Where Do Religions Come From

[DayLight]

I just wanted to share some of my ideas.

 

 

I am an ex Christian. But I believe that there is a God. Or at least somebody who is engaged in our lives, watching, observing, guiding. I believe that this God is far more complicated (or different) than what we are used to (in human existence). And I believe that He talks to us. But when He sends us messages, they have to go through our brain and that's where the problem lies. Our brain does not correctly transmit the message. Our brain is not capable of understanding what exactly He is saying. And so our brain develops its own picture of what was said. Then this person tells others. Then the others add a whole bunch of their own conclusions and thoughts and ideas, and thus a religion is born.

 

 

Once a person receives a message from God, he claims that he has THE truth. When in fact it's the truth filtered through that person's brain. So it's just a glimpse of the truth. And since there is LOTS And LOTS of the truth to know, but this person knows only 1% of it, the religion which develops from it has only 1% of the truth. And as different people receive different messages, their supposedly "WHOLE TRUTHs" are different from each other. Once they know the 1% of the truth, they claim that this is ALL the truth. They claim they know the beginning, the end, and the in-between. When in fact they are only holding one small piece of the truth.

 

 

For myself, I have decided that all religions are: rumors about God (or a Being we perceive as God or gods). They are just rumors. These heard this, and those heard that, and these think this and those think that.... Some say there is only one God, some say there is three, some say there are many. Some say the gods are males and females....

 

People do find God through religions because rumors about Him get them interested in Him and get them to come close. Except that they don't have a correct view of Him. For example, Christians think they are talking to Jesus, Muslims think that it's Allah that the communications come from. Chrisha followers think it's God Vishnu....and so on.... Buddists believe in inner self stuff.

 

And as far as I can tell, there are tiny bits and pieces of some sort of truth in all of these (to some degree). People in their own religions have contradictory ideas of what they believe and don't understand why that is. For example, Christians have been arguing for centuries whether one is saved by free will, or whether God chooses people to save, or whether one can lose one's salvation or not. And why do they argue? Well, turns out that BOTH contradictory ideas seem to be covered in the Bible. So that one group takes one set of verses and brings out their theory. And the other group takes their own set of verses and brings their own.

 

I personally believe that the truth is somewhere in between, some kind of a mix of these ideas.

 

 

Some Indians (I think) believe in God the Brahman. And they teach (some of them) that we are trying to connect with Brahman outside of us. But then they go and say that we are trying to connect with Brahman inside of us. Well, which is it?

 

 

I think it's partially both. And that's why it's confusing. But the truth is complicated and cannot be expressed in simple story or simple terms.

 

 

If people came together and "compared notes", maybe they would have a better picture of reality. But as it is, it's just scattered bits and pieces everywhere.

 

 

Once a religion is born (a tiny bit of truth plus a bunch of man's ideas added to it), it branches out into yet more different variations. And it's doing it because it's simply human nature to have opinions on stuff. And people simply cannot come to the same conclusion. And perhaps this is because people live under a certain law, a certain principle that governs all life on earth. And so I wanted to mention those principles below. To me, they explain why there is so much variety as far as religions are concerned.

 

MUTATION:

 

DNA studies show that mutation occurs in humans as a normal part of life. In other words, it keep happening, like a clock. (But I think it happens at the moment of birth, not during a person’s life). I thought that mutation was an exception, a freak of nature. But as it turns out, It’s NORMAL for life. It’s how things change, become different. It’s how variety is increasing (besides what is done by the combining principle). The mutations were discovered in plants as well. It is my assumption (without further proof) that deformed children (physically and psychologically) are born because of the mutation principle. It is my assumption that also gifted people are born because of it. Mutation effects could be positive or negative.

 

So for discoveries to occur, there has to occur a mutation, which would produce a really exceptionally smart person. And that person will be able to some day accidentally discover something (through combining of ideas and thoughts). And even the smart person might have to wait a while until time and chance take its course. But at least the smart person will have the capacity/ability to handle the task of processing the perfect combining of thoughts/ideas which would bring about a great discovery.

 

We use those principles manually as well. We breed different types of dogs and food by combining different varieties. It’s like we learned from life itsef, about how it works, and now we can imitate its principles and make things work.

 

COMBINING: In its simplest form, the combining principle takes a few numbers and keeps putting them together in different ways. Kind of like kaleidoscope puts together the different bids in different order to create a different picture. Except, in this case, sometimes what you get is nonsense. And sometimes, there comes out some useful combination.

 

Combining is not necessarily an intelligent process. Random combining produces nonsense most of the time. I have realized that dreams are a product of a combining principle at work. In dreams, various images, thoughts and ideas are put together in various ways to form some sort of a picture. Sometimes this picture it too bizzare and doesn’t make any sense. And sometimes there are stories in dreams…

 

I had this one dream which opened my eyes more as far as the combining principle is concerned. Before going to sleep, I saw two movies right before going to sleep. And so the story of my dream consisted of these two movies. There was a bad guy from one movie, and there was a boss and wife (work related) from another movie. So the combination principle combined these and I saw that the boss was the bad guy and he was with his wife. Then there was a musician guy in one movie. And then there was some boyfriend who was supposed to impress the boss in another movie. And so in my dream I saw this boy who was a musician who was trying to impress the boss….

 

But the combining principle can be used by people in some intelligent way to produce results. The computer program which guesses a password, by taking all kinds of letters and numbers and puts them into all kinds of combinations to guess a password.

 

The ant colony finds the path by the combining principle. They search for different paths (they go here, and nothing, they go there, and nothing, they go here and finally they find something. When they find the right combination, they leave a scent and others follow. So the ant colony appears smart, but they found the way by random chance (or by searching and searching until they stumbled across the right way).

 

The fact that the cooks and chefs are able to come up with different foods, is due to the fact that our life is governed by the “combining principle”. New salads are created by combining certain vegetables and fruits in different proportions and varieties. The more combinations of them, the more salads people come up with. Some cooks somehow know which ingredients would go together to combine in a tasty salad. But other people do it randomly: and sometimes the salad tastes awful, and sometimes it tastes good. So they change the ingredients. And whenever some cook lands on a perfect combination, it’s considered the best recipe. In other words, they have found the best combination.

 

Choosing a mate is governed by this same principle. People date a lot. Try different combinations. Some of them are pretty bad. And some are pretty good. And whenever they find the right combination, they merge. (Marry).

 

Combination doesn’t bring only positive results. It also brings negative. Combination goes up and down. Things combine into good things and bad things. It’s a matter of trying. And the more time passes, the more chance to run into something good. People have been divorced and said: third time is a charm. They went through two previous combinations which did not work out. But the third one did work out.

 

Scientific discoveries are based on a combination principle (partly). Smart people sometimes by random chance stumble across a discovery (when something happens to trigger something). Or their thoughts randomly form a perfect combination and an idea is born. Or they are like a computer trying to guess a password, would go through many different combinations of thoughts until finally they would come up with an idea that works. Which, if it’s a significant one, triggers many other discoveries. I wanted to add here that sometimes certain things cannot be accomplished until a certain discovery is made which enables us to do it. For example, there are some things yet to discover before we can fly in space. For now, all we can do is dream about it and make tiny steps towards the goal, working with the discoveries that we do have. But some day, we might stumble across one that would make it possible in practical terms.

 

Human code of conduct, fashion, philosophy, ideas, beliefs – it all changes overtime being subject to the combining principle.

 

So the combining principle is the one that takes objects and combines them in different number of ways. The mutation principle changes the object itself.

 

So if you combine the two: the making of new objects by mutation and the combinations of different objects in different order and different ways – these are responsible for variety. These are the two principles which guide all life.

 

Religion is a part of life on earth. And like everything else, it is governed and is subject to the principles of mutations and combining. The mutation would be – a new idea. Combining would be – combining of new and old ideas.

 

So this is the reason why there are so many denominations. And this is the reason why religions have similarities. And this is the reason why they also have differences. And if you note, some religions who come from the same geographical location, have more common with each other, then the ones which come from a totally different location. The combining principle takes old ideas and beliefs of the people and adds a few new elements, and the religion is born (or a denomination.)

 

So people are born and they live and are raised in certain types of beliefs. Those beliefs become a part of them. Then somebody discovers something new (by some way) and brings this idea to the people. His followers, while still believing what they used to believe, now also believe this new idea. And sometimes, some leave some of the old ideas behind, but keep some of them with them.

 

And this happens just because. Just because behind the scenes there are these two principles which produce life. Without mutation, the variety would stop being produced because there are only a limited number of ways in which the objects could be combined. And without combining, objects would be just by themselves, always the same, always in the same order. There couldn’t be discoveries then. Imagine the time when there was just one object. Even the combining principle couldn’t help it until a mutation has occurred and produced another object. But you can’t very well keep combining two objects in many ways. Another mutation needs to occur. And so on…

 

Each person is unique because new people are made through the combining and mutation principle. Mutation occurs in genes and it produces something different in a newly born person. Also the combining of his parents’ genes in him (inherited traits) plays a role in producing a person who is different from their parents, and yet has similarities.

 

Religions are subject to mutation and combining principles just like everything else in life. And therefore, you can be sure that the beliefs which Paul had are different from the beliefs which current Christians have.

 

For example, Paul was a Jew. He believed some of the things the Jewish people believed. Paul did NOT believe in eternal hell. In fact, Paul believed in death. He said that sin’s punishment is death. But now Christians believe in hell. Why? Because those Christians were born and raised among greek mythology which believed in hell. So they believed in it too. And when Paul brought some new idea to their beliefs, some of them still believed in hell. Remember, not everybody thought that Paul was an authority and a unquestionable leader. Many doubted him and questioned him. Many might have accepted his ideas without actually giving up their own. And when Paul died, and these people were in charge in their own circles, they spread their own tint of religion. And as time went, different people have yet different ideas, which were added to the mix. For example, the catholic church has decided that they need to do rituals (even though Paul preached against obeying the law). The rituals could have come from them going back to the law. OR they could have simply come from pagan religions where the people were raised. And this is most likely. There are holidays in our Christianity which came from pagan religions. The worship of Virgin Mary is often seen as a parallel of a worship of pagans of some feminine deity. The idea of demons and satan and other evil beings (male and female) came from pagan religions of that day. And perhaps that's why they got mixed into Christianity as well.

 

 

I believe that Christians think that pagans simply worship all kinds of gods with all kinds of idols and all kinds of silly rituals. But it’s not quite true. Some of the pagan religions also have a Savior, A Son of God (or rather a manifestation of the 2^nd person of Godhead) and dying for sins. They have a Savior who does miracles like Jesus did. And who teaches good things like Jesus did. In some, they believe in a sweet communion with God (like some of the Christians believe.)

 

And another interesting thing to note is that some statements, stories and books from the old testament are found in pagan religions which came before old testament. So that means the people who later wrote the old testament have at first believed like those pagans around them, and brought the old stuff with them into the new way.

 

Christians argue that the Bible is the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and the 100% inspired Word of God. And they base that claim partially on the fact that the old testament contains modern scientific discoveries which could have been only God inspired. But a careful analysis shows that it does NOT contain up-to-date scientific facts. The old testament’s facts about life were the same as what the ancient people of their time believed. For example, in Jer 40:22 it talks about a flat (circle) earth with a dome like sky. This is the same thing that pagans believed then. And ask yourself: if you lived during that time and there were no scientific discoveries and you are walking on a flat earth and you see that the sky is raised above you, wouldn’t you conclude the same thing? Yes. People draw their conclusions on their observations. And they also observed the sun going up and down. So instead of saying that the earth is going around the sun, they said that the sun is the one running back and forth- strictly based on their observation. And in Genesis it says that God has hanged the stars on the sky, but is it so? Our sky is not full of stars. Our sky is just an athmosphere through which we can see other suns (stars) and so people, not knowing that, said that the stars are hanging on our sky. Which is a reasonable assumption if you don’t know any better.

 

When I was a Christian, I always wondered: why the old testament and the new testament describe God so differently? In the Old Testament, He is not very loving. But in the New Testament, He is pretty loving. I believed in the loving God and so the old testament was always a puzzle to me. Why does the old testament say that God will be vengeaful against his enemies and that he will crash them all, while the new testament said that God loves and forgives his enemies and that we should do likewise? These seem to be contradictory ideas. Christians say that it's because God has two sides. (a holy side and a loving side). But in truth, CAN a person have two sides? Can He be considered a loving person if on the other side he is cruel? I don't think so. Mafia leaders can be loving to their family and cruel to the rest of the people and they are considered bad (not bad and good). So in Christianity there are contradictory ideas about God.

 

 

From observation, it seems that God talks to people in different religions IN ACCORDANCE with their religion. It’s because He needs to reach them. And if He starts to say something that contradicts their beliefs, they won’t believe Him. So He has to adapt His dreams, His messages, His conversations to that person’s specific religion's view of Him.

 

That's how God has taught me. (I am not sure whether I should call Him GOD though. I am not sure if this is the same idea as what people assume when they say God. I would probably be better off saying: "the Somebody out there", it would be more accurate. Because this somebody is not the kind that seeks knee bowed worship of Himself as a deity. According to what I know, this Somebody seeks companionship.)

 

At first, He was teaching me about Himself in accordance with my religion. I did see that He was different than how He was described in the Bible. And yet, those differences were not major enough for me not to accept. For example, He was teaching me that He is LOVE. And that He is not cruel as described in the Old Testament. He said that He did not create hell as some people believe (and as some of the Bible verses seem to claim). Turns out God doesn't sit and judge us constantly as we are led to believe. Turns out He adores us. (Well, I am talking about those who at least try to be good. As far as the bad people, the evil ones, I think He understands about their nature. I think that He understands that they are who and what they are and they can't act otherwise and He probably thinks that they are simply a negative side-effect of creation and will need to be taken care of appropriately. But I do not believe that He hates them.) Some of the Bible verses in the old testament claim that God hates sinners. And so if people are to follow God, then they will hate sinners too and become racists. And we observe that happening. It's easy for people to be racist naturally. We have to teach each other to not do that. So if you take people's negative side of racist inclinations and add religion to that, you get a deadly combination. And violence comes forth. (But of course, there are many other ways when violence comes from people, but religion is also one of them.)

 

 

[SleeplessGhost]

I am somewhat confused. The title of this thread asks where religions come from and you did a decent job of explaining where you think religions come from. I must say that the last few paragraphs make it seem like you still believe in the Christian god and that you seem to think everyone else does too, they just aren't interpreting Gods message correctly. I understand the need to explain other religions from a monotheistic standpoint, but the bible often admits the existence of other gods. Are you still christian?

 

I personally believe that religions came from people trying to explain things they do not understand, a point you touched on. I think people then made specific entities that they could relate to, made stories, and eventually worshiped these beings to gain various favors. I must say, though, that I have never heard "the voice of god". Or if I have I simply related it to my own thought processes, such as praying for the answer to a question I knew the answer too all along.

[florduh]

But I believe that there is a God.

Why?

[Deva]

I am not sure how to address this post. I was going to start out by trying to explain Hinduism and Buddhism but I realize this would lead us far afield.

 

The whole thing is written in a sort of third person detached sort of way which I find disconcerting. I don't mean to be critical but, Daylight, can we get the condensed version? What is your question for us or what sort of feedback do you want?

[DayLight]

I am somewhat confused. The title of this thread asks where religions come from and you did a decent job of explaining where you think religions come from. I must say that the last few paragraphs make it seem like you still believe in the Christian god and that you seem to think everyone else does too, they just aren't interpreting Gods message correctly. I understand the need to explain other religions from a monotheistic standpoint, but the bible often admits the existence of other gods. Are you still christian?

 

I personally believe that religions came from people trying to explain things they do not understand, a point you touched on. I think people then made specific entities that they could relate to, made stories, and eventually worshiped these beings to gain various favors. I must say, though, that I have never heard "the voice of god". Or if I have I simply related it to my own thought processes, such as praying for the answer to a question I knew the answer too all along.

 

 

It's possible that my words and ideas were filtered through my Christian background. I am an ex-Christian however. And I do not believe in the same idea of God as Christians do.

 

I believe that God is plural. (& more than three) His plurality is complicated and I am not sure I understand it myself yet. So I didn't mention that point.

 

I think that God is unified (in some sense) and plural in an other sense. And I think that people heard of that somewhere, but couldn't understand it. So some decided to believe in ONE God, and others (like Hindus) decided to believe in many gods. While the actual truth is somewhere in between. But it's too hard to understand. When God talks, I often hear things like: this is true and yet it's not true. Like: "we are a part of this, and yet we are not"

 

Our ideas and words and existence is too primitive to understand God's point of view. So the messages come through really jambled.

 

It would be like if we were trying to explain to a two-dimensional cartoon character about our existence in three dimensions.

[DayLight]

But I believe that there is a God.

Why?

 

 

Ever since I was aware of myself, I believed that there was a God. Nothing happened in my life to prevent that belief.

 

When I made a decision (from a Christian point of view) to draw really close to God and to give him my all, He started talking to me. So that only reinforced my belief in his existence. It was Him that took me away from Christianity. I chose to believe what He told me over what people have taught me.

 

I used to scoff at science (like many Christians do) and I used to believe folk stories over scientific facts, but God has showed me the foolishness of that. It was Him who let me see how religions are born. And therefore, I am able to see that Christianity is simply one of many religions: man made ideas about God.

 

So I came to the conclusion that religions are: rumors about God. In other words, somewhere, somehow, people had contact with God (like I do). But the messages were corrupted by our religious filters, preconceived ideas and simple non-understanding of higher forms of existence. And so God is pictured differently in different religions.

 

 

Who is God anyways? It's a Being(beings) who are somehow involved in existence of our earth and who are involved in our lives. He/they are the Big Brother perhaps, who is responsible for taking care of things, universes, and such. He(they) are somehow responsible for existence of lifeforms (including our earth). I believe in their/His existence. I can't help it.

 

He talks to me. He answers my questions. (And don't ask me how, I just know for sure that it's Him). But I know somebody, who having heard the same things, and who does not have any idea how to explain what happen, still can't believe in Him.

 

So I think that some people are born with an ability to believe and others are not. It's yet another type of "variety" of lifeforms on earth.

[florduh]

Why would you think these things?

[DayLight]

I am not sure how to address this post. I was going to start out by trying to explain Hinduism and Buddhism but I realize this would lead us far afield.

 

The whole thing is written in a sort of third person detached sort of way which I find disconcerting. I don't mean to be critical but, Daylight, can we get the condensed version? What is your question for us or what sort of feedback do you want?

 

Mostly, I write because I just like to share. It's hard for me to know things and not to tell anybody. (And sometimes something might help somebody see something too). I was just sharing my current ideas about life and spiritual things.

 

Feedback is appreciated. And I guess it would be just something about whether what I said makes sense or doesn't, and why.

[Guest Valk0010]

If you believe there is a god, then, there is a guy you might find interesting, talking about like messages and stuff.

 

His name is meher baba. Here is a snippet from the wiki bio of him, with the info I am talking about.

 

Perfect Masters and the Avatar

 

Meher Baba says that at all times on Earth there are fifty-six incarnate God-realized souls, and that of these souls there are always five who constitute the five Perfect Masters of their era.[111] When one of the five perfect masters dies, Baba says, another God-realized soul among the fifty-six immediately replaces him or her by taking up that office.[112]

 

The Avatar, according to Meher Baba, is a special Perfect Master, the first soul to achieve God-realization. This soul, the original Perfect Master, or the "Ancient One", never ceases to incarnate. Baba says that this particular soul personifies the state of God which in Hinduism is named Vishnu and in Sufism is named Parvardigar, i.e. the sustainer or preserver state of God. According to Meher Baba the Avatar appears on Earth every 700–1400 years, and is 'brought down' into human form by the five perfect masters of the time to aid in the process of moving creation in its never ending journey toward Godhood. Baba said that in other ages this role was fulfilled by Zoroaster, Rama, Krishna, Gautama Buddha, Jesus, and lastly by Muhammad.[113]

 

Meher Baba describes the Avatar as "a gauge against which man can measure what he is and what he may become. He trues the standard of human values by interpreting them in terms of divinely human life."[114]

 

Most of Meher Baba's followers accept his claim of avatarhood[99] and he is said to be "revered by millions around the world as the Avatar of the age and a God realized being."[88]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meher_Baba

[DayLight]

Why would you think these things?

 

 

I think it was because I was brought up to believe in God. And for some reason I always admired Him. I did not see Him as bad. I guess I ignored all the bad stuff written about him or was in denial. And as such, I felt a kinship. I admired a Creator who created us and loved us and who was GOOD. I admire goodness. I also love science fiction and always want to know things that are beyond our life on earth. Perhaps that was a factor. I always wanted to know why we are here and what our future is...

 

So I keep thinking about these things.

 

I also wanted to know why people believe the way they do. If there is one truth, why nobody has it? If there is one God who tells everybody the truth, why different people have "different truth"...

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

I like the way you think.

 

But with your beliefs in mind, how do you explain the existence of evil? How do you explain how, if God is good, and personal enough to interfere in certain situations, and even talk to you, how could he let the innocent suffer?

 

Also....

 

If there is one God who tells everybody the truth, why different people have "different truth"...

 

What about your version of God, and your version of the truth? God talks to you, right? Does he tell you and nobody else? What's the deal?

[Guest I Love Dog]

Why would you think these things?

 

 

I think it was because I was brought up to believe in God. And for some reason I always admired Him. I did not see Him as bad. I guess I ignored all the bad stuff written about him or was in denial. And as such, I felt a kinship. I admired a Creator who created us and loved us and who was GOOD. I admire goodness. I also love science fiction and always want to know things that are beyond our life on earth. Perhaps that was a factor. I always wanted to know why we are here and what our future is...

 

So I keep thinking about these things.

 

I also wanted to know why people believe the way they do. If there is one truth, why nobody has it? If there is one God who tells everybody the truth, why different people have "different truth"...

 

I really can't see that you believe in a god because you were brought up to believe in a god! I was brought up to believe in Santa Claus and Easter Bunny and the Christian god. I found it just as easy to debunk a belief in a god as it was to debunk Santa and the Easter Bunny. There is at least, more evidence of Santa, because he was based on a real person.

 

I suggest that you aren't thinking deeply enough about the existence of a god, you need to research what evidence there is for an invisible "creator", who loves us and cares about us.

 

There's no "reason" why we are here. we are here because the conditions on the planet were right for living organisms to form. That is what happened and ALL life forms on the planet began with that simple 1-cell of life and evolved from there. All life forms have related DNA.

 

If humans have a "living" god, then all life forms have one and that is just too silly for words. Do trees, plants, insects, animals, fish go to hell and burn forever because they don't worship a god? No, of course not! Do they need "saving" from their sins? No of course not! Humans are taught that they are "special", but of course, they are not. They are just another life form on this planet, they just have the ability to invent gods, where other life forms don't.

 

Only 30% of humans on this planet believe in the invented Yahweh, which means 70% don't. There are many gods and many beliefs. all religions claim to know the "truth". They can't all be right, so I will assume that they are all wrong. Science comes the closest to knowing "the truth", but even then, scientists don't claim to be infallible and know everything, they are intelligent and don't make ridiculous claims like religions who teach "the truth" when they have absolutely no proof or even evidence for what they teach.

 

http://www.godisimaginary.com

 

http://www.godchecker.com

 

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

 

Think deeper, research more. If the Romans hadn't taken the idea of Christianity and developed it into a means of enforcing power and control and creating wealth and then forced it on people under pain of death then it would have drifted by the wayside and died a natural death like most other religions did.

[DayLight]

I like the way you think.

 

But with your beliefs in mind, how do you explain the existence of evil? How do you explain how, if God is good, and personal enough to interfere in certain situations, and even talk to you, how could he let the innocent suffer?

 

Also....

 

If there is one God who tells everybody the truth, why different people have "different truth"...

 

What about your version of God, and your version of the truth? God talks to you, right? Does he tell you and nobody else? What's the deal?

 

 

Talking to God - some people have the ability to hear messages from the spirit world. It's the ability they were born with. (Like mediums or those who talk to angels and stuff like that.) So God would tell them something, and they would immediately hear it. So sometimes these people are chosen by God to be used as communicators just because they have this ability. They are like a radio through which He can give messages. Others don't have this ability. These particular people will have to try very hard to hear from God. God can find ways of communication, but it won't be easy. It will require diligence and effort on people's part. God is only too happy to talk to people. The problem is: they don't care enough to make an effort.

 

It's like if you really loved somebody, you would marry them even if you have much obstacles in your way. You would invest your time and efforts to overcome the obstacles. But if you don't love as much, you wouldn't want to waste your efforts on such a difficult journey. So if you have a gift of hearing from the other world, all you have to do is make time and ask God to start talking to you and sit for while until He starts doing that. Sometimes there are "technical difficulties", so be patient... But, on the other hand, if you don't have the gift of being able to hear, you might not hear. You might have to invest much more effort into finding your way of communicating with God. You might have to search and search until you connect with Him in other ways. God speaks to us often, but we are blissfully unaware.

 

I think that God tells people things according to what they want/need to hear. So the things He would tell me would be of a different sort than He would tell somebody else. This is why it's so important to gather everybody's messages together to see a more clear picture. As it is, I have only a tiny piece of the puzzle....and I can't see the picture either.... I draw one for myself though. But that's the only way I can do it. And that's the only way anybody can do it. And that's why we have so many views of God. We can't help it.

 

So why you have to believe me then? Well, you don't have to. But it's wise to collect different bits and pieces of the puzzle (different messages from different people) if one wants to see the picture someday. (Of course there would be a big problem: people often add their own thinking to what God told them and sometimes the messages come out contradictory). But who said that life was easy? It's the only thing we have to work with. We can only make the best of what we have. My version of God is also filtered through my own understanding of things. I do not think that I draw an accurate picture. But we do the best we can....

 

ABOUT EVIL:

 

I was told that evil always existed. Like the opposites exist. Like matter and anti-matter exist. Like light and darkness. I like this one song which has these words: it's nobody's fault, it's just that tears and love, light and darkness, ashes and fire walk together. Why opposites exist? They just do. Just like God just exists...

 

The possibility of evil exists. But manifestation of evil is another issue. In some lifeforms (because of the way they are programmed) evil would manifest itself more than in others. So in humans evil is manifested a lot and in God maybe a little (if any, I am not sure.) But it depends on internal programming.

 

If you create a lifeform to have needs and desires and the ability to choose - this is where the possibility of choosing evil exists. If the programming goes array and becomes unproportional: the human wants to choose to please self 99% and to please others only 1%, this it is when most evil occurs. God said that selfishness is the highest form of evil. (I see from observation that people do evil when they strive to please self at the expense of another.) God is love. Love chooses to serve others. So this would make God good. People are generally selfish. So the scales are tipped to the side of evil.

 

Genes, circumstances, experiences - all make you who you are. And because of this method of producing humans, good and bad humans are produced. It's like if the Creator wanted to find a special combination (produce a certain type of a person), but didn't know which combination of genes, circumstances and experiences would make what He is looking for, He would create a process which would keep making different humans. It's the same principle that is used in programs guessing a password: the computer is going through different combinations and finally comes across the right one and the password is guessed. So through this method, good combinations and bad combinations are produced. Some people are born who love stuff that others consider disgusting and sick. It's because of the combination. It was a bad combination.

 

Some people are born "sick" (bad). And that's why I don't personally believe that everybody has a free will to choose bad and good. Because some will choose bad just became they were produced bad. And that is why I believe that God is NOT mad at bad people. It's like if you had a favorite puppy and then it got a mad dog decease. Would you be mad at the puppy? Or just so upset that it was infected. I believe that God understands that people can't help themselves (to some degree). They will act as their "combination" dictates.

 

So it's our programming (the method of how we come to be) which makes so much evil manifest. I guess in order to produce us (the way we are) it had to be this way... But God is made of different stuff and so He is different from us.

[DayLight]

I like the way you think.

 

How do you explain how, if God is good, and personal enough to interfere in certain situations, and even talk to you, how could he let the innocent suffer?

 

 

All I know at this point is that it has to be this way. But He suffers with us. He feels everything we feel because He is linked to us. (That's what He told me anyways) That's how He knows all our thoughts. That's why He doesn't judge us as people do. He feels your disappointments and your hurts. He hurts for you. He knows why you do the things you do. He knows why you act bad to certain people because He knows how they hurt you...and stuff like that..

[florduh]

Talking to God - some people have the ability to hear messages from the spirit world. It's the ability they were born with. (Like mediums or those who talk to angels and stuff like that.)

Is there any evidence that supports those claims?

[DayLight]

Why would you think these things?

 

 

I think it was because I was brought up to believe in God.

 

I really can't see that you believe in a god because you were brought up to believe in a god! I was brought up to believe in Santa Claus and Easter Bunny and the Christian god. I found it just as easy to debunk a belief in a god as it was to debunk Santa and the Easter Bunny. There is at least, more evidence of Santa, because he was based on a real person.

 

 

Think deeper, research more. If the Romans hadn't taken the idea of Christianity and developed it into a means of enforcing power and control and creating wealth and then forced it on people under pain of death then it would have drifted by the wayside and died a natural death like most other religions did.

 

I agree with you on some points: people are wrong when they claim to know the truth, and nothing but the truth. Religions are controlling and are bad for the society (for the most part). And scientific facts should be relied on, instead of blind religious beliefs based on nothing.

 

But it's a mystery why people believe some things and not others. I heard that belief IN PART is based on preferences. Some people believe that aliens exist even though they have never seen them. Why do they believe that? We don't believe only based on evidence...

For me, nothing happened to make me not believe in existence of God. In fact (and that's probably a factor), I only have proof of His existence. Especially Him talking to me now. And Him doing miraculous events right in answers to prayers. There are so many examples of that. Some people see them as coincidences. But I can't. To me it makes more sense to see the pattern, rather than random events (even though they look so much like a pattern). There are so many people out there claiming to have supernatural experiences.... How can one ignore all that? (I mean I know that one can, but I cannot)

[DayLight]

Talking to God - some people have the ability to hear messages from the spirit world. It's the ability they were born with. (Like mediums or those who talk to angels and stuff like that.)

Is there any evidence that supports those claims?

 

The evidence that I consider believable is "numerous people's accounts of their personal experiences and my observations added to that."

[flockoff]

You say that some people are born with an "ability" to believe and some aren't. i'm a Christian-turned-atheist and I've come to believe this too for now, at least until my studies convince me otherwise. As I see it, I had the genetic tools for belief in a god, but it wasn't dominant enough to last.

 

The question is, do you think the existance of these "abilies" has to entail that the phenomena experienced is grounded in reality?

 

Now it seems what you're saying is that numerous people of different cultures, areas, etc. can believe in gods without indoctrination, and since the stimuli comes directly to them, it proves there must be something out there. How do you know that whatever that is is external, sentient, et. al? How do you know that the common threads aren't simply coming from being of the same species and living on the same planet? The nature we all live in and the tools we have to receive and interpret it are very similar yet complex. The god concept is pretty basic in comparison.

 

Before we understood what causes fire, where the wind comes from, what the stars were, we used gods to explain them. Different people from different areas had different ideas of what god was causing volcanes to erupt and why, but they all believed a god was involved. Does that substantiate that it was true? We know now from modern geology what causes volcanoes. The percentage of those who still believe God's hand is directly involved has greatly decreased, and those that do are typically reduced to looking at the scientific facts and saying they're true, but it was just the means God used. The trouble is you had very specific ideas that can no longer be used. We objectively know that there is no correlation between sexual promiscuity and volcanic eruptions. But some people continue to believe so anyway, and with no less zeal than those with unfalsified beliefs.

 

You say you've believed in God ever since you were "aware of yourself." What

[flockoff]

I don't know how the heck that got posted as I was typing it but I can't delete it and I'm not finished, hang on ...

[flockoff]

You say you've believed in God ever since you were "aware of yourself." What is your concept of being aware of oneself and when did it occur? If by this you mean in infancy when you were getting your bearings together and understood that you were a being living in an exterior world, etc., I find this to be unreliable. How could you possibly remember what you were thinking at that time? Or that you were thinking much about anything?

 

Then you sort of contradict yourself by saying you were "brought up to believe in God." Granted, you were answering a question about more specific beliefs about God, but how do you know this idea of always having believed in God is a figment of your imagination?

 

I just skimmed over most of this thread, but do I take it correctly that you've never seriously questioned if there was a god in the first place? Are you afraid to do this?

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

I like the way you think.

 

How do you explain how, if God is good, and personal enough to interfere in certain situations, and even talk to you, how could he let the innocent suffer?

 

 

All I know at this point is that it has to be this way. But He suffers with us. He feels everything we feel because He is linked to us. (That's what He told me anyways) That's how He knows all our thoughts. That's why He doesn't judge us as people do. He feels your disappointments and your hurts. He hurts for you. He knows why you do the things you do. He knows why you act bad to certain people because He knows how they hurt you...and stuff like that..

 

I doubt it. If he feels everything we feel, knows us better than we know ourselves, suffers with us and hurts for us.... and he still doesn't intervene.... well, he's an asshole.

 

Look at this kid.

 

 

Does God feel his pain? Does God feel everything that this kid feels? Does he? If so.... WHY THE FUCK DOESN'T HE DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT? He's God, right? Can't be too hard to make sure people get something to eat.

[Vixentrox]

Edited...I forgot what section of the forum this was in.

[DayLight]

You say that some people are born with an "ability" to believe and some aren't. i'm a Christian-turned-atheist and I've come to believe this too for now, at least until my studies convince me otherwise. As I see it, I had the genetic tools for belief in a god, but it wasn't dominant enough to last.

 

The question is, do you think the existance of these "abilies" has to entail that the phenomena experienced is grounded in reality?

 

Now it seems what you're saying is that numerous people of different cultures, areas, etc. can believe in gods without indoctrination, and since the stimuli comes directly to them, it proves there must be something out there. How do you know that whatever that is is external, sentient, et. al? How do you know that the common threads aren't simply coming from being of the same species and living on the same planet? The nature we all live in and the tools we have to receive and interpret it are very similar yet complex. The god concept is pretty basic in comparison.

 

Before we understood what causes fire, where the wind comes from, what the stars were, we used gods to explain them. Different people from different areas had different ideas of what god was causing volcanes to erupt and why, but they all believed a god was involved. Does that substantiate that it was true? We know now from modern geology what causes volcanoes. The percentage of those who still believe God's hand is directly involved has greatly decreased, and those that do are typically reduced to looking at the scientific facts and saying they're true, but it was just the means God used. The trouble is you had very specific ideas that can no longer be used. We objectively know that there is no correlation between sexual promiscuity and volcanic eruptions. But some people continue to believe so anyway, and with no less zeal than those with unfalsified beliefs.

 

You say you've believed in God ever since you were "aware of yourself." What

[DayLight]

Flockoff,

 

As you said, you have gotten an “unbelieving” gene come up. And my “believing” gene is very much active still. So we probably will disagree. But I like to express things anyways.

 

If many people are saying that someone is talking to them, I usually believe that there is something to it. They couldn't all be lying. I guess you are saying that it could be something like a hallusinations or a brain disorder or something (internal) that enables them to hear “someone” talk? But how can there be a pattern if it's just random health problems? People believe in coincidences. But what if there are too many and they emerge into a pattern of question and answer, asking and a response... Should we still claim it's just random coincidences? Shouldn't we realize that something unusual is going on?

 

Because of my believing gene, I AM SO SURE that someone is talking to me. Especially because of the context. I find it impossible to believe that just some internal health thing would cause such a useful and very timely, encouraging, edifying, and purposeful context. The complexity of context and the timeliness of responses to my questions and my other issues is proof to me that it's not just a person's brain's “cooking something up”.

 

Just because some things are fakes, or lies, or can be explained, it doesn't mean that it's true in all cases. Just because some brain disorder can make people hear voices and such, doesn't mean that in my case it's true (or something like that.). I suppose I would have to hear at least a few people with those problems (internal) telling me how their “unhealthy brain” has helped them, has resolved issues for them, has encouraged them exactly when they needed it, has answered some of their questions to which they didn't have answers before. If I heard some of these stories, and that it ended up just being people's brain disorder, then I might start doubting (maybe).

 

Common ideas definitely come about (as you said) because of people's sharing with each other. But I don't think this affects the act itself. Just because I heard that many were talking to God, doesn't mean that I don't.... Or that they are not actually doing it, just because many are doing it...

 

Yes people ascribe to God what He does not do. That doesn't mean that He doesn't do anything at all. Yes some claims are false. But some are still true. So ok, God did not cause the volcano to erupt. But He did help to guide me to a certain person. Or He did not cause you to get fired in this case. But it's possible (if necessary) He may cause you to get fired in another circumstance. In other words, just because He was not involved in this instance, doesn't mean that He is NEVER involved in such instances (or in particular ones.)

[DayLight]

I like the way you think.

 

How do you explain how, if God is good, and personal enough to interfere in certain situations, and even talk to you, how could he let the innocent suffer?

 

 

All I know at this point is that it has to be this way. But He suffers with us. He feels everything we feel because He is linked to us. (That's what He told me anyways) That's how He knows all our thoughts. That's why He doesn't judge us as people do. He feels your disappointments and your hurts. He hurts for you. He knows why you do the things you do. He knows why you act bad to certain people because He knows how they hurt you...and stuff like that..

 

I doubt it. If he feels everything we feel, knows us better than we know ourselves, suffers with us and hurts for us.... and he still doesn't intervene.... well, he's an asshole.

 

Look at this kid.

 

 

Does God feel his pain? Does God feel everything that this kid feels? Does he? If so.... WHY THE FUCK DOESN'T HE DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT? He's God, right? Can't be too hard to make sure people get something to eat.

 

It's a fair question. But the thing is we really DON'T know what God can or cannot do. And I am sure He feels the pain. And I am sure he feels it much more than any of us would. And I am sure that He has a good reason why He cannot help us yet. I would like to note that it is OUR actions that cause all the pain. That it's OUR responsibility to take care of the planet instead of waiting for somebody to magically make it all better.

 

It's so easy to blame somebody else. And it's easy to have someone come and just fix the problem (SO THAT WE WON'T HAVE TO INVEST OUR OWN TIME IN DOING IT). But the process is not easy. And there is no magic wand (I am sure).

 

I've been faced with this problem too. I've seen a homeless person and felt compassion and wanted SOMEBODY to hep him. But WHO? I wasn't willing to take him into my home and take care of him. But this is what would be required of us to fix our suffering. And who would be willing to do it?

 

How can I expect SOMEBODY to help when I myself am not willing to sacrifice my own comfort? We all (well, most) hang our head and say: yes, I guess we'll just live with the problem. It will cost us too much to try to fix it.

 

 

Technically, people should act like adults, stop bickering with each other and take care of the planet. But instead, we have a whole bunch of selfish children running around, hoarding their toys and expecting a mommy to come home and fix their mess.