God Vs. "science"

[Realist]

Thumbelina shows her ignorance by putting god and science in the same sentence!!!

 

Tell me by the way how the fuck did you get that name? Surely you did not name yourself that?

[chefranden]

..."'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil [sin] emphasis mine . Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'...

 

I'm sorry to say that this tired bromide doesn't let God off the hook. It only offers an explanation of how God creates evil. God creates evil by absenting himself, though one wonders how an omnipresent being manages this feat.

[Abmin9]

Great reply! I'm absolutely LMFAO over...

 

Nobody converts to Christianity because they "lost faith" in "science".

 

Funny, deep, real, true, honest stuff here!

[Phanta]

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

 

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

 

'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.'

 

The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter.

 

'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.'

 

'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

 

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

 

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

 

Hi, Thumbelina.

 

I am confident "science" "says" living humans have brains, and that it is possible for living mortal beings to experience the existence of a brain through direct sensory observation.

 

There are many ways for living humans to experience the brain through a direct, sensory process. Brain surgeons touch and smell brains daily. As distasteful as the following scenario is to imagine, it would be possible for students in this hypothetical class to crack the professor's head open with a sharp object and see, touch and smell his brains as a group. Testing empirically for a brain in every human is usually not the done thing, but the restriction is ethical, not physical as with "God". Do you see the difference?

 

If you still need help with this, here is a video of Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor's TED talk, A Stroke of Insight. She brings a human brain out around 2:30 to illustrate some brain functions to her audience. She is touching it and seeing it, and probably smelling it during her talk. I don't imagine it is making much noise, though.

 

This

is an example of a way brains are experienced directly by brain surgeons--living, mortal beings--in an ethical setting.

 

Because the student continues to build his argument off of this gross error, I didn't read further.

 

I hope that helps.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

"'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil.

 

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

 

Woah.

 

Even the milder NIV has God proclaiming he creates darkness:

 

7 I form the light and create darkness,

I make peace and create calamity;

I, the LORD, do all these things.’

 

The OP is in conflict with science and with scripture.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

I am ashamed to say I used to use this same chain email as an argument for god... I am no science major but unlike heat and light, god is supposedly omnipresent so there is no absence, right?

 

Maybe there's just less God in some of us? Like, I've only got 2 degrees of God in me, while Thumbalina has 5000 degrees of God in her. You'd think those in Hell would have none, though...right? Hm... Unless Hell isn't a physical place.

 

Oh, I got it. Hell isn't a physical place, it's a metaphor for the horror of the absence of God. Because after we die we lose our physicality, there is then no physical locale for God exist in. This clear up the problem of God being omnipresent, and leaves our non-corporeal selves ("spirits" or "souls") cold and dark and alone.

 

How's that?

 

Phanta

[Ouroboros]

But since sin and apostasy is a form of being absent of God, we are already in the state of Hell. I'm doing pretty good, thank you. If Hell is only the "torture" of being without God, then it must be atheist heaven.

[Phanta]

But since sin and apostasy is a form of being absent of God,

 

Is there a strong belief among Christians that apostasy means total and complete lack of God? Do they believe that an apostate may act occasionally in kindness? If so, and if you, Hans, an Apostate, act in kindness, are you still 100% "absent of God" in that moment of action?

 

I'm curious.

 

Phanta

[Ouroboros]

Is there a strong belief among Christians that apostasy means total and complete lack of God?

With some, with some not. That's the problem. To try to define what exactly is the "Right Theology" of Christianity is like trying to pin a jellyfish to a block of butter using sticky-notes.

 

Do they believe that an apostate may act occasionally in kindness? If so, and if you, Hans, an Apostate, act in kindness, are you still 100% "absent of God" in that moment of action?

Acting in kindness or evilness is relating to our free will (I think they would argue), so it wouldn't reflect on God's existence in our lives or not.

 

To have the feeling that goodness is a good thing to do is obviously innate in most of us, rather than dependent on some magical influence.

[Phanta]

If the absence of God as described in the OP is cold and dark, it's strange to me that the dominant conception of hell is all fire and heat. It's not a consistent description across Christianity, if this post is accepted as an accurate illustration of Christian theology.

 

Weird!

 

Of course, it makes sense when understood as a symbol of finality and horror evolving from the lasting image within the Jewish culture of a likely real burning trash heap on the edge of an ancient Israelite community; a metaphor of understanding that is very different from the one presented here. Very different.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

Is there a strong belief among Christians that apostasy means total and complete lack of God?

With some, with some not. That's the problem. To try to define what exactly is the "Right Theology" of Christianity is like trying to pin a jellyfish to a block of butter using sticky-notes.

 

Swedish pasttime?

 

Do they believe that an apostate may act occasionally in kindness? If so, and if you, Hans, an Apostate, act in kindness, are you still 100% "absent of God" in that moment of action?

 

Acting in kindness or evilness is relating to our free will (I think they would argue), so it wouldn't reflect on God's existence in our lives or not.

 

Ok, that's the view that connection with God is completely unrelated to works, right?

 

Phanta

[Ouroboros]

If the absence of God as described in the OP is cold and dark, it's strange to me that the dominant conception of hell is all fire and heat. It's not a consistent description across Christianity, if this post is accepted as an accurate illustration of Christian theology.

Right.

 

I remember that I learned there are two hells. There are two Heavens as well.

 

There is one Heaven/Hell at this moment, which will last until the end of time, and after the judgment, the Hell bound will be thrown into Gehenna (eternal fire), and the good people will enjoy a new world. God will recreate the Universe only for them, while the rest are tormented in an eternal fire.

 

When some Christians are challenged with the fairness and justice of God sending people to eternal Hell, they respond with the idea that Hell isn't a fire but a separation from God. Hell practically becomes what you make it to be. But I'm not sure that is a Biblical view at all.

 

 

Weird!

 

Of course, it makes sense when understood as a symbol of finality and horror evolving from the lasting image within the Jewish culture of a likely real burning trash heap on the edge of an ancient Israelite community; a metaphor of understanding that is very different from the one presented here. Very different.

The idea of Hell has evolved.

 

For the Zoroastrians, Hell was more like a temporary cleaning process. You went there because you were impure. By throwing you in the fire and water, you would be purified, like iron. What a coincident that it evolved during the late iron age?

 

A side note: I wonder if the Bible story where God can't attack the enemies because they have iron chariots was supposed to relate to impure iron. It would make sense if the religion had the idea that impure iron was like impure humans, and through God people were made pure. And God couldn't stand the unclean iron or man.

[Ouroboros]

Swedish pasttime?

Yes. You should try it sometime.

 

Ok, that's the view that connection with God is completely unrelated to works, right?

In my view, but hey, it's all convoluted and a mishmash of ideas, so I can't say what the next Christian on the chopping-block will believe.

 

But I think that a person's actions, even in the religious framework, is disconnected from the supposed relationship with God. In other words, in my opinion, Christians can't show anything to support that they are better people because they pray. It supposedly strengthens their faith though, but there's no evidence they become better people just because of the so-called relationship.

[Shyone]

If the absence of God as described in the OP is cold and dark, it's strange to me that the dominant conception of hell is all fire and heat. It's not a consistent description across Christianity, if this post is accepted as an accurate illustration of Christian theology.

 

Weird!

 

Of course, it makes sense when understood as a symbol of finality and horror evolving from the lasting image within the Jewish culture of a likely real burning trash heap on the edge of an ancient Israelite community; a metaphor of understanding that is very different from the one presented here. Very different.

 

Phanta

Cultures that understand or have experienced volcanoes would be more likely to imagine a "lake of fire." A burning trash dump is smoky, but without the sulfur and brimstone.

 

I note that the Mediterranean area, including the near east, has volcanoes from the cities around Greece and western Turkey, but none in biblical times from the area of Canaan.

 

The Global Volcanism Program database for Volcanoes of the Mediterranean and western Asia currently contains 46 Holocene volcanoes and 2 Pleistocene volcanoes with thermal activity, sorted below in geographical (volcano number) order. Descriptions of the various "Volcano Type" and "Volcano Status" designations can be found on the Volcano Data Criteria page.

 

Here's a map of some of the Mediterranean volcanoes around Greece.

 

I think that the idea of hell as a lake of fire probably originated outside of the Aramaic speaking world, and was incorporated into the New Testament as an example of religious syncretism.

[Phanta]

If the absence of God as described in the OP is cold and dark, it's strange to me that the dominant conception of hell is all fire and heat. It's not a consistent description across Christianity, if this post is accepted as an accurate illustration of Christian theology.

Right.

 

I remember that I learned there are two hells. There are two Heavens as well.

 

There is one Heaven/Hell at this moment, which will last until the end of time, and after the judgment, the Hell bound will be thrown into Gehenna (eternal fire), and the good people will enjoy a new world. God will recreate the Universe only for them, while the rest are tormented in an eternal fire.

 

I haven't heard that before. Thanks.

 

When some Christians are challenged with the fairness and justice of God sending people to eternal Hell, they respond with the idea that Hell isn't a fire but a separation from God.

 

Cold and dark.

 

Hell practically becomes what you make it to be. But I'm not sure that is a Biblical view at all.

 

God is like a pheasant! God is like a fox!

 

Hell is like a swimming pool! Hell is like a desert!

 

Swedish pasttime?

Yes. You should try it sometime.

 

 

- P

[Phanta]

If the absence of God as described in the OP is cold and dark, it's strange to me that the dominant conception of hell is all fire and heat. It's not a consistent description across Christianity, if this post is accepted as an accurate illustration of Christian theology.

 

Weird!

 

Of course, it makes sense when understood as a symbol of finality and horror evolving from the lasting image within the Jewish culture of a likely real burning trash heap on the edge of an ancient Israelite community; a metaphor of understanding that is very different from the one presented here. Very different.

 

Phanta

Cultures that understand or have experienced volcanoes would be more likely to imagine a "lake of fire." A burning trash dump is smoky, but without the sulfur and brimstone.

 

I note that the Mediterranean area, including the near east, has volcanoes from the cities around Greece and western Turkey, but none in biblical times from the area of Canaan.

 

The Global Volcanism Program database for Volcanoes of the Mediterranean and western Asia currently contains 46 Holocene volcanoes and 2 Pleistocene volcanoes with thermal activity, sorted below in geographical (volcano number) order. Descriptions of the various "Volcano Type" and "Volcano Status" designations can be found on the Volcano Data Criteria page.

 

Here's a map of some of the Mediterranean volcanoes around Greece.

 

I think that the idea of hell as a lake of fire probably originated outside of the Aramaic speaking world, and was incorporated into the New Testament as an example of religious syncretism.

 

Interesting idea!

 

Phanta

[godlessgrrl]

I do wish though, just once, one of the edgey, sarcastic christians would explain to me how being snarky falls in line with their religion.

 

I suspect it's a tactic of the If they won't join you, beat 'em school of evangelizing.

 

But I doubt you'd ever get 'em to admit it.

[Purple]

I do wish though, just once, one of the edgey, sarcastic christians would explain to me how being snarky falls in line with their religion.

 

I suspect it's a tactic of the If they won't join you, beat 'em school of evangelizing.

 

But I doubt you'd ever get 'em to admit it.

 

 

You're probably right. In a lot of situations I appreciate sarcasim, lowest form of wit or not. I can even appreciate snarkiness at times. I just don't see how a person can come to a place to supposedly share a religion and pull on the snarky hat.

[NonXNonExX]

"I just don't see how a person can come to a place to supposedly share a religion and pull on the snarky hat."

 

It's actually very simple. This is what most people do when they see they can't win an argument. I'm sure Thumbelina thought we were all going to go running for the nearest church to get down on our knees and beg forgiveness. Obviously, she very quickly realized she was badly mistaken and wisely decided not to show her face her again. Too bad. I know there were a lot of playful cats out there sharpening their claws to play with this ignorant little mouse!!

[ContraBardus]

The honest problem is that Christians who come here often have Mary Sue syndrome.

 

They think they are self insertion fanfiction characters.

 

They literally expect to show up here, post this sort of thing, and stump us.

 

They expect us to find them intelligent and witty.

 

They think we will not be able to respond.

 

Now, the Christian does not expect us all to immediately understand what they posted.

 

No, not at all. They will be here to guide us and explain the details for us.

 

They think they are right, and that their argument is fresh and air tight. It makes so much sense to them, it's just -our- misunderstanding that's the problem.

 

We've never seen this particular argument before, or if we did, we didn't understand it's real meaning.

 

It's just so obviously right that there's no way we can really refute it.

 

The fantasy:

 

Christian: See, that's why Jesus is always the answer! You just weren't seeing it right!

 

Us: Wow! I never saw it that way before!

 

Us: What? This makes so much sense!

 

Us: I still don't understand it, and I'm angry at it. You're still wrong!

 

Us: I just can't argue with this!

 

Us: Please, stay and tell us more!

 

Us: Yes, share with us more of this know-ledge you speak of!

 

Us: Why does Christ complete us so?

 

Us: Why have I never realized Jesus loves me so much!? How could I have been so blind!

 

Christian: Lol! Don't worry, I'll explain it all and send you information to direct you to the nearest church of my particular denomination so you can be properly baptized and shown the true way!

 

A few dissenters shuffle off into the darkness, desperately clinging to their delusion and searching ever so hard for a flaw in the superior argument.

 

Sooner or later, they will fail and come into the fold, just like the others.

 

Jesus saves all, mega happy ending! Excellent!

 

Reality:

 

Christian: And that's why...

 

Us: Oh shut up. Like we haven't heard this crap a million times before. This is the seventeenth time some idiot has posted this crap this month. Begone with you, fool!

 

Us: Again? Really? How is this irrational delusion Science? Seriously, explain how this is based on any sort of evidence.

 

Us: Please. Do a bit of research, Google, Wiki, and Snopes are your friends. This wouldn't happen if you did a bit of research before copy pasting what shows up in your E-mail inbox. Seriously, it's not that hard.

 

Us: What about Buddha and Vishnu? How is that any more rational than believing in Thor?

 

Us: Do you not see how evil this is? I mean, how do you justify your God allowing something so stupid and/or cruel? Please explain something you should have easily noticed but were too blinded by the light shining from your own polished helmet to notice?

 

Us: Contradicts Science? Don't be absurd, hell, the Bible itself doesn't even support that stupid claim! Idiot! [insert Bible verse which proves point here.]

 

Us: Actually, Science says no such thing. That's a complete misrepresentation of what it actually says, which is this: [insert correct Scientific explanation for phenomenon here.]

 

Us: We don't understand? You're the one who doesn't realize that Science is not a 'faith' system, but a system that is based on observation, testing, and repeated results. It actually needs evidence to make a claim, not just some silly belief that you just made up.

 

Us: You vile swine! How dare you expose my optical nerves to such regurgitated crap? Now I have to bleach them again! Screw off Jesus Nazi!

 

Mods: Seriously. You should have expected this. Still, there are a few easily observable errors I can show you here.

 

I don't really expect it to do much good, but you're welcome to post here. Try to put some more thought into it and come up with some OC and you might not get jumped on so hard next time.

 

Us: No! You're not! Red rum! Red rum! Begone fool! We shall not suffer such ignorance!

 

Us: Dudes, chill. Look, this is a detailed explanation for all the factual and logical errors in your last post with references. Please read them, and try not to make yourself look like an idiot in the future.

 

Us: Man, when exactly did they run out of new stuff anyway? Seriously, I haven't seen a new chain-mail posting since '92.

 

Us: It does get old when they keep trying to pull this same crap all the time.

 

Us: Huh huh. Stupid Christian. Huh huh huh.

 

Us: Heh heh heh heh m heh heh. Yeah. Let's make fun of him. Heh heh heh heh.

 

Us: Yeah. That guy is a dumbass. Huh huh huh...

 

So, in closing, they come in expecting to wow us with their invincible new argument that they just recently discovered, and expect us to not know of this flawless gem of indisputable logic.

 

Then they get here, and their Jesus Fanfic turns into a Jesus/Peter/John slash fic with a trio of hermaphrodites and tentacle demons with vagina foreheads and foreskin fingernails.

 

So, they get defensive and hostile when they realize their perfect plan has been steamrolled by our rational reality.

 

I love you guys.

[mwc]

Woah.

 

Even the milder NIV has God proclaiming he creates darkness:

 

7 I form the light and create darkness,

I make peace and create calamity;

I, the LORD, do all these things.’

 

The OP is in conflict with science and with scripture.

True enough. Except...

 

Without going into all other uses try looking at how it's translated in all the other uses in Isaiah (1:16, 3:11, 5:20, 31:2 and 56:2). I think you'll find that it's pretty commonly translated "evil" except in this one lone verse. Other authors use it in a pretty similar way (not always but Isaiah is pretty consistent).

 

I'm inclined to think that maybe, perhaps, "evil" might be right for this passage as well but for some reason there has been an intentional "softening" here. Besides, I would think that someone who intentionally creates "calamity," and brags about it, is fairly evil.

 

mwc

[Purple]

The honest problem is that Christians who come here often have Mary Sue syndrome.

 

snipped

 

I love you guys.

 

 

That, was AWESOME! LOL

[Emme]

The honest problem is that Christians who come here often have Mary Sue syndrome.

 

SNIP

 

So, they get defensive and hostile when they realize their perfect plan has been steamrolled by our rational reality.

 

I love you guys.

 

Great!

[Xerces]

Good job at copying and pasting a e-mail chain fwd about a story that didn't happen, the student was supposedly Einstein, but its false. Learn to snopes.

[Ouroboros]

Silly story.

 

And I think you're both wrong, unless I'm not remember this correctly, we have a common ancestor with the apes.

 

So evil is the absence of God? Hell is evil, God created Hell, God is the source of evil creation. Blame God, not humans.

 

The absolute view of relational things is just so yesterday...

Ah, the joy of resurrected threads!

 

I have to correct myself here. We have common ancestors to every animal, plant, mollusk, bacteria, and virus. So the correct way to say this is that our closest relative in the tree of species, apes are the closest, and monkeys are more distant relatives. But we do share ancestry with monkeys as well, just not as close.