possibly having depth and satisfaction. To them, all is vanity but Christianity. And that rhymes!

 

By the way, I am a "muso" also, as is A-Man.

This is it. This is what it's all about. And you're right, it's not something that you can learn or force onto others. It just happens. I'm going to stick Agnosticator's post back here:

 

Actually, the longer I live, the more I value and find completeness in simple things. The outdoors, animals, people's companionship, good food, etc.,and of course, good music. I also embrace the fact that life is change. I used to get a bit depressed by the winter weather and dark days, but those feelings have disappeared. I actually enjoy them now. I also realize nothing stays the same for long . I fully appreciate life and don't expect nature to bow to my wishes. It's like accepting a person with all their flaws, because you love them.

 

Life is change. Inevitable and inexorable change. For better or worse, till death do us part.

[StevoMuso]

I never met a Christian that gets this. They are too busy thinking about salvation and heaven, to see anything else as possibly having depth and satisfaction. To them, all is vanity but Christianity. And that rhymes!

Same here in darkest Africa - I think it's because their Christianity defines them as individuals so they are unable to grasp the concept that not-being-a-Christian doesn't define us.

By the way, I am a "muso" also, as is A-Man.

That is waaaay cool - I'm blown away. I did my B.Mus (performers) on trombone in the early 80s and worked in symphony orchestras and military bands until the new government came into power in 1994 (remember when the old SA government removed all the Apartheid legislation and the new ANC government took over?). They closed down all the professional orchestras including the South African National Symphony Orch because it was regarded as "white" music - we all lost our jobs overnight. Luckily I also play guitar (sort of Joe Pass chord-melody jazz style) and now I make my living playing in restaurants and doing weddings/corporates etc. Great to meet you guys - mmm, fellow muso's and fellow atheists - really megga-chuffed to hear this

[bdp]

Stevo, I cannot tell you how jealous I am that you get to make a living in music - if only... *sigh*

[agnosticator]

I think the best analogy I have is that of the willow tree. It's strength is in it ability to bend with the wind. It's not weak by any means, but stronger than the oak which will shatter when struck hard enough.

 

All the rest you say, I think you would very much enjoy an afternoon in my home. My home is filled with music at all times, with a wonderful rich sounds everywhere. My yard is a growing garden I evolve each year with seating under a great shade tree, where I sit and breathe in the breeze and the sky into my soul and wonder of the Wonder and Beauty of Life. I find it important to embrace life with love and respect in all things, as best I can remain in the now. It's never one thing, but all things. In it we find our center, and our ground, our source. It cannot be limited by reason, but reason becomes the colors and shades we paint the pictures of it with in our living it. It's freedom.

 

The bolded is my feelings put to words. Yes, your home sounds great! I bet your music is rich due to being played on LP's, with more depth, and those lows and highs shining through. CD's can't reproduce them.

[agnosticator]

That is waaaay cool - I'm blown away. I did my B.Mus (performers) on trombone in the early 80s and worked in symphony orchestras and military bands until the new government came into power in 1994 (remember when the old SA government removed all the Apartheid legislation and the new ANC government took over?). They closed down all the professional orchestras including the South African National Symphony Orch because it was regarded as "white" music - we all lost our jobs overnight. Luckily I also play guitar (sort of Joe Pass chord-melody jazz style) and now I make my living playing in restaurants and doing weddings/corporates etc. Great to meet you guys - mmm, fellow muso's and fellow atheists - really megga-chuffed to hear this

 

I don't believe this! I played jazz trombone professionally out of Chicago, until the jobs dwindled. Then I taught, and am now just composing /arranging some. Yours is a frustrating story. Music should be valued for what it is. I'm glad to hear you have gigs that pay enough to live on. May the force of John McLaughlin be with you!

[StevoMuso]

Stevo, I cannot tell you how jealous I am that you get to make a living in music - if only... *sigh*

Aah thanks bdp bro. In South Africa though music is not for the faint-hearted and we don't make very much money. There is that old joke, "What's the diffs between a musician and a pizza? Pizza can feed a family of four." Snigger bwuahahah (laughter ala Terry Pratchett) but in SA it's no joke. Having lost our salaried jobs as classical musicians there are many muso's like me who are technically unemployed. Gigs are fickle - they come and go - and a huge sporting event like the world cup can cause most of the gigs to be cancelled (during the last world cup I lost an income of about R 24,000 (about R8 to the $US) over the six-week event and had to live on a building site for two months. This is one of the reasons I published my book on atheism in the hopes it could provide residual income.

 

Trust me to choose the two professions that don't pay particularly well - writing and music.

 

This said I would have it no other way - I feel enormously privileged to make my primary living in music, and yes, it's a lot of fun (one of my bands is being flown by Lear-jet to a mining town in the Northern Cape next week, hehe, and you should check my singer - Lebanese and breath-takingly gorgeous).

[Antlerman]

OMG, this is so incredible! Joe Pass... ahhhh... My favorite LP is Joe Pass and Ella, Take Love Easy, on the Verve label. I also play Trombone, but that's not my main instrument. Piano is. Although it is not as a living (I am in technology). It's more about an expression of existential truth, for me. Finding a voice to respond to the World, if you will. This is so cool...

[StevoMuso]

I don't believe this! I played jazz trombone professionally out of Chicago, until the jobs dwindled. Then I taught, and am now just composing /arranging some. Yours is a frustrating story. Music should be valued for what it is. I'm glad to hear you have gigs that pay enough to live on. May the force of John McLaughlin be with you!

Dude - that's sooo cool. In your avatar you even LOOK like a trombone player (hehe). I was fortunate to study under the great trombone dictation Bob Gillespie - an American who lived in SA for a while (until 1994 when we all lost our jobs) but who played (I think) for the Chicago Phil at some point.

 

To stick to the OP subject though, it's great to be fulfulled as normal humans (well, as "normal" as trombone players and muso's can be), doing things that make ourselves and those around us happy, without the burden and mind-blinding God-virus in the back of our minds.

 

I think we just had a "moment" here. These are precious posts to me out here behind the Zion Curtain and to "feel-da-lerv" all the way around the world. This is probably one of the best thread/post moments I've had on any forum - so thanks to you all (it's 4.00 a.m. here and I'm still typing away on my computer - ).

[agnosticator]

Having lost our salaried jobs as classical musicere are many muso's like me who are technically unemployed. Gigs are fickle - they come and go - and a huge sporting event like the world cup can cause most of the gigs to be cancelled (during the last world cup I lost an income of about R 24,000 (about R8 to the $US) over the six-week event and had to live on a building site for two months. This is one of the reasons I published my book on atheism in the hopes it could provide residual income.

 

Trust me to choose the two professions that don't pay particularly well - writing and music.

 

People don't realize how hard it is for a musician, though your case is especially difficult. More power to ya!

 

This said I would have it no other way - I feel enormously privileged to make my primary living in music,...

 

Yeah, most people can't say that they love their jobs. I wouldn't take back those years of performance and fluctuating pay:HaHa: for anything.

[Antlerman]

I think we just had a "moment" here. These are precious posts to me out here behind the Zion Curtain and to "feel-da-lerv" all the way around the world. This is probably one of the best thread/post moments I've had on any forum - so thanks to you all (it's 4.00 a.m. here and I'm still typing away on my computer - ).

Wow, after 6000 posts here, I'll have to agree with you here. Wow...

[Phanta]

2Pe 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;

 

2Pe 1:6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;

 

2Pe 1:7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.

 

End...what's "godliness" mean in this list?

 

Phanta

Judging from some of the questions you ask I would like to suggest you read the New Testament. It would give you a better ground from which to converse this subject.

 

A sensible suggestion. However, my mind wanders hopelessly when attempt. The writing style doesn't appeal, doesn't hook me. Short passages, though, I'll look at if they are interesting.

 

Thanks anyway,

Phanta

[agnosticator]

Dude - that's sooo cool. In your avatar you even LOOK like a trombone player (hehe). I was fortunate to study under the great trombone dictation Bob Gillespie - an American who lived in SA for a while (until 1994 when we all lost our jobs) but who played (I think) for the Chicago Phil at some point.

 

I have hear his name, but my memory sucks. I studied under Bill Porter (Chicago jazz trombonist) and various others along the way. Alot of talented guys around there that made me practice!

 

To stick to the OP subject though, it's great to be fulfulled as normal humans (well, as "normal" as trombone players and muso's can be), doing things that make ourselves and those around us happy, without the burden and mind-blinding God-virus in the back of our minds.

 

I think we just had a "moment" here. These are precious posts to me out here behind the Zion Curtain and to "feel-da-lerv" all the way around the world. This is probably one of the best thread/post moments I've had on any forum - so thanks to you all (it's 4.00 a.m. here and I'm still typing away on my computer - ).

 

I agree, and am thankful you came to the site! By the way, Joe Pass is a legend to emulate alright!

[StevoMuso]

OMG, this is so incredible! Joe Pass... ahhhh... My favorite LP is Joe Pass and Ella, Take Love Easy, on the Verve label. I also play Trombone, but that's not my main instrument. Piano is. Although it is not as a living (I am in technology). It's more about an expression of existential truth, for me. Finding a voice to respond to the World, if you will. This is so cool...

OMG (or one of my favourite Bender quotes from Futurama, Oh your God!!!)

Another Bone-head - what are the odds? In South Africa there are many people attending the gigs who think my horn is a saxophone/trumpet/bugle. The amount of musical ignorance is almost as bad as the amount of religious credulity (79% of the population claim to be fundamental Christians).

 

I studied jazz guitar under Tony Russell for many years as my hobby. You see, trombone was my job and guitar was my hobby. To this day I say the trombone is my wife (got to play her, it's the job) and the guitar is my mistress (want to play her, it's where the passion lies).

 

My all-time guitar hero is Lee Ritenour, and it is one of my life-dreams to see him perform live. Unfortunately out here in the sticks we don't get to see that many great celebs. Fourplay did 2 performances here a while ago. I bought a ticket but gave it to a friend when I found out that Lee would be replaced by Larry Carlton for the tour (Larry's great but not enough for me to cancel my own gig and spend all my money on a ticket).

 

And yes - the great Joe Pass - I've modeled my style on his and even get to play this style on my Sunday jazz gigs (the rest of the time I play the usual commercial stuff our customers demand).

[StevoMuso]

Shit - it's 4.30 a.m. and I'm starting to see double. I guess we got ever-so-slightly off topic for a moment there, but WHAT a moment. Thanks guys - that was awesome.

[Phanta]

Eusebeia, used in the New Testament to express the idea of inner piety, spiritual maturity, or godliness.

 

Nope, still doesn't make sense.

 

Here's one of the problems with godliness as used in the New Testament. It implies that the godly person has something that is more than simply morality, goodness, kindness or generosity. Specifically, something special about Christians:

 

So - how can you tell when true spirituality and maturity are present? Or, how do you know the difference between a godly man and one who is merely well educated and in control of himself? A carnal believer, the novice Christian, can be moral, can use the right vocabulary, can wear a suit and carry a Bible. He can fool some of the people some of the time.

 

But the godly believer is known by "his fruits" - the fruit of the Holy Spirit - things that an unbeliever, or the carnal believer, cannot produce. Godliness is produced in the life of a Christian who is both learning doctrine and growing thereby through edification.

 

Sounds like inner transformation as opposed to surface behaviors. Internalization. No?

 

Phanta

[bdp]

 

But the godly believer is known by "his fruits" - the fruit of the Holy Spirit - things that an unbeliever, or the carnal believer, cannot produce.

 

 

I've never seen any such thing, even in what I thought were the finest Christians. OC sure isn't showing me anything special.