Ouroboros Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 I should write an algorithm regarding how the Christian handles problems with omniscience. I believe it would be recursive. The infinite regression would be proven through the innate ignorance presented by apologists. It must come from somewhere? So where does this perfect stupidity come from? From more stupidity. And where does that come from? From even more stupidity. ... I think I'll do that... Tonight. In three dimensions, it would look like a painting from M.C. Escher. Just the thought makes my head spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Now, I hate the rhetoric that says a religious belief is delusion, because it is a way too political oversimplification of the human phenomenon of Faith and symbolic representations. But this, is the first time anywhere I will say this. This statement is in fact delusional. You have a good point here Antlerman. I think the word 'delusion' applies when believers insist that their narrative has broken through into actual space, time and history. Perhaps it can be described as delusion when they start seeing their narrative as "sign" rather than "symbol" and begin applying the same language to it that science and philosophy would apply to actual "real world" narratives. In other words (And I hate to put it this way because the the "True Christian" depiction), true faith in the Tillich sense of a state of being grasped by Ultimate Concern is not delusional, but the insistence that faith can "grasp" a person through signs rather than symbols is where the delusion comes in. Thus, the phrase "I believe and understand Him with my rational faculties." is delusional because one believes that the Ultimate (a.k.a. God) can be accessed through the penultimate (rational discourse). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Now, I hate the rhetoric that says a religious belief is delusion, because it is a way too political oversimplification of the human phenomenon of Faith and symbolic representations. But this, is the first time anywhere I will say this. This statement is in fact delusional. Aha! I can notice that you're a slowly and reluctantly progressing into the dark side of the force. Beware! Hideous mind-dragons await to devour your soul... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 I believe and understand Him with my rational faculties. If you are trying to get around to making the point that I hold faith then yes I have faith. My faith is not an irrational faith. It is thought through and deeply considered. This is not faith Clay, it is false pride founded in ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Now, I hate the rhetoric that says a religious belief is delusion, because it is a way too political oversimplification of the human phenomenon of Faith and symbolic representations. But this, is the first time anywhere I will say this. This statement is in fact delusional. Aha! I can notice that you're a slowly and reluctantly progressing into the dark side of the force. Beware! Hideous mind-dragons await to devour your soul... About all He is short is the admission of Christ..lol...demote him and start the ridicule....and kick him off the payrole. I do find it quite sickening when people here it from AM that there there is a something out there....."Oh, good point AM!!!!!" "Can I touch the hem of your garment"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 9, 2010 Author Share Posted March 9, 2010 "Oh, good point AM!!!!!" "Can I touch the hem of your garment"? Well you know my position End. I think A-man sometimes has a fat head. But I agree with him here. Clay is hopeless in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 About all He is short is the admission of Christ..lol...demote him and start the ridicule....and kick him off the payrole. I do find it quite sickening when people here it from AM that there there is a something out there....."Oh, good point AM!!!!!" "Can I touch the hem of your garment"? I have a slight feeling that you misunderstood AM. Unless I'm the one who misunderstood him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 You do realize, end3, that Ouroboros was referring to the "darker" side of ATHEISM rather than a belief in Jesus? Don't you? In other words going from "Religious belief has values in its Symbolic representations" to "ALL religion is delusional." And of course, Ouroboros was being tongue in cheek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Give Odd a cigar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 About all He is short is the admission of Christ..lol...demote him and start the ridicule....and kick him off the payrole. I do find it quite sickening when people here it from AM that there there is a something out there....."Oh, good point AM!!!!!" "Can I touch the hem of your garment"? Sounds to me like someone is a little jealous because, despite having good intentions, they don't know how to get past their symbols in order communicate in a language that others that don't share that same symbolic system can find more reasonable, to both the mind and the heart. Are you thinking it's only valid if it includes your symbols? From everything I hear, that seems the case. In which you fail, and it all turns into sand in your hands. So as far as me being on the "payroll", there is no payroll. I do this for free. There are no prerequisite of doctrinal beliefs to be a moderator. Moderators are not required to be of "One Faith". If I were a Christian, I of course would withdraw from this site, as that would lack integrity to do otherwise. I'm really hard to define, as I cannot legitimately call myself a Christian, nor an atheist. It gets really complex, but I've found saying things like "post-Christian", "Trans-Christian-Atheist", "Trans-theist", etc to be better than one camp or the other. I understand the Christian religion, and all other systems of faith as about something beyond them. Same thing with humanist, rationalist, materialist, philosophies. So yes, you will hear me acknowledge the baby in the bathwater of the pre-Enlightenment mythic systems, and with good rational reasons why. And you will hear me also embrace the baby in the bathwater of reductionist philosophies, for good rational and spiritual reasons why. I cannot however claim the Christian symbols as objects of faith for myself, as participation in that system as organized belief structures would in fact fail to meet me where I am at, rationally and spirituality as a result. The same holds true for other religious systems, even though I understand them on this level as well. It is not necessary for me to be one thing or the other, either Christian or Atheist. And the thought that those are the options comes full circle back to what I said before that this will never result in the next level of growth for us. "When I was a child, I thought as a child..." Don't mistake my acknowledgment of the value of the symbols as representing something far greater than them, with a religious devotion to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 To Clay, End and any other Christian out there: What is the true function of religion in the life of a human being? That is, what is its purpose, what is its end result? How is it manifested in a person's life from day to day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 9, 2010 Author Share Posted March 9, 2010 That's all good and dandy A-man. Really. But you still have a fat head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 That's all good and dandy A-man. Really. But you still have a fat head. You know you make me feel all snuggley when you call me that.... (Hoping this will weird you out, Goatman ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 9, 2010 Author Share Posted March 9, 2010 That's all good and dandy A-man. Really. But you still have a fat head. You know you make me feel all snuggley when you call me that.... (Hoping this will weird you out, Goatman ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 That's all good and dandy A-man. Really. But you still have a fat head. You know you make me feel all snuggley when you call me that.... (Hoping this will weird you out, Goatman ). Ewe, that's gross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 That's all good and dandy A-man. Really. But you still have a fat head. You know you make me feel all snuggley when you call me that.... (Hoping this will weird you out, Goatman ). Ewe, that's gross. No, this is gross: http://english.pravda.ru/science/mysteries/12-01-2010/111621-sheep_human_face-0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 .....snipped..... Clay brings to mind the Barenaked Ladies tune "I'ts All Been Done Before". Not an original thought in there anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Now, I hate the rhetoric that says a religious belief is delusion, because it is a way too political oversimplification of the human phenomenon of Faith and symbolic representations. But this, is the first time anywhere I will say this. This statement is in fact delusional. Aha! I can notice that you're a slowly and reluctantly progressing into the dark side of the force. Beware! Hideous mind-dragons await to devour your soul... About all He is short is the admission of Christ..lol...demote him and start the ridicule....and kick him off the payrole. I do find it quite sickening when people here it from AM that there there is a something out there....."Oh, good point AM!!!!!" "Can I touch the hem of your garment"? I wish you could realize why. He (along with myself and others) doesn't worship the symbols that are supposed to point beyond themselves. Every image and every attribute that Christianity has given anyone are only symbolic representations of the Mystery. When you chose one set of symbols over another, you have made those images graven and they loose their power at that very moment to move you beyond. This is true for any religious system that holds onto their "understanding" of what the Divine is. Oddbird says it great here: You have a good point here Antlerman. I think the word 'delusion' applies when believers insist that their narrative has broken through into actual space, time and history. Perhaps it can be described as delusion when they start seeing their narrative as "sign" rather than "symbol" and begin applying the same language to it that science and philosophy would apply to actual "real world" narratives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 About all He is short is the admission of Christ..lol...demote him and start the ridicule....and kick him off the payrole. I do find it quite sickening when people here it from AM that there there is a something out there....."Oh, good point AM!!!!!" "Can I touch the hem of your garment"? Sounds to me like someone is a little jealous because, despite having good intentions, they don't know how to get past their symbols in order communicate in a language that others that don't share that same symbolic system can find more reasonable, to both the mind and the heart. Are you thinking it's only valid if it includes your symbols? From everything I hear, that seems the case. In which you fail, and it all turns into sand in your hands. So as far as me being on the "payroll", there is no payroll. I do this for free. There are no prerequisite of doctrinal beliefs to be a moderator. Moderators are not required to be of "One Faith". If I were a Christian, I of course would withdraw from this site, as that would lack integrity to do otherwise. I'm really hard to define, as I cannot legitimately call myself a Christian, nor an atheist. It gets really complex, but I've found saying things like "post-Christian", "Trans-Christian-Atheist", "Trans-theist", etc to be better than one camp or the other. I understand the Christian religion, and all other systems of faith as about something beyond them. Same thing with humanist, rationalist, materialist, philosophies. So yes, you will hear me acknowledge the baby in the bathwater of the pre-Enlightenment mythic systems, and with good rational reasons why. And you will hear me also embrace the baby in the bathwater of reductionist philosophies, for good rational and spiritual reasons why. I cannot however claim the Christian symbols as objects of faith for myself, as participation in that system as organized belief structures would in fact fail to meet me where I am at, rationally and spirituality as a result. The same holds true for other religious systems, even though I understand them on this level as well. It is not necessary for me to be one thing or the other, either Christian or Atheist. And the thought that those are the options comes full circle back to what I said before that this will never result in the next level of growth for us. "When I was a child, I thought as a child..." Don't mistake my acknowledgment of the value of the symbols as representing something far greater than them, with a religious devotion to them. Regardless of how I communicate, one has specifics, one doesn't. Your heart is not something True to follow, unless you are God Himself. You continually take your heart as the authority in your life, yet deny that it is perfect. And Clay is deluded? Your authority to claim such is your one independent experience devoid of any other evidence. And because you deny Christ, there are wannabes in your wake. And anther thing....when one of you knotheads isn't acknowledged for the exact reason why YOU left Christianity, then we Christians are thrown into an inclusive group that we ALL don't understand your particular version for denial. From my other thread...alot of you wanted to stay, pleaded to stay, yet couldn't. Could you not find the right pill to fix the problem...after all, it's all natural physical. The doc should be able to help. He understands how exact configuations of billions upon billions of cells reacting together gives the answer anyone should desire..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Your heart is not something True to follow Yes it is, it's only your religion that demonizes the 'heart.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 9, 2010 Author Share Posted March 9, 2010 Regardless of how I communicate, one has specifics, one doesn't. Your heart is not something True to follow, unless you are God Himself. You continually take your heart as the authority in your life, yet deny that it is perfect. And Clay is deluded? Your authority to claim such is your one independent experience devoid of any other evidence. And because you deny Christ, there are wannabes in your wake. And anther thing....when one of you knotheads isn't acknowledged for the exact reason why YOU left Christianity, then we Christians are thrown into an inclusive group that we ALL don't understand your particular version for denial. From my other thread...alot of you wanted to stay, pleaded to stay, yet couldn't. Could you not find the right pill to fix the problem...after all, it's all natural physical. The doc should be able to help. He understands how exact configuations of billions upon billions of cells reacting together gives the answer anyone should desire..... I'm impressed End. I believe that's the longest post you have yet to deliver. Bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 'knotheads' - I'm feelin' the love here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 And anther thing....when one of you knotheads isn't acknowledged for the exact reason why YOU left Christianity, then we Christians are thrown into an inclusive group that we ALL don't understand your particular version for denial. From my other thread...alot of you wanted to stay, pleaded to stay, yet couldn't. Could you not find the right pill to fix the problem... *Sigh* The de-conversion WAS the pill that fixed the problem. The de-conversion was THE THING that solved the conflicts and gave peace. after all, it's all natural physical. The doc should be able to help. He understands how exact configuations of billions upon billions of cells reacting together gives the answer anyone should desire..... Eh? No? I don't understand your statement. It sounds more like hyperbole than argument. Since you have God and the Holy Spirit, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that you have all knowledge at hand? So why don't you? Jesus doesn't talk to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Regardless of how I communicate, one has specifics, one doesn't. Your heart is not something True to follow, unless you are God Himself. You continually take your heart as the authority in your life, yet deny that it is perfect. And Clay is deluded? Your authority to claim such is your one independent experience devoid of any other evidence. And because you deny Christ, there are wannabes in your wake. Wannabes? Where the hell have you been? Denying the man Jesus as being a literal son of a monotheistic god is not denying Christ as to what the person symbolizes and signifies. You know what, fuck you calling us wannabes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 "Your authority to claim such is your one independent experience devoid of any other evidence." Fuck that too. his rambling is so confusing, I'm going to be finding new baseless insults in this mess all day long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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