On Changing Minds

[bdp]

OC, you're deluded. Period.

[OrdinaryClay]

Would you be willing to explain to me, please, what qualities make Jesus "son" in relation to God?

My belief in the Trinity is pretty standard Theology. God is of one nature comprised of God the Father, Christ the Son and the Holy Ghost. What denomination were you when you were a Christian?

 

 

I'm having a conversation. Sussing you out. Probing.

 

Phanta

What is "sussing"?

[Shyone]

God can both know what you would freely choose, and exercise His omnipotence to bring about any world that is feasible.

 

 

So God could not be Omnipotent enough to bring about a world with significantly less suffering and much more "optimized good"? This is not feasible for His All Powerful God Abilities?

 

God created a "perfect earth" for A&E, and also a perfect heaven, only to be limited in what kind of earth there can be in the present. This would make a very obtuse and poor movie plot. Unless one is on drugs while watching the movie. Then it may make for a so-so comedy.

What about those situations where one person's free will cuts short someone else's free will. The pedophile rapist murderer and the child. Why does the free will of the murdering pedophile rapist supercede the child's free will?

 

And "knowing what we would freely choose" is still fixing the future so that there could be no future other than the predetermined future.

 

IOW, if we would have made choices to send us to hell, or heaven, then skip this farce and get on with it. Life is unnecessary if the future is already known. No "testing" matters and there are no choices to be made.

 

OrdinaryClay is taking this one person at a time. "Your free will". The problem is that life is much more complicated than that. Did the women and children slaughtered by Moses have free will? What will did they have to not be slaughtered?

 

Does the free will of the drunk driver outweigh the free will of the person he kills on the road?

 

I assume that free will is suppposed to give us a chance to "repent" or something, but what if the drunk driver killed someone the day before they would have repented? Still go to hell?

 

And if the answer is that God would have known what the man would have chosen, then the man's life to that point was pointless.

 

Omniscience makes life a pointless exercise since the outcome is already known.

[Legion]

What denomination were you when you were a Christian?

I was Southern Baptist and my grandpa could out preach yours.

 

You know Clay, sometimes even to this day I catch myself praying. But I also believe soliloquy is natural.

[OrdinaryClay]

So, why the choice to visit with us here? What interests you about posting on this ex-Christian site? Who invited you?

 

Phanta

An atheist told me about the site. He said I should come here and engage in debate.

 

I've spent a lot of time on many atheist sites.

 

Are you reluctant to say who?

I'm not, but unless he says I can I would rather not. He has not participated in any of our discussions.

 

 

I want to hear why people don't believe.

 

What interests you about that?

 

I want to hear what people think about Christianity.

 

What kind of thoughts about Christianity interest you?

I observe patterns. Over time this can be very educational.

 

 

I'm compelled to respond when falsehoods are stated about the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and His Christ. I'm not quiet.

 

By the verse you cited, I understand that you relate yourself to the watchman and speak the words you speak about your faith as a warning for people who believe differently, as a way to keep your soul in good stead. Is that right?

No, of course not. My salvation is through Christ - a gift "lest any man should boast". It takes no talent, intellect or skill to be saved by the grace of Christ. All Christians should relate to the verses I mentioned.

 

I write mostly for the people who read but may not participate in the discussions. I believe very, very deeply in the reality of what I speak.

 

I am getting that.

 

In which country did you spend your youth? Were you part of a Christian community there?

 

Phanta

The US. I first prayed to God in a meaningful way when I was 12. I believe He heard me then. I made a public profession of faith in Christ when I was 16. I'm much older then that now.

[Sconnor]

I do believe that we as free willed creatures would not always choose God with out suffering. It is our nature. So I don't find it surprising that the world chosen by God ended up having suffering in it. Christ suffered on the cross. We would not have salvation with out His suffering.

 

So, why the choice to visit with us here? What interests you about posting on this ex-Christian site? Who invited you?

 

Phanta

An atheist told me about the site. He said I should come here and engage in debate.

 

I've spent a lot of time on many atheist sites. I want to hear why people don't believe. I want to hear what people think about Christianity. I'm compelled to respond when falsehoods are stated about the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and His Christ.

 

You do NOT know the will and character of god.

 

You do NOT have any objective evidence for ANY of your extraordinary christian/god claims.

 

You do NOT possess any special knowledge of god, his plan or his morals.

 

You simply attributed your own deluded thoughts and stunted imagination to an imaginary deity.

 

My position is IF a living god exists no one knows the will and/or character of god (good or bad).

 

The only way christians think they "know" the will and character of god is by their idiosyncratic and SELECTIVE interpretation of spurious scripture, coupled with stunted speculative imagination.

 

I humbly submit, IF god exists, I do NOT know god; god is unknowable and christians (OC) sure as shit don't know god either!

 

I'm not quiet. I write mostly for the people who read but may not participate in the discussions. I believe very, very deeply in the reality of what I speak.

 

Very, very, very, deeply?

 

So does the delusional religionist who flies airplanes into buildings -- it doesn't mean it's TRUE though.

 

--S.

[Shyone]

Eze 33:2-9

9. But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself.

 

Another formula for "saving yourself." Have you ever considered how selfish your strategy is?

 

Worse yet, by quoting Ezekiel and relating this to saving your own miserable soul, you are reading the same thing the Jews read then, and now, and there is no need for Jesus.

[Phanta]

Would you be willing to explain to me, please, what qualities make Jesus "son" in relation to God?

My belief in the Trinity is pretty standard Theology. God is of one nature comprised of God the Father, Christ the Son and the Holy Ghost. What denomination were you when you were a Christian?

 

I grew up amongst Congregationalists, Baptists, and Episcopalians, but I wasn't much of a Christian, really.

 

So, the question is there, if you are up for it: What qualities make Jesus "son" in relation to God?

 

I'm having a conversation. Sussing you out. Probing.

 

Phanta

What is "sussing"?

 

Probing/evaluating. Getting a sense of who you are.

 

Phanta

[Guest end3]

Regardless of how I communicate, one has specifics, one doesn't.

You have just described the essence and appeal of legalism. Congratulations on choosing the easier road, the wider path that leads to destruction.

 

People choose to have answers clearly defined because it is fearful to walk by Faith....

 

Your heart is not something True to follow, unless you are God Himself.

And yet another day, and still no understanding...

 

You continually take your heart as the authority in your life, yet deny that it is perfect. And Clay is deluded?

 

 

I said, and say, that Clay is deluded because he said he can understand God through reason! I stand by that. But the heart is something that has ears beyond your ears, eyes beyond eyes, words beyond words, and so on. The heart is changed not through rationality, but through the reason of Love. Not a good exegesis of Biblical interpretation or an analysis of language, or matter, or biology, or even the constructs of religion in sociological contexts. It does come from within, through connection to the Universe, the totality of all Being, coming to you, through you, and transforming you. You bet is within you.

 

Tell me you can't read that in your own Bible. And yet you say the Heart cannot be trusted. What I hear is that you haven't learned to hear it, and then trust it. My proof, I have asked you 12 times to answer what your heart tells you, and you have not been able to respond. And now this.

 

Your authority to claim such is your one independent experience devoid of any other evidence.

Every single day is another day of confirmation, and another day of growth and understanding - through the heart, and the mind. And moreover, it's not about "Authority". It's about a living center. "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free". That freedom is from many things, but namely for me, freedom from the constraints of religious dogma upon the Spirit.

 

And because you deny Christ, there are wannabes in your wake.

Spoken like a true Grand Inquisitor! "Do you deny the Christ? Confess! Kiss the Cross!" You define what it means to "Deny Christ", then pass judgment without the 'witness of the heart'. What is that verse about "Grieving the Spirit"? Why are those verses about "Judge not, lest you be judged" important injunctions? Why are you not listening?

 

I see Christ as a way to talk about "God". It expresses something transcendent, and I can accept that, as well as all other ways to describe the ineffable (which for Clay's edification means it is beyond knowledge - and therefore you cannot know God through reason and analysis). I can also speak of Brahman. But I'm no literalist. They are expressive terms that point to something transcendent. You consider this "denying Christ", because I don't have your understanding. You are like that Catholic Priest who consigns others to hell because of his "authority".

 

Sad. This makes me sad to see you throw away that Baby, for your Bathwater. Your true colors as an Inquisitor are coming to light. Who is it that is denying "Christ"?

 

 

I can't believe I would say this, but it might help you to go "pray" and find that light inside you...

 

I have compassion for those that it would help. You might go read 2Peter 2 in your spare time.

[bdp]

 

I have compassion for those that it would help. You might go read 2Peter 2 in your spare time.

 

...as if he never has before...

[bdp]

Eze 33:2-9

9. But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself.

 

Another formula for "saving yourself." Have you ever considered how selfish your strategy is?

 

Worse yet, by quoting Ezekiel and relating this to saving your own miserable soul, you are reading the same thing the Jews read then, and now, and there is no need for Jesus.

 

This is why they ALL come here, afraid of falling into the wrath of their own god. Covering their ass is all.

[OrdinaryClay]

Would you be willing to explain to me, please, what qualities make Jesus "son" in relation to God?

My belief in the Trinity is pretty standard Theology. God is of one nature comprised of God the Father, Christ the Son and the Holy Ghost. What denomination were you when you were a Christian?

 

I grew up amongst Congregationalists, Baptists, and Episcopalians, but I wasn't much of a Christian, really.

 

So, the question is there, if you are up for it: What qualities make Jesus "son" in relation to God?

Did you ever consider yourself saved? You know what I mean right?

 

I kind of thought I did answer, but let me try again. Jesus Christ has the same nature (properties in the philosophical sense) as all the members of the Trinity with one difference - He was made incarnate through Mary. This incarnation is what makes Him the Son of God. If that did not answer I don't think I understand the question.

[Phanta]

Are you reluctant to say who?

 

I'm not, but unless he says I can I would rather not. He has not participated in any of our discussions.

 

Ah. Fair enough.

 

I observe patterns. Over time this can be very educational.

 

I can understand that. I do that, too.

 

I'm compelled to respond when falsehoods are stated about the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and His Christ. I'm not quiet.

 

By the verse you cited, I understand that you relate yourself to the watchman and speak the words you speak about your faith as a warning for people who believe differently, as a way to keep your soul in good stead. Is that right?

No, of course not. My salvation is through Christ - a gift "lest any man should boast". It takes no talent, intellect or skill to be saved by the grace of Christ. All Christians should relate to the verses I mentioned.

 

Hm. The verse was pretty clear that the person who doesn't warn has some pretty bad consequences and the person who does warn hast "delivered thy soul", "saved yourself".

 

Is this some other kind of soul delivery/saving?

 

In which country did you spend your youth? Were you part of a Christian community there?

 

Phanta

The US. I first prayed to God in a meaningful way when I was 12. I believe He heard me then. I made a public profession of faith in Christ when I was 16. I'm much older then that now.

 

Huh.

 

Ok,

Phanta

[Shyone]

I have compassion for those that it would help. You might go read 2Peter 2 in your spare time.

You are aware that 2 Peter is a forgery, aren't you?

 

2 Peter:12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

 

Compare with:

 

Lev. 24:15. Say to the Israelites: `If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible;

16. anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

 

The early church could not do much about Blasphemy, could they? But give the church power and what happens:

 

Keith Porteous Wood, Executive Director of the National Secular Society attended the debate and welcomed the Lords’ decision. He said: “The National Secular Society has been campaigning to abolish the blasphemy laws for 140 years. The laws have an iniquitous history of persecution, and because it is a common law offence with no limit on punishment, it has resulted in executions and imprisonments with hard labour for people who wrote and said things that would, in the modern day, be considered trivial. It is disgraceful that such a relic of religious savagery has survived into the 21st century.”

 

In early modern Sweden, blasphemy was regarded as one of the most serious crimes one could commit. It was subject to the death penalty and was termed Crimen Laesae Majestatis Diviniae– a "crime against the heavenly majesty." In the period 1680–1789, 110 cases of blasphemy came before the Judiciary Inspectorate; these cases can be divided into the following categories: blasphemy against God, basphemy against the sacraments, deliberate assignations to the Devil, and other blasphemies. Of the 117 accused, only nine were women and a significant number were soldiers. Blasphemy could be regarded a common subgenre within an already oral military culture.

 

Yep, that's you End. Compassion. Burn them at the stake if you could, wouldn't you? If you had the power...

 

You are a real savage at heart, aren't you? Kill the heathens! Off with their heads!

 

You, and 2 Peter - the perfect fucking combination of religious persecution.

[Phanta]

Would you be willing to explain to me, please, what qualities make Jesus "son" in relation to God?

My belief in the Trinity is pretty standard Theology. God is of one nature comprised of God the Father, Christ the Son and the Holy Ghost. What denomination were you when you were a Christian?

 

I grew up amongst Congregationalists, Baptists, and Episcopalians, but I wasn't much of a Christian, really.

 

So, the question is there, if you are up for it: What qualities make Jesus "son" in relation to God?

Did you ever consider yourself saved? You know what I mean right?

 

I did when I was young, but now that I understand the concept better, I don't think I was at all, ever. I was just trying to fit in.

 

I kind of thought I did answer, but let me try again. Jesus Christ has the same nature (properties in the philosophical sense) as all the members of the Trinity with one difference - He was made incarnate through Mary. This incarnation is what makes Him the Son of God. If that did not answer I don't think I understand the question.

 

Ok, this answer helps me understand better, I think. Let me know how I do.

 

Jesus is just like God in nature and philosophically. The difference is he was born human of a human. Jesus is corporeal. Yes?

 

Phanta

[agnosticator]

God can both know what you would freely choose, and exercise His omnipotence to bring about any world that is feasible.

 

 

So God could not be Omnipotent enough to bring about a world with significantly less suffering and much more "optimized good"? This is not feasible for His All Powerful God Abilities?

 

God created a "perfect earth" for A&E, and also a perfect heaven, only to be limited in what kind of earth there can be in the present. This would make a very obtuse and poor movie plot. Unless one is on drugs while watching the movie. Then it may make for a so-so comedy.

What about those situations where one person's free will cuts short someone else's free will. The pedophile rapist murderer and the child. Why does the free will of the murdering pedophile rapist supercede the child's free will?

 

And "knowing what we would freely choose" is still fixing the future so that there could be no future other than the predetermined future.

 

IOW, if we would have made choices to send us to hell, or heaven, then skip this farce and get on with it. Life is unnecessary if the future is already known. No "testing" matters and there are no choices to be made.

 

OrdinaryClay is taking this one person at a time. "Your free will". The problem is that life is much more complicated than that. Did the women and children slaughtered by Moses have free will? What will did they have to not be slaughtered?

 

Does the free will of the drunk driver outweigh the free will of the person he kills on the road?

 

I assume that free will is suppposed to give us a chance to "repent" or something, but what if the drunk driver killed someone the day before they would have repented? Still go to hell?

 

And if the answer is that God would have known what the man would have chosen, then the man's life to that point was pointless.

 

Omniscience makes life a pointless exercise since the outcome is already known.

 

 

We are slaves to His Will. Free will ain't so free when our lives play out according to the Divine Plan. Yes, He knows all, and therefore determines our pointless lives.

 

I just love how the Story places Paradise before and after our lives on earth. God wanted us to "choose" to be obedient slaves for eternity. He set our house on fire while we were asleep, and gives us the option of burning or jumping. He promises to catch us and send us to Siberia where it's cold, and there's no partying, sex, booze, or Ferraris.

[Sconnor]

He chose to create free willed creatures. The free willed creatures are the ones who chose to reject Him.

 

OrdinaryClay,

 

How in the hell am I suppose to choose or reject something that doesn't have ANY reliable information to base that decision on?

 

Just because you insanely convinced yourself you know god's will and character doesn't mean we have to be down with the delusion.

 

If god exists, then god knows, exactly, where to find me -- he can share with me his character and will by telling me exactly, and concisely, everything he needs me to know, himself -- this way, I can be absolutely certain, what god wants from me, and I don't have to rely on some fallible, deluded christian asshole, that makes insane, unsubstantiated, interpretive god/jesus claims.

 

Furthermore, there is no free will or choice, in the matter, when your god-concept holds a gun to your head and says believe in me or I'll torture you, in the flames, of hell for an eternity -- that's not a choice, that's an ULTIMATUM, from a sick, sadistic monster. Your god is insanely insecure and morbidly petty, to send his earthly children to the flames of hell, simply, because they did not believe, in him or because they concluded there was no objective evidence for his existence (What's the matter -- were god's poor little feelings hurt?). I don't know what's more pathetically horrendous, a god who will torture you just because you don't believe, in him or the ignorant christian drone, who believes and condones god's actions?

 

Also, Why would your god create these earthly souls, in the first place, knowing the majority of them were destined for an eternity of egregious suffering?

 

The ONLY answer I can come up with -- your god-concept is a vile torturer of souls. What else could it be?

 

--S.

[Kathlene]

Sconnor, I find it interesting that you have no problem with the concept of if God exists, he can show himself to you, and yet you dont find it acceptable at all that other people have this experience. Huh.

 

If god exists, then god knows, exactly, where to find me -- he can share with me his character and will by telling me exactly, and concisely, everything he needs me to know, himself -- this way, I can be absolutely certain, what god wants from me, and I don't have to rely on some fallible, deluded christian asshole, that makes insane, unsubstantiated, interpretive god/jesus claims

[Antlerman]

I have compassion for those that it would help. You might go read 2Peter 2 in your spare time.

Then you don't know the nature of compassion either.

 

You tie it to sharing the same point of view, the same interpretation, the same belief. I don't. I'm sorry you feel the need to try to put me down in order to deal with your feelings today, or as just some reaction of your mood swings. It doesn't matter. My compassion is not tied to you understanding or accepting me. It's bigger than beliefs.

 

Now as far as trying to call me a false prophet, of course that is seen as a hostile act and a desperate low blow from someone feeling out of control. Again, you should seek some inner peace, and through that find compassion and a spirit of understanding that is willing to set aside their vanity for the sake of compassion and love. That is after all what it's about, isn't it? But all this isn't about me, but you.

 

Since we're sharing passages, you can look at Lk. 11:14 and following, when you have the time.

[bdp]

OC, if it was 'finished' on the 'cross' - why wasn't it? Didn't 'god' get everything 'he' needed - blood sacrifice, death defeated? Why wasn't it 'game over' then and there? Pretty lousy system where 2,000 years pass and billions of souls are born destined for hell, to say nothing of the rape, murder, genocide, etc. that has gone on in the interim (guess those don't matter to 'god' since they're only temporal occurrences anyway), when it could have all ended with the 'resurrection' if your 'god' really was merciful.

[StevoMuso]

OC, if it was 'finished' on the 'cross' - why wasn't it? Didn't 'god' get everything 'he' needed - blood sacrifice, death defeated? Why wasn't it 'game over' then and there? Pretty lousy system where 2,000 years pass and billions of souls are born destined for hell, to say nothing of the rape, murder, genocide, etc. that has gone on in the interim (guess those don't matter to 'god' since they're only temporal occurrences anyway), when it could have all ended with the 'resurrection' if your 'god' really was merciful.

And further more - if your God is so powerful and merciful why doesn't He simply forgive us without wanting blood sacrifice? And not just any blood either - it has to be innocent blood.

 

Do you have any idea, our beloved Christians, how disgusting/barbaric/macabre that is? Your God killed a one-week-old baby to punish King David for murder and adultery and He hasn't changed his tune very much in the last 2000 years. Blood sacrifice is morally reprehensible and your entire religion is based on this sick doctrine.

[Phanta]

I have compassion for those that it would help. You might go read 2Peter 2 in your spare time.

 

Wow. This passage has some hardcore dehumanizing language in it. Dehumanization is a major step on the path of hate toward "the enemy" Other. I'm a little surprised the Bible feeds so obviously into human hate psychology. That's pretty unholy stuff.

 

Phanta

[OrdinaryClay]

No, of course not. My salvation is through Christ - a gift "lest any man should boast". It takes no talent, intellect or skill to be saved by the grace of Christ. All Christians should relate to the verses I mentioned.

 

Hm. The verse was pretty clear that the person who doesn't warn has some pretty bad consequences and the person who does warn hast "delivered thy soul", "saved yourself".

 

Is this some other kind of soul delivery/saving?

You don't understand what the New Covenant is? This seems surprising if so. The New Testament describes the New Covenant of salvation through grace, not by works. Read Romans. That is why Christ died.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

Sconnor, I find it interesting that you have no problem with the concept of if God exists, he can show himself to you, and yet you dont find it acceptable at all that other people have this experience. Huh.

 

If god exists, then god knows, exactly, where to find me -- he can share with me his character and will by telling me exactly, and concisely, everything he needs me to know, himself -- this way, I can be absolutely certain, what god wants from me, and I don't have to rely on some fallible, deluded christian asshole, that makes insane, unsubstantiated, interpretive god/jesus claims

There is also the idea, that, experience is lousy evidence. I guess seeing God in a way, unlike most believers through the ages, that can't be accounted for by means of psychology is what he means.

[OrdinaryClay]

I kind of thought I did answer, but let me try again. Jesus Christ has the same nature (properties in the philosophical sense) as all the members of the Trinity with one difference - He was made incarnate through Mary. This incarnation is what makes Him the Son of God. If that did not answer I don't think I understand the question.

 

Ok, this answer helps me understand better, I think. Let me know how I do.

 

Jesus is just like God in nature and philosophically. The difference is he was born human of a human. Jesus is corporeal. Yes?

 

Phanta

No.

 

Jesus is God who became incarnate. Try reading these ...

http://www.cmalliance.org/about/beliefs/doctrine

http://www.blessedhopechapel.org/beliefs.html