2 Saviors?

[walker]

Walker - I am healing from all of this horrible biblical bullshit. - that is why I am here. if you are a person who still believes that Adam and Eve were Real people, or a deity could be evil (it is what it is) - power to you my friend! Got to church and keep praying for me, please!

 

To me - it's all just silliness, written by ancient man 2000 years ago. People who thought they were hearing what god was saying.do you ever read the horror stories in the bible? I just don't have energy for any of this stupid talk anymore. Sorry to disappoint you. there are 2 testimonies for me right now. One is called -'Virginia - there is no Santa clause, and the other is the 'pastors last letter'. You'll have to find them cause I don't know how to do this. I have been 'hashing' around all this scripture stuff for 30 years. I'm done with it. Thanks anyway for the input.

I don’t personally believe The Deity is evil, but I did ask a philosophical question. Maybe someone will answer it - maybe not. Is there a philosophical reason why a Supreme Being - one with All-Power - cannot be an evil power? After all, haven’t people been saying the world is filled with suffering and evil?

 

About doubts I may have - how can I doubt one I know in relationship? Who doubts the existence of their spouse or friend?

 

Anyway, yes - I’ve read the whole Bible several times. Thanks for your testimony thread names. And you have not disappointed me - you cannot disappoint because there are no expectations. It’s all fine. Have a good night, Margee.

[Guest Valk0010]

On the miraculous being completely different - I don’t really agree. Sometimes what is “miraculous” to people is simply what they don’t understand at the time. Future scientific discoveries often explain what earlier people viewed as “miraculous“. Should we dismiss solid accounts of an miraculous event simply because we don’t yet understand how it could possibly be?

Wouldn't a true miracle be something that can never be explained.

 

I’m not familiar with the miracle claims you previously mentioned or their support, etc. Biblical miracles often have to do with “timing” - kind of the “out of time” supernatural merging into a world “in time” for a moment. IF a Supreme Being exists, this Being would have a far superior understanding of natural law, correct? This Being would be able to do what we can’t yet understand, correct? But if you believe there is no Supreme Being and no supernatural, then there is no way you will see any differently. This is because any supernatural event can be viewed as natural by those for whom the supernatural isn’t an option (even if the “natural“ event can‘t yet be fully explained).

There is a nonsequiter there, and its where I bolded. 1. The supreme being has to be personal. 2.And too, you forget things like observation, repeatability, just in general as well probability and normality. We have good reason to believe for example outside of ancient claims otherwise, that dead people don't rise from dead. So any time we appeal to probability and normality in regards to nature, we are throwing those away. Its not something that could happen again, like say going to lunch. We haven't seen something like that happen. So while we don't have 100 percent cartesian certainity(though we have pretty close) we can say safely that dead people stay dead. Now if that happened in spite of those types of things, that is where its called a miracle and that is why I say it doesn't fit nature. And worse yet dealing with ancient claims, we are at worst(for the atheist or deist) left with the assumption, that the kinds of things that happen today, happened yesterday and will happen tommorow. I would say personally that is more then a assumption, because nature is as far as we can tell uniform. Since as far as we can tell, people don't come back from the dead, we can say, that it couldn't happen then either.

 

Since you cannot prove a Supreme Being does not exist, wouldn’t the supernatural have to be a possible option? Idk - maybe not.

Depends on your definition of supreme being. I would say at best, if the argument for the existence of god, work, you would get a god that doesn't concern itself with human affairs in any reveled religion kind of sense. And you could have a supernatural concept in your belief system but not a god really, for example the ancient Chinese thought that way.

 

I wasn’t really thinking of the apostles - I was thinking about people throughout the entire Bible. People separated from each other by time and even location - and social and educational levels. They all point to a consistent “something”. Delusions do change lives - I’ve witnessed this. But the delusions of one person don’t usually (if ever) match the delusions of another, especially if the people don‘t know each other.

 

Paul didn’t “convert” to “Christianity”. Jesus was Jewish and He led a Jewish life. Jesus didn’t found a new religion, and Paul didn’t convert to it.

Ehh, then why do Christians believe in hell, it was common practice to believe if your a jew of the time to believe in a hades like place of the dead. That is just one example. One of the problems I have with the bible in general, is your getting only the "offical" story. I am not necessarily saying there lying, but I would unfortunately like to know more then just reported. Just because the appearances supposedly matched, doesn't automatically mean they did. Also you have to remember, the time, the supernatural was a accepted thing, if it was a new wrinkly in that supernatural construct, at the time, that is what was considered a miracle.

 

A belief that brings life-changes isn’t necessarily something that is True, but it is something the person believes enough to makes changes for. Beliefs that don’t bring about life-changes probably aren’t worth considering - how much can the person believe if they aren’t acting on the belief? So if people you highly respect and know well are making changes, it might be something to look at. They all claim they saw something, and they’re making changes. Something happened.

And manson supposedly according to legend claimed to be jesus, and levitate a bus over a lake iirc. So is there something to manson and the people joining his cult.

 

No - I don’t have to believe you if you tell me you saw some kind of “ghost” - some super-natural something. But I wouldn’t automatically disbelieve you either. I’d wait, and watch. How are you acting overall? Sane? Insane? Are there signs of substance abuse, high stress, or illness? Is anyone else anywhere reporting a similar story to yours? Has your experience changed you? Can it be explained by lights or some other natural event? I’d evaluate it, but that is because I believe there are things we can’t yet fully understand and there are dimensions/worlds other than concrete reality. (I guess I’d be the one who listened to the guy saying the world was round.)

Actually I was looking through a glass window, standing outside and looking into the business I work at, and it was a high stress day.If I was a ancient I wouldn't be thinking like that, I would be thinking I actually saw a ghost. A argument that explain everything explains nothing btw, as well as its a logical fallacy to say, just because we don't understand something, we have a right to assume god.

 

Look at post 56 btw.

[Guest Valk0010]

Even if I could believe in a diety, why would I pick that disgustingly evil, barbaric, misogynist bible god? Your diabolical imaginary friend is nothing but the blackest of darkness and one of the most vile deities ever to be invented.

Actually, if a deity existed it would exist no matter what we thought of it, right? Why would a deity have to be good and loving to exist? Why couldn’t a deity be evil?

Why in heavens name, would you want to worship and love an 'evil deity'? This would be like worshipping hitler! Are you scared of giong to hell? you MUST be!!

I wouldn't want to worship and love an evil deity. The point is - if there is a deity it is what it is. What we believe about it doesn't change what it is. People have this idea that if a deity exists it must be good. Why? Where did they get such an idea? Is there some reason why a deity couldn't be evil?

Actually my view on this, is that, are lives, would be more on the lines of toy soldiers being burned under a microscope, then ants being stomped on if that makes sense. We would be born in hell for example.

[Guest Valk0010]

Christianity is immoral,the whole concept of salvation, the entire religion is well for the most part immoral.

 

agnostic atheist means, I don't know for a fact there is no god, but I see no reason to believe in one.

Why do you see "salvation" as immoral?

 

Agnostic atheist - O-K.

One big reason, it makes belief superior to actions. The son of sam killer and mark david chapman, both murders, are both christians now, so they are forgiven right? Ghandi on the otherhand died a hindu. Even if all bad things are equal(which makes no sense on its own), it says murderer you can come to heaven, yet unbeliever your doomed to hell. There is something wrong, with giving someone who takes another persons life or rapes a kid a out, yet a person who causes less tangible harm (regardless of some illogical sin equality) but doesn't believe, burns.

[florduh]

Why do you see "salvation" as immoral?

I see it as silly. What you happen to be thinking at your time of death determines where you spend eternity. That makes no sense.

[walker]

Why do you see "salvation" as immoral?

One big reason, it makes belief superior to actions. The son of sam killer and mark david chapman, both murders, are both christians now, so they are forgiven right? Ghandi on the otherhand died a hindu. Even if all bad things are equal(which makes no sense on its own), it says murderer you can come to heaven, yet unbeliever your doomed to hell. There is something wrong, with giving someone who takes another persons life or rapes a kid a out, yet a person who causes less tangible harm (regardless of some illogical sin equality) but doesn't believe, burns.

The murderers you mentioned are now with God if they sincerely chose God’s Way - but whether or not they were sincere isn’t something we can know. (And choosing God’s Way isn’t a moment of feeling bad, saying some words, and getting wet.) Gandhi died a Hindu, but that doesn’t necessarily mean to me that He’s now separated from God. To be clear - I don’t believe in universal salvation and I don’t believe all paths (religions) lead to the One True God. I do believe God can speak to anyone wherever they are and lead them to Himself. All religions contain some Truth - those who are hearing God’s Voice see this Truth and when they meet God face-to-face they can recognize Him and choose to be with Him. After all, we all see through cloudy glasses - no one has perfect understanding.

 

Spending the Afterlife with God is an individual choice. All sin has been forgiven. All will choose being with God or separation from Him. Good works don’t earn heaven and bad works don’t earn hell - but a heart which chose God’s Way while still on earth will affect actions/behavior.

[NoGods]

I see it as silly. What you happen to be thinking at your time of death determines where you spend eternity. That makes no sense.

 

I'll try and think "Science strip club with a good library and BBC 24/7"

[walker]

Wouldn't a true miracle be something that can never be explained.

Maybe while on earth we will never understand a true miracle, but what might we understand in God‘s Full Presence (afterlife)? I’m not suggesting that in the afterlife our understanding will ever equal God’s, but I do believe we will see much clearer and be much less limited than we are now.

 

There is a nonsequiter there, and its where I bolded. 1. The supreme being has to be personal. 2.And too, you forget things like observation, repeatability, just in general as well probability and normality. We have good reason to believe for example outside of ancient claims otherwise, that dead people don't rise from dead. So any time we appeal to probability and normality in regards to nature, we are throwing those away. Its not something that could happen again, like say going to lunch. We haven't seen something like that happen. So while we don't have 100 percent cartesian certainity(though we have pretty close) we can say safely that dead people stay dead. Now if that happened in spite of those types of things, that is where its called a miracle and that is why I say it doesn't fit nature. And worse yet dealing with ancient claims, we are at worst(for the atheist or deist) left with the assumption, that the kinds of things that happen today, happened yesterday and will happen tommorow. I would say personally that is more then a assumption, because nature is as far as we can tell uniform. Since as far as we can tell, people don't come back from the dead, we can say, that it couldn't happen then either.

Are you saying that you believe a Supreme Being has to be personal?I agree there are natural laws - they can be observed and they are reliable. If nature were totally random we could not really have science. We can observe that life dies and death is not normally reversed. (Ancient people had figured this out too.) However, doctors are sometimes able to “bring back to life” one who is clinically dead. To someone who lived 500 years ago this might be “miraculous”. But this ability of a doctor’s is at least currently dependent on how long the person has been clinically dead - and currently three days is too long. Advanced knowledge and technology don’t change natural laws but the depth of our understanding of the laws and our ability to intervene. Would further knowledge tell us how to intervene within natural law and “bring back to life” someone “dead” for a day? Maybe.

 

Natural laws tell us what to expect. If I push a ball I expect it to roll straight forward until friction causes it to come to a stop. If it starts to curve away from a straight path I will look for what interfered - I may find a bump in the floor that caused the ball to change its direction (still according to natural laws). If my dog intervenes and swipes up the ball my idea of what was going to happen changes again, but again according to natural laws. Couldn’t God intervene and change what we expect to happen as well? If God has all knowledge and ability and we have very little in comparison, then isn’t it possible for Him to also intervene within the system of natural law on a level too complex for us to understand?

 

Depends on your definition of supreme being. I would say at best, if the argument for the existence of god, work, you would get a god that doesn't concern itself with human affairs in any reveled religion kind of sense. And you could have a supernatural concept in your belief system but not a god really, for example the ancient Chinese thought that way.

Why do you say that if there is a God He would not be concerned with human affairs?

 

Ehh, then why do Christians believe in hell, it was common practice to believe if your a jew of the time to believe in a hades like place of the dead. That is just one example. One of the problems I have with the bible in general, is your getting only the "offical" story. I am not necessarily saying there lying, but I would unfortunately like to know more then just reported. Just because the appearances supposedly matched, doesn't automatically mean they did. Also you have to remember, the time, the supernatural was a accepted thing, if it was a new wrinkly in that supernatural construct, at the time, that is what was considered a miracle.

Common Jewish beliefs of the time - 1^st century Jews had many thoughts, interpretations, beliefs based on scripture. “Two Jews - three opinions” is quite accurate. The Talmud is very lengthy. While it’s all very interesting, I look at what scripture (Tanakh) does and does not say. Jesus didn’t change or contradict scripture, but He did correct misinterpretations and He did add clarity. Paul didn’t change or contradict scripture either - but he did teach a fuller understanding of what it revealed (based on clearer revelation from Jesus).I think many in this time also believe in a super-natural world (things outside of the concrete natural world).

 

And manson supposedly according to legend claimed to be jesus, and levitate a bus over a lake iirc. So is there something to manson and the people joining his cult.

I think it’s important to look at the big picture, not just one or two points of commonality. What was the character and reputation of Manson’s followers? Were they known for rational thought? Did their lifestyle include substance abuse? etc.

 

Actually I was looking through a glass window, standing outside and looking into the business I work at, and it was a high stress day.If I was a ancient I wouldn't be thinking like that, I would be thinking I actually saw a ghost. A argument that explain everything explains nothing btw, as well as its a logical fallacy to say, just because we don't understand something, we have a right to assume god.

I don’t think ancients were stupid. I bet they understood that water reflects images, for example. We evaluate and look into what we don’t understand. One isolated “something” observed by a rational, reliable person - no big deal. More people involved over time, location, differing backgrounds - observations are similar, lives are changed … maybe something to investigate.

[walker]

I wouldn't want to worship and love an evil deity. The point is - if there is a deity it is what it is. What we believe about it doesn't change what it is. People have this idea that if a deity exists it must be good. Why? Where did they get such an idea? Is there some reason why a deity couldn't be evil?

Actually my view on this, is that, are lives, would be more on the lines of toy soldiers being burned under a microscope, then ants being stomped on if that makes sense. We would be born in hell for example.

"Ants being stomped on" - is that "hell" ? Are we born in "hell" ? Can you give me more of your thoughts here?

[walker]

Why do you see "salvation" as immoral?

I see it as silly. What you happen to be thinking at your time of death determines where you spend eternity. That makes no sense.

If I am understanding you correctly, I agree.

[Guest Valk0010]

Why do you see "salvation" as immoral?

One big reason, it makes belief superior to actions. The son of sam killer and mark david chapman, both murders, are both christians now, so they are forgiven right? Ghandi on the otherhand died a hindu. Even if all bad things are equal(which makes no sense on its own), it says murderer you can come to heaven, yet unbeliever your doomed to hell. There is something wrong, with giving someone who takes another persons life or rapes a kid a out, yet a person who causes less tangible harm (regardless of some illogical sin equality) but doesn't believe, burns.

The murderers you mentioned are now with God if they sincerely chose God’s Way - but whether or not they were sincere isn’t something we can know. (And choosing God’s Way isn’t a moment of feeling bad, saying some words, and getting wet.) Gandhi died a Hindu, but that doesn’t necessarily mean to me that He’s now separated from God. To be clear - I don’t believe in universal salvation and I don’t believe all paths (religions) lead to the One True God. I do believe God can speak to anyone wherever they are and lead them to Himself. All religions contain some Truth - those who are hearing God’s Voice see this Truth and when they meet God face-to-face they can recognize Him and choose to be with Him. After all, we all see through cloudy glasses - no one has perfect understanding.

 

Spending the Afterlife with God is an individual choice. All sin has been forgiven. All will choose being with God or separation from Him. Good works don’t earn heaven and bad works don’t earn hell - but a heart which chose God’s Way while still on earth will affect actions/behavior.

I figured you would say that, your correct, but this is what would happen if people were sincere.

[Guest Valk0010]

I wouldn't want to worship and love an evil deity. The point is - if there is a deity it is what it is. What we believe about it doesn't change what it is. People have this idea that if a deity exists it must be good. Why? Where did they get such an idea? Is there some reason why a deity couldn't be evil?

Actually my view on this, is that, are lives, would be more on the lines of toy soldiers being burned under a microscope, then ants being stomped on if that makes sense. We would be born in hell for example.

"Ants being stomped on" - is that "hell" ? Are we born in "hell" ? Can you give me more of your thoughts here?

I am just saying are world would be alot worse, if there was actually a evil god.

[Guest Valk0010]

You like to run in circles do you walker.

[Guest Valk0010]

 

Are you saying that you believe a Supreme Being has to be personal?I agree there are natural laws - they can be observed and they are reliable. If nature were totally random we could not really have science. We can observe that life dies and death is not normally reversed. (Ancient people had figured this out too.) However, doctors are sometimes able to “bring back to life” one who is clinically dead. To someone who lived 500 years ago this might be “miraculous”. But this ability of a doctor’s is at least currently dependent on how long the person has been clinically dead - and currently three days is too long. Advanced knowledge and technology don’t change natural laws but the depth of our understanding of the laws and our ability to intervene. Would further knowledge tell us how to intervene within natural law and “bring back to life” someone “dead” for a day? Maybe.

I would say a god, that is personal, is the only god who can do miracles. Your just saying we don't know things, so the supernatural is possible, its a meaningless statement. Just because we don't understand things, if fallacious to just appeal to the first thing that comes to mind, until its squarely refuted.

 

Natural laws tell us what to expect. If I push a ball I expect it to roll straight forward until friction causes it to come to a stop. If it starts to curve away from a straight path I will look for what interfered - I may find a bump in the floor that caused the ball to change its direction (still according to natural laws). If my dog intervenes and swipes up the ball my idea of what was going to happen changes again, but again according to natural laws. Couldn’t God intervene and change what we expect to happen as well? If God has all knowledge and ability and we have very little in comparison, then isn’t it possible for Him to also intervene within the system of natural law on a level too complex for us to understand?

Sure if you think, curing blindness is natural, which it isn't. The whole point, is we don't see suspensions of natural law, so why should we think it happened then.

 

Why do you say that if there is a God He would not be concerned with human affairs?

Problem of evil, suffering, incoherence of theism, arguement from locality. Those are various reasons I would say that things like the cosmological arguement, if there sound, proves only a deist god.

 

Common Jewish beliefs of the time - 1^st century Jews had many thoughts, interpretations, beliefs based on scripture. “Two Jews - three opinions” is quite accurate. The Talmud is very lengthy. While it’s all very interesting, I look at what scripture (Tanakh) does and does not say. Jesus didn’t change or contradict scripture, but He did correct misinterpretations and He did add clarity.

Your clarification is my countradiction and nonsequiter.

 

Paul didn’t change or contradict scripture either - but he did teach a fuller understanding of what it revealed (based on clearer revelation from Jesus).I think many in this time also believe in a super-natural world (things outside of the concrete natural world).

Sure, and paul did similar to jesus.

 

I think it’s important to look at the big picture, not just one or two points of commonality. What was the character and reputation of Manson’s followers? Were they known for rational thought? Did their lifestyle include substance abuse? etc.

Cults operate in similar fashions. As far as I can tell, they were well normal people. They weren't all druggies, or anything like that. Not sure it totally matters, what you said could apply to just about any cult, the one that just came to mind what, waco and koresh, and it involved religion.

 

I don’t think ancients were stupid. I bet they understood that water reflects images, for example. We evaluate and look into what we don’t understand. One isolated “something” observed by a rational, reliable person - no big deal. More people involved over time, location, differing backgrounds - observations are similar, lives are changed … maybe something to investigate.

Wow your amazingly circular thinker. I don't think ancient people where stupid either, ignorant is more accurate description. I was just providing my own personal experience, since it means so much to apologetic arguments. I would despite the accuracy of what you think of as a given. And not put it on a pedestal either. The book of mormon had three signed iirc eyewitnesses to its veracity we at best only have 2 eyewitnesses in the bible, more to the truth, its one, paul.

[walker]

Why do you see "salvation" as immoral?

One big reason, it makes belief superior to actions. The son of sam killer and mark david chapman, both murders, are both christians now, so they are forgiven right? Ghandi on the otherhand died a hindu. Even if all bad things are equal(which makes no sense on its own), it says murderer you can come to heaven, yet unbeliever your doomed to hell. There is something wrong, with giving someone who takes another persons life or rapes a kid a out, yet a person who causes less tangible harm (regardless of some illogical sin equality) but doesn't believe, burns.

The murderers you mentioned are now with God if they sincerely chose God’s Way - but whether or not they were sincere isn’t something we can know. (And choosing God’s Way isn’t a moment of feeling bad, saying some words, and getting wet.) Gandhi died a Hindu, but that doesn’t necessarily mean to me that He’s now separated from God. To be clear - I don’t believe in universal salvation and I don’t believe all paths (religions) lead to the One True God. I do believe God can speak to anyone wherever they are and lead them to Himself. All religions contain some Truth - those who are hearing God’s Voice see this Truth and when they meet God face-to-face they can recognize Him and choose to be with Him. After all, we all see through cloudy glasses - no one has perfect understanding.

 

Spending the Afterlife with God is an individual choice. All sin has been forgiven. All will choose being with God or separation from Him. Good works don’t earn heaven and bad works don’t earn hell - but a heart which chose God’s Way while still on earth will affect actions/behavior.

I figured you would say that, your correct, but this is what would happen if people were sincere.

So you think forgiveness is immoral?

[walker]

I wouldn't want to worship and love an evil deity. The point is - if there is a deity it is what it is. What we believe about it doesn't change what it is. People have this idea that if a deity exists it must be good. Why? Where did they get such an idea? Is there some reason why a deity couldn't be evil?

Actually my view on this, is that, are lives, would be more on the lines of toy soldiers being burned under a microscope, then ants being stomped on if that makes sense. We would be born in hell for example.

"Ants being stomped on" - is that "hell" ? Are we born in "hell" ? Can you give me more of your thoughts here?

I am just saying are world would be alot worse, if there was actually a evil god.

Though you are using your own definition of “evil”, I agree that a Supreme Being of this world could not be evil. Evil destroys. I think you have decided that a Supreme Being who is Good would have produced a better world (you would be using your definition of “good”). A good God would have no suffering, pain, death, hardship - correct?

 

With all the suffering, pain, death, hardship in this world why would anyone ever invision a good Supreme Being? (assuming the concept is man-made)

[walker]

You like to run in circles do you walker.

Sometimes you have to view where you are before moving on.