God's Plan for US

[Disco Stu]

Since xtians believe that god has a plan for us why are they against abortion? Wouldn't god's plan for that child to be aborted? When someone gets thier head bashed in witha baseball bat that must be god's will. Or when someone is dying in agony for years that must be god's will again. If god does have a plan for everybody, why do we need laws? All people's actions were a part of god vast eternal plan. More contridictions in xtianity

[Vixentrox]

Good point. And if they belive little babies go to heaven automatically, they should be pro-abortion, all those little souls getting free ticket to heaven.

[Java]

Cognitive dissonance at its best. I guess the point is, if they can break down the mind to make no sense in these things, they can make them do anything.

[Reach]

God has a plan for everybody?

 

For those who die early or young, in pain and suffering, was that God's plan?

 

Tragic accidents, the victims of heineous crimes, torture, hellacious weather related incidents and natural disasters. That was God's plan?

 

Consignment to Heaven or hell; the Bible tells us that that was God's plan.

 

Disco Stu, nice to see you finally made it here. It's been awhile.

[SOIL]

God has a plan for everybody?

 

For those who die early or young, in pain and suffering, was that God's plan?

 

Tragic accidents, the victims of heineous crimes, torture, hellacious weather related incidents and natural disasters. That was God's plan?

...

The concept of "die early" assumes we are the ones who know the appropriate time for someone to die. I don't think God originally desired for any human to die - however, God changed the original and best plan - when we humans used our free will to rebel against the source who gave us life - the very God who chose to give us the dignity of possessing a free will.

 

God is powerful enough however, to change the plan - every time a human's free will requires such a change - in order to help bring about good (for any humans who will accept God's help) in order that eventually, when the "big picture" is completely and comprehensively considered, we will see "God's plan" does in fact involve our good. ( I think eternity is something we have not yet factored in to our currently less than comprehensive big-picture views).

 

I don't think human good is the ultimate driving purpose behind "God's plan" however. I think the glorification of that which is truly worthy is more along those lines.

 

The same free will that was once used foolishly by us humans to reject God - now needs to be used (IMHO anyway) instead, to accept "God's revised plan" which involves helping to bring all things back into conformance with God's original (and best) plan.

 

Concerning "pain and suffering": when I consider the fact that God himself (while He was living in Jesus' human body on this sin-cursed earth) experienced much "pain and suffering", I learn God's revised plan can and does involve both pain and suffering for humans (and really all life on this sin-cursed planet).

 

I think God's plan involves helping people return to the understanding that it is only through embracing our creator that we can experience the original "God's plan" type of abundant life. Though we can experience a down payment taste of that quality of life while living on earth (in our physical bodies) - even at best, during the short span of our life we live in this world (when we factor in the concept that we are alive for eternity), we can only "see through a glass darkly" while here. However, some of us have a blessed hope for a day to come, when in our new spiritual body we will see God "face to face".

 

(Incidentally, I think that very hope is one of the inspirations for the joyful music we Christians love to experience in worship.)

 

-Dennis

[quicksand]

Morning Dennis.

 

Um, I don't get it. Sorry.

 

You state that "God revised the plan" to suit humanities freewill?

 

So, whose plan is it? Ours, or His?

 

Mr. God seems to be in a reactionary position here – one step behind us at most times, since freewill has many options in very redux terms so to speak.

 

• Quick

[SOIL]

...

So, whose plan is it? Ours, or His?

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes

 

Hi Quick,

 

One of the most disturbing things (in my twisted way of thinking) was that the perfect God would allow us humans to get to do some stuff on our own (i.e. using our free will, and hence getting to influence the way the plan actually unfolds). I don't personally like the fact that sometimes when I use my free will I can hurt another person - I wish God would protect others from me - but sadly, sometimes other people do experience pain because of me.

 

It amazes me that God can work, using what I may have intended to cause pain - and change things around, so that in the end good pops out. (e.g. consider Joseph's words about what his brothers had intended for evil).

 

If I were God, I would think my love for humanity would necessitate that I keep people from hurting each other - by limiting the potential effects of their free will - in an attempt to keep bad people from hurting good ones (i.e. assuming some good ones actually do exist after the age of accountability!). However, I am not God - and it appears God has chosen to share free will with people, as well as the ability to influence the grand "plan". Maybe God's love for people does necessitate giving us the dignity and significance associated with free will?.

 

Free will is a double-edged sword. Not only can we use it to hurt other people, but the "good news" side of the story is: - we can help people! - and when we choose to help, true worth and honor is present (which I suppose might not be as possible, if the reverse ability to hurt people were not also a viable option).

 

Ultimately the power and love of God will bring all things into conformance with His will - (at least I think so anyway). At this point in the 'His-story' of humanity - it looks to me anyway - as if both God and human's plans are somehow working together - so in order to understand reality on planet earth, one needs at least some elemental knowledge of the plans of God, Satan, and humans (because I think there are basically three types of "plans" currently in operation on this planet).

 

Sorry - but I gotta go quickly - (I assume having called yourself "Quick" you can understand).

 

-Dennis

[Vixentrox]

Saying god changed his plan means an admission of imperfection and lack of the all-knowing skill. Chaning plans means he made a mistake in the original plan, or something happened he didn't forsee.

[SOIL]

Saying god changed his plan means an admission of imperfection and lack of the all-knowing skill.  Chaning plans means he made a mistake in the original plan, or something happened he didn't forsee.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not if his original plan was to be able to change his plans!

 

(Hi Vixentrox!)

 

-Dennis

[Vixentrox]

There wouldn't be a need to change plans if he already knew the whole outcome of things.

[quicksand]

Yes

 

Hi Quick,

 

One of the most disturbing things (in my twisted way of thinking) was that the perfect God would allow us humans to get to do some stuff on our own (i.e. using our free will, and hence getting to influence the way the plan actually unfolds)....

 

It amazes me that God can work, using what I may have intended to cause pain - and change things around, so that in the end good pops out.  (e.g. consider Joseph's words about what his brothers had intended for evil).

 

If I were God, I would think my love for humanity would necessitate that I keep people from hurting each other - by limiting the potential effects of their free will - in an attempt to keep bad people from hurting good ones ....

 

Free will is a double-edged sword...

 

Ultimately the power and love of God will bring all things....

-Dennis

Yes? Yes to both conditions? Accordingly, it's both God's Plan and Our Plan?

 

When I "use" my freewill I am only reacting to whatever choices that as person must make in order to survive. Thus, I really don't have an overarching and all-encompassing plan that includes every detail or manifest of expected and unexpected problems that I will face. We adjust our plans when a new roadblock is thrown in our way – otherwise we will be homeless or dead meat.

 

You talk about God's Plan, it seems to me, that he has to adjust accordingly to the roadblocks that the use of our freewill necessitates. I will say, he's sounds just as helpless as us in this case.

 

I had to chuckle a bit at this "I wish God would protect others from me - but sadly, sometimes other people do experience pain because of me.' Sometimes me too, but again, we have to take responsibility for our decisions regardless. God is left off of his responsibilities for just about everything. Well, except for love and soft-cushie things.

 

To me, the way you describe God's plan, Our Plan, Satan's Plan, seems were like all in the same boat trying to navigate as best we can through the chop. Since this is the case, then how can God be all-powerful (with revising his plan) Satan that evil (cause he's on the row-boat like us) and us that different? How do you know that since there has been at least one revision (Jesus) that current revision has run its course and humanity is ready to move on without religion? We have much better tools and a greater knowledge of the world and universe and of ourselves and even the the qualia is just a number of neuro-chemical reactions to be enumerated. We're all capable and incapable of the same things and poor Satan always get's the dump.

 

 

Here's a question, would God stop us nuking ourselves before the balance of His concurrent plan ran out?

[atheist_thinker]

Why give "free will" in the 1st place if he wanted all the worship him?

Im not buying it.

[white_raven23]

Yes

 

Hi Quick,

 

One of the most disturbing things (in my twisted way of thinking) was that the perfect God would allow us humans to get to do some stuff on our own (i.e. using our free will, and hence getting to influence the way the plan actually unfolds). I don't personally like the fact that sometimes when I use my free will I can hurt another person - I wish God would protect others from me - but sadly, sometimes other people do experience pain because of me.

 

 

 

Hi SOIL,

 

I'm a little saddened that you feel guilt and fear in association with free will. Even to the point that you feel disturbed that the God you believe in granted it.

 

If you'll allow a minor parallel, that's a lot like wishing the government would take more action in our individual lives in the hopes of improving the quality and peace of the population majority.

 

Ever read 1984?

 

And what do you think this sense of insecurity about your free will does to your self-esteem as a whole?

 

What would be the point of life if we were just babysat the whole way? Religion is like a surrogate parent. A mentally and emotionally abusive parent to boot.

 

And yes, life is harder without guidance. But the lessons we learn, both good and bad serve to make us more developed people in the long run.

 

Life without learning would truly be asinine and pointless.

[SOIL]

...

Here's a question, would God stop us nuking ourselves before the balance of His concurrent plan ran out?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Quick, I think that is a great question - and I think God has most likely already stopped us "nuking ourselves".

 

I also suspect that God has already stopped us from letting some more smallpox loose (and/or various more potent human engineered strains of mutated diseases).

 

Reading here on the ex-c site, I have seen how people "of faith" can sometimes get way out of control - and I think the data shows most of the world's peoples profess some sort of faith. Of course fundamentalist types are traditionally the ones that are most feared - and there are certainly a bunch of folks who fit that bill - who unfortunately have access to some very dangerous stuff.

 

Of course the will to control people has also been involved when big mistakes have been made - where we thought we could control something that we really shouldn't have been messing with in the first place (I'm thinking here about germ warfare types of things)

 

Sorry, but my brain has decided to go into coast mode.

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

Why give "free will" in the 1st place if he wanted all the worship him?

Im not buying it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hi AT,

 

Well I guess if God does enjoy people worshiping him - then the fact that robots were worshiping would almost make the 'W' word pretty much meaningless wouldn't it?

 

Actually though - I think the worshiper (in the case of humans worshiping God) gains as much as the one who is worshiped.

 

-Dennis

[Cerise]

Well first of all bullshit. I had to get that out of the way, it was killing me to hold it in.

 

It amazes me that God can work, using what I may have intended to cause pain - and change things around, so that in the end good pops out.

 

It's also amazing how it doesn't seem to work all the time. And by it I mean God. And by God I mean that illusive psycho being who likes to play Where's Waldo whenever bad shit without resolution happens.

 

Maybe God's love for people does necessitate giving us the dignity and significance associated with free will?

 

Maybe God isn't capable of love. Maybe there's no such thing as "free will" and it's a buzz word you made up. The net value of maybe? 0

 

Ultimately the power and love of God will bring all things into conformance with His will

 

Which I guess will negate that whole having free will thing, eh? Good luck with your drone-ness in Heaven.

 

The same free will  that was once used foolishly by us humans to reject God

 

How can it be foolish if it were part of the plan? Are you calling God a fool, Dennis?

[SOIL]

Hi white_raven23,

 

I'm a little saddened that you feel guilt and fear in association with free will. Even to the point that you feel disturbed that the God you believe in granted it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, well what can I say - I remember reading the front of passing T-shirt the other day, it simply read "I have issues"!

 

If you'll allow a minor parallel, that's a lot like wishing the government would take more action in our individual lives in the hopes of improving the quality and peace of the population majority.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I am hoping God could be a bit more wise and loving than even our government.

 

And what do you think this sense of insecurity about your free will does to your self-esteem as a whole?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good question, actually like I mentioned, in many ways I consider free will like a two edged sword. The side that helps my self-esteem is the fact that I am capable of doing honorable things. The side that hurts my self-esteem is the fact that I sometimes choose to do dishonorable things. I don't mind so much that I am robbing myself of possible honor when I am don't use my free will to make good choices - but it really bugs me when I cause pain to other people.

 

I suppose if I would just accept the good heart God wants to give me (involving the Holy Spirit), then I would end up with better self-esteem.

 

What would be the point of life if we were just babysat the whole way? ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said - I agree.

 

And yes, life is harder without guidance. But the lessons we learn, both good and bad serve to make us more developed people in the long run.

 

Life without learning would truly be asinine and pointless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think we can still learn lessons even when we do accept guidance.

 

Maybe God wants "more developed people" and maybe that is why he chose to give us free will?

 

-Dennis

[♦ nivek ♦]

Dennis,

 

Not to many hours ago a lady friend and student of my Handgun Training and Firearms School defended her life against three foully intended attackers in her rural home.

 

I'll say it up front, "too fucking bad she hadn't time to properly aim better and rid Earth of three verminskum"".... One she got lead into is gonna be *ain't quite right the rest of his life (shortened i sure hope)*, the other two got some serious asswhacking from a little ldy that isn't more than 115 uS pounds soaking wet and no more than 5-3..

 

As to "God's Plan"? Some fucking God amigo, one that plans the inimate disaster of rape, pain and pillage to a lady whose only *crime* is her sexual preference and her desire to live well away from the religious_rightists who drove her from her work in the City...

 

Some fucking God.. glad in that *plan* she made the choice to overcome years of shitty thinking and take up her own defence.

 

It is said out here in rural bumforkedorYgunn that "Six beats Sixty". In this case God sure wasn't at his damn Help Desk when the "misguided youths" took on a lady who had trained to survive "God's best and worst"..

 

I aim a thick beer piss on the notion that God does shit in the world around us..

 

n, nothing personal amigo, but "god" is a pipedream for the weak needing *something*

[SOIL]

...Ultimately the power and love of God will bring all things into conformance with His will ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which I guess will negate that whole having free will thing, eh?  Good luck with your drone-ness in Heaven.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point Cerise, it looks like you still know how to keep me thinking!

 

Actually, I suppose I should have qualified my statement - ultimately God will bring most everything in conformance with his will outside of hell . Perhaps hell will be reserved as the place where people finally get on stage alone and sing (allegro?) "I did it my way", while Satan chuckles in the shadows.

 

...................

 

...The same free will  that was once used foolishly by us humans to reject God ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How can it be foolish if it were part of the plan?  Are you calling God a fool, Dennis?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When I used the word "foolishly" I was thinking about myself primarily. I don't think it was foolish for God to allow people to have free will (which of necessity involves the possibility that I might make a choice against my best interest which could also hurt another person - hence, by my definition: "foolish".

 

God has given people a tremendous amount of responsibility to help each other. Even the process of writing (and preserving) the Bible has been principally done by humans. (As I have mentioned before - Jesus did not write the New Testament).

 

Also, I think God expects people like me to tell other people about what he has made available to "whosoever will". After all, it is not written (in every language) by God across the sky (though I think the apostle Paul did mention something about how the conscious of each person is something God has provided to help us know he exists).

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

Dennis,

 

Not to many hours ago a lady friend and student of my Handgun Training and Firearms School defended her life against three foully intended attackers in her rural home.

...

As to "God's Plan"?  Some fucking God amigo, one that plans the inimate disaster of rape, pain and pillage to a lady whose only *crime* is her sexual preference and her desire to live well away from the religious_rightists who drove her from her work in the City...

...

 

I aim a thick beer piss on the notion that God does shit in the world around us..

 

n, nothing personal amigo, but "god" is a pipedream for the weak needing *something*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hi Nivek,

 

I understand where you are coming from.

 

To tell you the truth, I think you may have been - an arm of God - when you showed the little lady how to protect herself from those who planned to hurt her. I think you can probably remember some of the things I have written concerning how I think God is concerned that justice is done. Sounds like one of those three has learned a bit about justice already - hopefully the other two will be learning more as well.

 

I (legally) own several guns myself and I purchased them and have learned to use them because I think God does not have a problem with me protecting my family or myself (via the use of lethal force) if that is what I decide to use my free will to choose.

 

I don't think God planned the pillage of the lady - sounds like the three attackers (maybe with a bit of help from satan?) were planning that however - I am glad that plan was changed - and like I say, maybe God was involved and doing some work through his unaware servant - Nivek!

 

If I decide to get more involved in the Justice side of serving God (like my hero Gary Haugin for instance) I might just need to look you up to help me as I try to allow myself to also be "used of God"!

 

I do admire Gary Haugen, because even though he does advocate using violence (when it is the only way to keep justice happening) - he tries to work with the police - since he thinks God has established government to use force as a way to keep wickedness in check.

 

-Dennis

[Cerise]

When in doubt blame Satan. Dennis haven't you figured it out by now? Your God is Satan. You can't have an ominpotent, omniscient being cut off from another, more powerful demonic being trying to screw up the works. If Satan does anything, if he even sneezes, you can bet your ass it's because God made it possible for him to sneeze. You can't say "Oh well, Satan is responsible for the evil and God is responsible for the good" without turning your God into something weaker then you supposedly think a God should be.

 

Can you not see the paradox?

[♦ ficino ♦]

Dennis, Christian doctrine entails that all events have God as their first cause. There is no little corner of the cosmos, not even at the inmost recess of the human will, where God is not sovereign. God does not adjust any plan, achieve good out of human muck-ups of His plan, or anything such. He ordains, he's first cause of all events. end of story.

 

Christian doctrine entails that the suffering FOREVER of rational creatures glorifies God. the saints rejoice at the sufferings inflicted by God on those who do not bow to God's absolute sway. end of story.

 

So all that is part of the Plan. The plan included Hell from before the foundation of creation. My mind reels that people still talk about God as loving, etc. It's like a Soviet citizen freezing in the gulag calling Joseph Stalin loving -- and believing it with all his heart!

 

I can't see how the above does not hold.

[Fweethawt]

I think the first commandment should be,

"Thou shall not smoke crack".

 

That's the only way that I can see why they

come up with explanations like these, they

have to be smokin' some of the most potent

form of crack that has ever been made.

 

 

When God fails, he didn't fail. It was just Satan

throwing a wrench into his plan?!?

 

Tis weak. Tis weak indeed.

 

[Asimov]

I think the first commandment should be,

"Thou shall not smoke crack".

 

That's the only way that I can see why they

come up with explanations like these, they

have to be smokin' some of the most potent

form of crack that has ever been made.

When God fails, he didn't fail. It was just Satan

throwing a wrench into his plan?!? 

 

Tis weak. Tis weak indeed. 

 

 

Allow me to sum up Fwee's post:

 

*whiny voice* "But I DID do my homework, my dog just ate it!!"

[quicksand]

Quick, I think that is a great question - and I think God has most likely already stopped us "nuking ourselves".

 

I also suspect that God has already stopped us from letting some more smallpox loose (and/or various more potent human engineered strains of mutated diseases).

 

Reading here on the ex-c site, I have seen how people "of faith" can sometimes get way out of control - and I think the data shows most of the world's peoples profess some sort of faith. Of course fundamentalist types are traditionally the ones that are most feared - and there are certainly a bunch of folks who fit that bill - who unfortunately have access to some very dangerous stuff. 

 

Of course the will to control people has also been involved when big mistakes have been made - where we thought we could control something that we really shouldn't have been messing with in the first place (I'm thinking here about germ warfare types of things)

 

Sorry, but my brain has decided to go into coast mode.

 

-Dennis

Dennis,

 

What gets me about all this is how you know God so well and his plans. Man, I hear this everyday. The 24-7 365 preachers on TBN, the other christian channel, and our local Christian Station, blathering on and on and on how they know God's plan and will and desires. Much less, the various Sunday sermons littered all over the dial.

 

I have to guffaw at that.

 

These people have no idea what my dreams, plans and desires are so how in their right mind can make a determination of what God dreams, plans and desires are? From the Bible? You know the inherent difficulties from arguing the Bible, anyone can negate an assertion from the Bible with the Bible and cloak it into any interpretation they want.

 

Silliness.

 

When I hear you talk about God's Plans all I really see is the man behind those glasses Dennis. Which in my estimation, makes you a caring person. So from now, when you say God, I am just going to put Dennis there instead.

 

-Quick