On Changing Minds

[bdp]

Phanta, I want to be just like you when I grow up. Or maybe that should be 'if.'

[agnosticator]

I have compassion for those that it would help. You might go read 2Peter 2 in your spare time.

 

Wow. This passage has some hardcore dehumanizing language in it. Dehumanization is a major step on the path of hate toward "the enemy" Other. I'm a little surprised the Bible feeds so obviously into human hate psychology. That's pretty unholy stuff.

 

Phanta

Hate is not taught in that passage. Spiritual consequences are. I'm surprised you are surprised.

 

Dehumanizing language rouses hate in humans. That passage is full of dehumanizing language.

 

I seem to be a very surprising person to you on many counts! I'm glad I can offer you that gift. Broadening awareness in the individual of human variety in the world is good for the human collective.

 

Phanta

The hate comes from within humanity. It is the fault of the person doing the hating not the person speaking the truth. Blame shifting is disingenuous.

 

Speaking the truth about consequences can arose compassion also. People are responsible for their actions. Not telling people the consequences of their actions is wrong.

 

What actions are they, specifically? It isn't just about immorality. If it was, most would be off the hook. It's about unbelief and improper belief.

 

The writer is describing how God will deal with Apostates, those Christians who teach conflicting doctrines, and unbelievers. But the writer shows NO COMPASSION or EMPATHY for those who will suffer the consequences of deviation from correct doctrine, unbelief and loss of faith. The writer is also guilty of smugness and deliberate divisiveness. He's an enabler of God's callousness.

[agnosticator]

...If the author is not meaning to inspire dissociation, if author does not mean to further divide people, then the author writes from a place of deep ignorance of human nature.

 

Phanta

 

A very accurate assessment.

[Guest end3]

If it make you feel loved End, you should know that recently, within the last month, I went to bat for you behind the scenes with the other mods to prevent you from being permanently banned. You are here but for my graces in a sense, and because I think you have a good heart despite whatever problem you are having right now that you can't seem to control and are fomenting it towards me. I've stuck my neck out for you... so you may wish to consider that in your shitting on me here.

 

I knew what you did and I appreciate that. Hans mentioned something the other day that I had not considered. He was saying that my expectations of this site were probably off. I have thought about that for a few days and I think it is probably a good assessment. This site is admittedly inequitable to Christians and I have expected more.

[Kathlene]

Sconnor, I find it interesting that you have no problem with the concept of if God exists, he can show himself to you, and yet you dont find it acceptable at all that other people have this experience. Huh.

 

If god exists, then god knows, exactly, where to find me -- he can share with me his character and will by telling me exactly, and concisely, everything he needs me to know, himself -- this way, I can be absolutely certain, what god wants from me, and I don't have to rely on some fallible, deluded christian asshole, that makes insane, unsubstantiated, interpretive god/jesus claims

 

First and foremost -- notice what, precisely, is being said in the context of my paragraph: Although I say "if god exists, he can show himself to me" -- it is not the crux of the paragraph; It is NOT about his existence per se. It's about what deluded religionst say about god -- as if they know his will and character when they do NOT. The crux of the paragraph is about ALL the religious assholes (muslims, catholics, JWs, moromons, universalists, etc.) who tell me that they know the will and character of god but the curious thing is -- they ALL have their own, separate, idiosyncratic and contradictory interpretation of god's will and character.

 

That's because the ONLY way they think they "know" god is through their own idiosyncratic interpretation of scripture.

 

These assholes do NOT know god.

 

So to cut through the bullshit, I'll wait for god to tell me what he wants for me, exactly, so I don't have to rely on the spurious, unsubstantiated, contradictory bullshit that relgionist spew about god.

 

Furthermore, what "god experience" is the valid one? Because there are people who "experience" god -- who are told by god to kill their children.

 

Sheriff: Texas woman says God told her to kill sons

http://www.canadiancrc.com/Newspaper_Articles/CNN_Texas_woman_says_God_told_her_to_kill_sons_13MAY03.aspx

 

According to your logic this experience is proof that god exists -- right?

 

Additionally, consider the insane cult leader -- David Koresh -- of the Branch Davidians: he also made the extraordinary claim that he knew god, spoke to god, experienced god and that god was working through his life.

 

Again according to your screwy logic -- this is "proof" that god exists.

 

There are so many more examples -- how is one supposed to validate these "god experiences"? What would be the method one would use to authenticate these experiences? Do you just pick and choose the ones that make you feel good?

 

The cold hard fact of the matter is, you have NO real way of verifying if a "god experiences" is true.

 

The point is: "god experiences" come in many varieties and often contradict one another, so I've concluded god experiences are unreliable.

 

You do realize people have "experiences" that they are Napoleon?

 

Using your loopy logic these experiences are proof that Napoleon exists.

 

Can you see how your thinking is warped?

 

People who claim to have experienced god and relgionist who claim to know god solely from their idiosyncratic interpretation of scripture are specious and wholly unreliable.

 

--S.

 

Well if God does decide to show up at your door how will you know it is him?

 

Seriously though...I can see the argument about mentally ill people hearing from God and doing that ugly stuff. Are they hearing messages of love? just wondering.

 

For me personally, sure I've made big mistakes in trying to hear God. I learnt from them, and grew wiser, and through my journey of walking with God I have now a deeper understanding of what is and what is not his spirit guiding me. Sometimes I just know. Other times, Im like, I will just hold onto this and sit on it for a while and wait. That is a sign of maturity. Other times I know its just all fluff in my head. One of the best things that has made me understand heaps more is knowing that when I am walking around in confusion about something, I can bet God is not in it. His ways are peaceful. Not smooth, peaceful. I can be going through something incredibly hard and stressful, but still feel his presence and peace right in the middle of that storm.

 

How do we know we arent just walkng off in bizarre tangents in god? well that is why you are meant to connect with other christians to pray together and share your load with them. Talk with them about it. Hearing other peoples advice is always a good step in wisdom too. I dont see christians picking and choosing god experiences. I see it more in light of a relationship and getting to know god and his ways. Is some stuff in my own head and thoughts? sure. I am most certainly convinced there are others that are not my own doing or making up. I have seen far too many things to not believe in it. I once went to a church that I had only been at once before. I went up the front for prayer, and some young fellow prayed for me. I had never met him or seen him before. He prayed some amazing things over me that were specifically about something going on in my family. How did he know that stuff? I believe he was being led by god. I am talking specific stuff here, not some general airy fairy stuff anyone could mumble out. I had not even spoken to this guy.

 

I have seen your accusation at other religions and hear you on that. I personally have never been any other religion so I can't comment on other peoples experiences of God. It is an interesting point to chew over though. I only know God through Jesus. No other way. I dont have any answers about anyone else's path.

[Kathlene]

This thread is following normal developement parameters. No one has changed anyone's opinion, and it's degrading into a pissing contest. OC is a master contortionist, and will not be pinned. End is building up god points. And life on ex-c goes on.

 

Legion, I bet when you started this topic you never expected 20 something pages of replies!

 

 

And still the replies keep coming in a flurry. I think we all as a group have to come to the conclusion that we just love this place and we are addicted!! I know I am..ouch. Must stay away from the computer....

[Phanta]

Phanta, I want to be just like you when I grow up. Or maybe that should be 'if.'

 

*chuckle* I want to be just like me when I grow up, too, bdp...

[par4dcourse]

And still the replies keep coming in a flurry. I think we all as a group have to come to the conclusion that we just love this place and we are addicted!! I know I am..ouch. Must stay away from the computer....

 

True that. Like Godzilla to Tokyo.

[Sconnor]

If it make you feel loved End, you should know that recently, within the last month, I went to bat for you behind the scenes with the other mods to prevent you from being permanently banned. You are here but for my graces in a sense, and because I think you have a good heart despite whatever problem you are having right now that you can't seem to control and are fomenting it towards me. I've stuck my neck out for you... so you may wish to consider that in your shitting on me here.

 

Talk about biting (devouring the whole damn arm) the hand that feeds you.

 

It's only a matter of time before old scrambled-brains end, blows a gasket and off to his bunker of bibles and fellow gullible christians, where they can wallow in inanity and acquiescence.

 

--S.

[Shyone]

Telling someone they are wrong and will suffer consequences is the right thing to do.

 

We aren't 'wrong' for not sharing your delusion. Believe what you believe, I don't care, but don't shove your dogma in my face if I don't want it. You're only doing it to cover your own ass anyway, you don't honestly give two shits about me.

Not only are we not "wrong", but the absolute conviction that any measures are justified to "save the soul" of another person (or people) has been used to enact horrible laws and torture people to death.

 

OrdinaryClay + Power = Torquemada.

 

From IX. of the Theodosian Code:

 

"St. Augustine seems to have originated the application of the words Compel them to enter in, to religious persecution. Religious liberty he emphatically cursed: Quid est enim pejor, mors animae quam libertas erroris ? -- For which is worse, the death of the soul than the liberty of error?'" (Epistle clxvi.)

 

In 1215, the Fourth Council of the Lateran enjoined all rulers, 'as they desired to be esteemed faithful, to swear a public oath that they would labor earnestly, and to the full extent of their power, to exterminate from their dominions all those who were branded as heretics by the Church.'

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

Experience can be both good and bad evidence. We all live our lives this way. Our judicial system and historiography are founded on it. You are dealing not with experience, you are dealing with specific cases, in which you question the testimony. This is very different, and provides no foundation for your gross generalization of experience.

 

My evaluation of the evidence in total allows me to believe in Christ. As I have said many times here one must evaluate all evidence not just the parts you pick and choose.

 

You are kind of right. But I am dealing with experience, I am just referencing specific cases, for the sake of brevity. I am using specific instances to highlight the problems with using experience, which transcend the instances.

 

Answer this: Historiography is methodologically natural right, then how can experience work to prove your case, since we haven't seen people rise from the dead like Christ?

Christ was not raised by natural means. There is no physical law that says if we do such and such a body will rise from the dead. It was a supernatural event. The supernatural is detectable but not predictable. The supernatural is under the control of a free willed agent. We don't see people raised from the dead because those supernatural beings who would can not and those that can (God) do so at their will.

Ummm then, historiographical methods, can't prove the supernatural then because they are methodologically natural right. If God doesn't raise the dead now, by what reason can we assume it happened then?

Historiography does not work by recreating the event(in this case a miracle). It works by detecting the side effects of the events that happened.

 

I'm not saying God can not raise people from the dead now. I'm saying it is under the control of His free will as to when to do it.

The question is still unresolved, a natural explaination is more likly then a miracle based off the fact that we haven't seen a resurrection or one could argue a verifiable miracle now. That is for this moment ignoring the various problems. with miracles as a concept which I will not be discussed at the moment.

Hume best summed up the issue, but I know you don't like Hume. So I won't quote him.

What is more likly that a thing, happened by supernatural means, when the supernatural event in question doesn't happen now.

Another question that even could be asked, if say for example the hallucination theory of the likes of Gerd Ludemman, and Michael Goulder, or Festinger's Theory of Cognitive Dissonce fail to explain the event. Can we then say a miracle occured then. When we can't verify a miracle, now, only that we don't know what happened as of yet nowadays. By what reason can we plead a miracle 2000 years ago.

Forgive me for being tautological for a moment.

But what happened today most likly happened yesterday and will continue to happen in the future.

[Shyone]

 

Not unless his plan was to change the predicted outcome, then it would be part of the plan. But, he knew he would change it so he decided not to change it afterall, but then he did. It's all part of the plan.

 

It's funny...this sounds so much like the excuse that your prayer is either answered yes, no, or maybe later.

 

Silly.

While you're at it, contemplate that the supposed God of the OT drowned humanity. Did he know this would happen?

 

What about that fruit thingy?

 

And all of the promises the made - were they all fake? Did He know that there was no fucking way that Abraham's descendants would actually keep their land or follow the commands?

 

Exo. 32:13. Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: `I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.'

 

Deut. 28:45. All these curses will come upon you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you.

 

What? God had no clue? Hey, shit happens, right?

[Ouroboros]

What? God had no clue? Hey, shit happens, right?

It's so obvious for us who are not steeped in the religious dogma and rhetoric to see that God of the Old Testament is a completely different God than the current Christian "philosophical" God.

 

It takes a break from religion and belief in the imaginary beings to realize these things.

[Sconnor]

Well if God does decide to show up at your door how will you know it is him?

Seriously though...I can see the argument about mentally ill people hearing from God and doing that ugly stuff. Are they hearing messages of love? just wondering.

 

It's irrelevant. It does not matter if the one experiencing god is hearing a message of love or an ugly message -- both are steeped in unsubstantiated subjectivism.

 

Just because the one who is supposedly experiencing god has lovey-dovey feelings does NOT substantiate that god was part of the experience as opposed to ones deluded imagination.

 

For me personally, sure I've made big mistakes in trying to hear God.

 

How do you know?

 

How do you know that you are NOT making more mistakes in hearing god?

 

How do you know that the ones (hearing god) you consider valid are not more mistakes on your part?

 

I learnt from them, and grew wiser, and through my journey of walking with God I have now a deeper understanding of what is and what is not his spirit guiding me.

 

Bullshit. You have no idea if a spirit or god is guiding you. You have simply attributed the paths you chose all by your little lonesome, to an imaginary divine presence.

 

Sometimes I just know. Other times, Im like, I will just hold onto this and sit on it for a while and wait. That is a sign of maturity. Other times I know its just all fluff in my head.

 

Nope -- it is ALWAYS, just fluff in your head.

 

One of the best things that has made me understand heaps more is knowing that when I am walking around in confusion about something, I can bet God is not in it.

 

How do you know? You don't know. You simply constructed an imaginary "best buddy" with certain likable traits.

 

If god exists you would have NO idea if he was peaceful and good or if he was malevolent and plays havoc with his defenseless creatures. You simply gave attributes to an imaginary being that's to your liking which make you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

 

His ways are peaceful. Not smooth, peaceful. I can be going through something incredibly hard and stressful, but still feel his presence and peace right in the middle of that storm.

 

You know no such thing -- you have insanely convinced yourself, some invisible divine force was with you by attributing your own emotions and rationalizations to your imaginary god-character.

 

Let me reiterate: It's your drug of choice -- whatever. I've already concluded delusional people can convince themselves of anything. Christianity is your form of a motivational speaker, nothing but a rah, rah device to kick yourself in the butt, where you pretend something spiritual has happened, that god had his hand in it, none of which can be substantiated -- that's lunacy.

 

How do we know we arent just walkng off in bizarre tangents in god? well that is why you are meant to connect with other christians to pray together and share your load with them. Talk with them about it. Hearing other peoples advice is always a good step in wisdom too.

 

Riiiiiiight -- look how well it worked out for the Branch Davidians who got together to pray and connect?

 

How about those christians who connected and prayed together at the FLDS, where the prophet Warren Jeffs convinced his gullible flock it was perfectly acceptable to god to marry off underage kids to fat old adult males so they could marry them and have sex?

 

How about those christians who get together and pray like those JW'S who believe it is god who tells them not to give life saving blood transfusions?

 

Are you getting the point? I could go on and on and on.............

 

Let me know -- I can give many more examples of christains coming together and praying who go walkng off in bizarre tangents in god.

 

I dont see christians picking and choosing god experiences. I see it more in light of a relationship and getting to know god and his ways.

 

You DO NOT know god or his ways.

 

You can't have a relationship with your god-man because he is NOT there. He ONLY exists in your confines of your stunted imagination.

 

Again, you have simply fabricated an insanely and fantastic, massive delusion by idiosyncratically interpreting the superstitious, spurious words of scripture and by erroneously attributing emotions to your god-character. You are pretending to have a relationship with a fictional character out of a book.

 

Is some stuff in my own head and thoughts? sure.

 

That's where it ALL is, my dear.

 

~continued~

[Sconnor]

I am most certainly convinced there are others that are not my own doing or making up.

 

Suuuuuure -- keep telling yourself that....

 

Like I said the deluded can convince themselves of ANYTHING.

 

I have seen far too many things to not believe in it. I once went to a church that I had only been at once before. I went up the front for prayer, and some young fellow prayed for me. I had never met him or seen him before. He prayed some amazing things over me that were specifically about something going on in my family. How did he know that stuff? I believe he was being led by god. I am talking specific stuff here, not some general airy fairy stuff anyone could mumble out. I had not even spoken to this guy.

 

Come on?!?

 

Riiiiiiiight -- god went out of his way to channel through some other christian so he could convey information to little ole' Kathlene, while god neglects the rest of his earthly children who are suffering in heinous unthinkable ways. Lucky you..................

 

I've seen it hundreds of times -- charlatans use vague references, while the suckers fill in the blanks and claim it was very specific stuff. And/or the charlatans makes some specific references -- some that you relate to and others you don't relate to. Those are called hit and misses -- you simply remember the hits. I can read a fortune from a Chinese fortune cookie and be amazed how specific it was to my situation -- only when you explore it a little more, you will realize you are the one who is making it fit your situation.

 

You've been scammed. More to the point -- you're the gullible individual who is scamming yourself.

 

I have seen your accusation at other religions and hear you on that. I personally have never been any other religion so I can't comment on other peoples experiences of God. It is an interesting point to chew over though.

 

The point I was making is other religions paint different portraits of god. They have differing and contradictory views about god's will and character.

 

Surely, you can comment on this logical dilemma -- can't you?

 

Some christians profess that Jesus is the prince of peace while christian "god warriors" claim he is a militant leader.

 

Monks thought Jesus was the embodiment of humility while mega-church preachers hail Jesus as a motivational tool for monetary successes.

 

Some think of Jesus as an erotic lover while others think of him as pure and chaste.

 

Some think of god as an evil vengeful god while others think of god as all-loving and all-forgiving.

 

And so on and so forth -- don't even get me started on the Hindu gods.

 

Why do they paint different portraits of god?

 

Because ALL the religions invented (made up) their god just like you are doing now.

 

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.

-- Susan B. Anthony in 1896, addressing the National American Woman Suffrage Association meet

 

I only know God through Jesus. No other way. I dont have any answers about anyone else's path.

 

Could you please answer this: name one thing that your faith does -- that is good -- that can't be done without it?

 

--S.

[Legion]

Changing other's minds

is a waste of time

I change my own mind

 

Yesterday I saw things

a certain way

and then I learned

 

I move from old

understandings

into new

 

I once predicted this

but now I expect

that

 

I am labile!

I have no fixed "I"

no permanent me

[Antlerman]

 

Could you please answer this: name one thing that your faith does -- that is good -- that can't be done without it?

 

--S.

Here's an interesting puzzle to ponder. The one thing for her would be what not having it couldn't give her. Or do you mean that others can't get for themselves in other ways?

[oddbird1963]

Phanta rocks!

 

She sure does!! I've been really impressed lately with her attempts to facilitate focused and meaningful dialog. It seems like an exasperating process. But she is pulling it off quite well!

 

You go girl!

[OrdinaryClay]

You DO NOT know god or his ways.

 

You can't have a relationship with your god-man because he is NOT there. He ONLY exists in your confines of your stunted imagination.

You make a lot of positive claims you can not back up. Why? Judging from your words you seem to be an atheist in the truest sense - meaning you assert there is no God. So show me evidence to support your positive claim, i.e the non-existence of God. Perhaps you would like to start a thread specifically for this subject? I'll respond to your purported evidence.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

Could you please answer this: name one thing that your faith does -- that is good -- that can't be done without it?

 

--S.

Save my soul.

[Ouroboros]

 

Could you please answer this: name one thing that your faith does -- that is good -- that can't be done without it?

 

--S.

Save my soul.

Prove it. Mathematically.

[Antlerman]

 

Could you please answer this: name one thing that your faith does -- that is good -- that can't be done without it?

 

--S.

Save my soul.

Others claim that from other religions. I consider my soul 'saved'. But what does that mean? If you mean it gives you a specific set of mythologies that are different in the story specifics than other religions, that that is a given. That is true in all systems. But the nature, or experience, of having one 'soul saved', is not unique to the Christian system. Do you deny this?

[OrdinaryClay]

The point I was making is other religions paint different portraits of god. They have differing and contradictory views about god's will and character.

 

Surely, you can comment on this logical dilemma -- can't you?

 

--S.

This is not a logical dilemma. A difference of opinion does not even constitute a dilemma let alone a logical dilemma.

[bdp]

 

You make a lot of positive claims you can not back up. Why? Judging from your words you seem to be an atheist in the truest sense - meaning you assert there is no God. So show me evidence to support your positive claim, i.e the non-existence of God. Perhaps you would like to start a thread specifically for this subject? I'll respond to your purported evidence.

 

I'd like to think you're smart enough to grasp that one can't prove a negative. As I said before, LNC does all of this SOOOO much better.

[Guest end3]

 

Could you please answer this: name one thing that your faith does -- that is good -- that can't be done without it?

 

--S.

Save my soul.

Others claim that from other religions. I consider my soul 'saved'. But what does that mean? If you mean it gives you a specific set of mythologies that are different in the story specifics than other religions, that that is a given. That is true in all systems. But the nature, or experience, of having one 'soul saved', is not unique to the Christian system. Do you deny this?

 

I would be really interested in how you define the word "saved" in a saved soul context based on our previous discussions.