Damned If You Do. Damned If You Don't

[HappyB4]

He goes to church every Sunday. I don't go to church at all. The kids stay with me one Sunday, then go with him the next.

 

There are a few benefits of this, I think. In a mean sort of way, I am happy that they are not "regulars" at their church. The inconsistency, I think, makes them feel less a part of it. That is probably bad of me to say, but I REALLY hate church. The leaders there are from Liberty University. I won't get into it, but I am glad they are not exposed to it in a way that makes that lifestyle the norm for them.

 

I like that they get to relax with me and we get to spend some quality time uncensored by Daddy. He will comment on when dinosaurs lived, dispute the age of earth, etc. when he is with us at the museum.

 

It also lets the kids know that mommy and daddy are equals. We also pray at dinner every other night. I know they think it is strange, but it gets them thinking and wondering why we do it that way instead of just accepting nightly prayer as the norm. He does sneak in to their rooms every night, say prayers and makes them say "Jesus Loves Me." I'm not pleased about that, but I feel I am taking baby steps and am making some progress.

[HappyB4]

As to how we came up with this. I used to go with him every week just to keep up appearances. I was also afraid the kids would mention it to my in-laws on me if I didn't go regularly. But, I started to grow a hatred rather than just an annoyance with the church. The preacher had a sermon about being married to an unbeliever that pissed me off. I got creeped out by the continuous baptism video they ran in the hall with all the people cheering behind the one being dunked (usually a kid). The kids lessons bothered me, too. Toy telephones to call friends and tell them about jesus. A wallet craft to practice giving money. I just couln't do it anymore. I felt like a fraud. I didn't want to be friends with these people no matter how nice they were. I always felt like such a phony.

 

We talked. We fought. We decided that they wouldn't go every week. We no longer fight about church attendance and that is nice.

[foolish girl]

It's like a visitation schedule for god!

I don't think I could ever get an arrangment like that, but you are the first that I have heard from who did. It is a good idea. The beat that I have done so far is eliminate Wednesday nights. My oldest boy is very socially insecure and has recently become old enough for the youth group, so that is difficult because, of course, they make him feel very accepted, So he is really compelled to hang out with them. I really can't blame him though, he gets lonely for peers.

 

I am hoping that I can show him that you can love the christian, not the religion

[HappyB4]

"It's like a visitation schedule for god"

Ha ha!! It is. I always wonder if it's a sign of things to come. I hope not. I would like to think we can work through this. But we are on year 3 now!!

 

We were on the brink of splitting up and I told him I would not let them go every weekend. No way. It wasn't fair. We are both parents, etc. I was serious, too. We would probably have been done had he not agreed. I was feeling so smothered by xianity. A xian home, xian kids, xian friends, and a man who thinks he is the xian leader of the house. I needed to have a little breathing room. I felt like "Hey. These are my things too. Why do I have to live by your rules? It is our house. They are our kids." I was honestly so miserable. I felt like I was just being compliant living life the way he wanted me to. And he was so smug about "winning" when I went to church and pretended. I couldn't have that! I have a little breathing room now. It is definately better. He has shrank back a little from being the almighty ruler of the house. I think he doesn't want to loose me. Which is good. I think if he didn't love me we would have gone our separate ways at that point.

 

I worry about youth groups to come! I am trying to find a good group for myself that I could eventually bring the kids to. Like a UU, or even the Freethinkers. I am debating whether or not to get into boy scouts. I have a chip on my shoulder right now so I tend to want to stay a million miles away from xian things like the boy scouts. But I think it would be good for the social aspects.

Does your son know you are an ex-xian?

[HappyB4]

I should also ad that we were not xians when we met and married. We lived together for a while. Drank on Saturdays, slept in on Sundays. Only after we had kids did we think church would be a good family thing. Three years later he came out a fundy and I came out an atheist. I don't know that I would be as adamant if we had both been xians at the beginning. That would be even more difficult, I would think.

[Overcame Faith]

I usually avoid this top like the plague, but I've decided to join in this one time just to get it off my chest.

 

I have a "mixed" marriage, my wife is a Christian and, of course, I am an ExChristian and an atheist. Once I renounced Christianity, it almost broke up our marriage and that marriage is in peril now. For reasons which I prefer not to discuss publicly, I consented to go to church with her and our daughter. So I go every Sunday and I sit there and listen to the total bullshit they spew and just want to jump and shout down the pastor and tell him how badly his religion is hurting people. Then I want to turn around to the large crowd in this church and ask for a show of hands of those out there who, like me, come here to satisfy family but deep down know that the whole thing is total bullshit. I am sure if people would be honest, the number of hands that would go up would shock the true believers.

 

I do it for the sake of the family. I know others think I and others who do this are wrong. But, with all due respect, that's no one's business but mine and I'll handle my business as I deem appropriate.

 

I can tell you this, though. If something were to happen to my marriage and if I decided to get married again, there is no fucking way that I'd ever in a million years date or marry a Christian woman. No Way!!!!! It would be a godless woman or no woman at all. All hail godless women!!!!!

 

PS, by godless women, I mean women who don't believe in bible god or Koran god. If it's just some amorphous belief that there is some kind of god out there, that's fine. But not that non-existent asshole YHWH (or Allah).

 

Also, FG, I am glad to hear things are improving. That's wonderful progress.

[ilovemybrain]

If something were to happen to my marriage and if I decided to get married again, there is no fucking way that I'd ever in a million years date or marry a Christian woman. No Way!!!!! It would be a godless woman or no woman at all. All hail to godless women!!!!!

 

 

I agree - if I ever found myself single, I would NEVER EVER date a christian!

[stryper]

sorry I missed all this.

 

FG, it does sound like progress, even if he's being a bit thick. You might insist that he takes the cell with him on Sunday's just for this sort of thing. It would help cut down on the "oh I couldn't find a phone" factor, and you could call him too.

 

It sounds like you are both trying and adjusting. That is a good thing.

 

Stay strong.

[Darklady]

FG You are doing real well, hang in there. I have been on both side of this issue. For a number of years I went to church with the kids, and hubby didn't, not because he didn't believe, he is very much a fundy, but because he doesn't like being with groups of people and no church was 'good' enough anyway. I wanted him to go, mainly because I thought if he 'took up his rightful place' he might turn into a decent husband and father. This never happened. During those years, I never tried to force him or played games to get him there. Just prayed (ha ha - lot of good that did).

 

I think its important to be true to yourself, FG, you can make a stand with grace and love, like you often do, but putting yourself into a situation where you are angry and hurt week after week is destructive to your being. Hang in there, we are all supporting you.

[Freedom from Guilt]

I usually avoid this top like the plague, but I've decided to join in this one time just to get it off my chest.

 

I have a "mixed" marriage, my wife is a Christian and, of course, I am an ExChristian and an atheist. Once I renounced Christianity, it almost broke up our marriage and that marriage is in peril now. For reasons which I prefer not to discuss publicly, I consented to go to church with her and our daughter. So I go every Sunday and I sit there and listen to the total bullshit they spew and just want to jump and shout down the pastor and tell him how badly his religion is hurting people. Then I want to turn around to the large crowd in this church and ask for a show of hands of those out there who, like me, come here to satisfy family but deep down know that the whole thing is total bullshit. I am sure if people would be honest, the number of hands that would go up would shock the true believers.

 

I do it for the sake of the family. I know others think I and others who do this are wrong. But, with all due respect, that's no one's business but mine and I'll handle my business as I deem appropriate.

 

I can tell you this, though. If something were to happen to my marriage and if I decided to get married again, there is no fucking way that I'd ever in a million years date or marry a Christian woman. No Way!!!!! It would be a godless woman or no woman at all. All hail godless women!!!!!

 

PS, by godless women, I mean women who don't believe in bible god or Koran god. If it's just some amorphous belief that there is some kind of god out there, that's fine. But not that non-existent asshole YHWH (or Allah).

 

Also, FG, I am glad to hear things are improving. That's wonderful progress.

 

 

I didn't realize this Overcame Faith. I quit going but have been going again some over the past few months. I can't say that it helps but I am trying to do whatever I can to make this marriage work, if at all possible. If I ever became single, I would have a NO fundamentalist Rule. And possibly a no Christian rule. I'm not as off put by liberal Christians, although they are real hard to find in these parts. My highest on the list, besides fundamentalists would be "bubbas" who like to drink and smoke and live hard but love Jesus, hate fags and liberals. Gag me!

 

I've wondered the same thing about church attendees. My therapist told me that all kinds of people go to church for all kinds of reasons. I guess I had never really thought of that before. It's sooooo hard to sit an listen to the drivel, the lies, the whole woo-woo of it all. The speaker at church yesterday kept going on and on about the absolute literal truth of the bible and how god never changes but it's all true and "god is good". Bleh. If God is all good, never changes and it's all true, then He's got some 'splaining to do!

 

Thanks Happy for explaining your situation. I haven't really considering that as an option. I have only thought of it as an option if we split up.

 

freedom

 

 

[asanerman]

Just this. That is why it has been so important to me to handle it well. Always hemming and hawing about every related decision. It is the only thing that has ever caused significant argument or ill treatment between us.

 

I realized also, after my first marriage that "Always hemming and hawing about every related decision. It is the only thing that has ever caused significant argument or ill treatment between us."

 

You know,foolish girl, there are really no winners or losers in marital conflicts. "Victory in a conflict with an intimate 'enemy' can in reality prove dangerous, deadly. The looser is discouraged and prevented from being honest in future quarrels. It sounds paradoxical but if a 'victory' leads to such after-effects, then both partners are losers." (Bach and Wyden)

 

When thinking in terms of 'winner-loser,' actually the 'loser' has many ways in which to re-establish the balance.

 

While there is equality in a relationship, quarrels and disputes can take place to some extent at a common, objective level. At this level dealing with conflict can be compared more with learning to dance than with learning to box.

 

But--in a relationship were conflict is viewed as a 'win-lose' situation--as the balance tips to one side, one of the partners may notice that a direct confrontation is causing them to 'lose' ground. They can resort to the great arsenal of weapons (a dreadful sort) which are available to couples and which enable them--although destructively--to overcome their 'apparent' (only appearing as actual, illusory) inferiority and redress the balance.

 

For my first wife and me that's when things turned nasty! After the five years of smoke cleared from our embattled marriage we both stood looking at each other on the battle field war scared, tired, weary and 'gutted' form the conflict; neither of us winners. Not a pretty sight especially for children.

 

I hope the gesture that your partner is making to you is his way of asking you to dance!

 

saner

[foolish girl]

Just this. That is why it has been so important to me to handle it well. Always hemming and hawing about every related decision. It is the only thing that has ever caused significant argument or ill treatment between us.

 

I realized also, after my first marriage that "Always hemming and hawing about every related decision. It is the only thing that has ever caused significant argument or ill treatment between us."

 

You know,foolish girl, there are really no winners or losers in marital conflicts. "Victory in a conflict with an intimate 'enemy' can in reality prove dangerous, deadly. The looser is discouraged and prevented from being honest in future quarrels. It sounds paradoxical but if a 'victory' leads to such after-effects, then both partners are losers." (Bach and Wyden)

 

When thinking in terms of 'winner-loser,' actually the 'loser' has many ways in which to re-establish the balance.

 

While there is equality in a relationship, quarrels and disputes can take place to some extent at a common, objective level. At this level dealing with conflict can be compared more with learning to dance than with learning to box.

 

But--in a relationship were conflict is viewed as a 'win-lose' situation--as the balance tips to one side, one of the partners may notice that a direct confrontation is causing them to 'lose' ground. They can resort to the great arsenal of weapons (a dreadful sort) which are available to couples and which enable them--although destructively--to overcome their 'apparent' (only appearing as actual, illusory) inferiority and redress the balance.

 

For my first wife and me that's when things turned nasty! After the five years of smoke cleared from our embattled marriage we both stood looking at each other on the battle field war scared, tired, weary and 'gutted' form the conflict; neither of us winners. Not a pretty sight especially for children.

 

I hope the gesture that your partner is making to you is his way of asking you to dance!

 

saner

 

Poetry, even.

[asanerman]

Poetry, even.

 

Touche, I think? foolish girl.

[SirPhoenix]

I can relate. The ONLY thing that gets me to step foot in a church is my wife. I'll go to fellowship events with her, ie, no preaching, but I still hate it. They all LOOK at me like the poor lost sinner. The condesention is palatable. Everyone wants to smile and say hi, not because they really give a shit that I'm there, but that they hope I start coming back. At least they are friendly there, even if it is in a way to big of a smile/psycho kind of way.

 

The only guilt I feel over not going is that she is doing it alone. She doesn't give me any grief about my change in beliefs, but I think this is because she has her own doubts and just hasn't gotten to the point where she can make that step of shedding christianity.

 

 

[foolish girl]

Poetry, even.

 

Touche, I think? foolish girl.

 

Oh! It was a compliment, not condescension. I enjoyed your post thank you!

[foolish girl]

One step forward, two steps back.

 

This morning he tells me that his grandmother is hosting lunch today. I said "So will you come home after church first, or should I just meet you there?"

Very innocently, based on last week's events.

He sighed and said "I guess I'll come home first"

I asked later what the new Sunday School class is about.

Apologetics, he tells me.

So I said "OH LORD"....before I could think or stop myself.

"Yes, exactly" he says.

"I'm sorry!" I tell him. (didn't mean to be rude)

So we go on to have this conversation. I told him how the muslims have their apologetics for the Koran, how the evidence of nature contradicts creationism and how most apologetic arguments are fallacious. I told him that the teacher wouldn't be able to handle me and I wouldn't be able to handle being silent, so it was a good thing that I wasn't going. (That's it in a nutshell. It wasn't an ugly argument- he tried to refute everything that I said, but we weren't fighting....he did call me arrogant at one point, but that is it.)

So he said, "well I do hope that you will decide to come at some point!".meaning The "worship service".

I asked what purpose that would serve. He said he likes to be with me, it would make him happy.

I told him that we can be together in many circumstances, but if I come to church I have three options.

1.Sit and listen and feel agitated and keep my mouth shut- not mentally healthy.

2. Open my mouth and shred the argument- socially awkward.

3. Or change.

I am not going to change, I told him. They are not going to change my mind with weak arguments that I already know inside and out.

I told him even if evolutionary science is wrong.which it is not.that doesn't meant that the opposite of that is Yahweh, a wrathful and jealous god.

 

So they all went to church, and in the driveway he said "Well, I hope you'll decide to show up".

"I thought we made progress last week" I told him with disappointment.

"Why, because I didn't yell?" he says

So I said, "well, I guess we will have to talk about this some more later, but I will not be coming to church today."

 

To which he got into the car and drove away.

 

oh yeah. Also, i am selfish. Because my feelings on this subject matter enough to effect my actions. Selfish. And arrogant.

 

Do any of you remember the the little sniveling blog that I linked to about a week ago? "Inside bryansbrain" it was about how people don't go to church on Sundays and should have their priorities straightened out. THAT is who is teaching the class. This poor repressed man who doesn't even know that he is gay.

[foolish girl]

one more time, for good measure.

Hold your own, go your way, know your own name.

[oddbird1963]

Churches seem to be having a lot more apologetics classes than they used to. I wonder if that's a sign they know they are losing the battle intellectually. They need these classes to reassure themselves they aren't indulging in fantasy.

 

They don't want you to raise honest questions, fg. They may say that on the surface. But once you counter a pat answer with more reason or facts, they will grow uncomfortable or angry. It's not a class about dialog. It's about reassurance and reinforcing fallacious arguments.

[foolish girl]

Churches seem to be having a lot more apologetics classes than they used to. I wonder if that's a sign they know they are losing the battle intellectually. They need these classes to reassure themselves they aren't indulging in fantasy.

 

They don't want you to raise honest questions, fg. They may say that on the surface. But once you counter a pat answer with more reason or facts, they will grow uncomfortable or angry. It's not a class about dialog. It's about reassurance and reinforcing fallacious arguments.

 

Agreed, and honestly there was more than one moment this morning when I really considered going, just to stir the pot. I know I could make the teacher cry!

[MagickMonkey]

 

Do any of you remember the the little sniveling blog that I linked to about a week ago? "Inside bryansbrain" it was about how people don't go to church on Sundays and should have their priorities straightened out. THAT is who is teaching the class. This poor repressed man who doesn't even know that he is gay.

 

I missed that link. Please repost.

[Ro-bear]

A clean break heals fastest. Just stop going at all. If you are damned either way, you should take the route you prefer. As long as he has hope, he will punish you for dashing it.

[foolish girl]

Do any of you remember the the little sniveling blog that I linked to about a week ago? "Inside bryansbrain" it was about how people don't go to church on Sundays and should have their priorities straightened out. THAT is who is teaching the class. This poor repressed man who doesn't even know that he is gay.

 

I missed that link. Please repost.

 

Here monkey:

Our Music Minister's blog.

 

This minister chided me one time at church, in a friendly playful way, because I had written on a facebook status that this "Makes me want to kick some ass"....I was referring to a video that I had shared of a woman being whipped in public for wearing trousers UNDER her Burkah.

 

But I shouldn't say ass?

 

He said to me "I saw your status the other day...you really should watch your language..."

I was like "Why because I said 'ASS'? it's just a word. It's in the bible, would like me to go up on stage and share my thoughts with the congregation?"

 

When I am in church lately, I have taken to talking rather loudly, lol

[Overcame Faith]

He said to me "I saw your status the other day...you really should watch your language..."

 

Response that came to my mind immediately upon reading of this asshole chiding you: "Pastor, you really should mind your own fucking business. How's that for watching my language?"

[Darklady]

Hi girl (you are not foolish lol) Ive been following you journey, as you know, and admire you heaps.

I just want to ask you something, do you think he'll change and accept you for who you are? Or do you think you will be still fighting the same battles in 6 months, a year, ten years? How do you think this will end? I kept hoping that things would change for me, they never did and now I wonder why I didn't make the break, 10, 15 years ago. I lived with a lot of pain and unhappiness I didn't need to live with. That's all I want to say really, think about where you will be one day in the future and where you want to be.

[MagickMonkey]

Do any of you remember the the little sniveling blog that I linked to about a week ago? "Inside bryansbrain" it was about how people don't go to church on Sundays and should have their priorities straightened out. THAT is who is teaching the class. This poor repressed man who doesn't even know that he is gay.

 

I missed that link. Please repost.

 

Here monkey:

Our Music Minister's blog.

 

This minister chided me one time at church, in a friendly playful way, because I had written on a facebook status that this "Makes me want to kick some ass"....I was referring to a video that I had shared of a woman being whipped in public for wearing trousers UNDER her Burkah.

 

But I shouldn't say ass?

 

He said to me "I saw your status the other day...you really should watch your language..."

I was like "Why because I said 'ASS'? it's just a word. It's in the bible, would like me to go up on stage and share my thoughts with the congregation?"

 

When I am in church lately, I have taken to talking rather loudly, lol

 

After going to that link, I think I remember seeing it now. Sorry bout that. I guess Calculus is leaving little room for anything else in my brain.