Ouroboros Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I have rational faith because of evidence. I can see your point. You believe because you've seen things out of the ordinary, and then you try really hard to fit the arguments to your belief. I have never seen a miracle, and I don't find the arguments for God or Christianity convincing at all. I still find them contradictory, convoluted, and intentionally twisted to fit the belief rather than reversed. I guess we'll never get beyond that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 God seeks fellowship with us for our spiritual benefit. Which is more a feeling than thoughts or rationality. I never said it wasn't important to me. I said I would have worshiped Him no matter what had happened. Okay. I think we've reached a point were we really can't move beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brakeman Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 So clay, when you browse through the new testament and you read of jesus or one of the disciples healing someone, what do you think was their criteria on selecting people to heal? God's glorification. Joh 9:3 (3) Jesus answered, Neither has this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God might be revealed in him. Hmm, that's not much of an answer is it? god could have been glorified with just one healing a day or of six. As such, glorification does not fit the definition of criteria. I mean god would be just as glorified by healing one person as six thousand, wouldn't he? I don't know. Ask Him. I did and I got no answer... surprised? Since god would get the glory of anybody he healed that is not a criteria. So why do christians not heal lots of people? Boy that'd sure nip this 'ol atheism thing in the bud wouldn't it? Did jesus not command for christians to go forth and perform miracles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 My view is that God's Middle Knowledge allows Him to make a choice in which world He actualized so as to maximize good while minimizing evil in a free willed world. Then God is not fully omniscient. He doesn't know all the facts, only some. And he's guessing the outcome. Middle Knowledge is part of God's omniscience. It is His knowledge of all true counterfactuals,i.e. what would have happened had X chose B instead of C. His omniscience includes more then Middle Knowledge. This removes the logical paradox from the Problem of Evil. I don't see how. God is able. God is willing. But evil still persists. This is not a logical paradox. Free Will in other words are the Ultimate Good. Free will is neither good nor bad. It is a characteristic of His creation. The actions taken by His free willed creation result in evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 7, 2010 Author Share Posted March 7, 2010 Science and mathematics is where I have spent most of my time. I also have interest in Philosophy and History. I wish you the best of luck in your continued studies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Free will is neither good nor bad. It is a characteristic of His creation. The actions taken by His free willed creation result in evil. Didn't he know how it would turn out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Middle Knowledge is part of God's omniscience. It is His knowledge of all true counterfactuals,i.e. what would have happened had X chose B instead of C. His omniscience includes more then Middle Knowledge. Then you really don't understand the problem. This is not a logical paradox. Again, it only shows that you don't understand the problem. Free will is neither good nor bad. It is a characteristic of His creation. The actions taken by His free willed creation result in evil. Free Will is better than God taking care of Evil. Hence, Free Will is more important than taking care of Evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 My view is that God's Middle Knowledge allows Him to make a choice in which world He actualized so as to maximize good while minimizing evil in a free willed world. There is still an enormous amount of suffering and premature death from natural "evil" alone. Too bad He couldn't do a better job at the helm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoMuso Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Science and mathematics is where I have spent most of my time. I also have interest in Philosophy and History. You are studying these subjects? Cool. Won't be too long now and you can change your funny Bible/Cross picture on your profile to the normal one for atheists Nothing like knowledge/education to open your mind to the things Christians can only "see dimly". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I think it's fairly obvious now that it's impossible to change someone's mind about religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Free will is neither good nor bad. It is a characteristic of His creation. The actions taken by His free willed creation result in evil. Didn't he know how it would turn out? Yes, and how alternatives would have turned out. His Middle Knowledge allows Him to know both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Free will is neither good nor bad. It is a characteristic of His creation. The actions taken by His free willed creation result in evil. Didn't he know how it would turn out? Yes, and how alternatives would have turned out. His Middle Knowledge allows Him to know both. Knowing "how alternatives would have turned out" are nothing but knowing potential outcomes. A chess player knows potential outcomes, but it doesn't mean that he knows which one will actually happen. In other words, you are presenting a God who knows all the chess moves, but doesn't know which move actually will be taken. Or put it this way, you are talking about an omniscience without prescience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I think it's fairly obvious now that it's impossible to change someone's mind about religion. But this one has definitely been entertaining! Jolly good fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I think it's fairly obvious now that it's impossible to change someone's mind about religion. But this one has definitely been entertaining! Jolly good fun! I just wanted to answer the original question. It's just amazing how crazy some people are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoMuso Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I think it's fairly obvious now that it's impossible to change someone's mind about religion. But this one has definitely been entertaining! Jolly good fun! I just wanted to answer the original question. It's just amazing how crazy some people are. I think we can change someone's mind regarding religion. I was a full-time missionary, worship leader for 23 years, studied and qualified in Apologetics, Biblical studies, Christian counseling - the works. In fact I was probably even more annoyingly obtuse than our beloved Clay. But against all odds my mind was changed about religion and in those days I didn't have access to the Internet and only knew one person who said he was an atheist (and I thought he was nuts). On top of all this I live behind the Zion Curtain in South Africa - we make the Bible Belt in the USA look like a bunch of agnostics. And I'm pretty sure there are others on this forum who had their religious minds changed - that's why it's called the EX-C site. There's hope - even for OrdinaryClay and End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Free will is neither good nor bad. It is a characteristic of His creation. The actions taken by His free willed creation result in evil. Didn't he know how it would turn out? Yes, and how alternatives would have turned out. His Middle Knowledge allows Him to know both. Knowing "how alternatives would have turned out" are nothing but knowing potential outcomes. A chess player knows potential outcomes, but it doesn't mean that he knows which one will actually happen. In other words, you are presenting a God who knows all the chess moves, but doesn't know which move actually will be taken. Or put it this way, you are talking about an omniscience without prescience. No, God knows all potential worlds(moves), and then chooses to actualize one. His choice could be based on picking the one with the minimum amount of evil, hence the no logical paradox. This allows Him to be omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent with no logical contradiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I think it's fairly obvious now that it's impossible to change someone's mind about religion. But this one has definitely been entertaining! Jolly good fun! I just wanted to answer the original question. It's just amazing how crazy some people are. I think we can change someone's mind regarding religion. I was a full-time missionary, worship leader for 23 years, studied and qualified in Apologetics, Biblical studies, Christian counseling - the works. In fact I was probably even more annoyingly obtuse than our beloved Clay. But against all odds my mind was changed about religion and in those days I didn't have access to the Internet and only knew one person who said he was an atheist (and I thought he was nuts). On top of all this I live behind the Zion Curtain in South Africa - we make the Bible Belt in the USA look like a bunch of agnostics. After all those years of study one day you just decided it was not true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 No, God knows all potential worlds(moves), and then chooses to actualize one. His choice could be based on picking the one with the minimum amount of evil, hence the no logical paradox. This allows Him to be omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent with no logical contradiction. I see you are waffling around on this one with "could be". Who knows, right? What is the "minimum amount of evil?" Why would a good God ever pick one with any evil? You may continue to pretend to know the mind of God - great entertainment value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I made a consciouses choice to not believe based on the evidence. Which is my point. Ultimately you have to face the fact that is was a choice. So are you saying you reject evidence in order to believe, or that you have found a way to reconcile accepting evidence with your faith? I'm truly curious to know. Is it faith through denial, or transcending seeing the symbols literally into a different plane than literal facts on the ground? No, I accept evidence in order to believe. I look at the picture writ large. My faith is rational. Your faith in your dentist is not based on the fact you understand dentistry as well as he does. This would pick up with the other discussion. I don't consider the trust shown to the dentist to be a matter of faith, at least not in any way comparable to what is known as religious faith. I'd call that Faith, with a capital F. Faith in God, is nothing at all like faith in a dentist. As Tillich would call it, an Ultimate Concern. Dentists are not a matter of Ultimate Concern for a human (unless of course that dentist were a Nazi with a drill used for something really terrible)... So do you start with Evidence for your matters of Ultimate Concern? Or is there more than just a scientific approach to Faith, with a capital F? Does it begin with evidence, or something existential? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoMuso Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 After all those years of study one day you just decided it was not true? As we have all said repeatedly in this thread - it was not a decision. It was more like a revelation - a removal of the blinkers of faith. I didn't "decide" it was not true - I "found out" it wasn't true. There is a HUGE difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 No, God knows all potential worlds(moves), and then chooses to actualize one. Determinism then. Calvin was right. His choice could be based on picking the one with the minimum amount of evil, hence the no logical paradox. Minimum amount of evil is: zero. There is not zero evil, hence God didn't pick minimum. This allows Him to be omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent with no logical contradiction. Not since evil still exists. Was it impossible for God to create world without evil? Evil is a necessary attribute of nature? Why? You say it's because of free will. But how can there be free will if God already "picked" the will we will choose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 After all those years of study one day you just decided it was not true? After years of doubt and attempts of keeping my faith (reading the Bible, praying, going to Church, asking God for more faith), one morning, after the shower, I looked into the mirror and just realized: There is not God. But to be on the safe side, I decided to pray anyway and ask God to convince me, somehow, his choice, to make me believe again. I'm still waiting... Since God picked this particular chain of events in my life, it is God's will that I'm not a believer. So why do you fight God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 After all those years of study one day you just decided it was not true? As we have all said repeatedly in this thread - it was not a decision. It was more like a revelation - a removal of the blinkers of faith. I didn't "decide" it was not true - I "found out" it wasn't true. There is a HUGE difference. A point that OC is either ignoring or can't comprehend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I made a choice to accept the evidence, which is my point. Ultimately we are responsible for how deep and earnestly we dig. Some people make a decision and then avoid any future contraindications to that decision. So then is 40 or so years of digging deep, praying, reading the bible through twice a year, reading thousands or dollars worth of commentaries and other theological tomes, going to church at least 3 times a week, getting a bible college degree with a major in Greek and Hebrew, preaching, teaching Sunday school, teaching adult classes, ministering, marrying people, burying people, and such like earnest enough? Probably not. How about if I added in a couple of years worth of begging God to restore my faith or at least not let it get even more feeble? Fuck you and your deep enough! If'n you were in the room I'd give you a bitch slap for assuming that folks here only gave this christian thing a cursory examination. By the way how deeply have you dug into Islam? Why by your criteria you could well be barking up a tree with no coon in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 After all those years of study one day you just decided it was not true? As we have all said repeatedly in this thread - it was not a decision. It was more like a revelation - a removal of the blinkers of faith. I didn't "decide" it was not true - I "found out" it wasn't true. There is a HUGE difference. I understand you. So do most of the people here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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