Poonis Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Of those who have wanted such, who has actually spent time thinking about why it is they may have wanted to go to heaven in the first place? After spending the last couple months listening to countless sermons, evangelism, and whatnot on my local christian radio station KKMS (www.kkms.com), I have observed that a pre-requisite for each message or sermon is the assumption that one first desires to go to heaven. Am I incorrect to think that this is of greater foundational significance than jesus christ and salvation within christianity, by merit of would one still want to be saved if there were no heaven to go to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Isn't it part of the selfish desire to be part of the "it" group? The be one of the selected and special? And also the fear that death is the end, but no one wants it, so they want to go to heaven and keep on living their little life. Who really knows if heaven is such a great place? It could be just like false advertizing, it sounds good, but when you get there, it was nothing of what was promised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Who really knows if heaven is such a great place? It could be just like false advertizing, it sounds good, but when you get there, it was nothing of what was promised. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wouldn't that be a kick? If heaven really did exist, only once people got there, they found out that it had been over-hyped. Or maybe it once was nice, but it has fallen into a state of disrepair. Kinda like looking at a travel brochure to a tropical island. They never tell ya about the mosquitos, or the fact that they don't have any air condtioning in the rooms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 And also, to add to the dilemma, what about free will? It was the free will that put humans into trouble, so will God have to remove the free will to ensure the sin-free environment? Christians will become robots? ... ooh-ooh... they already are, they're practicing right now! That's the difference between heaven and hell. In hell you keep your free-will! In heaven you become a robot-zombies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanInPA Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 When we’ve been there ten thousand years,Bright shining as the sun, We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise Than when we’d first begun. Well, there's a meaningful eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Of those who have wanted such, who has actually spent time thinking about why it is they may have wanted to go to heaven in the first place? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is a really good question. I got a feeling that, if the truth were known, there are lots of christians who aren't all that jazzed about the concept of never-ending worship of God for all eternity. They just figure it's better than the alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Wouldn't that be a kick? If heaven really did exist, only once people got there, they found out that it had been over-hyped. Or maybe it once was nice, but it has fallen into a state of disrepair. Kinda like looking at a travel brochure to a tropical island. They never tell ya about the mosquitos, or the fact that they don't have any air condtioning in the rooms. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> yeah, it's the fantasy and wishful thinking to keep your mind off of the other possibilites. I love the Walt Disney commercials. Everything looks so great, smiles, and laughter. Then you get there, the lines are out of this world, it rains at least twice a day and when it's not raining you're seeking the water canopies because you're dripping sweat and attracting mosquitoes. Nothing ever pans out the way we imagine beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 And also, to add to the dilemma, what about free will? It was the free will that put humans into trouble, so will God have to remove the free will to ensure the sin-free environment? Christians will become robots? ... ooh-ooh... they already are, they're practicing right now! That's the difference between heaven and hell. In hell you keep your free-will! In heaven you become a robot-zombies! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don't forget the wailing and gnashing of teeth. What the heck is that? You mean we get to take our teeth with us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Don't forget the wailing and gnashing of teeth. What the heck is that? You mean we get to take our teeth with us? With fillings and everything! What about old people that have dentures? They'll bring the dentures to gnash with, or will God be so merciful that he gives them their teeth back before going to Hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 would one still want to be saved if there were no heaven to go to? A while back, Tap started a thread asking the ExCer's if they would come back to Christianity if there were no Hell and, what else would have to go from the gospels in order for us to come back. Needless to say, she received a bunch of replies to her thread. I started another thread asking Christians if they would still support/believe in the religion if there were no Heaven. I didn't get a single reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 A while back, Tap started a thread asking the ExCer's if they would come back to Christianity if there were no Hell and, what else would have to go from the gospels in order for us to come back. Needless to say, she received a bunch of replies to her thread. I started another thread asking Christians if they would still support/believe in the religion if there were no Heaven. I didn't get a single reply. Because we dare to think the what ifs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 With fillings and everything! What about old people that have dentures? They'll bring the dentures to gnash with, or will God be so merciful that he gives them their teeth back before going to Hell? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> then it would be gnashing of gums, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 A while back, Tap started a thread asking the ExCer's if they would come back to Christianity if there were no Hell and, what else would have to go from the gospels in order for us to come back. Needless to say, she received a bunch of replies to her thread. I started another thread asking Christians if they would still support/believe in the religion if there were no Heaven. I didn't get a single reply. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Now Fwee.....I think it was the other way around. YOU got the replies and I didn't. Nice to see you. Here it is: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=1719&st=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Now Fwee.....I think it was the other way around. YOU got the replies and I didn't. Nice to see you. Okay, I might have got a bunch of replies in my thread, but none of them answered the question whereas your thread actually got answers. I ain't diggin'em up either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Okay, I might have got a bunch of replies in my thread, but none of them answered the question whereas your thread actually got answers. I ain't diggin'em up either! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Here is Yours: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=1720&st=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Here is Yours: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=1720&st=0 Yup! I buzzed through it by the link within your thread. Like I said, no answers. (in my thread) I got three pages of bull pucky, and you got four pages of mostly serious answers. Told'ya I like the new avatar, TAP. Is it symbolic of anything in particular? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 I like the new avatar, TAP. Is it symbolic of anything in particular? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 I like the new avatar, TAP. Is it symbolic of anything in particular? Huh-oh... <<<sniff-sniff>>> What's that smell?!?! Do I smell PM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poonis Posted October 9, 2005 Author Share Posted October 9, 2005 All that I have figured out about the 'desire of heaven' is that it compensates for the 'fear of hell'. Of these two facets, conquor one, and the other falls. Heaven and hell play off of each other. There cannot just be the ideology of heaven or of hell, without the polar opposite for comparison. Comparison is key. If there were no hell, heaven compares to nothing. If there were no heaven, hell compares to nothing. We are then left, individually, to use only our psyche to determine for ourselves how good something is, or how bad something is. But the interesting thing is, is that we already do this anyway, christians and non-christians. No one here has been to heaven or hell, and cannot profess either from experience. Anytime someone professes either heaven or hell, they do so from nothing more than (1) what they have read about heaven or hell, and (2) what someone else has said about heaven or hell. If one does say they profess from experience, it is always comparible to what they themselves experience in life based upon their perception as defined by the five senses. But then again, this is 'experience' is derived from the individual's psyche, and not a place of super-natural existence. As for myself, I have found nothing, upon investigation, that shows me that the ideologies of heaven and hell are anything more than the imagination appealing to one's greatest desires and greatest fears. Being, then, that such imagination is the culmination of one's experiences in life, and the greatest fears and desires are attributed to that which is not natural, but supernatural, it is then that this person is both (1) afraid to live their life as it is now, and (2) desires more than they have in this life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 1/3 of the angels rebelled for a reason didn't they? Heaven can't be all that great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 It sounds nice and all, but the idea of no free will scares me to the bone. I deeply value my ability to choose what I want, even if I fuck it up. If I can't choose, it's not me living. I'm just a shell for someone else. Uhm... no. Heaven, Hell, it's two different forms of torture. In one, you're subjected to pain, in the other, utter emotional domination(manipulation?). I'd rather be dead. Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Fear of Death guides all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isak The Newt Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 False advertising... hmmm... I can already tell if heaven was real it'd be a bore... you'd just sit there for all eternity, not feeling anything... cuase your "CONTENT" O.o... You prob dont even feel love hate anger sorrow anything at all, just sitting there... i bet u cant even play a game of chess.. jeeez... O.o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diggin Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 Of those who have wanted such, who has actually spent time thinking about why it is they may have wanted to go to heaven in the first place? After spending the last couple months listening to countless sermons, evangelism, and whatnot on my local christian radio station KKMS (www.kkms.com), I have observed that a pre-requisite for each message or sermon is the assumption that one first desires to go to heaven. Am I incorrect to think that this is of greater foundational significance than jesus christ and salvation within christianity, by merit of would one still want to be saved if there were no heaven to go to? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Heaven was not the thing that the Bible first talked about. It was a restored earth. It is normal for people to want to live in harmony on earth, and that's what I believe the Bible promises. Heaven was a new destination concept, introduced by Jesus for his followers. It is not envisioned as a place where people walk on clouds. It is spoken of as a powerful invisible state, close contact with the throne of the universe and whatever the invisible realms are like -- we can only guess. But the followers of Jesus whose character is deserving and whose faith is above reproach will be like the "gates" of a city that is for all people. They will also be like the "golden streets" of that metaphorical city. In other words, the purity of the lives and overcoming of their troubles by true Christians will create doorways back to God for the world of mankind. And as people walk about, they will find the humble, enlightened, divine qualities of honest-to-goodness Christians (not the masses of hypocrites we all are familiar with) will rub off on them. These metaphors are described in Revelation 21. Isaiah 35 adds the insight that though bad folks won't enter, it will be for them. There will be no stumbling blocks and everyone will find it accessible ... and the vast majority of human beings who have ever lived will enjoy this metaphorical dwelling place -- wherever they live on the beautiful planet earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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