jesus and the gospels

[- AUB -]

This could have been the marriage of different, and sometimes opposing concepts for ease in cultural assimilation, for propagandistic purposes.

 

The jews are sticklers for precise doctrinal and theological understanding, no way could they have mingled such a specific idea as messianic critera with anything else. More likely pagans liked the idea of jewish dogma and myth so commendered it for their cult, "confused" was a figure of speach, I'm just puzzled by the amalgim, its the only thing I can't figure out at this point, that initial fusion. Jews would not have fallen for it so it was not to get them to join, they are never a promising source of converts anyway.

 

TruthWarrior

 

The Buddhist elements in the NT are telling of a experimental period in the Petrine movement, that betrays the cult's greek origins. Though now even certain Jews believe in re-incarnation.

 

It all depends on if you want Jesus to exist.

 

For theists this is true, but as an objectivist, what I want is to know the truth, whatever that is, where not all subjectivists here.

 

acorn

 

Check your facts. We've heard all that roman record bull before, as to dying for a lie, ask all those martyrs for Islam, Judaism or Buddhism. Wake up, you have nothing to contribute but the party line, it's not even your opinions, unlike the better class of theists here, just the spoon fed shite you uncritically swollow, come back when you have something worth while to say. Your comments are bigoted and arrogant, and offend me, and serve as a reminder of why I swore to kill your faith.

[Reach]

This could have been the marriage of different, and sometimes opposing concepts for ease in cultural assimilation, for propagandistic purposes.

The jews are sticklers for precise doctrinal and theological understanding, no way could they have mingled such a specific idea as messianic critera with anything else. More likely pagans liked the idea of jewish dogma and myth so commendered it for their cult, "confused" was a figure of speach, I'm just puzzled by the amalgim, its the only thing I can't figure out at this point, that initial fusion. Jews would not have fallen for it so it was not to get them to join, they are never a promising source of converts anyway.

I tend to agree with you there. This marriage of pagan mythology and Christianity appears to be the activity of a pagan culture which would not have had a problem with a mixture. Jewish law and practice did not allow such a thing, jealously guarding their special position as the chosen of God, the apple of his eye. They were called to separateness, being set aside for God, and were commanded to not mingle with other nations.

[- AUB -]

the apple of his eye.

 

More like being held to a higher standard, so they get stiffed a lot more. The only thing they are guaranteed is never to be totally eradicated.

 

Acorn, keep that anti-semitic shite off this forum, we've had 2000 years of it, and it has done enough damage. Your Jesus was not Jewish, but a greek invention, even if the gospels are even remotely true it would have been a roman execusion, jews didn't kill for no reason, and nothing he was accused of was a capital crime. Study 1st century Judea, you'll see what a load the gospels where.

 

Its bad enough xtians go around claiming this jesus asshole was real, but to spread hatred by proclaming the jews where responsible for his alleged death when they have no proof of any of it is tantamount to libel. Your entitled to your beliefs (unfortunately) but any crap against jews that's just based on the clearly spun and racist NT is irresponsible, especialy considering history. Not that you'll allow yourself to acknowledge your faith's crimes against humanity or anything.

[godlessgrrl]

Hmm. I voted Legendary, although on second thought I probably should've voted Legendary/Mythical.

 

I am a scholar - my first degree was in History, with a background in Classics -- and what little evidence I've seen for Jesus' actual existence is inconclusive at best. He may have existed, he may not.

 

I figure the story of his life is about as true as the Trojan War. The location is there, some of the key players actually existed; but the rest is embellishment, a story created by a particular group for a particular purpose, which could be entertainment, propaganda, or whatever.

 

P, there are documents by the roman government for that time period, not the Christian body, that Jesus Christ was crucified, or in that precept, death sentence, for blasphemy, proclaiming to be God...

 

Even though I haven't seen anything proving Jesus' existence, as a historian I understand that new materials are always coming to light, and perhaps I've missed something. Acorn, please be so kind as to list which documents you are referring to, and provide a source so that I may take a look myself. (Unless you're referring to Josephus, in which case I've seen it...) Thank you.

 

[Vixentrox]

Yah...and we all know how unreliable Josephus is when it comes to references about Jesus.

[nirrti]

nirrti

 

Interesting interpretation, indeed you have (selectively of course) quoted correctly, (and that may have been certain writers intentions) but what do you base your position that he was historical on?

 

Good question, AUB. I guess when it comes to the question of Jesus's existance, I'm sort of a Jesus agnostic, meaning I can't say he did or didn't exist because I don't have any evidence that leans one way or the other to a conclusion.

 

I'm a new ex-christian so I'm still exploring what I truly believe and what's false. And that's a long and painful process if not at times enlightening. At this point, and it may change at any time as I explore more, it doesn't matter to me rather Jesus was historical or not. I don't know if Budda or Krishna actually existed either but I study their teachings also for the spiritual wisdom I can get out of them.

 

I do the same with Gary Zukav, Iyanla Vanzant, or Neale Walsh books. I think even Oprah Winfrey is a great example I can learn from. As for my relationship with God, as I said before, I believe he/she is everything and everyone in the universe, in other words, life (and love) itself. I get closer to spirit by loving other people, animals and take nature walks. I guess that's kind of my Pagan side coming out.

 

Everyone has to find their own way spiritually whether choosing to embrace a specific diety or embracing life.

[- AUB -]

nirrti

 

Sounds like you have a respect for reality, that you interpret spiritualy, I think that's a good idea, as for jesus, you'll get better ideas from Buddha than you will from him (I follow the rational Bodhisattva example), he's not the same type of character, there's elements of demagogue and hatred there, and should be treated with caution, I suggest concentrating on Indian wisdom, there's enough there for any lifetime, Gora and Ghandi are my favs.

[Kryten]

JP, there are documents by the roman government for that time period, not the Christian body, that Jesus Christ was crucified, or in that precept, death sentence, for blasphemy, proclaiming to be God, the sad part is that His own people put Him to death, but it fullfilled the word of God in the old testament. Alot of athiest type groups, believe all this was a fixed type event, but my only question is if this is true, it was the most herrofic, and lying scheme that ever took place in this worlds history> In that, the question is who have you or I ever known to go to death, a herrific, and grueling death, for a scheme, or a lie?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are repeating church dogma.

 

The only true religion must be Muslim because they are always giving up their lives in car-bombs, flying airplanes into buildings, and volunteering for other various suicide missions. SURELY THEY WOULDN'T DIE FOR A LIE??! I assume since you approve of this logic, you agree they were correct, right? Or is it more likely people die for what they THINK is right? Lots of people think lots of things. There have been many holy wars where thousands have given their lives for what they believed in. Were all of their beliefs true?? Bad apologetic argument. The TRUTH is that the people who should have been closest to the historical events, DID NOT BELIEVE!! Christianity did NOT spread much until it was taken to places far away from Jerusalem. Faith was required, NOT evidence.

 

I am sure there is no historical evidence that Jesus (of the gospels) ever lived. If you could come up with some, you'd be the most beloved Christian apologist in the whole wide world!! No one else has ever been able to do so...

 

Karl is correct. The evidence is pointing to a Jesus that lived about 100+ years too soon. Paul even thought the Jesus he saw might have lived about a century or so before him. (See "Jesus, 100 Years Before Christ")

[Panther]

I am sure there is no historical evidence that Jesus (of the gospels) ever lived.  If you could come up with some, you'd be the most beloved Christian apologist in the whole wide world!!  No one else has ever been able to do so... 

 

Wow, As you know Kryten, I am pretty new to being an "ex", LOL....this is something I have gone back and forth with...was Jesus even real? But you know, you solved that for me with the most simple answer ever.... Thank you!

[chefranden]

Please, Acorn, by all means give some reference to these "roman documents".

[Lizard]

I was torn between Legendary/Historical and Legendary/Mythical.

 

My reason? I think there is some Truth there..but..carried to what extreme? I don't know that Jesus actually lived. There are historical records of all sorts of happenings in that area. Why not a man who lived 33 years, 3 of which he went around healing and casting out demons and other stuff?

 

When you consider other cults..such as Jonestown and the Branch Davidians..stories surround the leaders, and perhaps had they not come to such a grizzly end, legends would have been built around them too.

 

Speculating here, and that's really all I have to go on, not facts, just my own thoughts and ideas..

 

A preacher/rabbi/teacher was teaching a new way in the overly legalistic way of the Jews. Of course, his new way contradicted why those in power were saying. It meant, to a degree, loss of control, loss of power.

 

Just like the story of the overturning of the seller's tables in the temple..it would also mean a loss of revenue. And when you come down to it, don't fuck with people's source of money!

 

The main crux of the gospels is one of love and peace amongst men. Good ideas, thoughts and ideals.

 

Then along comes Paul, formerly known as Saul. He was a legalistic pharisee. But, he wanted in on it too. It wasn't as lucrative killing the christians, so, he became one, and wrote a bunch of shit himself, adding back in the legalistic bullshit from the Jewish point of view.

 

Like any of the other fads that have been followed in times past, things got worse and worse. Like a bad game of telephone..by the book of Revelation, all were sinners going to hell and there was but one way to heaven. Of course, by the time they got to the Roman government taking over, it was so far removed from the original idea of love and peace among all men, to you gotta be one of them or you are killed.

 

Now, most of that has died down, we don't have the inquisistion anymore, except in a few fundiemental churches and message boards..

 

I take it all now as a few good lessons in morals and how to get along with others..those attributed to Jesus that is. Paul is an asshole who thinks if all don't believe what he put forth should be given over to satan to be consumed in the flesh..or some shit like that.

 

I also like to read Zen sayings and the baghavad gita..well..and Popular Science and quantum theories, though I am far from being able to discuss those. Should have spent the last 25 years studying that..instead of the bible, huh?

 

I don't know if any of that up there made any sense..just some of my rambling thoughts as I work things out for myself..deciding what is real, what is not. What to keep, what to toss..

 

This all simply my opinion for today and subject to change..as time goes on..and as that is my right as a freethinking person..I am free to think as I please..

[godlessgrrl]

Yah...and we all know how unreliable Josephus is when it comes to references about Jesus.

 

My point exactly. Josephus' account isn't convincing, and was probably tampered with later on by monks on a mission.

 

But y'all probably know that already.

[DaveL]

Legendary/Mythical for me

 

I saw a great documentary on the founder of the Hari Krishna movement last night.

 

I can see lots of parallels between Jesus and this guy.

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

[Christopher Carrion]

A cursory study of the history of biblical religion shows that not only are the core stories all bastardised derivatives of narratives drawn from a host of far older, "pagan" mythologies (most notably those of ancient Mesopotamian, Sumerian and Babylonian cultures), but that as Christianity's adherents felt moved to "spread the word", the faith incorporated certain images, stories and ceremonies from those cultures it subsumed. The modern preconception of "satan" as a horned, bestial figure is drawn directly from the Celtic God of the wilderness Carnun, whom when Christians first came to the grand old isle I call home was immediately affiliated by the invaders with their "Satan" figure due to the "carnal" rites associated with him. The name Satan itself is derived from one of the old Ancient Sumerian Gods, whose name was "Shaitan", and who was actually quite an honourable figure. Christmas is actually a bastardised version of the Celtic "Return of the Conquering Sun" ceremony, designed to celebrate the passing of winter into the fertility of Spring. Easter is named after Eostre, the celtic Goddess of fertility and copulation. It goes on and on and on; the hypocrisy of the faith is just never ending.

[dibby]

I believe that the stories were originally myth. Not based on lies neither an historical man. From what I have learnt myths were stories that encoded a different order of truth. The inner journey of the soul towards awakening , or what the ancients called Gnosis. We have inherited the greek name Jesus the Christ, in the language of the jews this is Joshua the Messiah.

 

The Joshua/Jesus story is an amalgamation of jewish and greek mythical motifs. They reworked the pagan story of the dying/ressurecting godman into the jewish messiah figure, with elements of the original Joshua story.

 

Joshua in the old testament led the jews to the promised land. Joshua of the new testament (jesus) leads his followers to the "promised land", eternal life.

[MQTA]

if the truth is stranger than fiction, imagine telling your 8 year old all about life, the brutal hard facts of chemistry, biology, physics, astronomy and everything there is to know about the life-sciences as we know them. Then have them write it all down.

 

the book would be 'inspired by their creator', no?

 

the book would be 'factual', as understood by an 8 yr old, no?

 

the book would probably contain glimmers of reality, no?

 

What blinded Paul? could it be a ship who could communicate directly with him via telepathic means we don't really still even understand yet? He was 'taken up' for 3 days to be taught 'what to preach?'

 

Revelation as given to John, taken up on a ship, to a council of 25 in a meeting room with trumpets (speakers) and visual devices/screens. what was being told to him was the first seal, the first revelation of our true roots after all those years since they left.

 

The other seals (chapters of our history) have all happened, seal 6 being the atomic bomb in WWII. Seal 7 is what may happen if another nuclear holocost happens.. the description though looks like the creators will be the ones doing that, if it should happen.

 

Imagine we are following in their learning curve footsteps. If we create other humans on another planet, someone from our government would establish a team trying to prove we shouldn't do it, they're dangerous. That's Satan and his group of them.

 

IT seems likes the Fall of Man was actually our RISE. It's a real interesting story seeing the players for who they really may have been. What a deception! The ultimate in irony

[Mythra]

OK. Who the fuck are you, and what have you done with MQTA?

[Taphophilia]

I think that someone may have gotten to MQTA's computer and pretended to be him. Perhaps he was on a public computer and didn't sign out?

 

Taph

[MQTA]

ROTFL

[MQTA]

I think that someone may have gotten to MQTA's computer and pretended to be him. Perhaps he was on a public computer and didn't sign out?

 

Taph

 

Actually, something started to happen the day after I wrote that that's going to change my life forever. In reality, it may have just started to get a whole lot better. Totally unexpected, but as the week went on, it started looking like a good deal instead of hell.

 

And strangely, a coupla pages in that ebook I read, I recalled seeing something on, searched for it, and it helped me GREATLY. I can handle this.

 

Wanna know what words came out of my mouth when it hit? "OH GOD! what am I going to do NOW"

 

The answer unfolded as the days went on. If this isn't divine intervention, I don't know what is. Something must have sparked the others involved. So I'm leaving this thread, I won't be around for a few days/weeks/??

 

~ and it's all me. it may have been just what I needed to handle this situation, so far, quite well.

 

Thursday is also the 2 yr anniversary of my mom's failed open heart surgery. My imagination, or her mommy tapes she always recorded into me, or maybe it is her? LOL, are all very helpful. Not sure how she'd be if she were alive.

 

Well... ciao ciao for now... *sigh*~ anara

 

When Reality Hits, watch out.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Wow. This whole Raelian thing has really gotten to MQTA. Mystifying.

[Guest JuLeSx7d7]

Hey all! just signed up and I'd figure I'd dive right in to the Lion's Den. I voted Historical based on the many eyewitnesses and out side christian sources. ex. Josephus

 

let the rotten tomatoes fly!!!

[Antlerman]

Hey all! just signed up and I'd figure I'd dive right in to the Lion's Den. I voted Historical based on the many eyewitnesses and out side christian sources. ex. Josephus

 

let the rotten tomatoes fly!!!

Actually, I'd serve you a nice heritage tomato salad with balsamic vinaigrette and a fresh mozzarella cheese, if you can actually provide some persuasive evidence that would convince a non-fundamentalist scholar . I make that qualification because it's rare to never when objectivity and fundamentalism go together.

 

I'll let our historical buffs deluge you with fruit, and I'll just sit here and wait here with the salad for you if you pull this off. But don't take too long though... it looks pretty damned tasty! (Of course they won't be in season for a few months yet, so you can work on it if you need to ).

 

BTW, Getting a credible history to the Jesus story might be a bonus if you can muster it, but it still is a long, long road from Jesus to Christ. Nice to have you here. I hope you’re a good fundamentalist and not the bad fruit we typically get around here. (You are a fundamentalist, aren't you?)

[Mythra]

You know what? The Testimonium Flavianum has been debunked here so repeatedly and so thoroughly, it's hard to want to (Eusebian Interpolation) get into it again.

 

P.S. Welcome Jules.

 

Even if you are just a little misinformed.

[SkepticOfBible]

Hey all! just signed up and I'd figure I'd dive right in to the Lion's Den. I voted Historical based on the many eyewitnesses and out side christian sources. ex. Josephus

 

Really!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Name one first hand eyewitness from the Gospel