Ouroboros Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 My guess... He's put a lot of effort into acquiring his apologetic arsenal and now he wants to test it out on us. Very true. I suspect he spent a lot of money on his apologist degree, so he needs to confirm it was worth the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 My guess... He's put a lot of effort into acquiring his apologetic arsenal and now he wants to test it out on us. Very true. I suspect he spent a lot of money on his apologist degree, so he needs to confirm it was worth the money. The time he's apparently spent on it makes me more sad than the money he may have spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanta Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I know many people who are content, not distracted, and so leave others to their beliefs. It is a sign of deep contentment not to feel driven to evangelize. You may not know such people because your experiences have only been with people putting their views on others. Part of this will be your immersion in the Evangelical community where the charge is to do so. Part of it may be just that like attracts like. People who are content with their beliefs don't need to argue them when faced with other views, so you wouldn't even know they didn't agree with you. And of course, you are here. We're an opinionated bunch. There are some quiet confident here. Can you name them? Hint: they aren't in the threads you like to participate in. Overall, your perspective is extremely limited by your own personality and religious goals. If someday you learn to be a listener instead of an Evangelizer, you will begin to notice those of quiet confidence. I can recognize quiet confidence and still evangelize. The recognition of the former does not preclude the action of the latter. I have found that I'm limited as to where I can post, but by all means point out to me those posts you think are evidence of quite confidence. You misunderstand my post. I'm not talking about you. You are not a practitioner of live and let live in quiet confidence; you are a vocal and active salesperson for your belief system. I'm talking about other people. My observations is that sometimes quiet is due to confidence, not "distraction by other things", as you asserted. I understood. I was asking for you to point me to the posts of those(other people on this site) you thought demonstrated quiet confidence. Sorry for the confusion. Saying you understand something doesn't demonstrate actual understanding in my book.I have no idea if your disagreement-then-agreement has anything to do whatsoever with my actual statement, because agreeing or disagreeing also rarely demonstrates understanding of the other person's position. The evidence I gathered so far suggests you don't agree, but maybe agree, with something you think I said...but because your replies don't make sense, I think you probably don't understand. Regarding examples here of quiet confidence, they are people who aren't usually in the arguing-with-Christians forums. Three come straight to mind, but I'm not willing to shine the light on them, lest your goal is to then hound them with your message. (I don't know you well enough to know your intentions). If they want to engage you, they will come, but I suspect they won't. It's not a trait of people with quiet confidence to pursue unnecessary engagement with debaters and evangelizers. Phanta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 No, we have free will. God choose the world in which we would freely choose. So we can choose freely, but God already knows what we will choose. It's a deterministic system. When the system has a given and specific outcome, which cannot be changed--since God knows the future with absolute certainty--the system is deterministic. And around and around we go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 The time he's apparently spent on it makes me more sad than the money he may have spent. It's called opportunity cost in Economics. I just wanted to show off my amazing knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 My guess... He's put a lot of effort into acquiring his apologetic arsenal and now he wants to test it out on us. Very true. I suspect he spent a lot of money on his apologist degree, so he needs to confirm it was worth the money. The time he's apparently spent on it makes me more sad than the money he may have spent. Theology is a great waste of time. When it's only for entertainment, it's useful, but when taken seriously, it means that the efforts expended are efforts that could have had practical good for humanity. St. Thomas Aquinas would have made a great researcher in genetics, as would many of his contemporaries, but instead they spent their lives creating something as insubstantial as "straw." Even Aquinas realized this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 The time he's apparently spent on it makes me more sad than the money he may have spent. It's called opportunity cost in Economics. I just wanted to show off my amazing knowledge. Oh Hans! The opportunity costs! It breaks my heart. It really does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brakeman Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 No, God knows all potential worlds(moves), and then chooses to actualize one. Determinism then. Calvin was right. No, we have free will. God choose the world in which we would freely choose. That's circular isn't it? "God chose the world" Yeah, god exercised his free will, but that was never the question. God made the world, from the beginning of time to the end of time, all dimensions, all at once, right? If so, there could be no free will. Ponder that. You see humans are myopic because they are used to seeing things only from their perspective. God would see things from all perspectives. We experience time as a gradual pathway from a kind of right angle perspective. Yet god could see it as it really is, a dimension, head on. Thus god wouldn't create just a starting point he would need to create an ending point too. It is the ending point that is the problem with free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanta Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 None of us have the ability to know why God chose the world He did because we can not see the total picture, hence my quoting 1Co 13:12. In this I trust Him because of who He is. I worship Him. God is beyond your understanding so you trust him. God is beyond your complete understanding, so you worship God. A criteria (inspiration?) for you to trust in and worship something is that it be incomprehensible as a whole. Yes? If you understood God as a whole, would God not be worth worshiping? If you understood God as a whole, would God be untrustworthy? Your criteria is artificial. It isn't "my criteria". I am attempting to understand you. As far as I was concerned, until I read this post, these were "OrdinaryClay's criteria". I thought this was what you meant based on the context of it following "None of us have the ability to know why God chose the world He did because we can not see the total picture, hence my quoting...". There are people who worship something in awe in part because it is unknowable. The mystery is part of the draw. I hear you say clearly now that the mystery of God is not a criteria for you to worship God. We can make choices and decisions on partial information. We do it all the time. The only criteria is that we understand enough that is relevant to the decision. I know God is the Creator. I know God gave us Salvation through Christ. I know God is Love. I know many other characteristics, and in total they make my decision to worship Him very easy. Ok. Thank you for clarifying. I revise my understanding of your position: 1Co 13:12. "In this I trust Him because of who He is. I worship Him" is quoted by you not to emphasize the awesomeness of God being wholly unknowable. You agree that God is unknowable as a whole but you worship God for what you DO know about God (Creator, Love, Salvation), despite the mystery of the big picture. God being wholly unknowable is not a criteria that contributes to your worship and trust. Hence "1Co 13:12. In this I trust Him because of who He is. I worship Him." To paraphrase your interpretation, "In this I trust and worship God because of the stuff I DO know about God that is awesome, even if I don't understand everything about God." Is this an accurate paraphrase of your understanding of 1Co 13:12 and your criteria for trusting and worshiping God? (Also, what does "this" refer to at the beginning of the verse?) Joh 6:68(68) Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. This has no meaning to me in relation to this discussion in its current form. Maybe some context would help. Also, I'm still curious about your gender assignment for God. Upon what do you base it? Phanta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanta Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 "In this I trust Him because of who He is. I worship Him" Ha. I see part of my confusion. This isn't a Bible verse. These are your words. The Bible verse is the "seeing through the glass darkly" one. Ok, so, you believe that someday (when you die?) you will see fully what is obscure now and it will be good and beautiful. <-- This is the "this" in which you trust and why you worship God. Yes? You believe it based on evidence you see that God 1) is the Creator of all, 2) is loving, and 3) has provided a means for salvation for you. Yes? And for extra measure, you've make it clear that the unknowable stuff about God holds no draw to you. It's not a criteria for your worship. Yes? Is this right? Do I have you now? Phanta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I know God is the Creator. I know God gave us Salvation through Christ. I know God is Love. I know many other characteristics, and in total they make my decision to worship Him very easy. No, actually, you don't. You feel it's true. You believe it's true. There is absolutely no proof of what you claim other than your feelings, and pardon me if I don't fall to my knees in worship over what you feel. I invoke the atheist creed: prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Oh Hans! The opportunity costs! It breaks my heart. It really does. I wonder if we should analyze the Cost of Externalities as well, when we're at it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I know God is the Creator. I know God gave us Salvation through Christ. I know God is Love. I know many other characteristics, and in total they make my decision to worship Him very easy. No, actually, you don't. You feel it's true. You believe it's true. There is absolutely no proof of what you claim other than your feelings, and pardon me if I don't fall to my knees in worship over what you feel. I invoke the atheist creed: prove it. c'mon now par, 'proof' is a mathematical term... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I know God is the Creator. I know God gave us Salvation through Christ. I know God is Love. I know many other characteristics, and in total they make my decision to worship Him very easy. No, actually, you don't. You feel it's true. You believe it's true. There is absolutely no proof of what you claim other than your feelings, and pardon me if I don't fall to my knees in worship over what you feel. I invoke the atheist creed: prove it. c'mon now par, 'proof' is a mathematical term... I know, I know. Xians don't go for all that evil "scientific" stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brakeman Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I know, I know. Xians don't go for all that evil "scientific" stuff. Well why would they? Take a Xtian into any modern lab and they'll notice right away that there are no alters for the animal sacrifices and very few scientists trying to get to the great revelations by cutting off parts of their penises. I mean Honestly, they MUST be onto something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoMuso Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 After all those years of study one day you just decided it was not true? As we have all said repeatedly in this thread - it was not a decision. It was more like a revelation - a removal of the blinkers of faith. I didn't "decide" it was not true - I "found out" it wasn't true. There is a HUGE difference. How many years did it take you to have this "revelation"? What I don't understand is why it happened when it did and not a year earlier for example? Because before that point I was blinded by my faith - just as you are now. I had some questions that nobody could/would answer and so I did some research. As my knowledge grew, so the deception became less and less until finally the last scales of faith fell from my eyes and I knew I had been deceived. It was traumatic, devastating even, to realize I'd been living and believing in a lie, but uncovering the lie simply set me free of its clutches - it was NOT AS A RESULT of a single decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 8, 2010 Author Share Posted March 8, 2010 You're going to Hell Stevo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 You're going to Hell Stevo. He is, but I hear Satan is a cool dude in a loose mood. Except for what he does with the pitchfork! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 You don't know what the minimum amount of evil is needed in a world with a maximum amount of salvation given free willed agents. It may well have been the case that God needed to allow a certain amount of evil to optimize the good given our free wills. None of us know the details of this dynamic. This "certain amount of evil" is vast and incomprehensible. This "optimized good" seems to be minimal in comparison to the unnecessary and vast evil. Few are chosen; many are wasted (including animals). Why choose a world full of suffering when things were perfect before the fall? A&E were innocent and naive, with zero knowledge of good/evil (morality). That was heaven. Now we have to put all beings through hell on earth just for a few to go to the heaven A&E already had! Life as an experiment or test for salvation seems to be alot to ask of God's playthings. Better be careful what you choose with your "freewill"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 I know God is the Creator. I know God gave us Salvation through Christ. I know God is Love. I know many other characteristics, and in total they make my decision to worship Him very easy. No, actually, you don't. You feel it's true. You believe it's true. There is absolutely no proof of what you claim other than your feelings, and pardon me if I don't fall to my knees in worship over what you feel. I invoke the atheist creed: prove it. c'mon now par, 'proof' is a mathematical term... I know, I know. Xians don't go for all that evil "scientific" stuff. What are you talking about L...I manage an evil scientific laboratory....the bunsen burner doubles for an altar. Btw, I appreciated the comment in the other thread this morning...I think you might make a worthy beer drinker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 My analogy still holds whether we are talking faith or "Faith", but we can go with your distinction if you like. It starts with evidence. As I've stated many times empirical evidence is not the only form of valid evidence. So you're saying that your spirituality starts with your rational analysis of evidence, and not a matter of the heart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Faith is supernatural: "... God has dealt to each one a MEASURE OF FAITH." (Romans 12:3) So if you have no faith, God took it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlene Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 I don't fight God. I don't understand your question. North of the North Pole. You don't understand because you are protecting your belief and can't see beyond your trained apologetic reasoning. If God exists and he is the way you say he is (North of the North Pole), then I am exactly at the point in life he knew I would be, so why are you here trying to undo God's will? But perhaps that's another "North of the North Pole" question for you. Ouroboros...Im going to throw out a suggestion to you, just as food for thought in your situation. Firstly, I have no idea why god didn't answer your prayer that morning out the shower for you...however, when you didnt get the answer, now this is just hypothetical here, cause I dont know you or your life. Im just offering a viewpoint, maybe, just maybe your heart started to become hard and closed off to god, when he didnt come through under your time schedule, until now...you have completely done a 360 turn on him with your back to him. I know this can happen, cause it happened to me. I guess and this is only pure conjecture, Im not making any accusations at you. I got to a point of instead of demanding God to be with me, I turned back towards him, and my heart became softer. meh, just a thought. Our lives are completely separate, and far be it for me to analyse your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Ouroboros...Im going to throw out a suggestion to you, just as food for thought in your situation. Firstly, I have no idea why god didn't answer your prayer that morning out the shower for you...however, when you didnt get the answer, now this is just hypothetical here, cause I dont know you or your life. Im just offering a viewpoint, maybe, just maybe your heart started to become hard and closed off to god, when he didnt come through under your time schedule, until now...you have completely done a 360 turn on him with your back to him. I know this can happen, cause it happened to me. I guess and this is only pure conjecture, Im not making any accusations at you. I got to a point of instead of demanding God to be with me, I turned back towards him, and my heart became softer. meh, just a thought. Our lives are completely separate, and far be it for me to analyse your life. Well, the problem is, I don't believe God exists. So how could I turn to God, to an imaginary thing/being? Isn't it up to God now? Why is it that for faith to work, we have to accept fantasies? This is how it sounds to me: Why don't you believe in Santa? Did you harden your heart so much that Santa can't come and show himself to you anymore? Perhaps Santa exists, but he refuse to prove his existence to you because you decided to hate him? The turning point in my life came after a very long time while my faith was dwindling. I prayed over all those years, and nothing improved. At first I was just hoping that God existed. I wanted God to exist. I prayed over those years a lot. And read the Bible. Went to Church. Nothing helped. One day I realized that my hope and wait was in vain. God had the chance to help me for a long time. And now, it's true, I've come to a point where God needs to do more than just suggest the possibility of perhaps he could exist if I imagined it hard enough. How disney-ish! Read Romans 12:3 and tell me where faith comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 [No, we have free will. God choose the world in which we would freely choose. This is a popular Christian myth. If you're a Bible believer, you're in no position to make this outlandish claim. Predestination is clearly taught in Rom 8, Rom 9 and Eph 1:4-5,11. At least some people are predestined to their roles and decisions. The Bible also indicates that God manipulates people to make certain choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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