The desire of Heaven

[Poonis]

Heaven was not the thing that the Bible first talked about. It was a restored earth. It is normal for people to want to live in harmony on earth, and that's what I believe the Bible promises.

 

Heaven was a new destination concept, introduced by Jesus for his followers. It is not envisioned as a place where people walk on clouds. It is spoken of as a powerful invisible state, close contact with the throne of the universe and whatever the invisible realms are like -- we can only guess. But the followers of Jesus whose character is deserving and whose faith is above reproach will be like the "gates" of a city that is for all people. They will also be like the "golden streets" of that metaphorical city. In other words, the purity of the lives and overcoming of their troubles by true Christians will create doorways back to God for the world of mankind. And as people walk about, they will find the humble, enlightened, divine qualities of honest-to-goodness Christians (not the masses of hypocrites we all are familiar with) will rub off on them. These metaphors are described in Revelation 21.

 

Isaiah 35 adds the insight that though bad folks won't enter, it will be for them. There will be no stumbling blocks and everyone will find it accessible ... and the vast majority of human beings who have ever lived will enjoy this metaphorical dwelling place -- wherever they live on the beautiful planet earth.

 

 

(1) Do you want to go to heaven, and, if so, (2) why?

[All Gods Fail]

(1) Do you want to go to heaven, and, if so, (2) why?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I gotta admit, I wasn't all that jazzed about heaven when I was a believer. For me, it was strictly about avoiding hell. Heaven sounded kinda lame. We all sit around for eternity praising god? Yahoo.

 

Still, it beat roasting.

[daniel_1012]

Of those who have wanted such, who has actually spent time thinking about why it is they may have wanted to go to heaven in the first place?

 

After spending the last couple months listening to countless sermons, evangelism, and whatnot on my local christian radio station KKMS (www.kkms.com), I have observed that a pre-requisite for each message or sermon is the assumption that one first desires to go to heaven.

 

Am I incorrect to think that this is of greater foundational significance than jesus christ and salvation within christianity, by merit of would one still want to be saved if there were no heaven to go to?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the question that should be asked is, "why do so many people, throughout all cultures across the globe, seemingly have a call to worship some for of god?"

 

Humans... the only ones intellegent enough to advance technologically, and yet... the only ones who seek God. You would think that somewhere along the evolutionary process, that we would increase in knowledge (if men are fools for believing in a power beyond themselves), and not take a seemingly (if there really is no God) gigantic step in the opposite direction of evolution.

 

Did the "sense" to worship "god" evolve long ago, and at what time? I believe, just as the Bible says, His creation testifies that He exists... and it is clearly seen, in the things that He has made.

[Ouroboros]

We all sit around for eternity praising god? Yahoo.

Praising Yahoova!

[Amethyst]

I think the question that should be asked is, "why do so many people, throughout all cultures across the globe, seemingly have a call to worship some for of god?"

 

It's called intergenerational brainwashing. There's also probably a biological component somewhere (like someone else said, the tribes that believed in a god probably won over the other tribes for some reason, way back when). Doesn't mean it's true, though.

 

IMHO the only reason humans seek god is because so many people are so afraid of the unknown. They're afraid that "the other side" will be bad, and so they seek out cults that tell them the other side is good, if only you follow that cult. They want a security blanket, in other words. So far there is no proof that anything waits for us on the other side, be it bad or good.

 

Why can't people be content with natural death? We already know our bodies decompose afterward. We won't be around to worry about it. Why must humans seek to be something they are not? Humans are also the only species on this planet that seeks to be immortal -- immortality figures in so many legends. The animals don't have that kind of arrogance. It's only humans that seek that kind of power. IMHO, that doesn't prove a god exists. It just proves that humans are arrogant.

[MQTA]

Heaven

 

 

 

Every religion has its version of Heaven. Here we are mostly interested in the Christian version and will explore the prospects of an eternity in that heavenly place. In random order, we will examine some of the claims and you can decide if Heaven is the future place for you. Now, if I do not get this right, you write and correct me at: <dubious@ntin.net>.

 

Heaven is advertised to us as a perfect place, that is, everything is perfect. If you are an inventor or a tinker, there is nothing on which to improve, nothing to make better, nothing to fix. In short, there is nothing to challenge the creative mind. No one could write better songs to sing or play. No one could beat heavenly perfection in art or drama. There will be no room for enterprising entrepreneurs to manufacture or sale new products. In other words, if there is perfection, there is no room for improvement. Thus, creative energy, vision, ambition and inspiration all become a non perfect commodity in a perfect environment. So, if there really is perfection in Heaven then the human desire to create, improve and modify the status quo must be eliminated in all the inhabitants of Heaven. Here on earth, when the desire to create, improve and modify the status quo is not a part of a person's mental attitude, that person is considered to be a dull, zombie type of person. Sometimes they are also referred to as Christians. But then, who can quarrel with perfection?

 

There is some hope for fiction writers, especially science fiction writers. It seems that Jehovah needs some help in fiction writing since he did such a poor job with his Holy Book. In fact, he cannot even tell the same story twice without getting his facts wrong. So there may also be an opening for a good researcher and a good editor.

 

We are told the streets are paved with gold. There is a great opportunity here for someone to invent and sell (or distribute) sunglasses to cut the glare of the gold. Also, God is so bright that one cannot look upon him without hurting their eyes or going blind. I can just see everyone in Heaven with a pair of Lens Crafter’s dark glasses.

 

How about the temperature In Heaven? We know about what the temperature is in that place called Hell, but what about Heaven? To me, 70 to 74 degrees is perfect but to an Eskimo, that is hot. To the people who live in the torrid zones of earth, 72 degrees is definitely cold. Who will regulate the thermostat in Heaven?

 

Will there be seasons in Heaven? If not, will we not get tired of perfect weather? If there is no weather, what will we have to talk about? And speaking of talk, will gossip be allowed in Heaven? If not, there are a lot of female people who will go insane trying to hold a juicy tidbit in tow.

 

Heaven is called the throne of God and a river runs in front of the throne. Is this the River of Life, and can we drink of the waters? Are there any fish in the river? If you catch a fish with your hands, could you eat it if there is no appetite in a perfect body? Would it be a crime in Heaven if you caught a fish out of the river? Can there be a crime in a perfect place? What could it possibly be?

[diggin]

Heaven was not the thing that the Bible first talked about. It was a restored earth. It is normal for people to want to live in harmony on earth, and that's what I believe the Bible promises.

 

Heaven was a new destination concept, introduced by Jesus for his followers. It is not envisioned as a place where people walk on clouds. It is spoken of as a powerful invisible state, close contact with the throne of the universe and whatever the invisible realms are like -- we can only guess. But the followers of Jesus whose character is deserving and whose faith is above reproach will be like the "gates" of a city that is for all people. They will also be like the "golden streets" of that metaphorical city. In other words, the purity of the lives and overcoming of their troubles by true Christians will create doorways back to God for the world of mankind. And as people walk about, they will find the humble, enlightened, divine qualities of honest-to-goodness Christians (not the masses of hypocrites we all are familiar with) will rub off on them. These metaphors are described in Revelation 21.

 

Isaiah 35 adds the insight that though bad folks won't enter, it will be for them. There will be no stumbling blocks and everyone will find it accessible ... and the vast majority of human beings who have ever lived will enjoy this metaphorical dwelling place -- wherever they live on the beautiful planet earth.

97901[/snapback]

 

 

(1) Do you want to go to heaven, and, if so, (2) why?

98549[/snapback]

 

It is my perception that heaven will involve 3 things that are very desirable to me:

1. The ability to move all over the universe, and perceive an immaterial creation as well.

2. The ability to see God as he is, face to face.

3. The opportunity to be part of the team that will be helping the world of mankind retrace its steps, and learn what God is really like.

 

Of the 3, I can relate to the third one the most, but I'm sure all 3 will be really amazing and wonderful and, of course, much more than I or anyone else would ever deserve.

 

But earth will be fantastic and a thrilling place to live when the human race has learned how to live in harmony.

[Cerise]

But earth will be fantastic and a thrilling place to live when the human race has learned how to live in harmony.

 

 

I can't see as how earth without free will is going to be "thrilling". Or homogenous worship as "thrilling". I think it'd be rather boring, actually.

[Poonis]

I think the question that should be asked is, "why do so many people, throughout all cultures across the globe, seemingly have a call to worship some for of god?"

 

Stop right there: Within the first two words, you have erred. You said "I think". No, you do not.

 

I asked my question specifically about the desire of heaven. People worship gods because they are afraid of the unknown and are told that said gods have the power to overcome said unknowns.

[Poonis]

Heaven was not the thing that the Bible first talked about. It was a restored earth. It is normal for people to want to live in harmony on earth, and that's what I believe the Bible promises.

 

Heaven was a new destination concept, introduced by Jesus for his followers. It is not envisioned as a place where people walk on clouds. It is spoken of as a powerful invisible state, close contact with the throne of the universe and whatever the invisible realms are like -- we can only guess. But the followers of Jesus whose character is deserving and whose faith is above reproach will be like the "gates" of a city that is for all people. They will also be like the "golden streets" of that metaphorical city. In other words, the purity of the lives and overcoming of their troubles by true Christians will create doorways back to God for the world of mankind. And as people walk about, they will find the humble, enlightened, divine qualities of honest-to-goodness Christians (not the masses of hypocrites we all are familiar with) will rub off on them. These metaphors are described in Revelation 21.

 

Isaiah 35 adds the insight that though bad folks won't enter, it will be for them. There will be no stumbling blocks and everyone will find it accessible ... and the vast majority of human beings who have ever lived will enjoy this metaphorical dwelling place -- wherever they live on the beautiful planet earth.

97901[/snapback]

 

 

(1) Do you want to go to heaven, and, if so, (2) why?

98549[/snapback]

 

It is my perception that heaven will involve 3 things that are very desirable to me:

1. The ability to move all over the universe, and perceive an immaterial creation as well.

2. The ability to see God as he is, face to face.

3. The opportunity to be part of the team that will be helping the world of mankind retrace its steps, and learn what God is really like.

 

Of the 3, I can relate to the third one the most, but I'm sure all 3 will be really amazing and wonderful and, of course, much more than I or anyone else would ever deserve.

 

But earth will be fantastic and a thrilling place to live when the human race has learned how to live in harmony.

101317[/snapback]

 

 

Of your 3 things you have listed as to why you desire to go to heaven:

 

1. How do you know you will have the ability to move all over the universe, and perceive and immaterial creation as well?

2. How do you know you will have the ability to see God as he is, face to face?

3. How do you know you will have the opportunity to be part of the team that will be helping the world of mankind retrace its steps, and learn what God is really like?

[Vixentrox]

Of your 3 things you have listed as to why you desire to go to heaven:

 

1. How do you know you will have the ability to move all over the universe, and perceive and immaterial creation as well?

2. How do you know you will have the ability to see God as he is, face to face?

3. How do you know you will have the opportunity to be part of the team that will be helping the world of mankind retrace its steps, and learn what God is really like?

101944[/snapback]

It's his fantasy of course. He has nothing to back it up.

[Asuryan]

I didn't wish to go to heaven because of my fear of the unknown, I wished to go to heaven because of my fear of hell.

Everybody kept telling me that there is a hell.

My family... other children... the nuns of the religious kindergarten I went to... the sunday school... and, heck, the fear of hell was instilled on me even when I was simply watching TV.

 

Disney's Fantasia <--- The last cartoon is a medley of two songs, whose titles I know but don't know how to translate right. In the first half, you see a mountain with satan towering over it, surrounded by horrible demons, witches, ghosts, and other scary figures. In the second half, the Ave Maria's notes resonate, and chase away the horrible demons, forcing Satan into a deep sleep, and then started a series of holy music coupled with images of light, peace, people doing a procession, the majestical sun over the clouds...

 

Disney's A christmas carol <--- the spirit of the future christmas shows the poor, terrified scrooge an horrible hell, with fire and brimstone and an open coffin that awaits him spewing out flames.

 

So I thought that the only way to avoid hell (which everything, EVERYTHING around me told me it existed and was pretty real and scary) and all those horrible images of demons and torture, was trying to get in heaven.

[diggin]

Heaven was not the thing that the Bible first talked about. It was a restored earth. It is normal for people to want to live in harmony on earth, and that's what I believe the Bible promises.

 

Heaven was a new destination concept, introduced by Jesus for his followers. It is not envisioned as a place where people walk on clouds. It is spoken of as a powerful invisible state, close contact with the throne of the universe and whatever the invisible realms are like -- we can only guess. But the followers of Jesus whose character is deserving and whose faith is above reproach will be like the "gates" of a city that is for all people. They will also be like the "golden streets" of that metaphorical city. In other words, the purity of the lives and overcoming of their troubles by true Christians will create doorways back to God for the world of mankind. And as people walk about, they will find the humble, enlightened, divine qualities of honest-to-goodness Christians (not the masses of hypocrites we all are familiar with) will rub off on them. These metaphors are described in Revelation 21.

 

Isaiah 35 adds the insight that though bad folks won't enter, it will be for them. There will be no stumbling blocks and everyone will find it accessible ... and the vast majority of human beings who have ever lived will enjoy this metaphorical dwelling place -- wherever they live on the beautiful planet earth.

97901[/snapback]

 

 

(1) Do you want to go to heaven, and, if so, (2) why?

98549[/snapback]

 

It is my perception that heaven will involve 3 things that are very desirable to me:

1. The ability to move all over the universe, and perceive an immaterial creation as well.

2. The ability to see God as he is, face to face.

3. The opportunity to be part of the team that will be helping the world of mankind retrace its steps, and learn what God is really like.

 

Of the 3, I can relate to the third one the most, but I'm sure all 3 will be really amazing and wonderful and, of course, much more than I or anyone else would ever deserve.

 

But earth will be fantastic and a thrilling place to live when the human race has learned how to live in harmony.

101317[/snapback]

 

 

Of your 3 things you have listed as to why you desire to go to heaven:

 

1. How do you know you will have the ability to move all over the universe, and perceive and immaterial creation as well?

 

The Bible talks about angels, principalities, powers, unseen spiritual powers and forces. It presents the idea that in addition to the material universe there is a realm that is apparently unperceivable to man, but real nevertheless. Ephesians 6:12, 1 Corinthians 2:9-10, John 14:2

 

Though even Christians cannot really comprehend or imagine what that realm is like, there are a number of fantastic "visions" or metaphorical descriptions of aspects of God's character and nature. Examples: Revelation 2:18; Isaiah 6:1-3; Ezekiel 1:3-13.

 

Jesus was reported to have appeared in a locked and bolted room, then vanished into thin air. John 20:26-29

 

Peter called the promised condition of believers, after their "change", "the divine nature." 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 20:1-4

 

 

2. How do you know you will have the ability to see God as he is, face to face?

 

While humans cannot see God face to face (Exodus 33:20-23), faithful Christians are promised a spiritual resurrection and that ability. 1 Corinthians 15:42-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; 2 Peter 1:2-4

 

The location is described as the "throne" of God. Revelation 3:21; Revelation 22:4

 

3. How do you know you will have the opportunity to be part of the team that will be helping the world of mankind retrace its steps, and learn what God is really like?

101944[/snapback]

 

Numerous statements say that the entire world will be resurrected, converted, instructed, enlightened, fed, healed, and ultimately happy. Examples:

Isaiah 14:7; 25:6-9, 35:1-10, Jeremiah 31:30-31; Zephaniah 3:8,9, Isaiah 26:9,19; Isaiah 65:20-22

 

The folks who are faithful to Jesus will be involved in the rulership of the world during its rehabilitation. This work involves sacrificial efforts at mediation, and is pictured by the concept of "priesthood", and it also involves decision-making and problem-solving -- the concept of "judging": 1 Corinthians 6:2,3; Revelation 5:10; Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 2:26-27

As to healing and blessing: John 5:25-29, John 14:12

 

This group is unknown at the present time -- only God knows who his sons really are right now. No denomination can lay claim, though many act as though they have the market cornered; but the people in general groan during the time of waiting for the true followers of Christ to be revealed.

Romans 8:22--28; 2 Timothy 2:19

 

This group is called the "bride", who together with Jesus bring life to the entire world: 2 Cor 11:2; Revelation 21:1-4, Rev 22:17

 

God has been hiding himself, but will not forever. God's purpose or determined will is the salvation of all from death, and their enlightenment. Isaiah 45:15-23; 1 Timothy 2:4-6

[diggin]

Of your 3 things you have listed as to why you desire to go to heaven:

 

1. How do you know you will have the ability to move all over the universe, and perceive and immaterial creation as well?

2. How do you know you will have the ability to see God as he is, face to face?

3. How do you know you will have the opportunity to be part of the team that will be helping the world of mankind retrace its steps, and learn what God is really like?

101944[/snapback]

It's his fantasy of course. He has nothing to back it up.

101997[/snapback]

 

I'm not the brightest bulb in the socket but with each passing year I keep finding things in the Bible that are reliable, and keep finding things in myself, other writers, and our society that are unreliable. Especially American Christianity; so I'm not offended that you lump me in with the whole pile.

 

I'm like the guy Mark Twain describes, who at age 15 had a father who was so stupid, he couldn't stand him ... but who at age 22 was amazed at how much his dad had learned in the last 7 years...

[Ouroboros]

I'm not the brightest bulb in the socket but with each passing year I keep finding things in the Bible that are reliable, and keep finding things in myself, other writers, and our society that are unreliable. Especially American Christianity; so I'm not offended that you lump me in with the whole pile.

I think you deserve to be in the pile we have for the middle-kind of Christians, the nicer ones. You have had a good attitude in the debates, as far as I can remember (which usually not so far ).

 

I'm like the guy Mark Twain describes, who at age 15 had a father who was so stupid, he couldn't stand him ... but who at age 22 was amazed at how much his dad had learned in the last 7 years...

103244[/snapback]

That's a very good quote. Not until you get your own family do you realize how much your parents had to go through.

 

Back to the regular programming...

 

Why do people have a desire of Heaven? Because they're afraid of death, and it gives them the hope that it's not over. It's a mental and emotional crutch. They can't accept the unknown, or the end of your own minds. Which is a very egotistical attitude. "My mind is so important, that I need to go to Heaven, to save my brilliant mind for eternity." Have you ever met a Christian that prayed "God, I let my life down in exchage for 'Bob'. Take me to Hell, but let him go to Heaven?" Why not? Because they don't want to miss their own chance of Heaven... fulfilling their own selfish needs...

[Poonis]

Heaven was not the thing that the Bible first talked about. It was a restored earth. It is normal for people to want to live in harmony on earth, and that's what I believe the Bible promises.

 

Heaven was a new destination concept, introduced by Jesus for his followers. It is not envisioned as a place where people walk on clouds. It is spoken of as a powerful invisible state, close contact with the throne of the universe and whatever the invisible realms are like -- we can only guess. But the followers of Jesus whose character is deserving and whose faith is above reproach will be like the "gates" of a city that is for all people. They will also be like the "golden streets" of that metaphorical city. In other words, the purity of the lives and overcoming of their troubles by true Christians will create doorways back to God for the world of mankind. And as people walk about, they will find the humble, enlightened, divine qualities of honest-to-goodness Christians (not the masses of hypocrites we all are familiar with) will rub off on them. These metaphors are described in Revelation 21.

 

Isaiah 35 adds the insight that though bad folks won't enter, it will be for them. There will be no stumbling blocks and everyone will find it accessible ... and the vast majority of human beings who have ever lived will enjoy this metaphorical dwelling place -- wherever they live on the beautiful planet earth.

97901[/snapback]

 

 

(1) Do you want to go to heaven, and, if so, (2) why?

98549[/snapback]

 

It is my perception that heaven will involve 3 things that are very desirable to me:

1. The ability to move all over the universe, and perceive an immaterial creation as well.

2. The ability to see God as he is, face to face.

3. The opportunity to be part of the team that will be helping the world of mankind retrace its steps, and learn what God is really like.

 

Of the 3, I can relate to the third one the most, but I'm sure all 3 will be really amazing and wonderful and, of course, much more than I or anyone else would ever deserve.

 

But earth will be fantastic and a thrilling place to live when the human race has learned how to live in harmony.

101317[/snapback]

 

 

Of your 3 things you have listed as to why you desire to go to heaven:

 

1. How do you know you will have the ability to move all over the universe, and perceive and immaterial creation as well?

 

The Bible talks about angels, principalities, powers, unseen spiritual powers and forces. It presents the idea that in addition to the material universe there is a realm that is apparently unperceivable to man, but real nevertheless. Ephesians 6:12, 1 Corinthians 2:9-10, John 14:2

 

Though even Christians cannot really comprehend or imagine what that realm is like, there are a number of fantastic "visions" or metaphorical descriptions of aspects of God's character and nature. Examples: Revelation 2:18; Isaiah 6:1-3; Ezekiel 1:3-13.

 

Jesus was reported to have appeared in a locked and bolted room, then vanished into thin air. John 20:26-29

 

Peter called the promised condition of believers, after their "change", "the divine nature." 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 20:1-4

 

 

2. How do you know you will have the ability to see God as he is, face to face?

 

While humans cannot see God face to face (Exodus 33:20-23), faithful Christians are promised a spiritual resurrection and that ability. 1 Corinthians 15:42-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; 2 Peter 1:2-4

 

The location is described as the "throne" of God. Revelation 3:21; Revelation 22:4

 

3. How do you know you will have the opportunity to be part of the team that will be helping the world of mankind retrace its steps, and learn what God is really like?

101944[/snapback]

 

Numerous statements say that the entire world will be resurrected, converted, instructed, enlightened, fed, healed, and ultimately happy. Examples:

Isaiah 14:7; 25:6-9, 35:1-10, Jeremiah 31:30-31; Zephaniah 3:8,9, Isaiah 26:9,19; Isaiah 65:20-22

 

The folks who are faithful to Jesus will be involved in the rulership of the world during its rehabilitation. This work involves sacrificial efforts at mediation, and is pictured by the concept of "priesthood", and it also involves decision-making and problem-solving -- the concept of "judging": 1 Corinthians 6:2,3; Revelation 5:10; Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 2:26-27

As to healing and blessing: John 5:25-29, John 14:12

 

This group is unknown at the present time -- only God knows who his sons really are right now. No denomination can lay claim, though many act as though they have the market cornered; but the people in general groan during the time of waiting for the true followers of Christ to be revealed.

Romans 8:22--28; 2 Timothy 2:19

 

This group is called the "bride", who together with Jesus bring life to the entire world: 2 Cor 11:2; Revelation 21:1-4, Rev 22:17

 

God has been hiding himself, but will not forever. God's purpose or determined will is the salvation of all from death, and their enlightenment. Isaiah 45:15-23; 1 Timothy 2:4-6

103240[/snapback]

 

On all three points, I asked 'how do you know...' and you reply that your knowledge is derived from having read about Heaven somewhere: the bible. I don't think I would be far off from assuming you have also heard other christians (fellow christians, clergy, et. al.) stating the same or similar.

 

Previously, I asked if you desired to go to heaven, and in this reply you stated what it is that you desire. To this I ask: Did you first desire Heaven and then read/hear about it, or did you first read/hear about Heaven, then desire it?

[diggin]

But earth will be fantastic and a thrilling place to live when the human race has learned how to live in harmony.

 

 

I can't see as how earth without free will is going to be "thrilling". Or homogenous worship as "thrilling". I think it'd be rather boring, actually.

101933[/snapback]

 

Who said "without free will"? Did I say "without free will"? Freedom will begin when people are not slaves of their own apetites, or enslaved by others who are "free" to exploit them.

 

Freedom will begin when your life, opportunity, and potential stretches on and on, without limit. You'll be free to be a physicist, or a musician, or a mathemetician, or a designer of shoes. You will be free to develop new strains of orchids, or breed a mockingbird with red tail feathers. Wanna do a primary-source history of the Middle Passage? All the dead slaves the Christians threw overboard are coming back. Ask them, do a movie, do a book, do a hologram. Document their visit of the land their children lived in, record the new songs they compose when they go through the process of grief, and rebuke, and forgiveness, and healing as they confront the very guys who sold them, whipped them, raped them, murdered them. Follow someone who spent this life in blindness around as he discovers what the world looks like. Videotape Helen Keller's reaction when she can both see and hear.

 

Start making movies about life starting up again. Start writing poetry about Flanders fields where poppies grow and now soldiers are popping out of the graves. Discover what Afghanistan could feel like if they didn't have to sell poppies to American junkies. Discover what common people will do when they don't have to put up with poppycock from politicians. Or what famous people will do when they are no longer hounded by popparazzi.

 

There will be incredible diversity, imagination and enthusiasm. I was just in Seattle, where lots of folks can't possibly afford a decent house. Imagine a world where everyone can build their own house, just the way they want it, and live in it as long as they wish ... however many centuries they want to. Isaiah 65:21

 

Imagine a world where people are more valuable than money. Isaiah 13:12

 

Imagine a world where the only thing people are not free to do is hurt or destroy. Isaiah 11:9

 

Spontaneous, free, exuberant, singing. Isaiah 14:7

 

Never again will there be manipulative, hypocritical "worship". Never again will there be lies told in God's name, or threats of endless torment, or ignorance passing for erudition.

 

Boring schmoring! :-)

[Ouroboros]

Poonis, just a little hint. Please try to reduce the quote part, at least the pieces that you don't respond to.

Sometimes you can just keep the one or two paragraphs that kind of sums the quote, and just keep the little "<<" link thingy.

[diggin]

On all three points, I asked 'how do you know...' and you reply that your knowledge is derived from having read about Heaven somewhere: the bible. I don't think I would be far off from assuming you have also heard other christians (fellow christians, clergy, et. al.) stating the same or similar.

 

Previously, I asked if you desired to go to heaven, and in this reply you stated what it is that you desire. To this I ask: Did you first desire Heaven and then read/hear about it, or did you first read/hear about Heaven, then desire it?

103312[/snapback]

 

When I was 16 I became convinced from reading the Bible that God planned to make the world and its people into a paradise. To me, that prospect was fine. I'd be delighted with that. Heaven didn't seem like much of a personal attraction to me. About that time, my best friend died off leukemia. Part of me was angry with God for the unfairness of having a brighter fellow than me die of a disease, while I kept lurching along. Over time, however, I became persuaded, again by reading and talking to other believers, that the only real door of opportunity available right now for someone who wants to make his life count is to take advantage of the "high calling" I read about in the Bible. So when I had "counted the cost", I made a decision to meet the conditions of Romans 12:1,2.

 

That's way too wordy but I'm trying to answer you straight-up. I read, (Ephesians 3:4) and as a result I began to understand the Mystery of God's will for me. But lots of Christians have different approaches to the matter. How we know things, epistemology, is always challenging.

[The Holy Ghost]

To this I ask: Did you first desire Heaven and then read/hear about it, or did you first read/hear about Heaven, then desire it?

I myself witnessed Heaven first-sheet. Then when I came down here and heard about it, I no longer desired to go back because, if that's the way it really is, then I'd have to be a genuine nutcase to want to go back.

 

Hahahahahahaha! I crack Ourselves up sometimes.

[Cerise]

Who said "without free will"? Did I say "without free will"? Freedom will begin when people are not slaves of their own apetites, or enslaved by others who are "free" to exploit them.

 

You god exploits everyone. How shall we ever be free of him?

 

Freedom will begin when your life, opportunity, and potential stretches on and on, without limit. You'll be free to be a physicist, or a musician, or a mathemetician, or a designer of shoes.

 

Why would heaven need shoes? Or physics? Or music? Why would heaven need mathematics? Why would heaven need orchids or mockingbirds or book archives or sandwiches or settes or spoons? Need is what happens on earth, in imperfect worlds, in worlds of desire and uncertainty and desperation and passion. Need doesn't happen in a perfect world. I'm pretty sure all these things you mention can't happen there either.

 

All the dead slaves the Christians threw overboard are coming back. Ask them, do a movie, do a book, do a hologram. Document their visit of the land their children lived in, record the new songs they compose when they go through the process of grief, and rebuke, and forgiveness, and healing as they confront the very guys who sold them, whipped them, raped them, murdered them.

 

Follow them as they wander the streets of heaven only to realize the scum that raped them and murdered them and humiliated their sons and chained up their daughters is here, enfolded in the arms of your god and happy and cleaned of all guilt. Follow that story. Document that. Oh but wait, wait, the forgiveness police will be along soon so that you can disregard the injustice of that. Or maybe some ultimate orchid breeding physicist will come along and give them a phial that makes them forget they were ever wronged. Then everything would be perfect.

 

But you're right. Definitely not boring.

 

More like...disturbing.

[diggin]

Follow them as they wander the streets of heaven only to realize the scum that raped them and murdered them and humiliated their sons and chained up their daughters is here, enfolded in the arms of your god and happy and cleaned of all guilt.  Follow that story.  Document that.  Oh but wait, wait, the forgiveness police will be along soon so that you can disregard the injustice of that.  Or maybe some ultimate orchid breeding physicist will come along and give them a phial that makes them forget they were ever wronged.  Then everything would be perfect.

 

The concept I was speaking of is not a whitewash of the pain people have experienced, but rather a complete rectification and reconcilation. Defining reconciliation as a bilateral agreement involving recognition of past offences on both sides, and mutual change and concessions that result in mutual agreement going forward. (I just made that definition up but that's what I mean by the term) :-)

 

* * *

 

Let's forget my argument and all things Biblical. What is your explanation for pain and injustice in the world? Is it an objective reality, is it a bad thing, and does it have a remedy?

[Cerise]

Some things can't be rectified. Some things can't be reconciled. Some things just are.

 

There is no explanation for pain. Or, perhaps there is an explanation, but no excuse.

 

Say it honestly, diggin: if there was a way to create a world with no pain, no injustice...why would we have to wait for it? What kind of being would withold such a place for so many years?

[mwc]

Say it honestly, diggin: if there was a way to create a world with no pain, no injustice...why would we have to wait for it?  What kind of being would withold such a place for so many years?

Why wait for it? We had it. The was supposedly the very first thing. A perfect world like you describe. But, that's right, we screwed it up. So what guarantee is there that there won't be another "tree" in this new place and it gets screwed up too? The bible doesn't go into that so any number of little "surprises" could be waiting in this new paradise for humans to screw up.

 

Unfortunately, the xians have no good answer for this. God says it will be perfect. So? The bible says this first go around was perfect too. The only difference I can see between this one and the "next" one is the lack of water for those lucky few that go to the bonus round.

 

mwc

[diggin]

Some things can't be rectified.  Some things can't be reconciled.  Some things just are.

 

There is no explanation for pain.  Or, perhaps there is an explanation, but no excuse.

 

Say it honestly, diggin: if there was a way to create a world with no pain, no injustice...why would we have to wait for it?  What kind of being would withold such a place for so many years?

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The only way to create a world free of pain, all at once, would be to make all the creatures robots.

 

To create a world of persons, with interesting diversity, and intelligence, and free will, it is necessary to allow them to make mistakes for a while.

 

The scandal of mainstream Christianity is that they blame each person for the mistake of the first man. But God does not. "He knows our frame. He remembers that we are dust." "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them." (2 Corinthians 5:19)

 

Most Christians make the mistake of applying that last verse, and its ilk, only to themselves. But John is emphatic: "Jesus died for our sins. And not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

 

I don't mean to offend you by quoting scripture.... because I acknowledge that for you, the bible is not authoritative. I'm just trying to offer a basis for my claim that the Bible does not present the caricature of a "loving" but really spiteful God -- a vengeful deity that so reasonably and naturally angers you. The truth is that the concept of God presented by mainstream Christian teachings is indeed a disgrace.

 

You asked for reasons why God would allow all these millennia of delay. Here are 2 answers:

 

1. The world was engineered to hold a significant population of people, and God is giving that entire population exposure to self-will and sin so that they can get some first-hand experience with the "pleasures of sin" -- which is the main thing the first man lacked.

 

2. The broken world is an ideal place to develop a family of leaders who follow Jesus' example. By that, I mean people who'll do the right thing when there's no earthly advantage in doing so. People who'll say what they think the truth is, regardless of whether it costs them their office or their parsonage or their reputation. People who'll help others, not because it makes them feel better or holier than thou or whatever, but because that other person is a human being too, and therefore as much or more deserving of the benefits of life than we are. Though most claimants to the title of "Christian" are indeed bogus as Jesus predicted, there is some very precious fruitage of the harsh circumstances; folks who are amazingly kind, loving, humble, and noble. These folks will be the leaders of the future age, as many verses describe it. (And I am confident that nobility in every religious context, regardless of conversion to Christianity in this life, will be of inestimable value in the next age, under the tutelage of the Messiah)

 

Suppose God made people who were not free, not intelligent enough to see the possibility of trying forbidden paths, which God had not directed. Suppose that every little detail of life had to be spelled out, so that for thousands of years God had to explain every matter, in an effort to persuade people not to do what he disapproved of? Or suppose he simply coerced or physically restrained people into doing "good" things (as defined by God) Would that have been a better scenario? As a parent, there are times when the best thing I can do for my kids is let them plow into a challenge, let them make some mistakes that they seem determined to make.

 

Suppose God individually created every baby perfect, so that it was already capable of perfect obedience from its birth. In that scenario, every kid would be on trial so to speak. Suppose God placed the 10 commandments in everyone's living room, on every street corner, in every public building -- divinely carved tables of the law. What would he do to each individual who strayed away, who decided to commit adultery, or became jealous of his neighbor's Lamborgini? Would God have to also take daily personal control of their life? Would he have to send out lightning bolts to kill transgressors? Would people who avoided temptation by becoming fearful zombies be virtuous?

 

Suppose God always rewarded the better people, and always punished the bad ones? While I believe it's a general truth that "honesty is the best policy", and some sort of natural law favors those who live healthy lifestyles, and treat others honorably, and serve their families or customers ... but if in every single case, in very predictable fashion, good deeds were met with increased prosperity, and neglectful behavior was immediately punished.... would people then become virtuous -- or would they simply be thus manipulated into conformity to a standard, without any real virtue on their part?

 

No matter how I envision the challenges of creating a beautiful world full of intelligent and happy and free and loving folks, the only way I can "honestly" say I can envision a plan working is the one that, as I read the Bible, God says he has adopted. Allow death, and then resurrect. Allow mistakes, and then educate. Allow heartache, and then heal. Allow self-agrandizement, and let them see that the result wasn't as great as they expected.

 

The Bible seems to me to say quite unequivocably that God allowed disobedience, and set up a limited-time, limited-scope experience with disobedience and evil. He seems to have allowed superhuman intelligence to accelerate the downward spiral, and he apparently avoided making it clear to all the world that he had loving children actively at work in the world. "The Lord knows them that are his", we are told -- and everyone else wonders and debates the matter, until he's ready to reveal the first generation of his children.

 

It seems increasingly clear to me that what God did was decide he would allow 6000 years to leave human self-will almost completely on its own. He worked almost silently, behind the scenes, in quiet but stately fashion, to accomplish his plans on schedule. (I could share informoation that has recently been discovered about the patterns of history which reveal a divine imprimatur in all that has been allowed to happen. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll show you what I mean).

 

Then, he'll allow 1000 years to explain things to each person, and help them learn the needed lessons without the treachery and deceit of an intelligent opponent ... it'll just be a learning opportunity between each person and the whole network of helpers that God has been preparing.

 

So I think that the promised result, as well as the wise methodology at work to get there, reveals the kind of being we are dealing with here. And there is absolutely no penalty upon you or anyone else for taking a "wait and see" attitude. The mainstream Christian notion that you have to respond, Cerise, right now, before you take a chance of getting erased by some drunk driver tonight on the way home from work ... well, it ought to be laughable, but really it's just downright sick.

 

And it ain't in the Bible, either. Not if those who study it and pay attention to it carefully read what it says. Biblical intelligence is growing by leaps and bounds, and I'm happy to say that more and more people are starting to finally wipe the dust of the dark ages off their glasses when they read the Bible.

 

I think all things can be rectified. I think there's a very good explanation for pain.