On Changing Minds

[par4dcourse]

Yes. I was told I would need a heart transplant. With in a year my EF was back to normal and I was running 10 miles. That was 14 years ago.

So you prayed to God for a miracle?

My mother prayed for decades for god to heal my Juvenile Diabetes, and I'm still a brittle diabetic.

I refused prayer b efor e bypass surgery, and still make noise today.

Your god has a curious criteria for miracles.

What caused you to loose your faith, or were you always an atheist?

Education

[Brakeman]

So clay, when you browse through the new testament and you read of jesus or one of the disciples healing someone, what do you think was their criteria on selecting people to heal?

God's glorification.

 

Joh 9:3

(3) Jesus answered, Neither has this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God might be revealed in him.

 

Hmm, that's not much of an answer is it? god could have been glorified with just one healing a day or of six. As such, glorification does not fit the definition of criteria. I mean god would be just as glorified by healing one person as six thousand, wouldn't he?

[agnosticator]

Then everything is God's will, both good and evil, making Him good and evil simultaneously.

Of course not, evil is the result of free willed creatures rejecting the will of God.

 

 

God creates (causes) both good and evil, according to the Bible. I don't recall all the verses, but they are clear. You have evaded the question. I was talking about God's nature. It follows when most Christians suffer without miracles while some receive them (supposedly).

[par4dcourse]

So clay, when you browse through the new testament and you read of jesus or one of the disciples healing someone, what do you think was their criteria on selecting people to heal?

God's glorification.

 

Joh 9:3

(3) Jesus answered, Neither has this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God might be revealed in him.

 

Hmm, that's not much of an answer is it? god could have been glorified with just one healing a day or of six. As such, glorification does not fit the definition of criteria. I mean god would be just as glorified by healing one person as six thousand, wouldn't he?

Bold mine

 

Now god has odd miracle criteria and he's quite narcissistic.

[OrdinaryClay]

Of course, I accepted medical help.

Okay - so your recovery doesn't meet standard requirements for being declared a miracle. You just believed a miracle into existence - how convenient. Your miracle, like your religion, only exists in your mind. In a church you may get a "hallelujah" response to your "miracle" but on this forum you will only get people like me asking you to please just be honest. You may have convinced yourself, but you haven't convinced me.

 

I say this with the utmost compassion having had similar delusions in the past.

I don't know what the standard requirements for a miracle are?

 

Actually, I've always been embarrassed by my illness so I have not mentioned it to many people. I'm a bit ashamed to say so, but that is the truth. It does hold special meaning to me, though.

 

I'm not deluded, as I said my faith is rational.

[OrdinaryClay]

What caused you to loose your faith, or were you always an atheist?

Education

Education has reinforced my belief in Christ.

[OrdinaryClay]

So clay, when you browse through the new testament and you read of jesus or one of the disciples healing someone, what do you think was their criteria on selecting people to heal?

God's glorification.

 

Joh 9:3

(3) Jesus answered, Neither has this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God might be revealed in him.

 

Hmm, that's not much of an answer is it? god could have been glorified with just one healing a day or of six. As such, glorification does not fit the definition of criteria. I mean god would be just as glorified by healing one person as six thousand, wouldn't he?

I don't know. Ask Him.

[StevoMuso]

Of course, I accepted medical help.

Okay - so your recovery doesn't meet standard requirements for being declared a miracle. You just believed a miracle into existence - how convenient. Your miracle, like your religion, only exists in your mind. In a church you may get a "hallelujah" response to your "miracle" but on this forum you will only get people like me asking you to please just be honest. You may have convinced yourself, but you haven't convinced me.

 

I say this with the utmost compassion having had similar delusions in the past.

I still say you're lying about your miracle Clay.

[par4dcourse]

What caused you to loose your faith, or were you always an atheist?

Education

Education has reinforced my belief in Christ.

We would have exactly the same exange about the bible.

[Brakeman]

quote name='OrdinaryClay' date='07 March 2010 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1267991745'

God's glorification.

 

 

 

If glory means praise, then you're saying that god is so emotionally needy that he plies tricks to get people to talk good about him.

 

Really now...

[OrdinaryClay]

Then everything is God's will, both good and evil, making Him good and evil simultaneously.

Of course not, evil is the result of free willed creatures rejecting the will of God.

 

 

God creates (causes) both good and evil, according to the Bible. I don't recall all the verses, but they are clear. You have evaded the question. I was talking about God's nature. It follows when most Christians suffer without miracles while some receive them (supposedly).

I evaded nothing. You asked a short question to which I provided a direct answer.

 

You are just restating the Problem of Evil. There are theological answers to this question. Have you spent any time studying the subject? There are many responses by Christians with corresponding responses by atheists.

[Ouroboros]

Yes, myself and others. I prayed if it was within His will.

So you tested God? And now you believe because of experience of a miracle, and really not because of reason.

[Ouroboros]

I would still worship Him no matter how He had responded. I did not demand anything from Him.

Then why did you even ask him for anything? If it was God's will, God would have done it anyway. So why ask God for a miracle if it wasn't important?

[agnosticator]

Then everything is God's will, both good and evil, making Him good and evil simultaneously.

Of course not, evil is the result of free willed creatures rejecting the will of God.

 

 

God creates (causes) both good and evil, according to the Bible. I don't recall all the verses, but they are clear. You have evaded the question. I was talking about God's nature. It follows when most Christians suffer without miracles while some receive them (supposedly).

I evaded nothing. You asked a short question to which I provided a direct answer.

 

You are just restating the Problem of Evil. There are theological answers to this question. Have you spent any time studying the subject? There are many responses by Christians with corresponding responses by atheists.

 

Your answer didn't address God's character and nature that would be responsible for allowing miracles for a few, while allowing suffering for many. The problem of evil is relevant to miracles from God. It has nothing to do with man being blamed by God for the fall. That is a different issue. And yes, I have studied theoligical answers. I was asking you for your view.

[OrdinaryClay]

I still say you're lying about your miracle Clay.

That is the predicament atheism finds itself in. It is the result of begging the question when it comes to the supernatural.

[Legion]

Education has reinforced my belief in Christ.

What have you been trying to learn about? What are your main subjects of interest?

[Brakeman]

From Clay

"I don't know. Ask Him."

 

 

Ok GOd, if you're there, please fire up the 'ol pc and type out an answer here, PLEASE!

 

Forgive me if I don't hold my breath..

 

So you're saying that you don't see any particular constraints between picking one leper over another or between healing six in one village and sixty in another.

 

I take it that the people that were healed didn't need to have the same amount of faith as the healer. I mean it doesn't appear that the "babes" in christ were excluded because they weren't quite there in their beliefs, right?

[oddbird1963]

OrdinaryClay,

 

It is astounding how you and others like you simply dismiss the "testimony" that you hold so dearly in your heart as a legitimate means for collecting evidence.

 

Ex-Christians keep telling you that it was not a choice of theirs to believe or not to believe in Christ and the christian faith, yet you simply ignore the testimony and thus the evidence that belief is not a choice.

 

In fact, when I became a christian, I never considered faith to be a choice. It certainly didn't feel like a choice. It felt like I had a new understanding of reality that was reordering the way I looked at the world. I heard what people told me about Jesus and salvation. I believed. Note that I didn't say "I chose to believe." I simply believed. I then followed through. But there was no deciding there.

 

When I was struggling with the christian faith and how it squared with reality 30 years later, I concluded that there was no god. Not because I chose to do that, but because it was the only way things made sense. Once I came to that conclusion there was yet another reordering of the way I looked at the world. It was a better view of the world than before.

 

There was no choosing or deciding to believe or disbelieve. Just an opening of my inner eyes to the light of reality in much the same way that getting new information about a historical subject from a teacher can suddenly open the mind to a whole new appreciation of history. But there is no act of will involved. Just believing or not believing.

 

So, your view of faith and belief is skewed by the fact that you won't listen to the personal testimony and witness (a.k.a. evidence) of people who hold a different belief than you do.

 

Where's that ostrich image sconnor used in that other thread?

[Ouroboros]

That is the predicament atheism finds itself in. It is the result of begging the question when it comes to the supernatural.

So why is it that some people receive a miracle but not others?

 

If you say it's God's will, than it is also begging the question. The alternative answer is that the body have an extraordinary ability to heal itself, and that we're just in the beginning of understanding of how nature works. To give a supernatural imaginary being the credit for something that eventually can be explained through natural means, is only a god-of-the-gaps argument.

[OrdinaryClay]

I evaded nothing. You asked a short question to which I provided a direct answer.

 

You are just restating the Problem of Evil. There are theological answers to this question. Have you spent any time studying the subject? There are many responses by Christians with corresponding responses by atheists.

 

Your answer didn't address God's character and nature that would be responsible for allowing miracles for a few, while allowing suffering for many. The problem of evil is relevant to miracles from God. It has nothing to do with man being blamed by God for the fall. That is a different issue. And yes, I have studied theoligical answers. I was asking you for your view.

I don't understand your response.

 

My view is that God's Middle Knowledge allows Him to make a choice in which world He actualized so as to maximize good while minimizing evil in a free willed world. This removes the logical paradox from the Problem of Evil. Exactly why we see the world we do is not available to any of us, but I do know there is no logical contradiction.

 

1Co 13:12

(12) For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall fully know even as I also am fully known.

[OrdinaryClay]

Yes, myself and others. I prayed if it was within His will.

So you tested God? And now you believe because of experience of a miracle, and really not because of reason.

I have rational faith because of evidence.

[Ouroboros]

My view is that God's Middle Knowledge allows Him to make a choice in which world He actualized so as to maximize good while minimizing evil in a free willed world.

Then God is not fully omniscient. He doesn't know all the facts, only some. And he's guessing the outcome.

 

This removes the logical paradox from the Problem of Evil.

I don't see how.

 

God is able.

God is willing.

But evil still persists.

 

Your answer is that God is not willing because "Free Will" trumps.

 

Free Will in other words are the Ultimate Good.

 

Exactly why we see the world we do is not available to any of us, but I do know there is no logical contradiction.

Because you're blinded by faith.

[OrdinaryClay]

I would still worship Him no matter how He had responded. I did not demand anything from Him.

Then why did you even ask him for anything? If it was God's will, God would have done it anyway. So why ask God for a miracle if it wasn't important?

God seeks fellowship with us for our spiritual benefit.

 

I never said it wasn't important to me. I said I would have worshiped Him no matter what had happened.

[OrdinaryClay]

Education has reinforced my belief in Christ.

What have you been trying to learn about? What are your main subjects of interest?

Science and mathematics is where I have spent most of my time. I also have interest in Philosophy and History.

[agnosticator]

I don't understand your response.

 

My view is that God's Middle Knowledge allows Him to make a choice in which world He actualized so as to maximize good while minimizing evil in a free willed world. This removes the logical paradox from the Problem of Evil. Exactly why we see the world we do is not available to any of us, but I do know there is no logical contradiction.

 

Ok, now I got your answer. I was simply stating this:

If God only allows a miracle for some, and ignores other requests (or allows them to not receive the miracle), then there is something amiss. God has allowed both good and evil, since He alone creates both. If a surgeon operated on one patient and that patient healed, while the next patient was refused the same operation, and so suffered, what does that say about the surgeon?