Pantheism

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Aside from the fact that I'm a skeptic, and I really never believed in the stuff I was taught to believe. Maybe when I was 4, but my memory of that time is etchy at best. I've always had a "spiritual" side, for a lack of a better term. As I neither believe in spirits nor a supernatural, nor anything metaphysical. I just have no reason to.

 

A long while ago, I thought people were pagan because that's what they wanted God to be, so I became that and was a pagan (eclectic, then for a while a mesopotamian one) until I realized these people were dead serious. I couldn't justify the existence of a deity as well, so I left and became atheist.

 

Now that I'm an atheist/agnostic (I say agnostic), I still have a "spiritual" side, it just only seems to come out when i look at nature. Nature is just awesome. I really didn't know what pantheism was originally. When I read "the god delusion", I heard dawkin's explain some of it, but it wasn't nothing more than a side thought. Though recently an atheist friend of mine was talking about it, and it seemed interesting.

 

I thought I would look into pantheism, and see what its about. So far it seems interesting. It would fit my "spiritual" (for a lack of a better term) side, love of nature and my side that just doesnt believe in a supernatural.

 

Anyone have any books on the subject that they'd recommend? So far, I've read previews to a few on google books. At least before I go to the book store, I get to preview some.

[Deva]

Please read Spinoza. "The Ethics" is the greatest, but he also wrote the "Theological-Political Treatise." Way ahead of his time and very brilliant.

 

I struggled to read The Ethics in the early 90s. It took at least a month. Not an easy book since Spinoza chose to couch his philosophy in geometric form, but what little I did understand made quite an impact on me. I realized then that one could reject BibleGod and still have a real sense of wonder at the universe and a very sensible, ethical philosophy. I will not forget the sense of discovery this gave me. Too bad it was never taught in school.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Most pagans that I've encountered don't think of the god or goddess (or others) as actual beings. It has always been more of a pantheist approach that everything and everyone is an extension of the one being. I suppose it depends on the people, especially with no "authority" in paganism.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

I see, thanks the the reply Fuego! I too noticed that, but didn't put much thought into it. I, while pagan, always figured that I could find a real deity, and to no suprise I never did lol. Though the idea of deities as symbols is something I'm trying to find more info on, what is with that? What's that about?

 

Deva, thanks! I'm reading Baruch Spinoza's books on www.sacred-texts.com in the age of reason section. So far so good. I really am enjoying his book. I'm also going to read some of the others on that page and on google books. And I've read the info they have on the World Pantheist Movement website.

[lunaticheathen]

I suppose I'm kind of pantheist, since I believe all is divine, but I'm also animist, and I actually have perceived what I would call spirits, deities, some "other" kind of being. Fuego is entirely correct in saying there is no real authority on what pagans believe, and I've known many who consider their gods "just" concepts. But as influential as some concepts are, I'm not sure how "just" they are. How do you honor "just love?" I don't know.

I'm always learning myself, and I am no authority, but there are many ways to approach the idea of "all is divine." Divine doesn't mean supernatural, or "other." Or doesn't have to. I believe anything that can happen is natural. And I've perceived some very unusual things happening, but since it happened, it's natural. If that makes sense. Though I'm sure many people would doubt seriously what I have perceived from time to time.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I'm rather new to the whole pagan/New Age path, but the concept of channeling is very much related to the beings/gods/guides idea. I'm reading a book called "Writing the Divine" by Sara Wiseman, a basic introduction to coming into contact with this realm. I've experienced it before when I was a Christian, but thought I was talking to Jesus at the time. Now I'm looking back on what happened and trying to connect to that source again without the notions I had at the time. My take on it at this point is that there is a life force of some kind that we all have access to, and it can take on the personality of whatever we need at the time. To some it may be the goddess, to others a wolf, to others a Tibetan monk. Some see them as spirits that have gone on and become guides, others see them as the one spirit taking on faces that are useful for us as a reference point. So I think there is "someone" there, more than a mere concept, but that the method of interacting with it is done through faces that are meaningful to the person doing the channeling.

[Deva]

Most pagans that I've encountered don't think of the god or goddess (or others) as actual beings. It has always been more of a pantheist approach that everything and everyone is an extension of the one being. I suppose it depends on the people, especially with no "authority" in paganism.

 

Yes, in the pantheist approach there is only one substance, not two - one being, as you put it. It is not something different coming in from the outside.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

For me, if I decide to be pantheist, it would be more of a thing where I hold reverence for nature, and not do much with channeling, divination and stuff like that. Though I'm interested in having deities as symbols, but I don't believe that there are gods. Its more of a thing where I hold reverence for nature, and dabble more into philosophical thought.

[Guest Valk0010]

Reverence for nature, and the whole philosophical idea would be interesting from pantheism, but other then that nahhh.

[nightflight]

http://www.pantheism.net/

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

http://www.pantheism.net/

Checked that site out, its interesting, I'm still reading it.

\

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

I consider myself a pantheist pagan. I suffered sexual abuse and was brought up in shame of my femininity from Christianity so I found the Goddess to be a powerful symbol that helped me overcome all of that. I don't believe in actual beings that are separate or on a supernatural plane.

 

I really enjoy the seasonal holidays and celebrating the phases of the moon because it helps me align myself with the natural world in an age that tends to disconnect us. I like researching the religions of ages past because it helps me appreciate the timeline that has led to this point. I see how things are interconnected in a complex sequence of events and I am in awe of the internal balance that exists. I see it as the big picture - the earth was forged within the early sun and far into the future it will be reabsorbed in its expansion - and I see how that kind of cycle exists in the many levels of my life.

 

I enjoy the Goddess symbols of maiden, mother, crone and I relate them to many things in my life. Beginnings, fruition, endings, new beginnings. I enjoy the God symbol of hunter and prey. We have to take life to live, but eventually our lives will end to give way for new life. I see how these concepts exist in many cultures, even in Christianity, because its a part of being human.

 

I think about these things a lot and I remember from the Tao: The being that can be named is not the eternal Being. I do not know if some other force exists, but something divine, something supernatural would be beyond concept or language so I let go of the search for a 'relationship' with a personal being. I simply am, and I just want to experience what is as it is. For me, that is peace. There is no dichotomy of mind and body, human and natural - it is all one and the same.

[Shadow Wolf]

I have found pantheism to be the only path that really makes since. I also believe that all gods are nothing more than an archetype, to be used and harnessed for our own betterment (or destruction depending on what gods you follow and how you follow them). As for the creation of the universe, I really don't worry. The Big Bang happened, but you can't get something from nothing. But if God did create the big bang (or possible our universe being just a thought in this higher powers brain (an interesting theory IMO considering the appearance of the universe) that will exist for as long as this being holds us in thought), what created god or this higher being?

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Midnightmindwanderings,

Sorry you were sexually abused *hugs*

 

Christianity made me feel ashamed of being human, it wants everyone to feel ashamed, but women especially.

 

I too enjoy the seasonal stuff, though I've still celebrated all the holidays of all the religions I once called my own since my leaving them. Well most of them anyway. If I celebrated easter or even Ostara, It would interfere with Akitu which i personally think is better. Though I also celebrate Xmas (though I call it winter solstice, its still almost the same), Samhain, summer solstice, and a bunch of others.

 

I wanted to use deities as symbols, because when I was pagan, my goddess was Ishtar. The reasons are complex. Aside from her popular literature, most of what she stands for has nothing to do with sexuality nor gender, though those are 2 things we in our sexually deprived culture seem to take notice of. It is her going against cultural norms that i liked, that was her symbol. Similar in some ways to the feminist movement, in that they wanted to break the old rules of the man-ruled nation. They wanted equal rights for women. Ishtar was the only goddess to ever be considered higher than the gods in any semitic religion.

 

Shadow wolf,

Look up M-theory. There are probably alot more big bangs were our bang came from, and it just gives us a theory that's currently hard to test about it. There might have been a before the big bang after all. I mean before as in a sequence of events and not time, obviously our time began at the big bang.

[orlando]

Please read Spinoza. "The Ethics" is the greatest, but he also wrote the "Theological-Political Treatise." Way ahead of his time and very brilliant.

 

I struggled to read The Ethics in the early 90s. It took at least a month. Not an easy book since Spinoza chose to couch his philosophy in geometric form, but what little I did understand made quite an impact on me. I realized then that one could reject BibleGod and still have a real sense of wonder at the universe and a very sensible, ethical philosophy. I will not forget the sense of discovery this gave me. Too bad it was never taught in school.

 

I tried reading it and got bored with the format very quickly; however I read a book "about" Spinoza's ideas, which I found interesting. I'd recommend doing the same and then trying the original if you are keen. I am by no means undereducated and rarely struggle with a book, but this one has a really dry and needlessly complicated way of setting out the concepts.

[orlando]

I see, thanks the the reply Fuego! I too noticed that, but didn't put much thought into it. I, while pagan, always figured that I could find a real deity, and to no suprise I never did lol. Though the idea of deities as symbols is something I'm trying to find more info on, what is with that? What's that about?

 

Deva, thanks! I'm reading Baruch Spinoza's books on www.sacred-texts.com in the age of reason section. So far so good. I really am enjoying his book. I'm also going to read some of the others on that page and on google books. And I've read the info they have on the World Pantheist Movement website.

 

re. deities as "symbols" in Paganism, as I see it, it is a bit similar to how many Hindus see theirs - there is a kind of pantheistic, all-pervading underlying force, but they give it a recognisable "face" (or faceS, rather) by worshipping deities (in quite a literalistic way - all Hindu temples have big statues of them that are venerated). The Pagan deities give you something to relate to emotionally, something to pray to etc. But I think that still just leads to self-deception - you start thinking you have some warm personal relationship with the universe and the objective reality is the universe doesn't give a damn about you..

[orlando]

Reverence for nature, and the whole philosophical idea would be interesting from pantheism, but other then that nahhh.

 

this approach is called scientific or naturalistic pantheism - sort of sexed-up rationalism.. One way of looking at it is trying to enjoy the feeling that you are a natural part of a pretty amazing universe. Other forms of pantheism propose there is some mystical underlying force or unity that you can tap into, and that there is a sort of all-pervading intelligence and purpose to everything

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

re. deities as "symbols" in Paganism, as I see it, it is a bit similar to how many Hindus see theirs - there is a kind of pantheistic, all-pervading underlying force, but they give it a recognisable "face" (or faceS, rather) by worshipping deities (in quite a literalistic way - all Hindu temples have big statues of them that are venerated). The Pagan deities give you something to relate to emotionally, something to pray to etc. But I think that still just leads to self-deception - you start thinking you have some warm personal relationship with the universe and the objective reality is the universe doesn't give a damn about you..

I won't be praying, so its nothing to pray to. As who is there to pray to? My head?

 

I mean pantheism as in a reverence for nature. And deities as symbols, not as part of Ishvara, which hindus view to be the universe and more, which is their go. It wouldn't be self deception though, nor lead to it, at least not for me in the way I am doing it.

this approach is called scientific or naturalistic pantheism - sort of sexed-up rationalism.. One way of looking at it is trying to enjoy the feeling that you are a natural part of a pretty amazing universe. Other forms of pantheism propose there is some mystical underlying force or unity that you can tap into, and that there is a sort of all-pervading intelligence and purpose to everything

I don't believe in any of that metaphysical nonsense.

[Franko47]

It's all about how your consciousness interacts with reality.

 

 

Last night the clouds broke and the moon came out against the shadows of tall trees swaying in the night wind; a warm gusty affair that stirred my imagination and sense of wonderment that only a human can experience. Like a gentle voice reminding me that the universe is meaningless until we link to it with our minds.

 

Revel in your existence, my brothers and sisters. It's a gift, all of creation is a gift.

 

Don't know if that's Pantheistic, but I like it.

[lunaticheathen]

It's all about how your consciousness interacts with reality.

 

 

Last night the clouds broke and the moon came out against the shadows of tall trees swaying in the night wind; a warm gusty affair that stirred my imagination and sense of wonderment that only a human can experience. Like a gentle voice reminding me that the universe is meaningless until we link to it with our minds.

 

Revel in your existence, my brothers and sisters. It's a gift, all of creation is a gift.

 

Don't know if that's Pantheistic, but I like it.

 

I grok ya!

[NotBlinded]

I see, thanks the the reply Fuego! I too noticed that, but didn't put much thought into it. I, while pagan, always figured that I could find a real deity, and to no suprise I never did lol. Though the idea of deities as symbols is something I'm trying to find more info on, what is with that? What's that about?

 

Deva, thanks! I'm reading Baruch Spinoza's books on www.sacred-texts.com in the age of reason section. So far so good. I really am enjoying his book. I'm also going to read some of the others on that page and on google books. And I've read the info they have on the World Pantheist Movement website.

 

re. deities as "symbols" in Paganism, as I see it, it is a bit similar to how many Hindus see theirs - there is a kind of pantheistic, all-pervading underlying force, but they give it a recognisable "face" (or faceS, rather) by worshipping deities (in quite a literalistic way - all Hindu temples have big statues of them that are venerated). The Pagan deities give you something to relate to emotionally, something to pray to etc. But I think that still just leads to self-deception - you start thinking you have some warm personal relationship with the universe and the objective reality is the universe doesn't give a damn about you..

I understand what you mean about the statues. That will lead one to think they are separate from "all that is" and that is indeed misleading. In Hinduism, I'm pretty sure, we are all faces of the one God and if this is so, it can't be that we don't give a damn about ourselves because ourself as a separate existing entity doesn't exist. But there are those that worship the images (whether in thought or statue form) in probably most religions and idolatry has the effect of removing one from the diety as something existing apart from it.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

I've made my decision, I've become an atheistic pantheist, or s naturalist pantheist. Just want to let you all know since I brought this topic into being that I made up my mind. Not that I did much more than add a label. Reading the pantheist website made me think, "what do you mean become a pantheist Babylon? I'm already one". At least in the sense that I revere nature and all her awesomeness.

[Ouroboros]

I've made my decision, I've become an atheistic pantheist, or s naturalist pantheist. Just want to let you all know since I brought this topic into being that I made up my mind. Not that I did much more than add a label. Reading the pantheist website made me think, "what do you mean become a pantheist Babylon? I'm already one". At least in the sense that I revere nature and all her awesomeness.

That's what I am too. Atheist/Naturalist/Realist/Pantheist (or rather Pantentheist), and so on...

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

What's a pantentheist?

[Legion]

Of all the views of the divine pantheism makes the most sense to me. Nature as God, god in everything.

 

There was a day not to long ago when I was preparing to dig a ditch for some pipe. And while I was preparing for the task there was a moment when it seemed like clouds lifted from my mind. And I saw the grass, each blade of grass. I saw and heard birds, each bird. And I even sensed the tractor with which we were going to dig. Everything was vivid and connected. The mundane was sacred. I knew the mystery and beauty of existence, and everything was one.