Vigile Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Yes, I think we should be careful and conscientious that we don't give people a reason to think we are wrong. Personally, I think truth stands on its own. I cringe (though not as much as I used to) at the appeal of winning them over with kindness, or at least avoiding creating bad impressions. It's too close to "salt of the world" appeals that I had hammered into me since my earliest memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Absolutely. I wish we could step back a few steps myself. I personally don't feel the need to unload on an xian who is being obnoxious anymore, but doing so in the past was something I needed and I'm sure others deconverting do too. I agree. I would like to see more of the way it was in 2005-2006. It was "give em both barrels" and some people do need that. In the Lion's Den, of course. It helped me a lot, and it is what initially attracted me to this site. I finally felt free to express myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freespirit Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Yes, I think we should be careful and conscientious that we don't give people a reason to think we are wrong. Personally, I think truth stands on its own. I cringe (though not as much as I used to) at the appeal of winning them over with kindness, or at least avoiding creating bad impressions. It's too close to "salt of the world" appeals that I had hammered into me since my earliest memories. I understand that and can appreciate it. However, it's just part of my nature to try to be kind to all people. It just makes good sense in my way of thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xtech Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 we should never be hostile to christians for if we do it only gives them reason to belive that the world is evil and out to get them only strengthing their claims that they are the peacful ones of the earth. people who are judged will feel the right to judge in return and thats why you have things such as terrorist movments. the problem comes in is we know what they belive is desructive to humanity so how do we respond to them? i think we need to expose them to the flaws of their faith with out actualy bashing the christian itself. but of course this idea is hard to to do in reality. an eye for a eye and a tooth for a tooth makes the whole world blind and evry one starves as the saying goes. Yes I wonder about this. I have had the wrenching experience of seeing a fundie get ripped a new one with those ridiculous apologetics arguments he presents on a hobbyist website. I feel pretty sure the reason he is doing this, repeatedly and dumbly making those wacky claims and getting hammered for it, is that he is gathering evidence for how the world is against him because he is Christian. This is a martyr complex in all its self-pitying glory. Don't play into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I am reminded of the cartoon showing a militant muslim strapped in explosives, a militant christian with a gun outside an abortion clinic, and a militant atheist wearing an "out" tee-shirt and drinking a latte. I am reminded of the ubiquitous xian billboards, brazen billboards, with pointed proselytization, social, or political agendas, compared with billboards so rare that I have never even actually seen one that say something as benign as "I can be good without God" that stir up absolute stink-storms, sometimes being forced down. I remember the some reactions I've gotten from some careful and subtle test balloons with people I knew being equal to some reactions I got from very obnoxiously "street witnessing" when I was assured that the god the created the universe commanded me to do so. No matter what we do, we will be "demonized" (so to speak), because that is the lie that is being spread from evangelical circles: that without god we are agents of the devil and horrible people. I am inclined to believe that if we present ourselves as the normal human beings that we are, not proselytizing, but rather simply not hiding that we are not xians for fear of persecution, that much like for gays, it will gradually start to become less and less deniable that we are not horrible agents of darkness with an agenda to take over the world with oppression, evil, darkness, rape, murder, pillage, etc. Consider the following hot button social and policy issues for many xians: taking a stand that science be taught in the classroom instead of creation mythology IS construed as evil and anti-christian among many evangelical circles. Taking a stand that gays should have the same rights as heterosexuals IS construed as a full scale attack on the bible, xianity, and morality among many evangelical circles. Guarding against the establishment of a theocracy is construed as spiritual warfare against xians in many fundamentalist circles. For those of us who think that these religiously motivated goals must be kept in check (and I am happy to be one of them), I think we would be remiss to STFU about it. On average, I do not think we ex-christians, non-believers, etc., are too harsh, but much to our credit, are typically quite civil. It is certainly not non-christians I hear quotes from like "No, I don't know that atheists(christians) should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 in general, I tolerate xtians in public unless they start their ranting BS about how bad everyone in the world is who do not believe but xtians are sooooooo good to be around cuz god loves them more than me, blah, blah blah. then I get pissed and chew on their asses for a while. A few years ago I was visiting a friend at a college, sitting in the middle of the field between buildings in a group of good-natured folks and this dick with a bible comes up and starts yelling at the top of his voice how great god was and we were all going to hell, and on and on and on. he chose to stand just behind me where I was sitting on the ground to do his screaming, which wasn't a good location for him. we yelled back at him to fuck off and shut the fuck up! he left with his tail between his legs, maybe crying too, I dunno but we went back to having a good time. I really do hate street preachers with a passion. if a person makes a statement in public, there is nothing in our country, USA, that prevents us from also making a public statement to the contrary. But I have learned that a good-natured cop can give you a ticket for disturbing the peace for causing a commotion whether in favor of god or not. I never got one but it's something to think about when publicly debating a dickhead. I do try to tone it down in public places but I still get my point across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I agree. I would like to see more of the way it was in 2005-2006. It was "give em both barrels" and some people do need that. I was thinking about this the other day - there was definitely many more heated debates and arguments back then. And a lot more Christians were around back then too. What changed? I think back then (and a mod can correct me if I am wrong), people could post to the Lion's Den without registering so it was easy to jump right in and start a debate. I guess registration is good for controlling spam, but it is also kind of a pain in the ass and discourages casual posters.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Im usually pretty placid until someone gets in my face about christianity. I'm as feisty as fuck when they so do though but being an introvert I'm not into public spectacle either. I'd had a hard life before I joined the cult back in 1984, but in all reality those people and the christians that came after have destroyed my trust in other people and my belief that there is anything good left in the world. I still have nightmares, anxiety attacks, deep depression and periods of rage because I have no recourse against their apalling behaviour. I still have to watch them patting each other on the back about how fucking wonderful they are while my life has pretty well been stolen from me by the lies they told me and the way they manipulated me when they KNEW what a mess I was in already. Harsh? There are a couple of particularly recalcitrant ones I'd like to shoot right through the fucking head, and their enabling sycophantic buddies along with them. These are people who continued to verbally abuse me and accuse me of untrue things when I was already suicidal because they believed that was what I deserved. As far as I am concerned they are unmitigated assholes and despicable pieces of humanity. Then there are the cowardly ones who just stood by and watched it all and did not lift one finger to defend me or return the many many kindnesses I had extended to them over the years. I can tell you what harsh is, christians are experts at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Note from Resident Knucklehead: "Fukk'um All!" Polite and "normal" is reserved for those whom that state of affairs is given first. MOST religious folks step in here all nice, kind, pretty and smelling good, just like waiting for a first date. THEN the fangs and teeth get let out and the blood and body parts start to fly. Aint'a no good reason, save it IS fun to dig into a newbie salvation station sort to come into OUR on.line Home and attempt to use ExC as their very own personal salvation spot, one to be used 'cause the "we" are in a place that can't be easily run from. This place on the inTART00bZ is for the Primal Scream, the blood letting YELLING it may take for those escaping their religious experiences and life long shackles. WMDave has made damn sure this spot is open for those who need this place to get xtianity and like religions out of their systems. It is NOT a "nice place" where "we" hold hands and sing songs, play nice to religious freaks. Fuck those cretins. It is proper to let them have both barrels or empty whatever magazine you've got into their electronic harassment of those here. "YOU" will not be penalized nor booted off the life boat for defending yourself against those idiots who might come into WMdave's place to try and re-snare and take "you" back into the folks of lifelong fuckups. MY job is to take care of the trash and keep the floors swept. MY pleasure to show said cretins back out the front door, usually on the end of my Size 14 boot... kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I am inclined to believe that if we present ourselves as the normal human beings that we are, not proselytizing, but rather simply not hiding that we are not xians for fear of persecution, that much like for gays, it will gradually start to become less and less deniable that we are not horrible agents of darkness with an agenda to take over the world with oppression, evil, darkness, rape, murder, pillage, etc. Even with the concept were are not all bad folk sucking on satans dick, they have been brainwashed into the concept of teh debbul manifesting hisself as an angel of light and as such we have been deceived into following said bright light bulb. I really get a kick of taking these misconceptions (a word most cannot even spellz) and admitting we are sacrificing baybees and raping GMILFS in nursing homes, etc. The majority of fundiebots have no fucking clue as to what they buybull states and even less so the origins of their death cult religion. That said, when one comes here questioning and not accosting us with walls of apologetic texts that causes our mouse scroll wheels to heat up and wear out, we can take a calmer approach. Sadly most think we just have not seen the light quite right and this is why wez angreez at their invisible friendz..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Yes, I think we should be careful and conscientious that we don't give people a reason to think we are wrong. Personally, I think truth stands on its own. I cringe (though not as much as I used to) at the appeal of winning them over with kindness, or at least avoiding creating bad impressions. It's too close to "salt of the world" appeals that I had hammered into me since my earliest memories. I understand that and can appreciate it. However, it's just part of my nature to try to be kind to all people. It just makes good sense in my way of thinking. I try to be too, and as I get older, I'm even finding I'm much more successful at it. I do it because I like people and because it's my nature to though. I don't want to do it to win people over to my cause. This, I guess is where I stupidly stand on principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I mean i understand that people are going to be livid over what was done to them whilst in Fundamentalism, but can't we do what they say they do and forgive them? Again i realize a lot of it is fucked up, but we've all been there, we all believed it Doesn't it just alienate them more when we mock them? I mean i can see venting among others who are equally as jaded by christianity, i'm just afraid sometimes that we are giving evangelists fuel to show how evil and anti-christian the world is. I know it's not really our concern to think about such things, but shouldn't we consider others when debating and what not on other sites? I don't know, i guess i say this because, personally, all the christian bashing kind of made me afraid there was some truth to what they said about "the world" that "the truth burned their ears". I also know that a lot of people who are on the fence are off-put by hostility towards christians (i know i was). I guess all i'm saying is can't we treat them how we'd like to be treated (sorry for the cliche.....) I don't know, i'm not saying don't vent or anything, i guess open hostility just bothers me sometimes.....i might be the only one, and I apologize if this sounds a bit too mushy, i guess i just wanted to "vent" about how i'm sad at how we treat those who are just as fucked up as we once were, you know? I know they don't deserve it or anything, i guess it's my later years in christianity, but i guess i'm just scared we'll prove them right sometimes or begin blaming the victims I very passionately make fun of Christians and Christianity. Do I think I should stop? Sometimes. But it's also who I am. If I saw a perfectly sane adult leaving milk and cookies out for Santa even though he lived by himself, I would make a joke about that. I'm a very sarcastic person, and I don't really see why religion should get a free pass. In fact, religion should get it the worst! It's almost always the one to throw the first punch...think about all the gays, scientists, and just anyone not their religion. No one's trying to take away the religious freedom, but the religious are trying to take away everyone elses. Making fun of them is like blocking a punch, and I for one am not going to let them punch me for free! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScifiChick Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Absolutely. I wish we could step back a few steps myself. I personally don't feel the need to unload on an xian who is being obnoxious anymore, but doing so in the past was something I needed and I'm sure others deconverting do too. I agree. I would like to see more of the way it was in 2005-2006. It was "give em both barrels" and some people do need that. In the Lion's Den, of course. It helped me a lot, and it is what initially attracted me to this site. I finally felt free to express myself. I wandered into this place after my husband found it, and it was shortly after having a "friend" on Facebook defriend me for something very innocuous. There's also another site I hang out on - has nothing to do with religion per se, but we do have a religion forum, and every time I ever post something about obnoxious fundies, I have to put all these disclaimers on anything I say about how I don't mean all Christians, etc., etc. It's been such a relief to find a place where I can let loose without having to qualify every single thing I say. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedAtheist Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Depending on my moods I go from "let's be friends!!!111" to "Fuck all them scumy cunts". In all seriousness though, I generally don't mind religious folk. They can believe whatever the fuck they want just so long they don't try peddling their shit in my presence. That's what pisses me off. There is so much arrogance behind their attempts to "save" us that it drives me into a berserker rage. Just the other day I saw some fuckwit handing out tracts wearing a suit with a huge ass smile on his face (already thinking he was better than everyone) and eventually I saw him "talking" (read: frothing at the mouth in a blind rage. No joke) to someone about how the Bible specifically states that the Catholic church is from the pits of hell. If I could've been more bothered, I would have asked "Chapter/verse?" and then waited for the lols. Anyways, the problem is Christians can't help but peddle their shit and not only peddle it, expect US to live by THEIR morals. It's not "hey, you live how you want and we'll live how we want" it's "our God expects YOU to live by OUR rules". Total bullshit and I won't stand for it. I also won't stand it when some internet apostle wannabe tries to win me to faith again because he believes I never "truly" believed or that I believing in the "wrong" version. They come onto our turf, I simply want them to fuck off and do something far more productive for their faith, like reading one of their Bibles that's gathering dust. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josefe Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I don't bash christian unless they deserve it. I think if we approach them with a positive and honest manner they might listen, and those watching will see that. Being rude on the other hand could push them away from learning about the truth. Jesse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freespirit Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 For a long time, on a certain forum, I would confront especially pastors who I thought were abusing their power. I loved every minute of it because I felt very qualified and felt I could reveal their weaknesses to others if I could not get them to admit anything. It was very therapeutic. But, after a while, I got sick of it, although I still try to defend the weak sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 This combativeness is an American thing. I live in northern Italy now and while Catholicism is ubiquitous and while the Vatican does meddle in public life here and there, hardly anybody gives nearly as much of a shit about these things as people do back in America. That goes for both believers and atheists. For example, someone here once told me they knew this guy who was an utterly insane religious fanatic, and when they described in detail what his thing was, I laughed. "He would have fit right in at my old Pentecostal church." The look on their faces... especially considering that America has most the nukes.... A Canadian scholar once told me that Canada is more mellow about it than America. The USA is 26% fundie but Canada is only 10% fundie, and they're concentrated in Alberta/Sasketchewan and their only public stance seems to be "please be nice to us." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I'm from Saskatchewan, and it's been called the Canadian bible belt. There's the "please be nice to us" mentality as well as persecution complex. It's kinda funny, really. But most fundies I know are still pretty nice people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HistorySkptc Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Yeah most Bible Belt Southerners I've known are fairly insecure about their intelligence and desperately want others to "be nice to them." And they are the more educated ones who keep their beliefs "private." I guess if you never read anything and never have to defend anything, you can just call that "private." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 This combativeness is an American thing. I live in northern Italy now and while Catholicism is ubiquitous and while the Vatican does meddle in public life here and there, hardly anybody gives nearly as much of a shit about these things as people do back in America. That goes for both believers and atheists. For example, someone here once told me they knew this guy who was an utterly insane religious fanatic, and when they described in detail what his thing was, I laughed. "He would have fit right in at my old Pentecostal church." The look on their faces... especially considering that America has most the nukes.... A Canadian scholar once told me that Canada is more mellow about it than America. The USA is 26% fundie but Canada is only 10% fundie, and they're concentrated in Alberta/Sasketchewan and their only public stance seems to be "please be nice to us." Did you get married? What are you doing for a visa? Or are you only staying for a few months? Sorry for the thread sidetrack, but interested people wanna know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dichotomy Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 This combativeness is an American thing. I live in northern Italy now and while Catholicism is ubiquitous and while the Vatican does meddle in public life here and there, hardly anybody gives nearly as much of a shit about these things as people do back in America. That goes for both believers and atheists. For example, someone here once told me they knew this guy who was an utterly insane religious fanatic, and when they described in detail what his thing was, I laughed. "He would have fit right in at my old Pentecostal church." The look on their faces... especially considering that America has most the nukes.... A Canadian scholar once told me that Canada is more mellow about it than America. The USA is 26% fundie but Canada is only 10% fundie, and they're concentrated in Alberta/Sasketchewan and their only public stance seems to be "please be nice to us." Is this why I can't quite relate to some of the stories shared on here? I am genuinely shocked by how some people's families and communities react to their atheism and the way they speak about non xians in general because I just haven't experienced that much over here. On the whole, as far as I can tell, in the UK people don't really care what you believe even if they disagree, and we're certainly not going to be impolite and tell anyone if we *do*..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xtech Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 If I'd had Ex-christian.net after I deconverted those many many years ago, I am sure I would have been real harsh. I was angry at being misled, angry at the dishonesty, angry at the ... there's a litany of things that are familiar to you all, I am sure. However keep in mind many Christians are the way they are because that is how they were raised. Some have been in a bubble. I sometimes feel there needs to be an atheist or non-believer presence in the lives of many of those Christians, especially in communities where Christians are the majority. Movies like The Ledge and books like Dawson's etc are making an impact. But real everyday people need to be 'out' about their lack of belief, and if it involves dismantling apologetics arguments, well that is important too. But just BE, just be a good, normal, person, one they can see is no different than anyone else. Harsh? Don't like it. I see too much 'othering' and 'us versus them-ness' going on in any religion and belief system, and even in the non-belief system of some atheists. Help the Christian rather than antagonize. Many are on their own journey, some on the way to becoming an ex-Christian. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I don't know, i guess i say this because, personally, all the christian bashing kind of made me afraid there was some truth to what they said about "the world" that "the truth burned their ears". I also know that a lot of people who are on the fence are off-put by hostility towards christians (i know i was). I guess all i'm saying is can't we treat them how we'd like to be treated (sorry for the cliche.....) I purposely avoided reading all the responses to your OP so I could say what comes to mind. American christians that wear their religion on their sleeves and cars, follow the Golden Rule but never follow the Silver Rule. They evangelize wherever they may be, and are the first to bash anyone over the head violently or even "nicely" with their bibles. They do to others what they do to themselves (biblical masochism), and that's how they follow the Golden Rule: do to others as you would have others God do to you. They ask me about my religious beliefs out of the blue. They cold call at my home. They want to make this country a theocracy even though they have privileged status. When I deconverted, I mostly kept it to myself. I tried to go away quietly, but they would not let me be. Even after many years, I had to give one of my parents a piece of my mind. My father is not a fundy, but insists on praying out loud before every meal. After repeatedly trying to persuade me to do so, I finally said "that [prayer] is what got me in trouble in the first place". He knew I was referring to all the things that cost me dearly as a direct result of being involved with religious institutions and certain people. Prayer directed my decisions, and I paid the price. I empathize with christians, BUT if they choose to come to this site-which is for ExCers, not them-then they have to pay the price of admission. They were hostile first, so I think we should take a stand and drive our points through their thick skulls. I say thick skulls because when I was a christian, I would never have come to a site like this. Not that I think we should be assholes, but they certainly need to hear exactly what brought us here! Free speech is important to us, so I say let's speak our minds. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Did you get married? What are you doing for a visa? Or are you only staying for a few months? Sorry for the thread sidetrack, but interested people wanna know... Aw, tanx. I is a married man now (as of two weeks ago), and I've applied for permanent residency. Now all I gotta do is somehow manage to get a permanent job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted July 21, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted July 21, 2011 Aw, tanx. I is a married man now (as of two weeks ago), and I've applied for permanent residency. Now all I gotta do is somehow manage to get a permanent job. Congrats and much happiness to you and your wife! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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