Living Without Expectations

[Margee]

[Oh fuck, just stop it Bob! Fall to rise. I hate to say it, die to live. It's about awakening. It's about release.

 

Again, I think this has a lot to do with personality types. Melancholy personality types will never have new eyes. We want the world the way we know it COULD be, not the way it is. Not everyone is capable of pushing away the thousand little assualts that come every day. It IS exhausting.

 

For some of us life is endured, not enjoyed and I really don't think there is a whole hell of a lot we can do about it.

 

 

 

 

Here comes another crazy question...........

Even if one is 'enduring' life - do you still think it's possible to enjoy aspects of it, and if so - how??

[Vigile]

I expect people to value my soul the way I value theirs. That is always my first mistake.

 

Perhaps if you just instead found pleasure when someone else surprisingly enjoys your soul it too will give you pleasure, while the rest is all just default. I enjoy your soul, my friend.

 

DB wrote:

 

OMG -- what. you. said. Boy, does that hit the nail on the head.

 

I enjoy your's too.

[DesertBob]

Here comes another crazy question...........

Even if one is 'enduring' life - do you still think it's possible to enjoy aspects of it, and if so - how??

Yes. Some of the enjoyment feels like a pyhrric victory at times, but I can and do enjoy a little of every day and nothing I've said is meant to say that I don't. I enjoyed my morning latte today, I enjoyed the conversation with my fiancee on the way into Chicago today on a mutual errand, and I am enjoying this kick-ass MacBook Air that I bought recently which, in conjunction with my 4G cellular modem, makes dipping into work (and, as you can see, not-work) a pleasure and gives my life the flexibility I need to be able to juggle my professional and personal life without feeling so much pressure.

 

That doesn't mean that when I'm not distracted by such things that I'm ever completely unaware that my life, as a general proposition, has long since gone to shit -- or that I feel any real security in these ephemeral blessings I randomly encounter. But yes, it makes life "endurable", to be sure.

[DesertBob]

I expect people to value my soul the way I value theirs. That is always my first mistake.

 

Perhaps if you just instead found pleasure when someone else surprisingly enjoys your soul it too will give you pleasure, while the rest is all just default. I enjoy your soul, my friend.

 

DB wrote:

 

OMG -- what. you. said. Boy, does that hit the nail on the head.

 

I enjoy your's too.

:-)

[DesertBob]

I often wonder what "process" (if that is what one would call it) allows for a reconnection with the naturally occurring salubrious experiences I expect to exist in life?

Is this a rhetorical question? And where is the "re" in "reconnection"? I'm not sure my life has ever been truly "salubrious".

Am I wrong in thinking that the learned expectation of relief in the future enhances the ability to tolerate more intense affect in the midst of the stressful moment? Is relief too much to expect? Is a simple satisfaction with my life out of the question?

Apparently :-\\

I too have "adapted!" It's a hollow victory! For me to "adapt" was one result of my "understanding." To end up with a psychological explanation for problems that remain unchanged is what psychotherapy calls the "booby prize."

On the other hand, catharsis without cognition (understanding) does not result in integration either.

Agreed ...

Can I "reshape" my brain? Regain salubrious experiences and know, at least,"relief?" It "ain't" easy but it is possible!

Of course you can reshape your brain. I have realized in recent years that life refuses to submit to my ministrations, so I have to submit to it. There is no other way. I have adapted and reshaped to the point where I am quite sure my 18 year old self, passing through a time portal, would not recognize my 54 year old self. At all. And still the process is not done. It is apparently endless. Who knew that I would never be able to be myself and live my own life -- that I would have to invent an avatar to live it in my stead!

Take a look at the research and clinical experience that support the existence of the brain's multiple memory systems, each with its own domains of learning, neural architecture, development, and developmental timetable.

 

I'm sixty-four and plagued "by the meaning of it all," but the smell of moist air before a summer thunderstorm still brings expectations of relief form parched grass, cracked soil and a weary "heart."

 

I've shed most of my youthful expectations but the relief that silence and peace bring still abide in the depths of my being! The total absurdity of it all matters little. And when the flow of life stops, it will only mean that I can't hold another drop of life!

 

The insanity has lessened! The brain can be sculpted!

I am not quite sure what you are saying, saner, but appreciate that some degree of equanimity appears to have been achieved in your life. It gives me a little something to aim for.

 

--Bob

[DesertBob]

One thing that might help is to start with the recognition of personality types. The sort of work you do suits that personality type. Why you got involved in fundamentalism must have suited something to that as well. How our personalities are suited to look at the world will influence the choices we make and the beliefs we gravitate to. All I am saying is that to understand these are personality characteristics allows us to stand back a bit from them to see reality a bit more objectively. Keep going in standing back from it, to the point you see yourself as yet one more color in that rainbow, not the ground of it.

Well of course I am not the be-all and end-all. Just a color in a rainbow. I get that. But that IS what I am, and that defines what I need from life in order to be fulfilled. I can (and do) stand back, and be objective and not take it personally that I'm not fulfilled ... but that does not really help more than about 10%. Nor would I expect it to. It's the old story of understanding the reasons but not ever getting practical answers.

Then quit it! Fall backward in the Abyss.

Whatever that means. Of course, we all fall into the Abyss sooner or later anyway.

[Margee]

Here comes another crazy question...........

Even if one is 'enduring' life - do you still think it's possible to enjoy aspects of it, and if so - how??

Yes. Some of the enjoyment feels like a pyhrric victory at times, but I can and do enjoy a little of every day and nothing I've said is meant to say that I don't. I enjoyed my morning latte today, I enjoyed the conversation with my fiancee on the way into Chicago today on a mutual errand, and I am enjoying this kick-ass MacBook Air that I bought recently which, in conjunction with my 4G cellular modem, makes dipping into work (and, as you can see, not-work) a pleasure and gives my life the flexibility I need to be able to juggle my professional and personal life without feeling so much pressure.

 

That doesn't mean that when I'm not distracted by such things that I'm ever completely unaware that my life, as a general proposition, has long since gone to shit -- or that I feel any real security in these ephemeral blessings I randomly encounter. But yes, it makes life "endurable", to be sure.

 

Bob - this is all good what you say. I also am lucky to have a job that is very flexible. I think the thing that REALLY gets to me at this 'stage of the game', is there is always so much to do, outside of work. That is why I am trying so hard to simplify my life. It seems that the 'obligations' never stop. I would rather be enjoying bike riding, walking in the park, reading or even posting here - without the feeling that I am neglecting all the other 'things', including family. But, I suppose this would fall right in with what I said about' acceptance'. ''It is what it is'' I just do wish sometimes, it could be different!!

 

I'm fighting myself again, trying to make things a different way, when........all of this, is part of life.

[DesertBob]

Bob - this is all good what you say. I also am lucky to have a job that is very flexible. I think the thing that REALLY gets to me at this 'stage of the game', is there is always so much to do, outside of work. That is why I am trying so hard to simplify my life. It seems that the 'obligations' never stop. I would rather be enjoying bike riding, walking in the park, reading or even posting here - without the feeling that I am neglecting all the other 'things', including family. But, I suppose this would fall right in with what I said about' acceptance'. ''It is what it is'' I just do wish sometimes, it could be different!!

 

I'm fighting myself again, trying to make things a different way, when........all of this, is part of life.

There is no harm in trying to simplify as much as possible. I'm definitely in the process of that, although to realize it somewhat fully will take most of the next 2 years at least. It involves selling stuff that I don't need, but which takes time to sell into an economy like this -- the three homes we own between ourselves (hers, my old one in AZ, and a rental townhome left over from her husband's estate -- all will be sold at a paper loss and two of them slightly underwater); my theater organ (may have to just donate the thing), excess furnishings to permit us to move into probably a 1200 square foot apartment someplace, etc. Not to mention what the kids will leave behind when they go to college and yet will be offended if it gets pitched. I see a storage locker in my future.

 

Sometimes reducing complexity is, itself, complex. Just keep forging through it systematically; eventually it works out.

[Rev R]

So this whole Zen idea of letting go of desire and expectations just does not seem to me to be something to be sought after, so much as accepted as a necessity in some situations.

 

An interesting way to look at it Bob and I think you may be on to something. Some of the old men have said that one should pursue the way as if one's hair were on fire. Whether or not it is literally true that letting go is necessary in some situations, finding that it is necessary can provide substantial motivation to cultivate the mind that is capable of letting go.

 

However, it bears mentioning that desire is simply part of being human. What we seek freedom from is desire bound by greed, hatred, or ignorance.

[Noggy]

However, it bears mentioning that desire is simply part of being human. What we seek freedom from is desire bound by greed, hatred, or ignorance.

 

Or we seek freedom from being human.

[Antlerman]

Then quit it! Fall backward in the Abyss.

Whatever that means. Of course, we all fall into the Abyss sooner or later anyway.

Actually no. Many or most spend their entire lives avoiding it, looking for substitutes to give them some bit of fulfillment in order to distract themselves from it. And for some they will enjoy some modest success distracting themselves all the way till the end of their lives. They were content to just live as they were, not really going deep, nor terribly high. For others, those distractions will be continually torn down leaving them feel unfulfilled, unhappy, and sapped. This comes straight back to my other discussion with you about those Projects, and in this case the Atman Project.

 

Falling back into the Abyss is the surrender of all these substitute projects into the face of the Void, into Nothingness. The end of self. The end of all we amass and build up to define ourselves and try to give meaning to that edifice called "me".

 

What you quoted before about Zen that Rev R offered some clarification on is just this. It's giving up alright, but not in resignation, but in surrender. You die. You cease to be. And in that act of falling into that Abyss of Nothingness, you find the Self. It is release from all the projects, all the struggles to find meaning. You become the sunset, not just enjoy it in your shell as a temporary relief. Suffering is everything we do to avoid that.

[Rev R]

Or we seek freedom from being human.

 

That will only end in tears.

[Noggy]

Or we seek freedom from being human.

 

That will only end in tears.

 

Really? I'd say the bondage we experience as being human is not real at all. I think there is an entirely different definition placed to "being human", than what "being human" actually entails.

 

That is, what we think is "being human" and what is actually "being human" are not the same thing.

 

We just need to realize it.

[Rev R]

Really? I'd say the bondage we experience as being human is not real at all.

What bondage? Show me your chains.

 

I think there is an entirely different definition placed to "being human", than what "being human" actually entails.

This is called "dukkha".

[Noggy]

Really? I'd say the bondage we experience as being human is not real at all.

What bondage? Show me your chains.

 

*points to things*

 

 

 

[Rev R]

But Noggy, you just said "the bondage we experience isn't real at all". Yet you point to "things" as being that which bind us. Which is it?

 

Are we bound and need to be free or are we free and just don't realize it?

[DesertBob]

... it bears mentioning that desire is simply part of being human. What we seek freedom from is desire bound by greed, hatred, or ignorance.

Ah, so all desire is not ... er ... undesirable? That is an interesting and useful clarification. Although I do not believe any of my remaining desires are motivated by greed, hatred or ignorance. Although by definition I suppose you can never be sure of that last one ;-)

[DesertBob]

Actually no. Many or most spend their entire lives avoiding it ...

Well I was speaking of the fact that we all experience dissolution, voluntarily or not, at the end of the metaphorical day. No one avoids death.

Falling back into the Abyss is the surrender of all these substitute projects into the face of the Void, into Nothingness. The end of self. The end of all we amass and build up to define ourselves and try to give meaning to that edifice called "me".

You make finding meaning and figuring out who we are sound so evil. Some would say we should make meaning, and celebrate who we are.

 

Regardless, if you are correct, the universe has done a fair job of disassembling me and I see the end of self as the coming endpoint.

What you quoted before about Zen that Rev R offered some clarification on is just this. It's giving up alright, but not in resignation, but in surrender.

It is paradoxical that you are expected to surrender to an order of things that has not been a source of reassurance, stability or, as asanerman likes to say, salubrious experiences. (God, I love that word, "salubrious". Haven't heard or used it in ages).

You die. You cease to be. And in that act of falling into that Abyss of Nothingness, you find the Self. It is release from all the projects, all the struggles to find meaning. You become the sunset, not just enjoy it in your shell as a temporary relief. Suffering is everything we do to avoid that.

Ah. So this is a universal uber-self, the same for you, me, or anyone? That seems like a curious arrangement. If that is what the universe wants, why does it bother with all us in-duh-viduals? Don't we simply gum up the works for it? Why would you or I even need to come into existence? Why not cut to the chase and take our consciousness and put it in one place to begin with?

[Rev R]

... it bears mentioning that desire is simply part of being human. What we seek freedom from is desire bound by greed, hatred, or ignorance.

Ah, so all desire is not ... er ... undesirable? That is an interesting and useful clarification. Although I do not believe any of my remaining desires are motivated by greed, hatred or ignorance. Although be definition I suppose you can never be sure of that last one ;-)

 

A peg to hang a hat on.

[Noggy]

But Noggy, you just said "the bondage we experience isn't real at all". Yet you point to "things" as being that which bind us. Which is it?

 

Are we bound and need to be free or are we free and just don't realize it?

 

The second one. Hence, the bondage not being real.

[Rev R]

and what does it take to realize this?

[Noggy]

and what does it take to realize this?

 

Well, the bondage is all in your head. It's passions. Passions that are in human nature, but still not beneficial at all. Passions over things that don't really exist. Which is all of it, eh? What actually exists that won't take another form at a later date?

 

But I'm not so sure how true this is. Or how helpful :/

[Antlerman]

Actually no. Many or most spend their entire lives avoiding it ...

Well I was speaking of the fact that we all experience dissolution, voluntarily or not, at the end of the metaphorical day. No one avoids death.

I know you were. I wasn't. There's a huge difference between physical death and this.

 

Falling back into the Abyss is the surrender of all these substitute projects into the face of the Void, into Nothingness. The end of self. The end of all we amass and build up to define ourselves and try to give meaning to that edifice called "me".

You make finding meaning and figuring out who we are sound so evil. Some would say we should make meaning, and celebrate who we are.

Not at all. It's not evil, but necessary, healthy, and good. You cannot transcend what you've never yet realized. You can't take ego and become self-actualized and beyond without first developing an ego in the first place.

 

Regardless, if you are correct, the universe has done a fair job of disassembling me and I see the end of self as the coming endpoint.

Or you have for yourself. Have you ever considered this is something you're bringing yourself to for some reason within? Two people going through identical circumstance will process them according to something internal in themselves. I can't begin to tell you how I hear your angst.

 

What you quoted before about Zen that Rev R offered some clarification on is just this. It's giving up alright, but not in resignation, but in surrender.

It is paradoxical that you are expected to surrender to an order of things that has not been a source of reassurance, stability or, as asanerman likes to say, salubrious experiences.

You know, yes. Yes it seems so. I think we have enough taste in life though to know it is an infinite well. It's those moments peaking through, that we let through, or the sneak through while we're not busy looking. Go into silence and just simply listen without expectation.

 

You die. You cease to be. And in that act of falling into that Abyss of Nothingness, you find the Self. It is release from all the projects, all the struggles to find meaning. You become the sunset, not just enjoy it in your shell as a temporary relief. Suffering is everything we do to avoid that.

Ah. So this is a universal uber-self, the same for you, me, or anyone? That seems like a curious arrangement.

Well, no so curious when you realize how we are all from that same source. Look at our biology for goodness sake, you think we are that different? What differs is processing it through our cultures and our personalities in how we put a face to it, a word to it, but the experience is the same.

 

If that is what the universe wants, why does it bother with all us in-duh-viduals? Don't we simply gum up the works for it? Why would you or I even need to come into existence? Why not cut to the chase and take our consciousness and put it in one place to begin with?

I loved Rev R's response to this! Call it whatever your theology likes to. A game, a play, a dance, Spirit hiding itself and rediscovering itself. Whatever. Myself, I try to understand it as an expression of the Divine in creation and disclosure. None of it really is an understanding of it though. Awareness with the shingles removed from our eyes into the depth and purity of all being that is us. That is to me, the ultimate state of our humanity. Not this junk we try to hold onto here as meaningful. It's our Buddha Nature. Our Divine Mind. Our true Nature. Not so far away actually. But right here.

[Galien]

Firstly Antler, thank you for your beautiful soul music. I can't make my own so I steal Rimsky-Korsakov's Sheherazade or Limp Bizkit's Break Stuff, depending what day it is.

 

I have never seen myself as an edifice, apart from maybe those pictures in Bali last year...............Seriously I have always felt like a pimple on the ass of humanity as is often the case for the neurotic and depressed. I often sit on the edge of the abyss and chuck rocks in whilst contemplating the cosmic all. All I can really come up with is that a lot of people are children who do not want to grow up and face responsibility, especially the responsbility of telling themselves the truth about who they are.

 

I have never been able to distract myself from the suffering in the world, to cover it with substances or distract myself with activities. It is in my face. I don't have a nervous breakdown over it anymore but I am constantly aware of how many hungry and dispossesed people there are in the world. I know how lucky I am to live in Australia every day. I can't fix it all but I wish I could. I don't understand why THE WORLD as a whole doesn't want to fix it, but is too busy being distracted to hear the cries of the hungry.

 

As far as what Bob said about being overweight then being suprised that people found him disgusting, what I find disgusting is that peopole have the bloody gall to think they have the right to judge in the first place. I would rather be overweight anyday than the kind of person who thinks it is okay to treat other people that way. What a pack of assholes. It has long puzzled me that things like looks and intelligence and even thinness are things people take credit for and use as an excuse to look down on other people. Too many smart pretty thin people around as it is, but sadly not smart enough to understand the difference between a genetic gift and a personal achievement.

 

Margee, I do enjoy things at times, sex in particular. I also love my cappacinos and playing second life. Don't mind my job either.

[Galien]

I expect people to value my soul the way I value theirs. That is always my first mistake.

 

I just thought this was very interesting since it is so different from the way I view other people. I never, from at least age 13, have thought, much less expected, other people would value me in any way. When I perceive that they might, this is always almost like a shock- its suspicious- and I never like too much attention paid to me.

 

I can't say that I "value" most people except in the general way that I think life is valuable. Certainly I value my parents and others that have helped me. Mostly, I have never wanted to hurt anyone.

 

I always took my idea of what love is from the bible, and if you read it, it is a pretty tall order. Agape love is selfless love really. Most people only get as far as eros (romantic love) or philos (Friendship). In my amplified bible the first verse of 1st corinthians 14 says "make this love your aim, your great quest". So I did So, I grew up with the impression that the love I have for people actually came from god, because I didn't think myself capable of such a thing. I also always thought that this was required of me by god as a very basic part of my faith, as in not a choice but a command. I always thought that this kind of love was about valuing the soul of the other person.

 

I also thought in my deep seated naiveity that all christians (and probably everyone else) believed this and practised it. Yes, yes I know Im a fucking idiot but I have programmed myself to be this way, and I think after fifty years its is going to be a very hard habit to break. It was only five years ago that I discovered that not everyone thinks this way. Live in a bubble much??