Jesus Myth??

[Guest Thegoodbook]

Somone from here wrote this and sent it to me.

 

Did Robin Hood exist? Possibly, there was a person whose exploits were exaggerated over time until the legendary character known as Robin Hood emerged in English folklore, but few people would claim that the Robin Hood in these legends was an actual historical figure who possessed incredible archery skills and went about rescuing Maid Marian and robbing the rich to give to the poor. At best, then, Robin Hood was a quasi-historical person who became the legendary hero of Sherwood Forest through exaggeration and embellishment of his real life accomplishments.

 

The same is probably true of William Tell, King Arthur, and other famous legendary characters. Through exaggeration and embellishment over time, the lives of exceptional leaders were transformed into the legendary figures we read about in folkloric literature. In fairly recent times, we have seen the same process at work in our own country. Wyatt Earp, Wild Bill Hickok, Buffalo Bill, Jesse James, Billy the Kid--these were frontier marshals, heroes, and outlaws whose names are familiar to all of us, but their exploits were so exaggerated and embellished by word of mouth, by 19th-century dime novels, and then later by 20th-century movies that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to determine the real historical accomplishments of any of them. In this sense, it would be proper to say that the Wyatt Earp and Jesse James of the dime novels and movies were not real historical characters. Men by these names once lived, but they were not the men portrayed in the many fictionalized accounts of their lives. The real Wyatt Earp and Jesse James have probably been lost to us in a hopeless maze of legendary embellishments. bla bla jesus was a myth too

 

 

Four Points:

 

1. The Jesus seminary does not speak for true Christianity.

 

2. Name one Legendary figure that claims to be of Virgin Birth.

 

3. The Followings and other "Semi-Historical events" don't need to be recorded to be true. If it weren't true, the historians would have proven these events false 2000 years ago. No one did.

 

Consider the people of the time. Events were not record as they are today. At that time historical records were not held to the same standard.

 

4. Robin Hood, William Tell, and King Author all have historical bases, but none of those names appear any where in History. Jesus of Nazareth is a historical name in written history.

[LadyFeline]

[Mythra]

First of all, it's not the Jesus Seminary. It's the Jesus Seminar. And the Jesus Seminar did not come to the decisive conclusion that Jesus was a myth. It just reduced down the things that they actually believed Jesus said to about 20% of what the bible says he said.

 

Now, then, as for virgin-born: we have- Alexander the Great, Plato, Pythagoras, and Apollonius. I have some great "primary sources" if you'd like em. All born of virgins under miraculous circumstances.

[Lizard]

Jesus of Nazareth is a historical name in written history.

 

And where exactly, outside of the bible, is Jesus of Nazareth as a historical name written in history?

[crazy-tiger]

Jesus of Nazareth is a historical name in written history.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nazareth didn't exist until ~100years AFTER Jesus died...

 

Jesus of Nazareth is a fake name, and is in no way a historical name in written history.

[Mythra]

And your statement "historical records were not held to the same standard" -

explain that. We have the writings of Philo and Josephus. We also know of the writings of Justus of Tiberias. All of these historians from the early first century. None of them mention Jesus. Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The miracle worker. The man who raises the dead. The man who feeds thousands of people with a basket of food. The man who opens the eyes of the blind, who heals the lepers and the paralytics.

 

Josephus knows and talks about John the Baptist. It is apparent that John the Baptist was real. But nothing about Jesus. Except for Testimonium Flavianum, which no one accepts as anything other than an interpolation (probably by Eusebius) in the fourth century.

 

Are you telling me that John the Baptist made more of a splash than Jesus? Philo also knows nothing about Jesus. Philo does, however, talk about the Logos and a Son of God as theological concepts. Evidently there was a lot of this going around in the first century.

[Mythra]

Here is a tricky one to think about: (I love talking about this shit)..

 

In 1 Corinthians, chapter 11, Paul is talking about the Lord's Supper. He says "I have received of the Lord that which also I have given to you.. that on the night he was betrayed (really "surrendered") took bread...

 

Now then. WHY DID HE HAVE TO GET THIS AS A SPECIAL REVELATION FROM GOD?

 

There were supposedly 11 dudes walking around still who had BEEN THERE. Paul could have gotten a first hand account, and relayed that to the readers.

 

Unless of course, the Lord's Supper was a concept of something that occurred in the heavenly realms - in a world of spirits and "rulers of the age" and then got written into history later.

[Ouroboros]

Four Points:

 

1. The Jesus seminary does not speak for true Christianity.

So who does? You? Says who?

 

2. Name one Legendary figure that claims to be of Virgin Birth.

See Mythras references. And there are more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth

 

3. The Followings and other "Semi-Historical events" don't need to be recorded to be true. If it weren't true, the historians would have proven these events false 2000 years ago. No one did.

The historians do prove those events false, by being at the time there, recording the events of history, and no mentioning of Jesus or his death. The Jesus cult was described first several years after Jesus alleged death. Why didn't Josephus and Philo from Alexandria write anything about the miracles Jesus did? Or the huge congregation of people that followed him?

 

Consider the people of the time. Events were not record as they are today. At that time historical records were not held to the same standard.

Exactly. Even with our critical and cynical minds we get fooled by urban legends, how easy it must have been to fool people back then!

 

4.  Robin Hood, William Tell, and King Author all have historical bases, but none of those names appear any where in History. Jesus of Nazareth is a historical name in written history.

Those people do show up in historical documents. Where do you think the legends come from? The legends were written, and those are the documents, and yet the same happened to the Bible.

 

The Bible's account for Jesus is just hearsay documents, and not eyewitnesses. You need to read up on the history of Christianity. I made a recommendation before and I do it again: A History of Christianity, by Paul Johnson. He's a Christian, from your own people, you should trust him at least. He looks at the information and facts, and you'll see how dispersed and conflicted the early church was. He assume Jesus existed, but no documents can support it.

[Guest Guest_Scotter_*]

I seldom do this, but this time I am really impressed by Goodbook's tenacity.

 

I group 1. and 3. together

 

1. The Jesus seminary does not speak for true Christianity.

 

3. The Followings and other "Semi-Historical events" don't need to be recorded to be true. If it weren't true, the historians would have proven these events false 2000 years ago. No one did.

 

Goodbook just invented and pioneered something called 'circular defense'.

 

Jesus Seminar was a group of theologians, historians and other academics.

Ok, I take your notion that Jesus Seminar was about disproving Jesus (Mythra already explained Jesus Seminar wasn't about that), then you say Jesus Seminar does not speak for true Christianity.

 

Then you present Point 3. that historians did not prove them to be false.

 

If somehow historians managed to "disprove", then you can say historians do not represent Christianity or, true Christianity. Refer to your Point 1.

 

It's an endless loop.

 

2. Name one Legendary figure that claims to be of Virgin Birth.

 

What are you trying to say? "No other legendary figure was of Virgin Birth, only Jesus => so Jesus is not a myth." How are they associated?

 

4. What's the purpose of listing Robin Hood and King Arthur to connect with your statement that Jesus has a historical name, are you reflecting that "although Jesus has no historical base"?

[Guest Guest]

4.  Robin Hood, William Tell, and King Author all have historical bases, but none of those names appear any where in History. Jesus of Nazareth is a historical name in written history.

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Well, I'll be, TGB...you are right! King Author has never been in any historical accounts that I know of. OTH, I have heard legends about King Arthur.

[Ouroboros]

Wow, what a witty "guest"...LOL

You still have the login problems?

[Mythra]

The virgin births I listed are just the ones where the guy is a real guy, and later they developed a story of his miraculous birth.

 

If you want to get into all of the stories of miraculous births of half-god, half-men, there is a big list of mythological characters (see Hans' link) Hercules, Horus, Attis, Osiris, Mithras (ah-hem..) Krishna, Zoroaster..

 

Being born of a virgin was all the rage back then..

[Checkmate]

What is going on around here? Is it now our job to educate "Christians" in proper research and apologetics? What is it with these sorry ass attempts to dazzle us with lame "arguments" for "Jesus"?

 

For fuck's sake, "Christians"! Do your own fucking homework before posting! It's not that hard! At least TRY to look like you know what you're writing about.

[Checkmate]

Yes and until I click post and see "guest" I don't even realize it!  This has NEVER happened before, I'll try my hardest not to do it again.

Aww, don't do that! What'll me and Han have to chuckle about?

 

 

You're a sweetheart, you know that?

[Mythra]

So, good book. You say in your title that Jesus is not a myth. Start making a goddamned defense then.

 

Explain why Paul knew nothing of the virgin birth, Jesus' miracles, his teachings, his parables, his exorcisms.

 

Explain why Pliny the Elder did not record the sun darkening at mid-day or the earthquake or the splitting of the temple curtain.

 

Explain why Josephus failed to mention that Herod killed the firstborn of every family in Bethlehem.

 

Explain how gnosticism and docetism could have gotten off the ground and gained acceptance, at the same time as supposed eyewitnesses to Jesus were still alive.

 

(I know you won't know what docetism is, so I'll give you a cursory explanation. The docetae believed that Jesus only appeared to be a man, and was a sort of illusion - a phantom)

 

So, we are waiting for a defense of the gospel.

[Ouroboros]

Yes and until I click post and see "guest" I don't even realize it!  This has NEVER happened before, I'll try my hardest not to do it again.

It's because of Dave's changes. This forum now is more open than before. I don't think unregistered guests were allowed at all before, and it seems that's part of the change.

 

If you log in from the portal entrance, don't you have a checkbox to save the login?

[Asuryan]

*deleted by author*

[Ouroboros]

So, we are waiting for a defense of the gospel.

And also how it could be so many heretic versions of Christianity between start until 3rd century, until the Catholic Church started to squelch them.

 

Filastrius made a list of 156 unique heretical denominations at 390 CE.

 

And it wasn't better before that. Probably even more.

[Guest Soulfire]

From http://www.africawithin.com/kwaku/virgin_birth.htm

 

"Other beings were associated with the Immaculate Conception and Resurrection story. Their life stories parallel that of Jesus, which parallel that of Heru (Horus). In Mexico, in the Codex Vaticanus, this being is called Quexalcote. In China, in the History of the Rajahs, the name Xaca is mentioned, and also Yu. In India they are called Buddha and Krishna. Sakia, Scipio, Arion, Zulis, Bacchus, Alcides, and Hesus are some of the beings associated with the two events previously mentioned. In actuality, the virgin birth/resurrection story has floated all over the world, in various cultures, various interpretations, before, during and after the Mary Jesus version."

[Celsus]

1. The Jesus seminary does not speak for true Christianity.

 

* Seminary is a theological college at the graduate level.

* What is "True ™ Chirstianity"? Is it Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, Egyptian Coptic, Lutheran, Baptist, etc. of the 30,000+ claimants?

 

2. Name one Legendary figure that claims to be of Virgin Birth.

 

* Adonis born pre 2000 BC of virgin Astarte, for whom the spring festival of rebirth, Eastros was named, called both God the Father and Son, Crucified to save mankind and then resurrected.

 

* Horus born 1550 BC of virgin Isis (Egyptian name for Astarte) received gifts from 3 kings, was crucified on cross, many other similarities to Jesus story.

 

* Krishna born 1200 BC of virgin Devake, (angelic voice announced his birth to her) in a cave, (early Christian writings claimed Jesus born in cave, not manger) heralded by a bright star, while foster father in city to pay taxes, evil king Kansa tried to kill savior by ordering slaughter of all male children, visited by wise men with gifts, many sayings and teachings similar or identical to Jesus' teachings, performed many miracles and was crucified.

 

* Indra born 725 BC of virgin, walked on water, other miracles, similar teachings, crucified-nailed to cross.

 

* Mithra born of virgin 600 BC, Dec 25, born in a cave, magi brought gifts, shepherds worshipped, had 12 disciples, died on cross to atone for mankind's sins, ascended to heaven at spring equinox (Eastros). Held last supper with his 12, celebrated a type of Eucharist with wafers marked with a cross.

 

* Attis, born of virgin Nana 200 BC, hanged on tree, resurrected, called Father God, died as atonement of sins, followers celebrated his resurrection on Eastros by parading in streets carrying small decorated pine trees and exchanging gifts.

 

There are 20 crucified savior/god/resurection myths from the Middle East which predate Jesus and all incorporate several similarities found in the story of Jesus.

 

3. The Followings and other "Semi-Historical events" don't need to be recorded to be true. If it weren't true, the historians would have proven these events false 2000 years ago. No one did.

 

Consider the people of the time. Events were not record as they are today. At that time historical records were not held to the same standard.

 

Based upon Thegoodbook's parameters, the supposed revelation of Moroni to Joseph Smith, Gabriel to Mohammed should also be accepted as true, which I am fairly positive Thegoodbook would dispute. What is of importance is to use common sense. The Jesus story sounds like a myth, none of the extraordinary events are recorded by any contemporary historian, of which many lived in the area and wrote about other obscure religions. social and political movements.

 

 

4.  Robin Hood, William Tell, and King Author all have historical bases, but none of those names appear any where in History. Jesus of Nazareth is a historical name in written history.

 

No one claims that the legendary, mythical aspects of King Arthur, Robin Hood, et al are factual. While there may have been a person that the mythical Robin Hood or Jesus are based upon, the legendary, mythical beings portrayed are exactly that, mythical.

 

Bruce

 

[Mythra]

I just read the last thread goodbook started. (about the red sea and the chariot wheels)

 

There seems to be a pattern forming. Post and run.

 

"Jesus is NOT a myth." then he splits.

 

This guy is a sniper.

 

I'll bet he used to ring doorbells and then run and hide when he was a punk.

[Vixentrox]

His certianties seem all pretty much bullshit. Guess his god doesn't give him the courage to actually defend his comments.

[spamandham]

1. The Jesus seminary does not speak for true Christianity.

2. Name one Legendary figure that claims to be of Virgin Birth.

...

 

 

I see dumb people.

[Abiyoyo]

* Seminary is a theological college at the graduate level.

* What is "True Chirstianity"? Is it Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, Egyptian Coptic, Lutheran, Baptist, etc. of the 30,000+ claimants?

* Adonis born pre 2000 BC of virgin Astarte, for whom the spring festival of rebirth, Eastros was named, called both God the Father and Son, Crucified to save mankind and then resurrected.

 

* Horus born 1550 BC of virgin Isis (Egyptian name for Astarte) received gifts from 3 kings, was crucified on cross, many other similarities to Jesus story.

 

* Krishna born 1200 BC of virgin Devake, (angelic voice announced his birth to her) in a cave, (early Christian writings claimed Jesus born in cave, not manger) heralded by a bright star, while foster father in city to pay taxes, evil king Kansa tried to kill savior by ordering slaughter of all male children, visited by wise men with gifts, many sayings and teachings similar or identical to Jesus' teachings, performed many miracles and was crucified.

 

* Indra born 725 BC of virgin, walked on water, other miracles, similar teachings, crucified-nailed to cross.

 

 

 

 

* Mithra born of virgin 600 BC, Dec 25, born in a cave, magi brought gifts, shepherds worshipped, had 12 disciples, died on cross to atone for mankind's sins, ascended to heaven at spring equinox (Eastros). Held last supper with his 12, celebrated a type of Eucharist with wafers marked with a cross.

 

* Attis, born of virgin Nana 200 BC, hanged on tree, resurrected, called Father God, died as atonement of sins, followers celebrated his resurrection on Eastros by parading in streets carrying small decorated pine trees and exchanging gifts.

 

There are 20 crucified savior/god/resurection myths from the Middle East which predate Jesus and all incorporate several similarities found in the story of Jesus.

Based upon Thegoodbook's parameters, the supposed revelation of Moroni to Joseph Smith, Gabriel to Mohammed should also be accepted as true, which I am fairly positive Thegoodbook would dispute. What is of importance is to use common sense. The Jesus story sounds like a myth, none of the extraordinary events are recorded by any contemporary historian, of which many lived in the area and wrote about other obscure religions. social and political movements.

No one claims that the legendary, mythical aspects of King Arthur, Robin Hood, et al are factual. While there may have been a person that the mythical Robin Hood or Jesus are based upon, the legendary, mythical beings portrayed are exactly that, mythical.

 

Bruce

 

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<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hello Mr. Bruce,

 

We learn something new everyday. Yet, Why when learning all these new things about history, and at the same time, not being among the favorite around people in life, because of my veiw of Christ's agenda, still believe?

 

The God of Abraham, is still a reasoning God. Yet, He has left us, the foreigners, to reason among those who want to reason. According to the Bible I have, Precious moments, NKJV( with little kid pictures too); When Jesus came around, and left us here, he gave us the ability to reason and speak, by His name truthfully.

 

After reading this, I thought for a moment to myself and wondered why all these peoples had similar experiences with this. I then jumped out of my computer box, or circle and began to contemplate why ? really?

 

If Christ, in Jesus, was recorded and documented, Would the fulfillment of the rest of the prophetic and direct Word in the Bible be fulfilled. My personall answer to this was, no.

 

Biblically. Some reasoning. The people, Jews and Gentiles alike, said he was a fake. They killed Him. Why would people 2000 years later, believe that He is Christ. Many are called but few are chosen, is what Christ said.

 

My POV. If all things were documented as some people in this world would like them to be, then we wouldnt be living in the times that, the Christ, predicted we would be living in. A time of trouble, a time of rebellion againist the God of Abraham.

 

Another question though, Did any of these peoples proclaim to be from the lineage of David, or for that matter, Abraham?

 

The rulers said that there have arised many of these types of peoples that have had followers like this. They said that the sects have all, after time, fell apart. So, using the Word of God, this confirms that these people might have been so, and of similarity of Christ, yet where not the Holy One of Israel, the Messiah.

 

Jesus, Son of the Living God of Abraham, is still moving strong today 2000years later. The Jews still, some, disbelive that Christ is the Messiah.

 

Better yet, The woman at the well was standing right next to Him, and didnt know He was the Messiah.

 

Lastly, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah did not even recognize the Lord. Yet, Abraham did. Why? Lot did. Why?

 

Did any of these people claim to give rivers flowing of living water in them?

Did any of these people claim that they are fulfilling the scripture, of the God of Israel?

Did any of these people claim to be the Son of God, and confirmed by God Himself with witnesses around?

 

For the topic and response, I believe these are fair questions and comments.

 

jk

[Fweethawt]

Recipe for The Bread of Life -

 

Take two English muffins and toast them.

 

While they are still warm, thoroughly coat

them with butter, peanut butter, and your

favorite jelly or preserves.

 

Eat them, and rinse down with milk.

 

This, is wisdom.