Calling All Atheists

[StevoMuso]

Hey HRDWarrior - thanks sister - nicely written. And there I was thinking this thread was losing support - thank you for taking the time to respond :-)

[ledgehaven]

Hello

 

Thank you for starting this post, it was a comfort to read it. I was hoping to find some that were more like "me", but it is okay, I think it is harder to "lose your faith" from my background.

 

I grew up in a very religious family. We believed in the Bible and only went to churches where they taught straight from the Bible. I strayed a little bit in my thinking in college, but afterwards felt like God was calling me back and so I left my boyfriend and everything and got on a plane home. The reason that I did this, mind you, was this awful "feeling" that I had inside of me. I felt like it was God talking to me. It was probably just an emotional tie to Christianity left in me from when I was younger, but too late now...

 

I recently fell in love with a wonderful man, but quickly broke up with him because I just couldn't do it. I kept feeling that "feeling" again. We both cried and were heart broken. Then over the next week or so we started discussing what we both believed. He tried hard to understand my beliefs and even read several books in the Bible that I asked him to read in hopes that he would understand and find the REAL Jesus. Didn't work. Then I started to think about his beliefs and coming up with reasons why it couldn't be true. Suddenly, I realized..wait, why can't they be true?

 

And so it began..

 

Several months of struggling to figure out what I believe, what my place is in the universe, and trying to keep a relationship with my parents (who called me very unkind things when I decided to move in my WONDERFUL boyfriend)... I have tried reading "Atheist" books, only to find their arguments easily rebutted by anyone who knows their Bible and Biblical academia. That was hardly a comfort Basically, I have a sense that Christianity might've been started by a guy who had some sort of mental illness that made him believe he was the Son of God. Then due to a set of crazy circumstances, it became a world religion.

 

I have tried finding some people who understand the Christianity that I came from and who also had left it, but mostly I find those who never really had a strong understanding of Christianity in the first place. Daily I still wonder if I am doing all this because I just want to be with this man, or if I really believe that none of this could make sense.

 

I could answer about any argument you have against Christianity with an excellent rebuttal. I know all the answers they have. I do. It keeps me up sometimes. lol I honestly just want peace and to not have to decide. Of course, maybe I am just fighting against the "only" truth. Who knows.

 

Questioning my faith definitely affected my life, but leaving it did much more. There are friends who don't talk to me anymore. My dad is just now speaking to me a little bit. I see my mom once a week or so. It is awkward, but getting better.

[HRDWarrior]

 

I have tried finding some people who understand the Christianity that I came from and who also had left it, but mostly I find those who never really had a strong understanding of Christianity in the first place. Daily I still wonder if I am doing all this because I just want to be with this man, or if I really believe that none of this could make sense.

 

I could answer about any argument you have against Christianity with an excellent rebuttal. I know all the answers they have. I do. It keeps me up sometimes. lol I honestly just want peace and to not have to decide. Of course, maybe I am just fighting against the "only" truth. Who knows.

 

 

Many of us here had a VERY strong understanding of christianity - in fact, we have several members who were pastors themselves, and a lot of us who often knew more about the bible than our pastors did.

 

The problem with every single argument in christianity is that you MUST assume the bible is the inerrant word of god. Problem being, the bible is not inerrant, and by gaining more understanding of biblical history, it becomes clear that this book was put together by the group of christians who happened to win the fight over what went into it. Additionally, there are a number of outright wrong historical stories and dates.

 

Once the bible is no longer inerrant, everything in it becomes debatable as to whether it is true or not. Once the bible is no longer fact, but rather just another collection of old writings, nearly all christian arguments and apologetics fail. They rely on the bible being true and right - but anyone who knows biblical history, and knows the bible well, can find contradictions for nearly every argument.

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

I have tried finding some people who understand the Christianity that I came from and who also had left it, but mostly I find those who never really had a strong understanding of Christianity in the first place. Daily I still wonder if I am doing all this because I just want to be with this man, or if I really believe that none of this could make sense.

 

I could answer about any argument you have against Christianity with an excellent rebuttal. I know all the answers they have. I do. It keeps me up sometimes. lol I honestly just want peace and to not have to decide. Of course, maybe I am just fighting against the "only" truth. Who knows.

 

 

Many of us here had a VERY strong understanding of christianity - in fact, we have several members who were pastors themselves, and a lot of us who often knew more about the bible than our pastors did.

 

The problem with every single argument in christianity is that you MUST assume the bible is the inerrant word of god. Problem being, the bible is not inerrant, and by gaining more understanding of biblical history, it becomes clear that this book was put together by the group of christians who happened to win the fight over what went into it. Additionally, there are a number of outright wrong historical stories and dates.

 

Once the bible is no longer inerrant, everything in it becomes debatable as to whether it is true or not. Once the bible is no longer fact, but rather just another collection of old writings, nearly all christian arguments and apologetics fail. They rely on the bible being true and right - but anyone who knows biblical history, and knows the bible well, can find contradictions for nearly every argument.

 

HRDWarrior is right on.

 

I spent about 15 years or so studying the bible and following apologetics. I was told by one ordained pastor that I knew more about the bible than he did, and another ordained pastor told me that he thought I should consider going into the ministry. And there are others around here who are more knowledgeable than I.

 

ledgehaven, it sounds to me like you haven't yet come to realize how fallacious apologetics arguments tend to be. They're basically stretching, rationalizing and twisting things to try and make the bible sound reasonable, but once one breaks away from the mindwarp that is christian indoctrination, it becomes quite obvious that the bible really isn't all that reasonable.

 

If you really think that you can "answer about any argument... against Christianity with an excellent rebuttal," then you're fooling yourself. Just like I used to fool myself by also erroneously thinking that every challenge against christianity had an excellent rebuttal.

 

Keep learning and studying, and perhaps one day you'll see what we're talking about.

[ledgehaven]

Hello

 

Thank you for starting this post, it was a comfort to read it. I was hoping to find some that were more like "me", but it is okay, I think it is harder to "lose your faith" from my background.

 

I grew up in a very religious family. We believed in the Bible and only went to churches where they taught straight from the Bible. I strayed a little bit in my thinking in college, but afterwards felt like God was calling me back and so I left my boyfriend and everything and got on a plane home. The reason that I did this, mind you, was this awful "feeling" that I had inside of me. I felt like it was God talking to me. It was probably just an emotional tie to Christianity left in me from when I was younger, but too late now...

 

I recently fell in love with a wonderful man, but quickly broke up with him because I just couldn't do it. I kept feeling that "feeling" again. We both cried and were heart broken. Then over the next week or so we started discussing what we both believed. He tried hard to understand my beliefs and even read several books in the Bible that I asked him to read in hopes that he would understand and find the REAL Jesus. Didn't work. Then I started to think about his beliefs and coming up with reasons why it couldn't be true. Suddenly, I realized..wait, why can't they be true?

 

And so it began..

 

Several months of struggling to figure out what I believe, what my place is in the universe, and trying to keep a relationship with my parents (who called me very unkind things when I decided to move in my WONDERFUL boyfriend)... I have tried reading "Atheist" books, only to find their arguments easily rebutted by anyone who knows their Bible and Biblical academia. That was hardly a comfort Basically, I have a sense that Christianity might've been started by a guy who had some sort of mental illness that made him believe he was the Son of God. Then due to a set of crazy circumstances, it became a world religion.

 

I have tried finding some people who understand the Christianity that I came from and who also had left it, but mostly I find those who never really had a strong understanding of Christianity in the first place. Daily I still wonder if I am doing all this because I just want to be with this man, or if I really believe that none of this could make sense.

 

I could answer about any argument you have against Christianity with an excellent rebuttal. I know all the answers they have. I do. It keeps me up sometimes. lol I honestly just want peace and to not have to decide. Of course, maybe I am just fighting against the "only" truth. Who knows.

 

Questioning my faith definitely affected my life, but leaving it did much more. There are friends who don't talk to me anymore. My dad is just now speaking to me a little bit. I see my mom once a week or so. It is awkward, but getting better.

 

 

The viewpoint that the Bible is 100% accurate and the word of God has been mostly dying with the previous generation. I know quite a few who believe in the essence of the Bible as the work of men inspired by an Almighty God.

 

It seems easy to be an atheist and just say that the Bible was written by humans all with different agendas and therefore Christianity is false. But the thing is that there are a lot of Christians who believe the former without the latter..and have well posed arguments in place to defend themselves. (I think they are all a load of crap , but anyway, it is helpful to know that postmodern Christianity is alive and well and doesn't believe the evolution and inerrant Bible bull that previous Biblical movements depended upon)

 

I am on this site because the atheists on here ARE respectful and knowledgeable. I apologize if you felt like I was including you in my previous statement. I was simply detailing the past adventure.

 

Thanks for the response

[ledgehaven]

 

I have tried finding some people who understand the Christianity that I came from and who also had left it, but mostly I find those who never really had a strong understanding of Christianity in the first place. Daily I still wonder if I am doing all this because I just want to be with this man, or if I really believe that none of this could make sense.

 

I could answer about any argument you have against Christianity with an excellent rebuttal. I know all the answers they have. I do. It keeps me up sometimes. lol I honestly just want peace and to not have to decide. Of course, maybe I am just fighting against the "only" truth. Who knows.

 

 

Many of us here had a VERY strong understanding of christianity - in fact, we have several members who were pastors themselves, and a lot of us who often knew more about the bible than our pastors did.

 

The problem with every single argument in christianity is that you MUST assume the bible is the inerrant word of god. Problem being, the bible is not inerrant, and by gaining more understanding of biblical history, it becomes clear that this book was put together by the group of christians who happened to win the fight over what went into it. Additionally, there are a number of outright wrong historical stories and dates.

 

Once the bible is no longer inerrant, everything in it becomes debatable as to whether it is true or not. Once the bible is no longer fact, but rather just another collection of old writings, nearly all christian arguments and apologetics fail. They rely on the bible being true and right - but anyone who knows biblical history, and knows the bible well, can find contradictions for nearly every argument.

 

HRDWarrior is right on.

 

I spent about 15 years or so studying the bible and following apologetics. I was told by one ordained pastor that I knew more about the bible than he did, and another ordained pastor told me that he thought I should consider going into the ministry. And there are others around here who are more knowledgeable than I.

 

ledgehaven, it sounds to me like you haven't yet come to realize how fallacious apologetics arguments tend to be. They're basically stretching, rationalizing and twisting things to try and make the bible sound reasonable, but once one breaks away from the mindwarp that is christian indoctrination, it becomes quite obvious that the bible really isn't all that reasonable.

 

If you really think that you can "answer about any argument... against Christianity with an excellent rebuttal," then you're fooling yourself. Just like I used to fool myself by also erroneously thinking that every challenge against christianity had an excellent rebuttal.

 

Keep learning and studying, and perhaps one day you'll see what we're talking about.

 

 

Thank you I believe the arguments to be false, but am dealing with 20+ years of indoctrination. I am able to give excellent rebuttals, I didn't say they would be true ones!! haha My point, which apparently wasn't exactly clear, was that I didn't believe in Christianity, but due to living that lifestyle for so long it is hard to completely break free. I think you can understand the difficulties of overcoming that mindset. Yes, of course, when you break free you realize it is all a farce, but it is like a break up.. It cannot all be rationalized and swept under the carpet. Although, wouldn't that be a wonderful thing, eh?

 

Thanks for the response.

[StevoMuso]

Thank you I believe the arguments to be false, but am dealing with 20+ years of indoctrination. I am able to give excellent rebuttals, I didn't say they would be true ones!! haha My point, which apparently wasn't exactly clear, was that I didn't believe in Christianity, but due to living that lifestyle for so long it is hard to completely break free. I think you can understand the difficulties of overcoming that mindset. Yes, of course, when you break free you realize it is all a farce, but it is like a break up.. It cannot all be rationalized and swept under the carpet. Although, wouldn't that be a wonderful thing, eh?

 

Thanks for the response.

Hi Ledgehaven, and welcome to the forum. You will find the people here friendly, intelligent and brilliantly well spoken.

 

I once broke up with a girl and it was a huge relief because the relationship had become destructive. I think, in time, you will see that it is the same with losing your faith. It can all be rationalized, even though it hurts like crazy sometimes to have lost some of the good things in religion (like the acceptance, fellowship, music, feeling loved etc.), but like breaking up you cherish the good memories but move on to a better and more free life. You are correct, we cannot sweep some of our past religious lives under the carpet (like the friendships and people we love) but the lies, deception, blindness etc. we can sweep under the carpet and simply move on.

 

I would like to post your story onto my blog but it was unclear to me that you were an atheist. Would you mind if I used your story but added a few parenthesis from your other posts to make the story more clear?

 

BTW I'm REALLY chuffed by your post and encouraged that you found some comfort here. If you follow the link to my blog you will find stories from all over the world (not just from this forum) and some of them are breathtakingly moving. Check out, particularly, the "Stunning letter" entry - I think you will relate to the writer on many levels (it's from elsewhere on this forum but quoted anonymously). You may also enjoy, and relate to, the entry from my daughter. It's right down near the beginning and it's entitled "Monique (South Africa)".

 

You sound like a warm and sincere person and, if that is who you are, you will find many friends at Ex-C dot net.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Thank you I believe the arguments to be false, but am dealing with 20+ years of indoctrination. I am able to give excellent rebuttals, I didn't say they would be true ones!! haha My point, which apparently wasn't exactly clear, was that I didn't believe in Christianity, but due to living that lifestyle for so long it is hard to completely break free. I think you can understand the difficulties of overcoming that mindset. Yes, of course, when you break free you realize it is all a farce, but it is like a break up.. It cannot all be rationalized and swept under the carpet. Although, wouldn't that be a wonderful thing, eh?

 

Thanks for the response.

 

Indeed, strong indoctrination is difficult to overcome. I was heavily indoctrinated for 29 years myself, and I had a hell of a time once I started questioning things. In time it does get better, so take encouragement from that.

 

By the way, though, as far as "rebuttals" go, when they're not "true ones" I wouldn't exactly call them "excellent."

 

Anyway, good luck, and enjoy the journey ahead of you....

[Neon Genesis]

 

 

 

Thank you I believe the arguments to be false, but am dealing with 20+ years of indoctrination. I am able to give excellent rebuttals, I didn't say they would be true ones!! haha

So if I understand right, you basically have the apologetics all memorized by heart but you don't believe in any of the apologetics?

[HRDWarrior]

So if I understand right, you basically have the apologetics all memorized by heart but you don't believe in any of the apologetics?

 

I must admit this question kinda echoes my own. Perhaps just some clarification is needed, since I seem to be a bit confused. Is the above statement true? And if so, then how do you see them as such excellent and persuasive arguments for christianity?

 

The brainwashing and indoctrination is very hard to overcome, and definitely takes years. My own deconversion probably took place over a good 7-8 years even though I wasn't always aware that was what was happening.

 

However, once you see how something is a) a circular argument or b ) false, how do you still see them as valid? I'm just curious where you're coming from since I'm a bit unclear at this point if you believe the arguments (therefore making them valid to you) or simply know they exist even if you see them as silly, in which case they are no longer a valid argument....or are you still in that "not sure" phase where you are trying to find validity one way or the other?

 

I'm not trying to be rude, I'm simply trying to clarify where you're coming from since right now I'm kinda scratching my head

[StevoMuso]

However, once you see how something is a) a circular argument or b ) false, how do you still see them as valid? I'm just curious where you're coming from since I'm a bit unclear at this point if you believe the arguments (therefore making them valid to you) or simply know they exist even if you see them as silly, in which case they are no longer a valid argument....or are you still in that "not sure" phase where you are trying to find validity one way or the other?

 

I'm not trying to be rude, I'm simply trying to clarify where you're coming from since right now I'm kinda scratching my head

You know, I think I sympathize with Ledgehaven on this one. We all know how ridiculous the Christian arguments are and can easily see how lame and misinformed their attempted apologetics are. But the reason Christians don't see how lame their arguments are is because of the indoctrination involved. Their faith is blind in the true sense of the word.

 

Hey Ledgehaven ... where have you gone? Would love to hear from you again.

[ledgehaven]

However, once you see how something is a) a circular argument or b ) false, how do you still see them as valid? I'm just curious where you're coming from since I'm a bit unclear at this point if you believe the arguments (therefore making them valid to you) or simply know they exist even if you see them as silly, in which case they are no longer a valid argument....or are you still in that "not sure" phase where you are trying to find validity one way or the other?

 

I'm not trying to be rude, I'm simply trying to clarify where you're coming from since right now I'm kinda scratching my head

You know, I think I sympathize with Ledgehaven on this one. We all know how ridiculous the Christian arguments are and can easily see how lame and misinformed their attempted apologetics are. But the reason Christians don't see how lame their arguments are is because of the indoctrination involved. Their faith is blind in the true sense of the word.

 

Hey Ledgehaven ... where have you gone? Would love to hear from you again.

 

I apologize My job keeps me tied up a lot, and when I am off I tend to try to keep busy with life. I find that this experience is very much like a breakup I had after an unhealthy 3 year relationship. I realize with part of my mind that a lot of the things I believed were presented with good intentions by those close to me, but happen to have a very shaky foundation stemming way back to the beginning of the New Testament. The other part of my mind comes up with plenty of excuses as to why Christianity makes sense. It feels like the old "I shouldn't go back, but I miss Him..." sort of thing that a lot of females (and males!) go through after a breakup.

 

I realize that my atheism is also under scrutiny, and I don't blame anyone for that I don't even know what to call myself. I am on this forum because it provides a healthy space for me to reside in when I need it most. For all rational purposes, my mind believes itself to be an atheist. But on any given day I am somewhere on the continuum. Day by day it becomes more "natural" to think atheistically though. Woohoo for that!

 

Fortunately, I have a significant other that supports WHATEVER I believe, and a couple friends who feel the same. I lost a lot of friends and family due to my "epiphany". But, time will heal... either me or them.

 

I like this forum a lot because I have found many others are full of angry and bitter ex-Christians. While I completely "get that", I don't want to be around the negativity. I think it is healthier to understand where Christians in my life are coming from and to feel that they are on a journey too. If I don't want to be judged, than I don't think it is my right to judge them. I feel angry and bitter and sad and hurt a lot of times towards them, I am not saying that those feelings are not a part of my journey as well. I have welcomed them, but not bid them to tarry in my heart. In a way, I want to be BETTER than the best, sweet old Christians that I know (and we all know they exist! ). Because, in a way, I want to prove that I can be my own wonderful person without an allpowerful being on my side. Psychologically, I can understand how that makes life make more sense, but now that I have "looked behind the curtain", I cannot go that way again.

 

I will be around. I promise. I wonder if there is a way on here to give people my email...as I communicate better that way. Although, I feel that I will find myself being around the forum more, as I think it is healthy. Right now I am timidly here as I need it, and I go away for a breather for a while. Not because the air is stale, but because the reminder of what I am struggling through is too much sometimes. I like to just LIVE for a bit and then confront things head on. I have spent the past 4 months just thinking...and I seem to be getting out of that. I love thinking...just the irrational (but..but...what if this? what if that?) is what I am trying to cut myself apart from. To answer HRDWarrior's questioning, I am just a baby at this with only a few months under my belt, I feel like from your response that you understand that but didn't realize that I am in this place and not several years down the road. I apologize if I was unclear, but I believe now you can understand why I feel like I could "successfully" answer everything in their "logic". You are right,it is very circular. I had always felt like something was off with that........

 

I hope this reaches all of you who have responded to me and makes a bit more sense for you. I feel a deep gratitude for everyone's responses, and it is comforting. Deeply so. We are all human and we all share this past hurt. Some fresher than others. It isn't cancer or child abuse, but I still feel the trauma, and I love that we can all share the healing process and the stories of living beyond it all together. I feel that sometimes I belittle the pain or the struggle that I sometimes have, but I would dare to say that there is some trauma in this experience, whether others understand it or not..doesn't make it less real.

 

Cheers and happiness to all

[StevoMuso]

 

I feel a deep gratitude for everyone's responses, and it is comforting. Deeply so. We are all human and we all share this past hurt. Some fresher than others. It isn't cancer or child abuse, but I still feel the trauma, and I love that we can all share the healing process and the stories of living beyond it all together. I feel that sometimes I belittle the pain or the struggle that I sometimes have, but I would dare to say that there is some trauma in this experience, whether others understand it or not..doesn't make it less real.

 

Cheers and happiness to all

 

This is probably one of the best posts I've seen describing the aftermath of de-conversion - thanks. I've sent you a PM, LedgeHaven, including my email address, so you are welcome to contact me this way. If others on this forum do the same, you may have found another circle of cyber-friends in which to feel at home. See ya

[Cousin Ricky]

I live in the United States Virgin Islands.

 

1. I didn't have any single slide, but several events that broke my faith. The first was learning how much of daily activity would put me into HELL forever. Then I was introduced to the concept of "the God hypothesis," and I could not disagree that God is unnecessary. Lastly, I tried to verify that Xians are more ethical than non-believers, and that the sacraments gave us moral strength. No sign of any of that.
    
   
2. I'm shy, and the church was most of my social life. I miss that part of religion. I also got a jolt of increased empathy for my fellow humans. For example, say a little girl is raped and murdered: for all her trouble, she's not in heaven; she's just DEAD. I also find it easier to give to street beggars--no Invisible Dude keeping tally.
   

[StevoMuso]

I live in the United States Virgin Islands ...

 

Thanks for your contribution Cousin R - your post is on my blog. Short, powerful and to the point. Thanks. Steve

[JohnK]

I'm from southern California, USA.

 

1. For me, faith in Christianity started and ended with the bible. I grew up in a non-religious home, so atheism was the default position that I just reverted back to once I decided that Christianity was false. My deconversion process started with the discovery of a couple of contradictions in the bible that I couldn't ignore or explain away, which led to further research on the internet, and the discovery of more contradictions, in addition to more unsavory facts about the bible (ie. that stories were added into the gospels centuries after the supposed events occurred, the striking similarities of bible stories to Egyptian and Mesopotamian mythology, mistranslations from the original Greek or Hebrew, etc.) After this floodgate of information assaulted my worldview, I realized that the bible was man-made just like any other religious text, and that was enough to show me there was nothing divine or special about Christianity. And voila, the atheist in me was reborn.

 

2. One of the best things about being an atheist again is that I am free to read and study whatever I want, not having to conform or limit my studies to what the bible or the church teaches. I am free to do my own research and evaluation on whatever topic I please, and come to my own conclusions (the main idea behind freethought). It is so refreshing to do this after years of dogma and commandments to "just believe". In addition, I have no more cognitive dissonance as a result of Christian doctrine, especially in regards to the problem of evil. When I was a Christian, I would be at pains to reconcile god's supposedly loving character with the horrible tragedies suffered by human beings every day. I often thought about atrocities such as Auschwitz, Unit 731, or the Cambodian killing fields, and wonder why a loving god did not intervene, not to mention all the natural disasters such as earthquakes, plagues, floods, hurricanes, etc. that have destroyed human lives throughout history. Now I view the world differently. There is probably no god looking out for us or our planet. We find ourselves on a planet that has killed off 99% of all life forms that have ever existed on it, and we should not have any delusions of grandeur that we are immune from such extinction either. I think our best chance of survival and success is to use our cumulative knowledge, reason and common sense to build a better world for ourselves and our children. To the extent that I can aid humankind in this endeavor during my short stay here on earth, I will do so.

 

By the way, great blog! Please keep up the good work. If you're going to add my post to your blog, have my name as "JohnK2". Thanks