bdp Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.” “The question is”, said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master – that’s all.” “Fan her head!” the Red Queen anxiously interrupted. “She’ll be feverish after so much thinking.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 If millions testify as to the veracity of something this is a form of evidence. So you'll also be advocating for Islam here then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Clearly, millions of people have found it not to be a false hope. No offense, but your view is myopic. Just because you have made a choice to believe He is impossible and does not exists does not make it so. Serious question here: How does one choose to believe in the existence of something one knows does not exist? For example: Why don't you choose to believe in Allah? Is is because you know Allah is not real, or is it just because you feel spiteful toward Allah? Oh and contrary-wise just because you "choose" to believe in BibleGod doesn't make BibleGod real, just like those millions of folks that find refuge in Allah don't make Allah real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 No, it means it is still here since inception. Which church has been here since the inception? The Coptic or Ethiopian churches might be your best bet. Why do you suppose that the CoC calls itself the Restoration Movement? Why would one have to restore something that has never been destored? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Hmmmm ... so I assume in your life you make some "willful choices" right? How do you tell between this and "non-willful choices"? Why is your choice to be on this forum right now different then your choice to reject Christ? And what makes you not deny the holocaust happened. It is a similar thing in my case in regards to Christianity I made a choice to accept the evidence, which is my point. Ultimately we are responsible for how deep and earnestly we dig. Some people make a decision and then avoid any future contraindications to that decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 You think so? I think some people are content to have their beliefs and leave others to have theirs. Transiently, maybe, but only while distracted with other things. I know many people who are content, not distracted, and so leave others to their beliefs. It is a sign of deep contentment not to feel driven to evangelize. You may not know such people because your experiences have only been with people putting their views on others. Part of this will be your immersion in the Evangelical community where the charge is to do so. Part of it may be just that like attracts like. People who are content with their beliefs don't need to argue them when faced with other views, so you wouldn't even know they didn't agree with you. And of course, you are here. We're an opinionated bunch. There are some quiet confident here. Can you name them? Hint: they aren't in the threads you like to participate in. Overall, your perspective is extremely limited by your own personality and religious goals. If someday you learn to be a listener instead of an Evangelizer, you will begin to notice those of quiet confidence. I can recognize quiet confidence and still evangelize. The recognition of the former does not preclude the action of the latter. I have found that I'm limited as to where I can post, but by all means point out to me those posts you think are evidence of quite confidence. I think I understand your perspective. Maybe. Those are bold words. Can you demonstrate that you understand Legion's perspective to Legion's satisfaction? Phanta What is predicated on my demonstrating anything to Legion? He wished I could. I believed I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Changing ones mind to accept Christianity often requires rejecting years of conditioning as well. So the fact that we all think we have reasons for not changing our mind does not shed much light on the subject. You are right, though, rejecting Christ is a choice. This is a strange statement which implies that Christianity something other than a form of conditioning. Is that what you meant? Since most people in this country were brought up with Christianity I submit that it is mostly the other way around, that it must take years to throw it off. There are millions who grow up in other countries not knowing Christianity who accept Christ so I don't think your reasoning based on conditioning is making a very strong point. Yes, we can be conditioned. Yes, we can choose not to follow that conditioning. I don't care if a billion people think something is legit and it "works for them". If I think its bogus and doesn't agree with reason and morality, I am throwing it out. If you call that rejecting Christ, feel free. It is certainly possible to take a live and let live attitude and leave people alone to believe whatever they think suits them. In a world with so many people with such varied beliefs, where we must all live together, I think this is the most sensible way to live. I understand what you've done. I'm just pointing out that it was a choice. Some here seem to think it wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Some here seem to think it wasn't. No, it wasn't a choice. Your imbecilic naïveté is showing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I made a consciouses choice to not believe based on the evidence. Which is my point. Ultimately you have to face the fact that is was a choice. Do you hav some awareness of how you feel when you try to believe or be with something contrary to the evidence? If so, can you share what happens to you? How do you feel? What thought processes manifest? Do these things have an impact on your daily quality of life? Phanta Yes, I choose not to believe, and yes this impacts my daily life. I don't understand where you are going with this to be honest. My point is that we can not pretend we are not responsible for our choices. We are. I would contend if a person pretends they are not then they may be trying to protect themselves from a choice they may not really believe was the right one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Hmmmm ... so I assume in your life you make some "willful choices" right? How do you tell between this and "non-willful choices"? Why is your choice to be on this forum right now different then your choice to reject Christ? And what makes you not deny the holocaust happened. It is a similar thing in my case in regards to Christianity I made a choice to accept the evidence, which is my point. Ultimately we are responsible for how deep and earnestly we dig. Some people make a decision and then avoid any future contraindications to that decision. Fuck you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 If something is working it is proof of something to them. If something is working for millions it is proof of something for millions. If millions testify as to the veracity of something this is a form of evidence. All evidence should be taken in consideration when making our choices. I agree with this. Placebo's for instance are a legitimate cure for many aliments, even though they cannot be understood literally as the pharmaceutical it is believed to be. It nonetheless should not be dismissed as illegitimate because it in fact works. It's just truth of a different kind, than a scientific one. Yes of course, but it is obvious that empirical evidence is not the only form of valid evidence. I'm pretty sure I stated on here in some other thread that there are basically four forms of evidence: empirical, probabilistic, logical and testimonial. I consider all the evidence. Is there faith also in my life? Yes, of course, but it is rational faith. We all have faith in our life. Even the "skeptic". I am of course making a point about the power of faith and belief, and misconstruing their symbols as literal scientific facts. BTW, I saw you abandoned the faith topic after I responded to you. Curious choice for a man of faith. You may notice I get plenty of responses to my comments. I don't always reply because often I answer multiple posts in one post. Which post do you think I abandoned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Changing ones mind to accept Christianity often requires rejecting years of conditioning as well. So the fact that we all think we have reasons for not changing our mind does not shed much light on the subject. You are right, though, rejecting Christ is a choice. This is a strange statement which implies that Christianity something other than a form of conditioning. Is that what you meant? Since most people in this country were brought up with Christianity I submit that it is mostly the other way around, that it must take years to throw it off. There are millions who grow up in other countries not knowing Christianity who accept Christ so I don't think your reasoning based on conditioning is making a very strong point. Yes, we can be conditioned. Yes, we can choose not to follow that conditioning. So, you agree that Christianity is conditioning, like every other system. What is this big deal with the word "choice" that you and other Christians have? You want to depict us all as deliberately making a choice to reject Christ even when very plainly that is not the case. Then again, you know our minds better than we do, evidently. I understand what you've done. I'm just pointing out that it was a choice. Some here seem to think it wasn't. No, you really don't understand. It is arrogant to assume that you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I made a consciouses choice to not believe based on the evidence. Which is my point. Ultimately you have to face the fact that is was a choice. So are you saying you reject evidence in order to believe, or that you have found a way to reconcile accepting evidence with your faith? I'm truly curious to know. Is it faith through denial, or transcending seeing the symbols literally into a different plane than literal facts on the ground? No, I accept evidence in order to believe. I look at the picture writ large. My faith is rational. Your faith in your dentist is not based on the fact you understand dentistry as well as he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Clearly, millions of people have found it not to be a false hope. No offense, but your view is myopic. Just because you have made a choice to believe He is impossible and does not exists does not make it so. A choice? Did you choose to stop believing in Santa Claus? Yes, that was my point. Interesting. Most of us simply had too many facts regarding Santa to be able to sustain belief after about age 6. Can you choose to believe in the man in the red suit that delivers Christmas gifts by flying sleigh driven by magical reindeer again? If the evidence is adequate yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 My faith is rational. ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Changing ones mind to accept Christianity often requires rejecting years of conditioning as well. Really. How so? Here in the USA, we aren't conditioned to reject Christianity. Society is saturated with it. World <> USA So the fact that we all think we have reasons for not changing our mind does not shed much light on the subject. You are right, though, rejecting Christ is a choice. You missed my point. I didn't choose to become a Christian. I was brought up as one. I continued my indoctrination as a teen. I studied and accepted further Biblical "Truth" and was "as clay molded by the Potter." It was years later that I could no longer call myself a Christian due to experiences and contradictory evidence which I could not ignore. I lost my faith even though I desperately tried to continue in my belief. I didn't choose to go through that. My faith became like a rope made of sand with nothing left to cling to. You chose to leave Christianity based on your choices to reject the evidence. There are rational intelligent people who study the subject deeply and came to different conclusions. You choose to consider them wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 If millions testify as to the veracity of something this is a form of evidence. So you'll also be advocating for Islam here then. No. It's a myth that believing in any religion is equal to believing in any other religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 No. It's a myth that believing in any religion is equal to believing in any other religion. Your brain is a myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 You chose to leave Christianity based on your choices to reject the evidence. . the 'evidence' is lacking. Show me PROOF that this one dead guy, unlike all the rest of the sum total of humanity, didn't stay dead, and there'll be something to talk about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Exactly. What BDP said. The problem was for me: no evidence. None. And I found the holes in the so-called arguments. The reasoning and arguments for God's existence are all flawed. There are no evidence. So the choice is either to believe against all evidence, i.e. believe in Santa even though you know he doesn't exist, or realize that Santa and God are of the same kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 If millions testify as to the veracity of something this is a form of evidence. So you'll also be advocating for Islam here then. No. It's a myth that believing in any religion is equal to believing in any other religion. Even "if millions testify as to the veracity of" this system of belief? Seems you want your cake while you eat it to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Clearly, millions of people have found it not to be a false hope. No offense, but your view is myopic. Just because you have made a choice to believe He is impossible and does not exists does not make it so. Serious question here: How does one choose to believe in the existence of something one knows does not exist? The choice I pointed out was the choice to believe He is impossible, which is to say the choice was one to reject the evidence. For example: Why don't you choose to believe in Allah? Is is because you know Allah is not real, or is it just because you feel spiteful toward Allah? I don't worship allah because my God(the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob) tells me not to. Jos 24:15 (15) And if it seems evil to you to serve Jehovah, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served Beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you live. But as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah. Oh and contrary-wise just because you "choose" to believe in BibleGod doesn't make BibleGod real, just like those millions of folks that find refuge in Allah don't make Allah real. Good point. I'm pretty sure I've explained why I believe all ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I'm as tired of myself as everyone else must be - so to sum up, dead people stay dead and anything that OC or end or anyone else has to say is meaningless because it's built on the absurd fantasy that, one time, in a far off distant time and place, one guy didn't stay dead. Belief in that is irrational and always will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 You chose to leave Christianity based on your choices to reject the evidence. . the 'evidence' is lacking. Show me PROOF that this one dead guy, unlike all the rest of the sum total of humanity, didn't stay dead, and there'll be something to talk about. Just to be clear. Do you mean evidence? Proof really only applies to mathematics in the strictest sense. One can not prove many things in history, but one can show evidence pro or con. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brakeman Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 CLay, Do you have the holy spirit within you? If so how long has he been within you? Is the holy spirit powerful? Does he have limitations? Has the holy spirit ever worked any very obvious miracles while within you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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