On Changing Minds

[bdp]

Just because you have made a choice to believe He is impossible and does not exists does not make it so.

 

Just because you choose to believe in your mythical deity doesn't make it real. And something 'working' for someone isn't proof of veracity.

[agnosticator]

As a Christian I'm commanded by my Lord to spread the Gospel. I obey gladly and unconditionally. That said, I do not have the ability to change people's minds. I can only speak what I believe to be the truth. People make their own choice.

 

The problem in our society is the illusion of people freely making their own choices when it comes to Christianity. We are conditioned to accept it as Truth from an early age. In order to change our own minds, we have to dig for answers while wading through a sea of Christian dogma. It is difficult to change our minds, let alone even realize we should when we are sheep.

 

You are attempting to change minds where your message has already been thought through and rejected. To try anyway, is intrusive and either ignorant or callous on your part.

[StevoMuso]

Clearly, millions of people have found it not to be a false hope. No offense, but your view is myopic. Just because you have made a choice to believe He is impossible and does not exists does not make it so.

There was a time, not too long ago, when millions of people believed the earth was flat - this did not make it true. After Copernicus there were still groups of people who defended the "flat earth" doctrine (yes, doctrine - because it was the Church fighting for the Biblical "flat earth" dogma) in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

Question to you OrdinaryClay: Did you "make a choice" to stop believing in a flat earth? Or did you see the photographs taken from space? I've used the "flat earth" analogy to illustrate to you how ridiculous it is for you to keep on defending Christianity - especially on this forum.

 

You will have as much success defending the Christian myth on this forum as you would have if you defended the flat earth myth on a NASA forum. It's not a question of "choice" or "faith" - it's a question of fact.

[OrdinaryClay]

People, all people, try and change other people's minds because they believe something. Why? Maybe a sense of obligation, group politics, or a need for commiseration.

You think so? I think some people are content to have their beliefs and leave others to have theirs.

Transiently, maybe, but only while distracted with other things.

 

As a Christian I'm commanded by my Lord to spread the Gospel.

Man, I wish you could see from my perspective how uptight and misguided this sounds.

I think I understand your perspective.

 

I obey gladly and unconditionally.

So you've never questioned being compelled to bring some message, whatever the message, to other people?

Of course, but your question has nothing to do with my statement. Yes, I can be gladly obedient of one thing, and skeptical of another. Maybe you were trying to make another point?

[OrdinaryClay]

Clearly, millions of people have found it not to be a false hope. No offense, but your view is myopic. Just because you have made a choice to believe He is impossible and does not exists does not make it so.

A choice?

 

Did you choose to stop believing in Santa Claus?

Yes, that was my point.

[OrdinaryClay]

As a Christian I'm commanded by my Lord to spread the Gospel. I obey gladly and unconditionally. That said, I do not have the ability to change people's minds. I can only speak what I believe to be the truth. People make their own choice.

 

The problem in our society is the illusion of people freely making their own choices when it comes to Christianity. We are conditioned to accept it as Truth from an early age. In order to change our own minds, we have to dig for answers while wading through a sea of Christian dogma. It is difficult to change our minds, let alone even realize we should when we are sheep.

Changing ones mind to accept Christianity often requires rejecting years of conditioning as well. So the fact that we all think we have reasons for not changing our mind does not shed much light on the subject. You are right, though, rejecting Christ is a choice.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

As a Christian I'm commanded by my Lord to spread the Gospel. I obey gladly and unconditionally. That said, I do not have the ability to change people's minds. I can only speak what I believe to be the truth. People make their own choice.

 

The problem in our society is the illusion of people freely making their own choices when it comes to Christianity. We are conditioned to accept it as Truth from an early age. In order to change our own minds, we have to dig for answers while wading through a sea of Christian dogma. It is difficult to change our minds, let alone even realize we should when we are sheep.

Changing ones mind to accept Christianity often requires rejecting years of conditioning as well. So the fact that we all think we have reasons for not changing our mind does not shed much light on the subject. You are right, though, rejecting Christ is a choice.

Rejecting Christ,a choice, now in some instances you might be right. I am tempted though to cry a blanket statement. Like for me is wasn't really much of a choice. I could have denied what I realized, and continued to a be a believer, or I could have just accepted it like I did, and let it go. It wasn't a willful choice.

[OrdinaryClay]

Clearly, millions of people have found it not to be a false hope. No offense, but your view is myopic.

Why is it myopic?

Because millions find the evidence adequate for it not to be a false hope.

[OrdinaryClay]

Just because you have made a choice to believe He is impossible and does not exists does not make it so.

 

Just because you choose to believe in your mythical deity doesn't make it real. And something 'working' for someone isn't proof of veracity.

If something is working it is proof of something to them. If something is working for millions it is proof of something for millions. If millions testify as to the veracity of something this is a form of evidence. All evidence should be taken in consideration when making our choices.

[OrdinaryClay]

Clearly, millions of people have found it not to be a false hope. No offense, but your view is myopic. Just because you have made a choice to believe He is impossible and does not exists does not make it so.

There was a time, not too long ago, when millions of people believed the earth was flat - this did not make it true. After Copernicus there were still groups of people who defended the "flat earth" doctrine (yes, doctrine - because it was the Church fighting for the Biblical "flat earth" dogma) in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

Question to you OrdinaryClay: Did you "make a choice" to stop believing in a flat earth? Or did you see the photographs taken from space? I've used the "flat earth" analogy to illustrate to you how ridiculous it is for you to keep on defending Christianity - especially on this forum.

 

You will have as much success defending the Christian myth on this forum as you would have if you defended the flat earth myth on a NASA forum. It's not a question of "choice" or "faith" - it's a question of fact.

Yes, I chose to not believe in a flat earth. Just like many physicists chose not to believe in the aether at the turn of the century. The evidence led them to make that choice.

[OrdinaryClay]

As a Christian I'm commanded by my Lord to spread the Gospel. I obey gladly and unconditionally. That said, I do not have the ability to change people's minds. I can only speak what I believe to be the truth. People make their own choice.

 

The problem in our society is the illusion of people freely making their own choices when it comes to Christianity. We are conditioned to accept it as Truth from an early age. In order to change our own minds, we have to dig for answers while wading through a sea of Christian dogma. It is difficult to change our minds, let alone even realize we should when we are sheep.

Changing ones mind to accept Christianity often requires rejecting years of conditioning as well. So the fact that we all think we have reasons for not changing our mind does not shed much light on the subject. You are right, though, rejecting Christ is a choice.

Rejecting Christ,a choice, now in some instances you might be right. I am tempted though to cry a blanket statement. Like for me is wasn't really much of a choice. I could have denied what I realized, and continued to a be a believer, or I could have just accepted it like I did, and let it go. It wasn't a willful choice.

Hmmmm ... so I assume in your life you make some "willful choices" right? How do you tell between this and "non-willful choices"? Why is your choice to be on this forum right now different then your choice to reject Christ?

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

As a Christian I'm commanded by my Lord to spread the Gospel. I obey gladly and unconditionally. That said, I do not have the ability to change people's minds. I can only speak what I believe to be the truth. People make their own choice.

 

The problem in our society is the illusion of people freely making their own choices when it comes to Christianity. We are conditioned to accept it as Truth from an early age. In order to change our own minds, we have to dig for answers while wading through a sea of Christian dogma. It is difficult to change our minds, let alone even realize we should when we are sheep.

Changing ones mind to accept Christianity often requires rejecting years of conditioning as well. So the fact that we all think we have reasons for not changing our mind does not shed much light on the subject. You are right, though, rejecting Christ is a choice.

Rejecting Christ,a choice, now in some instances you might be right. I am tempted though to cry a blanket statement. Like for me is wasn't really much of a choice. I could have denied what I realized, and continued to a be a believer, or I could have just accepted it like I did, and let it go. It wasn't a willful choice.

Hmmmm ... so I assume in your life you make some "willful choices" right? How do you tell between this and "non-willful choices"? Why is your choice to be on this forum right now different then your choice to reject Christ?

And what makes you not deny the holocaust happened. It is a similar thing in my case in regards to Christianity

[Phanta]

People, all people, try and change other people's minds because they believe something. Why? Maybe a sense of obligation, group politics, or a need for commiseration.

You think so? I think some people are content to have their beliefs and leave others to have theirs.

Transiently, maybe, but only while distracted with other things.

 

I know many people who are content, not distracted, and so leave others to their beliefs. It is a sign of deep contentment not to feel driven to evangelize.

 

You may not know such people because your experiences have only been with people putting their views on others. Part of this will be your immersion in the Evangelical community where the charge is to do so. Part of it may be just that like attracts like. People who are content with their beliefs don't need to argue them when faced with other views, so you wouldn't even know they didn't agree with you. And of course, you are here. We're an opinionated bunch. There are some quiet confident here. Can you name them? Hint: they aren't in the threads you like to participate in.

 

Overall, your perspective is extremely limited by your own personality and religious goals. If someday you learn to be a listener instead of an Evangelizer, you will begin to notice those of quiet confidence.

 

As a Christian I'm commanded by my Lord to spread the Gospel.

Man, I wish you could see from my perspective how uptight and misguided this sounds.

I think I understand your perspective.

 

Maybe. Those are bold words. Can you demonstrate that you understand Legion's perspective to Legion's satisfaction?

 

Phanta

[Deva]

Changing ones mind to accept Christianity often requires rejecting years of conditioning as well. So the fact that we all think we have reasons for not changing our mind does not shed much light on the subject. You are right, though, rejecting Christ is a choice.

 

This is a strange statement which implies that Christianity something other than a form of conditioning. Is that what you meant?

 

Since most people in this country were brought up with Christianity I submit that it is mostly the other way around, that it must take years to throw it off.

 

I don't care if a billion people think something is legit and it "works for them". If I think its bogus and doesn't agree with reason and morality, I am throwing it out. If you call that rejecting Christ, feel free.

 

It is certainly possible to take a live and let live attitude and leave people alone to believe whatever they think suits them. In a world with so many people with such varied beliefs, where we must all live together, I think this is the most sensible way to live.

[OrdinaryClay]

Rejecting Christ,a choice, now in some instances you might be right. I am tempted though to cry a blanket statement. Like for me is wasn't really much of a choice. I could have denied what I realized, and continued to a be a believer, or I could have just accepted it like I did, and let it go. It wasn't a willful choice.

Hmmmm ... so I assume in your life you make some "willful choices" right? How do you tell between this and "non-willful choices"? Why is your choice to be on this forum right now different then your choice to reject Christ?

And what makes you not deny the holocaust happened. It is a similar thing in my case in regards to Christianity

I made a consciouses choice to not believe based on the evidence. Which is my point. Ultimately you have to face the fact that is was a choice.

[Phanta]

I made a consciouses choice to not believe based on the evidence. Which is my point. Ultimately you have to face the fact that is was a choice.

 

Do you hav some awareness of how you feel when you try to believe or be with something contrary to the evidence? If so, can you share what happens to you? How do you feel? What thought processes manifest? Do these things have an impact on your daily quality of life?

 

Phanta

[Antlerman]

If something is working it is proof of something to them. If something is working for millions it is proof of something for millions. If millions testify as to the veracity of something this is a form of evidence. All evidence should be taken in consideration when making our choices.

I agree with this. Placebo's for instance are a legitimate cure for many aliments, even though they cannot be understood literally as the pharmaceutical it is believed to be. It nonetheless should not be dismissed as illegitimate because it in fact works. It's just truth of a different kind, than a scientific one.

 

I am of course making a point about the power of faith and belief, and misconstruing their symbols as literal scientific facts. BTW, I saw you abandoned the faith topic after I responded to you. Curious choice for a man of faith.

 

There was a time, not too long ago, when millions of people believed the earth was flat - this did not make it true. After Copernicus there were still groups of people who defended the "flat earth" doctrine (yes, doctrine - because it was the Church fighting for the Biblical "flat earth" dogma) in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Actually this is being shown to be an untrue revision of history. The church nor any scholar ever thought the earth was flat. It got added into American history books from a myth started by Washington Irving in the 1800's:

 

The first accounts of the legend have been traced to the 1830s. In 1828, Washington Irving's highly romanticised and inaccurate biography, The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus,[6] was published and mistaken by many for a scholarly work.[7] In Book III, Chapter II of this biography, Irving gave a largely fictional account of the meetings of a commission established by the Spanish sovereigns to examine Columbus's proposals. One of his more fanciful embellishments was a highly unlikely tale that the more ignorant and bigoted members on the commission had raised scriptural objections to Columbus's assertions that the Earth was spherical.[8]

 

But in reality, the issue in the 1490s was not the shape of the Earth, but its size, and the position of the east coast of Asia. Historical estimates from Ptolemy onwards placed the coast of Asia about 180° east of the Canary Islands.[9]. Columbus adopted an earlier (and rejected) distance of 225°, added 28° (based on Marco Polo’s travels), and then placed Japan another 30° further east. Starting from Cape St. Vincent in Portugal, Columbus made Eurasia stretch 283° to the east, leaving the Atlantic as only 77° wide. Since he planned to leave from the Canaries (9° further west), his trip to Japan would only have to cover 68° of longitude.[10]

 

I first learned about this about 10 years ago in fact on NASA's site under one of their Astronomy Pic's of the day. Someone re-posted this in that Wiki article I quoted from above. What I find fascinating is how I grew up believe this was fact and quoting it as such myself, when the only evidence I looked at was that others believed it and it was taught to me. There's a lesson in there somewhere for some here...

[Antlerman]

I made a consciouses choice to not believe based on the evidence. Which is my point. Ultimately you have to face the fact that is was a choice.

So are you saying you reject evidence in order to believe, or that you have found a way to reconcile accepting evidence with your faith? I'm truly curious to know. Is it faith through denial, or transcending seeing the symbols literally into a different plane than literal facts on the ground?

[Shyone]

Clearly, millions of people have found it not to be a false hope. No offense, but your view is myopic. Just because you have made a choice to believe He is impossible and does not exists does not make it so.

A choice?

 

Did you choose to stop believing in Santa Claus?

Yes, that was my point.

Interesting. Most of us simply had too many facts regarding Santa to be able to sustain belief after about age 6.

 

Can you choose to believe in the man in the red suit that delivers Christmas gifts by flying sleigh driven by magical reindeer again?

 

Maybe that's the difference between you and "us" (or at least me). I can't choose my beliefs. I can tentatively "accept" something depending on the evidence and the consistency with what I already know, but gods don't fit into that paradigm.

[agnosticator]

Changing ones mind to accept Christianity often requires rejecting years of conditioning as well.

 

Really. How so? Here in the USA, we aren't conditioned to reject Christianity. Society is saturated with it.

 

 

 

So the fact that we all think we have reasons for not changing our mind does not shed much light on the subject. You are right, though, rejecting Christ is a choice.

 

You missed my point. I didn't choose to become a Christian. I was brought up as one. I continued my indoctrination as a teen. I studied and accepted further Biblical "Truth" and was "as clay molded by the Potter." It was years later that I could no longer call myself a Christian due to experiences and contradictory evidence which I could not ignore. I lost my faith even though I desperately tried to continue in my belief. I didn't choose to go through that. My faith became like a rope made of sand with nothing left to cling to.

[StevoMuso]

There was a time, not too long ago, when millions of people believed the earth was flat - this did not make it true. After Copernicus there were still groups of people who defended the "flat earth" doctrine (yes, doctrine - because it was the Church fighting for the Biblical "flat earth" dogma) in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Actually this is being shown to be an untrue revision of history. The church nor any scholar ever thought the earth was flat. It got added into American history books from a myth started by Washington Irving in the 1800's:

Thanks for the correction. Perhaps I should have used a less ambiguous subject to make my point to OrdinaryClay. The point I was trying to get across is that defending Christianity is as pointless as trying to defend a theory that the earth is flat. We all know that the earth is spherical because there is overwhelming evidence to support this theory. Maintaining that the globe is flat in the light of this evidence would be insane. And it's the same with Christianity. The evidence for it being a badly contrived hoax is overwhelming and defending the lie is just as insane as trying to prove that the earth is flat.

[bdp]

Just because you have made a choice to believe He is impossible and does not exists does not make it so.

 

Just because you choose to believe in your mythical deity doesn't make it real. And something 'working' for someone isn't proof of veracity.

If something is working it is proof of something to them.

 

 

TO THEM. Subjective experience, NOT absolute truth.

[Ouroboros]

Changing ones mind to accept Christianity often requires rejecting years of conditioning as well. So the fact that we all think we have reasons for not changing our mind does not shed much light on the subject. You are right, though, rejecting Christ is a choice.

I became Christian as a kid in Sweden. Sweden is predominately agnostic/atheistic. Only two or three of my classmates from first grade and up were active in any kind of church, the rest complete unbelievers. I was the only strong evangelical in class. That was my experience for 10 years.

 

And I continued to believe against society's influence. Sweden, especially at that time, was strongly socialistic. More than 70% of the citizens voted for the Socialist Democratic Party, and 5 to 10% voted for the Communists. I was in extreme minority. But I had my family, they all were Christian too.

 

Then I moved to USA, one of the top five Christian countries in the world (at least according to statistics). 90% profess to be religious. Here, I lost my faith, against the majority (again).

 

It is much harder to be an atheist in America than to be a Christian. It didn't take me years of rejecting conditioning to become a Christian. But it didn't take years of rejecting Christianity to become a non-Christian either.

 

Your views and understanding of things are extremely wrong. Why are you even trying to talk to us when every word that you write are misrepresenting us and our experiences? Do you seriously think that your method will somehow give results? You're using a method that pushes us farther away. Why? Will Jesus reward you for being asinine?

[bdp]

“I can’t believe THAT!” said Alice.

“Can’t you?” said the Queen in a pitying tone. “Try again: draw a long breath, and shut your eyes.”

Alice laughed. “There’s no use trying,” she said, “one can’t believe impossible things.”

“I daresay you haven’t had much practice,” said the Queen. “When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why sometimes I believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!”

[Legion]

Clay I am one of those many people who desperately wants to better understand myself and the world around me. I think this entails that I am constantly learning, and that I focus on changing my own mind. Speaking with you here has solidified this inclination in me.