On Changing Minds

[OrdinaryClay]

Let me get this straight. You then agree that it is our moral obligation to tell people about the consequences of their actions, and to warn others about the consequences of following in their path. Correct? You also agree that in any circumstances a person committing hateful acts is culpable for their own actions?

 

Almost. What is true is that I was not addressing either of these topics--1) moral obligation to warn or 2) culpability for actions-- in my posts. I think you are beginning to understand that my posts have nothing to do with either of these topics. I'd like to affirm that this is true and leave it at that.

How "almost"? What do you agree with and what don't you agree with?

 

One can not ignore these topics when weighting what is said in the Chapter (2 Peter 2) because these subjects are fundamental to the understanding of any language used in the passage.

[Phanta]

"I'm not going to show him grace and relinquish my need to change him because he doesn't show me grace and does not relinquish his need to change me." Hence my question, in full now for clarity, "Who shows grace and relinquishes the need to change the other first?"

Oh no, I feel no need to try and change End's mind. If he wants to cling to a dying religion that's his prerogative.

 

Ok. Thank you for the clarification.

 

For me, the divide arises from the ever present feeling of his need to change me a certain way. It underlies our every interaction. In fact, I feel it with most Christians, partly because it's a thing people tend to do. Unfortunately, because the Bible charges them earnestly to pursue this broken path, it leaves me with an expectation of it from all of them, and so little hope for much real connection. There are a few exceptions in my life, and indeed, they do not ever try to direct change in me. They also had to work to gain my trust against my ingrained expectation from repeated experiences built up over the years with their fellows in faith.

 

See, this is it. This is near to where I was hoping this thread would go. As I told one of my friends once... The fundamental flaw of humanity, as I see it, is that we are quick to try and control, but slow to try and understand.

 

I agree. We are kindred spirits in many ways, Legion, but this is our strongest.

 

For my part, I believe the way to the light is to focus on understanding (or at least loving boundaries where understanding is too challenging) while relinquishing the need to direct change (i.e. control), but I struggle to get my behavior in line with this belief. Nevertheless, it has been rewarding when I succeed! Surrounding myself with kindred spirits in this has been vital in the practice. It's so different from my early environs and company.

 

Phanta

[Guest end3]

Well so much for grace. You damned me as a false prophet using your sacred text as a weapon of your ego. To me, if there is a definition of sin and blasphemy, you did it. Then you talk about Grace and Compassion as being something that is deserved, to be earned and not a state of being to be freely offered through you as a result of a spiritual heart. I challenge you on that, and rightly state you in fact are demonstrating a lack of it, to which you respond saying "Fuck you", and then calling me a "Buffoon".

 

Idiot, where did you read someone has to deserve grace.

 

I could have said Fuck You! to using the Bible against me and judging me a false prophet, as though you understood things well enough to make that damnation of me personally - which you most definitely do not as is clearly demonstrated by you never accurately stating what I actually believe, think, and feel. You fail. You fail to comprehend, and then pass judgment like a true religionist, replacing dogma for Grace, for Love, for Compassion, for Spirit. You condemn yourself.

 

You fail to see my position, opting for your definition, which, btw, IS NOT THE SAME THING, as you reject the very tenants that make it Christianity.

 

My personal feelings are that you perceive someone like me far more a threat to your idols than any skeptic ever could. It's easy to rebuff someone who denies your beliefs. It's another thing to take someone like me treading into your temple of sacred idols. That's how I took your flinging Bible judgments at me like it were dog shit. Its about you. It's about your shortcomings and your poor reactions to it. You started out embracing Spirit, but now you sound more like an idol worshiper who has fallen from grace.

 

What is it that you don't understand about Christ SAVING the lost. That is why we hold Christ in such a high regard, as He does it better than we, me specifically....so, no shit, that't the whole point, about me finding that resource for others.

 

Take responsibility. It's your first sacred duty.

 

Confrontation is not taking responsibility?

[Phanta]

Let me get this straight. You then agree that it is our moral obligation to tell people about the consequences of their actions, and to warn others about the consequences of following in their path. Correct? You also agree that in any circumstances a person committing hateful acts is culpable for their own actions?

 

Almost. What is true is that I was not addressing either of these topics--1) moral obligation to warn or 2) culpability for actions-- in my posts. I think you are beginning to understand that my posts have nothing to do with either of these topics. I'd like to affirm that this is true and leave it at that.

How "almost"?

 

I clarify: You "almost" understand my position.

 

My stated position is one of concern regarding the consequences of the author's use of dehumanizing language to describe a group of people in that passage. This is all I have spoken of.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

What is it that you don't understand about Christ SAVING the lost. That is why we hold Christ in such a high regard, as He does it better than we, me specifically....so, no shit, that't the whole point, about me finding that resource for others.

 

Are you saying to us, then, "You need compassion and love. I can't show you compassion and love, but you can get it from Jesus instead"?

 

Phanta

[Legion]

Idiot,....

 

... you reject the very tenants that make it Christianity.

The word here should be "tenets".

 

Tenet - a principle, belief, or doctrine generally held to be true.

 

Tenant - a person or group that rents and occupies land, a house, an office, or the like, from another for a period of time.

[OrdinaryClay]

Let me get this straight. You then agree that it is our moral obligation to tell people about the consequences of their actions, and to warn others about the consequences of following in their path. Correct? You also agree that in any circumstances a person committing hateful acts is culpable for their own actions?

 

Almost. What is true is that I was not addressing either of these topics--1) moral obligation to warn or 2) culpability for actions-- in my posts. I think you are beginning to understand that my posts have nothing to do with either of these topics. I'd like to affirm that this is true and leave it at that.

How "almost"?

 

I clarify: You "almost" understand my position.

Your response "almost" was under the section in bold above. It would only seem logical that your response "almost" was in reference to my questions in bold. I've been answering many questions you have asked. I thought maybe you might be willing to answer some also. If your response "almost" was in regards to something else then I guess I re-ask the questions above since "almost" does not apply.

[par4dcourse]

This thread is following normal developement parameters. No one has changed anyone's opinion, and it's degrading into a pissing contest. OC is a master contortionist, and will not be pinned. End is building up god points. And life on ex-c goes on.

 

Legion, I bet when you started this topic you never expected 20 something pages of replies!

[Legion]

And life on ex-c goes on.

Yeah, pretty much Par.

 

Legion, I bet when you started this topic you never expected 20 something pages of replies!

That would be a sound bet. I did not expect it. But now that I think about it, it is the elephant in the room.

[OrdinaryClay]

For my part, I believe the way to the light is to focus on understanding (or at least loving boundaries where understanding is too challenging) while relinquishing the need to direct change (i.e. control), but I struggle to get my behavior in line with this belief. Nevertheless, it has been rewarding when I succeed! Surrounding myself with kindred spirits in this has been vital in the practice. It's so different from my early environs and company.

 

Phanta

What "light" is this? Can you describe what this "light" is?

[Guest end3]

What is it that you don't understand about Christ SAVING the lost. That is why we hold Christ in such a high regard, as He does it better than we, me specifically....so, no shit, that't the whole point, about me finding that resource for others.

 

Are you saying to us, then, "You need compassion and love. I can't show you compassion and love, but you can get it from Jesus instead"?

 

Phanta

 

We can show each other love to the limit of our imperfection/salvation relationship. We are moving towards an Ideal. AM says he is fully capable of living the Ideal at any time, giving everyone what they need in return, and I am saying that we are deficient and are moving towards that by what God gives to us in the ongoing relationship with Christ that increases our wisdom through the Holy Spirit and the Bible....and of course creation is evidence to me as well.

[bdp]

The supernatural is detectable

 

Bullshit - only charlatans claim to be able to detect the supernatural. You're really, really depressing in your idiocy.

[bdp]

Telling someone they are wrong and will suffer consequences is the right thing to do.

 

We aren't 'wrong' for not sharing your delusion. Believe what you believe, I don't care, but don't shove your dogma in my face if I don't want it. You're only doing it to cover your own ass anyway, you don't honestly give two shits about me.

[bdp]

 

 

What is it that you don't understand about Christ SAVING the lost.

 

There are no lost.

[Guest end3]

Idiot,....

 

... you reject the very tenants that make it Christianity.

The word here should be "tenets".

 

Tenet - a principle, belief, or doctrine generally held to be true.

 

Tenant - a person or group that rents and occupies land, a house, an office, or the like, from another for a period of time.

 

thanks, tenet, tenant...it's all the same here in West Texas....refer to Foxworthy's redneck dictionary.

[chefranden]

What is it that you don't understand about Christ SAVING the lost. That is why we hold Christ in such a high regard, as He does it better than we, me specifically....so, no shit, that't the whole point, about me finding that resource for others.

 

I've always found that a compass is the best tool for getting un-lost. But I suppose that you don't mean lost like that. When I loose my keys, my wife can usually find them. She saves the lost keys.

 

God lost his humans and Jesus found them for him? God should put more thought into where he puts his humans down, then they wouldn't be lost in the first place -- that's what my wife tells me when I get all bent outta shape over lost keys.

[Guest end3]

What is it that you don't understand about Christ SAVING the lost. That is why we hold Christ in such a high regard, as He does it better than we, me specifically....so, no shit, that't the whole point, about me finding that resource for others.

 

I've always found that a compass is the best tool for getting un-lost. But I suppose that you don't mean lost like that. When I loose my keys, my wife can usually find them. She saves the lost keys.

 

God lost his humans and Jesus found them for him? God should put more thought into where he puts his humans down, then they wouldn't be lost in the first place -- that's what my wife tells me when I get all bent outta shape over lost keys.

 

 

LOL....Ask any wife if a man will willingly pull the compass out.....a great analogy for the submit/non-submit message of the Bible. (sorry, I couldn't resist)

[Phanta]

Let me get this straight. You then agree that it is our moral obligation to tell people about the consequences of their actions, and to warn others about the consequences of following in their path. Correct? You also agree that in any circumstances a person committing hateful acts is culpable for their own actions?

 

Almost. What is true is that I was not addressing either of these topics--1) moral obligation to warn or 2) culpability for actions-- in my posts. I think you are beginning to understand that my posts have nothing to do with either of these topics. I'd like to affirm that this is true and leave it at that.

How "almost"?

 

I clarify: You "almost" understand my position.

Your response "almost" was under the section in bold above. It would only seem logical that your response "almost" was in reference to my questions in bold.

 

It sure would. I wasn't really clear, was I? That's why I clarified in the next post: "Almost" means "You almost understand my position."

 

I've been answering many questions you have asked. I thought maybe you might be willing to answer some also. If your response "almost" was in regards to something else then I guess I re-ask the questions above since "almost" does not apply.

 

You said you wanted to get my position straight, and made three comments:

 

1 about my understanding of moral obligation to warn

2 about responsibility for actions

3 about me having an issue with the language used

 

You asked me to affirm that was my position.

 

I said "Almost": You almost reflected back to me my position. #3 is a correct reflection of my position. I DID NOT ADDRESS #1 and #2 in my argument; you added them to my argument. Where you fell short in reflecting my position back to me is that you added a lot of other stuff to my position.

 

To recap: by "Almost" I meant "You almost understand my position." I am not comfortable moving forward communicating with you until you accept this is what I meant by "Almost" and demonstrate actual understanding of my position as I have stated it.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

For my part, I believe the way to the light is to focus on understanding (or at least loving boundaries where understanding is too challenging) while relinquishing the need to direct change (i.e. control), but I struggle to get my behavior in line with this belief. Nevertheless, it has been rewarding when I succeed! Surrounding myself with kindred spirits in this has been vital in the practice. It's so different from my early environs and company.

 

Phanta

What "light" is this? Can you describe what this "light" is?

 

Things working better. Freer, genuine, more easeful. Light as in both brighter and less heavy.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

What is it that you don't understand about Christ SAVING the lost. That is why we hold Christ in such a high regard, as He does it better than we, me specifically....so, no shit, that't the whole point, about me finding that resource for others.

 

Are you saying to us, then, "You need compassion and love. I can't show you compassion and love, but you can get it from Jesus instead"?

 

Phanta

 

We can show each other love to the limit of our imperfection/salvation relationship. We are moving towards an Ideal. AM says he is fully capable of living the Ideal at any time, giving everyone what they need in return, and I am saying that we are deficient and are moving towards that by what God gives to us in the ongoing relationship with Christ that increases our wisdom through the Holy Spirit and the Bible....and of course creation is evidence to me as well.

 

Ok, so in the first post here, you are finding that resource--love--in yourself through Christ, so you can give love to others.

 

Yes?

 

Phanta

[OrdinaryClay]

Let me get this straight. You then agree that it is our moral obligation to tell people about the consequences of their actions, and to warn others about the consequences of following in their path. Correct? You also agree that in any circumstances a person committing hateful acts is culpable for their own actions?

 

Almost. What is true is that I was not addressing either of these topics--1) moral obligation to warn or 2) culpability for actions-- in my posts. I think you are beginning to understand that my posts have nothing to do with either of these topics. I'd like to affirm that this is true and leave it at that.

How "almost"?

 

I clarify: You "almost" understand my position.

Your response "almost" was under the section in bold above. It would only seem logical that your response "almost" was in reference to my questions in bold.

 

It sure would. I wasn't really clear, was I? That's why I clarified in the next post: "Almost" means "You almost understand my position."

 

I've been answering many questions you have asked. I thought maybe you might be willing to answer some also. If your response "almost" was in regards to something else then I guess I re-ask the questions above since "almost" does not apply.

 

You said you wanted to get my position straight, and made three comments:

 

1 about my understanding of moral obligation to warn

2 about responsibility for actions

3 about me having an issue with the language used

 

You asked me to affirm that was my position.

 

I said "Almost": You almost reflected back to me my position. #3 is a correct reflection of my position. I DID NOT ADDRESS #1 and #2 in my argument; you added them to my argument. Where you fell short in reflecting my position back to me is that you added a lot of other stuff to my position.

 

To recap: by "Almost" I meant "You almost understand my position." I am not comfortable moving forward communicating with you until you accept this is what I meant by "Almost" and demonstrate actual understanding of my position as I have stated it.

 

Phanta

Okay, I see, well I think we almost have this cleared up. I understand all you want to talk about is item #3. I asked if you would answer some of my questions regarding #1 and #2. This seems like a reasonable request given my polite willingness to entertain your sussing. I assume your not the only one who can suss.

[par4dcourse]

What is it that you don't understand about Christ SAVING the lost. That is why we hold Christ in such a high regard, as He does it better than we, me specifically....so, no shit, that't the whole point, about me finding that resource for others.

 

I've always found that a compass is the best tool for getting un-lost. But I suppose that you don't mean lost like that. When I loose my keys, my wife can usually find them. She saves the lost keys.

 

God lost his humans and Jesus found them for him? God should put more thought into where he puts his humans down, then they wouldn't be lost in the first place -- that's what my wife tells me when I get all bent outta shape over lost keys.

 

And that natural segue is to finding jay-zus, who is apparently somehow lost too.

[Guest end3]

What is it that you don't understand about Christ SAVING the lost. That is why we hold Christ in such a high regard, as He does it better than we, me specifically....so, no shit, that't the whole point, about me finding that resource for others.

 

Are you saying to us, then, "You need compassion and love. I can't show you compassion and love, but you can get it from Jesus instead"?

 

Phanta

 

We can show each other love to the limit of our imperfection/salvation relationship. We are moving towards an Ideal. AM says he is fully capable of living the Ideal at any time, giving everyone what they need in return, and I am saying that we are deficient and are moving towards that by what God gives to us in the ongoing relationship with Christ that increases our wisdom through the Holy Spirit and the Bible....and of course creation is evidence to me as well.

 

Ok, so in the first post here, you are finding that resource--love--in yourself through Christ, so you can give love to others.

 

Yes?

 

Phanta

 

yes, emphasis on "through Christ".

[OrdinaryClay]

For my part, I believe the way to the light is to focus on understanding (or at least loving boundaries where understanding is too challenging) while relinquishing the need to direct change (i.e. control), but I struggle to get my behavior in line with this belief. Nevertheless, it has been rewarding when I succeed! Surrounding myself with kindred spirits in this has been vital in the practice. It's so different from my early environs and company.

 

Phanta

What "light" is this? Can you describe what this "light" is?

 

Things working better. Freer, genuine, more easeful. Light as in both brighter and less heavy.

 

Phanta

Okay, why do you use "light" with a definite article. This would indicate it is a noun, but your description does not seem to describe a noun.

[Guest end3]

What is it that you don't understand about Christ SAVING the lost. That is why we hold Christ in such a high regard, as He does it better than we, me specifically....so, no shit, that't the whole point, about me finding that resource for others.

 

I've always found that a compass is the best tool for getting un-lost. But I suppose that you don't mean lost like that. When I loose my keys, my wife can usually find them. She saves the lost keys.

 

God lost his humans and Jesus found them for him? God should put more thought into where he puts his humans down, then they wouldn't be lost in the first place -- that's what my wife tells me when I get all bent outta shape over lost keys.

 

And that naturally segue is to finding jay-zus.

 

You, L, are a natural theologian.