God's Plan for US

[SOIL]

This is strange - I thought I had already posted the stuff below - but I don't see it here now - so here goes ... yet again.

...

...

When I hear you talk about God's Plans all I really see is the man behind those glasses Dennis. Which in my estimation, makes you a caring person. So from now, when you say God, I am just going to put Dennis there instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quick,

 

Actually I have been doing that same thing for years - but it hasn't really made me all that much happier! I am kind of disappointing when I try to play the God role.

 

I suppose (from a Christian perspective) there is a sense in which the Spirit of God is living inside me and as such (being a member of the body of Christ) my hands can do some of the things that God wants done.

 

What gets me about all this is how you know God so well and his plans. ...

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I understand your irritation. I (unlike many of the folks I hang around with) have been very hesitant to claim I have some kind of a "personal relationship" with God. I do feel what I will refer to as 'spiritual leanings' when I read the Bible, and when I fellowship with others who claim they experience God on a personal level, and when I pray and worship. These "leanings" seem to impress me that God does exist and that I will be rewarded if I seek to know Him and that hurting people need to be helped (by me - since God cares about them and He is in some sense living in my body and wants to use me to help others).

 

As far as knowing you is concerned - you are very correct - I don't know any specifics about your "dreams, plans and desires" but to be honest with you, I don't feel like there is any part of your Spirit living inside me (other than the common aspects that we are both people and hence in one sense "family").

 

Sometimes in the case of my wife (with whom I have been becoming "one flesh" now for over 30 years). I seem to feel (a little) like I can feel at least some of my wife's "dreams, plans and desires" - but in a strange way, one that I don't really know if I can effectively communicate - I sense I can know some about God's "dreams, plans and desires" even better than I can those of even my wife. I think there must be something about God's Spirit living inside me that facilitates this phenomenon.

 

-Dennis

[atheist_thinker]

As far as relgion goes is that you do your on thing and we do our own thing, right? As long as it's within respectable limits of the golden rule. I got know problem with people needing something more as long as it does not over flow into the political arena and the public school system. If your "gods' plan is to turn the country into a ulta-conservative saudi style of government then we will as surely go back down the road of witch burnings and inquisitional prosicution. What is your goal?

 

Our liberties can be easily modifed by who ever is in a position of power via one's interpreted of the bible. All it takes is to have a larg misguided population and a couple of people in the wrong places to set us back a hundred years.

[SOIL]

As far as relgion goes is that you do your on thing and we do our own thing, right? As long as it's within respectable limits of the golden rule. I got know problem with people needing something more as long as it does not over flow into the political arena and the public school system. If your "gods' plan is to turn the country into a ulta-conservative saudi style of government then we will as surely go back down the road of witch burnings and inquisitional prosicution.  What is your goal?

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

AT,

 

Let me see here, maybe to begin with I could force you to sit through 2 half hour sermons each Sunday, and another one Wednesday evening!

 

< just kidding, please don't go take any lessons from Nivek, and then come looking for me! >

 

...

 

On a more serious note, actually I guess my "goal" would involve something more along the lines that you can read in that book I posted the link for in the thread: Best Christian Apologetic books you have read (actually that book is not technically one like most which are considered to be about "Apologetics" - but for me, it is something that corresponds with what I think Christianity should motivate people to do).

 

Gotta go for now - my "pesky" work keeps interrupting me just when I get started trying to say something ...

 

-Dennis

[quicksand]

Morning Dennis. Hope you got good plans for the weekend!

 

As far as knowing you is concerned - you are very correct - I don't know any specifics about your "dreams, plans and desires" but to be honest with you, I don't feel like there is any part of your Spirit living inside me (other than the common aspects that we are both people and hence in one sense "family").

But Dennis, you can. You can know me. We can sit down together and have a beer or coffee together and talk about these things. I can ask the same of you.

 

But with God up there or out there somewhere you can not. You can only look to yourself and express your desires, you love, your heartfelt desires and peace through the facade of something you call "God" and dress it up in Christianity.

 

You know this with the interactions between you and your wife. And you are right, you can only even estimate what is really going on behind your wife's mind and then trust precedes from there. But can you look in God's eyes? No. You can only look behind your eyes and believe you are looking into God's.

 

You trust yourself Dennis, and not God. And I think by splitting the overall grand plan of humanity into to play books reflects this desire to reconcile this apparent conflict with freewill and God's gross negligence for his created. (Well, that's my estimation.)

 

Oh I forgot this part. Sorry

 

I also suspect that God has already stopped us from letting some more smallpox loose (and/or various more potent human engineered strains of mutated diseases).

We're treading on the classic "Argument from Evil" of course.

 

Truly stopping these tragedies would be like magically turning the Tsunami to concrete as it approached the coast and not the few "miraculous" tales of survival that filtered through the media.

 

Or doing away with disease instead of stopping it. Which God had no part of. A quarter century of research and inoculation went into the eradication of the disease. God, again, mute and motionless. Now we can run back to the Bible of course and go on how Eve screwed us over, but you know that doesn't play.

 

Nope, humans are calling the plays. God is either standing on the sideline, or just not there.

 

Consequently, God and the various religious in His name are within the human playbook too.

 

• Taylor

[SOIL]

...

But Dennis, you can. You can know me. We can sit down together and have a beer or coffee together and talk about these things. I can ask the same of you. ...

...

• Taylor

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Taylor,

 

I think maybe we are starting on the way to a good "personal relationship" - now that you have told me your name.

 

I remember God (when wrestling with Jacob) asked him what his (real) name was. Finally, Jacob (the trickster) admitted to God who he was (though he had earlier tricked his father about that very subject in order to gain his blessing). My guess is that it may have been at that point, where Jacob might have feeling more able to truthfully say he was beginning to 'know God'.

 

It has not been easy for me to admit to God who I really am.

 

(Sorry but my work keeps calling me back - maybe I should just wait till sometime during the weekend to try to respond to folks here).

 

-Dennis

[white_raven23]

Maybe God wants "more developed people" and maybe that is why he chose to give us free will?

 

-Dennis

 

 

Well SOIL, if that is indeed the case (and I'm not arguing the possible existence of God, but I have no belief in BibleGod, KoranGod, or TorahGod), it makes perfect sense to me that God would be thrilled and happy to see people move beyond the clutch and crutch of religion.

 

Most parents are proud and happy when their kid is ready to take the training wheels off his bike. Sure, the kid will probably take some hard spills that wouldn't have happened if the training wheels stayed on, but the benefits for their own confidence ensure that spills aside, they are growing and developing.

 

I have learned a lot more stepping outside the confines of religion than I ever did when I was a Christian. I've changed more. I'm grown more. And most importantly I've become someone I like and understand. I did not have that confidence or assurance when I was a Christian. All I had were questions that were either blocked, ignored, or answered with zombie-parroting gibberish that clearly the person answering did not actually understand themselves.

[quicksand]

Taylor,

 

I think maybe we are starting on the way to a good "personal relationship" - now that you have told me your name.

 

I remember God (when wrestling with Jacob) asked him what his (real) name was.  Finally, Jacob (the trickster) admitted to God who he was (though he had earlier tricked his father about that very subject in order to gain his blessing).  My guess is that it may have been at that point, where Jacob might have feeling more able to truthfully say he was beginning to 'know God'.

 

It has not been easy for me to admit to God who I really am. 

 

(Sorry but my work keeps calling me back - maybe I should just wait till sometime during the weekend to try to respond to folks here).

 

-Dennis

I always found that odd, even when I was a kid, that God didn't already know who Jakob was, since he was supposed to know who I was? Never added up. And I suck at math.

 

Following that, why do you need to admit anything to God? Isn't he the compelling force behind your consciousness (i.e. self-identity, value assesment, sense and place of self.) already anyway?

 

Well?

 

Dennis, you are doing a very human thing, admitting whatever bothers you or charges you up to yourself. It's healthy.

 

I do it too. Heck, I am still bothered by an assumption I made about Reach without taking the very easy step and asking her first even after she's forgave me for it. My damnable ego in the way is what bothers me most of all.

 

I guess I don't see why God is thrown into the mix. Unnecessary in my view – which you already know. te' hee

 

I think maybe we are starting on the way to a good "personal relationship"...

I swear I thought I saw you (if that is you in the pic) at my local coffee street across the street awhile back.

 

-T

[Panther]

God has a plan for everybody?

 

For those who die early or young, in pain and suffering, was that God's plan?

 

Tragic accidents, the victims of heineous crimes, torture, hellacious weather related incidents and natural disasters. That was God's plan?

 

Consignment to Heaven or hell; the Bible tells us that that was God's plan.

 

Disco Stu, nice to see you finally made it here. It's been awhile. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Reach, you know what makes me absolutely pukey sick? When I hear the audacity of christins that say the global disasters are god's plan....such as the tsun(oh, I can't spell it...you know what I mean )

They have said...well, the people over there must have deserved it for some reason.

 

HOW SICK SICK SICK!!!!

[Panther]

Dennis,

You seem like a nice person....

please tell me....how do you see the God of the OT?

And have you read it all completely?

 

Thanks!

[SOIL]

Below, I snipped from the article entitled: Justice Seekers from Baylor magazine.

 

...

Yet, after nine hours of interviewing workers in India's synthetic gem industry and hearing the indignities of this form of indentured servitude, Boutros felt exhilarated. He was in the fourth day of a human rights inquiry conducted by an International Justice Mission (IJM) team into the abuses of bonded labor. Already during this trip, the team had documented 115 cases of abuse with affidavits and videotaped interviews.

 

After spending much of his academic career looking into the philosophical issues surrounding the existence of God and evil in the world, Boutros now was half a world away from his hometown of Dallas, living out the biblical mandate to seek freedom for the oppressed.

 

"So much evil in the world is preventable," says Boutros, 25, as he sits one afternoon in a dimly lit room under whirring fans in the south India city of Trichy. "I have no illusions of bringing heaven to earth, but this is one good thing worth doing. God shows up when we offer our small acts of obedience."

...

(I added the Bold emphasis)

 

Yesterday evening, I read an email from the author (David Wilson) of the article (from which I extracted the stuff in then above quote box). After being impressed with the piece David had written (about Gary Haugen) which appeared in Harvard's alumni type of magazine, I used google to finally locate David's email address, and I asked him if he knows (first hand) of anything more about Gary Haugen and what the IJM organization does. Besides telling me he has known Gary for many years (his wife was a "college chum" with Gary), he kindly pointed me to the above article.

 

If I understand correctly what David said in his short email reply - he was personally present on the investigatory trip to south India (which he mentions in the article).

 

The kinds of things IJM does is what I would like to see our rich (and blessed) country (USA) more concerned about - for instance, helping people in other less fortunate countries in a variety of ways, like teaching the people in power how to do a better job of enforcing their own laws - especially in cases where basic human rights are repeatedly being violated in unjust manners by people who most often get away with hurting their less fortunate and weaker fellow persons, without being effectively restrained or reprimanded by their government.

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

I swear I thought I saw you (if that is you in the pic) at my local coffee street across the street awhile back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Taylor,

 

Yep that is a photo of me (in my avatar).

 

As far as the guy you saw... If he had his mouth open most of the time (with a lot of hot air escaping) and if everyone else sitting at the same table looked like they were about to fall asleep ... then maybe that was me!

<wink>

 

-Dennis

(Time being my ever present enemy - so I wont be able to respond yet to the more substanitive parts of your post)

[SOIL]

...

please tell me....how do you see the God of the OT?

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Lisa,

 

I have a really high powered set of binoculars, specially equipped with a 'look back into the past' feature!

 

<Sorry about that - I just couldn't resist! ... bad me, ... bad, bad!>

 

.....

 

OK, so I'll try to sober up some here.

 

I (try) to see "the God of the OT" through glasses (worldview type, as opposed to Binoc's), which provide the necessary filters I try to factor in, based on the condition of the people at that time in history here on planet earth, the people to whom (I think) God was trying to communicate with - via such things as "the law" and the voices (and strange actions) of his "prophets", etc....

 

...

 

As far as whether I have read ALL of the Old Testament, to tell you the truth, I don't really know. Sadly, I have never been disciplined enough to stick with one of those daily read through the WHOLE BIBLE plans.

 

I have certainly read a lot of the Old Testament, in many relatively small chunks of reading times. I think I have read through most of the skeptics annotated Bible (OT) links - where the author tries to concentrate mainly on the 'bad parts', so I suspect I have most likely seen a good deal of the specific things you (and others here) might perhaps be most upset about.

 

I think some folks have complained (in this thread) about how I seem to think God has changed his plan at various points throughout history. Maybe semantics might be some of the problem.

 

In the OT, the main point seemed (to me anyway) to have come across to the people that they needed to 'try real hard' to do good stuff (and NOT do ANY bad stuff) in order to 'stay in line' with God's way of doing things. I see a contrast to that though in the NT, where it seems (again, to me anyway) like Jesus kind of went out of his way (like in the Sermon on the mount for instance) to communicate how that "old covenant" way just didn't seem to work out in any really practical sense.

 

I think that may be one of the reasons why Jesus was so concerned that He Himself needed to do what was required in order to get the justice aspect (of God's holy nature) off people's backs (so to speak). Then, also Jesus told his followers that it was very important (for them) for the Holy Spirit to arrive on the scene.

 

It looks to me like Jesus figured folks need individualized spiritual help (from God) - in order to act the way God wants us to act toward each other - not only so we can live happier lives here on earth and innocent people will suffer less - but also so we can enjoy being on good terms with God again (like before sin entered 'the picture' here on planet earth). <Hey, those Binoculars really come in handy at times!>

 

(Shoot, the work bell is ringing yet again, so I'll stop here)

 

-Dennis

[Panther]

Hi Lisa,

 

I have a really high powered set of binoculars, specially equipped with a 'look back into the past' feature!

 

<Sorry about that - I just couldn't resist!  ... bad me, ... bad, bad!>

 

.....

 

 

(Shoot, the work bell is ringing yet again, so I'll stop here)

 

-Dennis

 

Dennis, you really do seem like a nice man and a sense of humor too. I am on my way out the door as well, but will come back to this later.

Out of curiousity, if you get here before I do, how did you find us?

And...what do you think of the forum so far? (yes, I know, always full of questions, LOL!)

[SOIL]

Dennis, you really do seem like a nice man and a sense of humor too.  ... Out of curiousity, if you get here before I do, how did you find us?

...   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure why you ask Lisa .... I hope its not something to this effect:

 

"What's a nice guy like you doing in a place like this?"

 

<oh, Ohh - I'm really going to get it now!> <duck, quick!>

 

<sorry again - I reckon I'm way too fiesty today>

 

....

 

Actually, over a year ago I guess (actually I think it was about the time of the big controversy with the heavy 10 commandments monument in that state supreme court place), I did a keyword search in google for something like "Thomas Jefferson quotes Christian". I was curious about what types of his quotes were floating around the internet - (both pro and con about Christian related ideas). This site was one of the first that appeared on the list, because there were several 'con' quotes located here (as you might imagine).

 

(Interestingly, there were also various Christian type sites sporting some of Tommy's not so 'con' quotes - he's an interesting fellow).

 

At any rate (as I think I mentioned way back on the original version of this forum), one of the things that first caught my attention here was some of the threads Dave (our WM) wrote about sexuality (which has been a subject I have always been keenly interested in), relating to how the subject was spoken of by some of the early influential Christian writers.

 

I could identify with Dave's points, however (as you may also imagine), I didn't completely agree with his analysis. So I started spouting off (maybe in an attempt to grace readers here from my vast storehouse of practical wisdom on the subject <wink>).

 

One thing led to another, and after whining about the presence of "babe galleries", - I eventually started interacting with various folks (like Zach, Chef(Randen), Pitchu, etc....) about a lot of different subjects - and I sort of got hooked on the relatively unfettered exchange of ideas here.

 

I (like many here) have a questioning type of mind, and I like to have people respond honestly to me - without being afraid they are supposed to express only one specific type of view. Overall, I think there is a lot of freedom here, though I suspect there is probably some measure of peer pressure for pigeon-holed folks to hold relatively tightly to the expected ex-party line.

<he ducks again here!>

 

I have sort of been going through a reevaluation of some of my long held core beliefs - for several years now - I wasn't sure if it was a mid-life crises or what? Prior to when I started posting here, I really had not communicated very much with other people with whom I didn't share at least somewhere close to a similar way of looking at the both the spiritual and physical world we share.

 

It has been an interesting ride - though I sometimes just have to take a few weeks off - because this place can become too close to an addiction, and consume way too much of my supposed free time.

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

Dennis, you really do seem like a nice man and a sense of humor too.  ... Out of curiousity, if you get here before I do, how did you find us?

...   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure why you ask Lisa .... I hope its not something to this effect:

 

"What's a nice guy like you doing in a place like this?"

 

<oh, Ohh - I'm really going to get it now!> <duck, quick!>

 

<sorry again - I reckon I'm way too fiesty today>

 

....

 

Actually, over a year ago I guess (actually I think it was about the time of the big controversy with the heavy 10 commandments monument in that state supreme court place), I did a keyword search in google for something like "Thomas Jefferson quotes Christian". I was curious about what types of his quotes were floating around the internet - (both pro and con about Christian related ideas). This site was one of the first that appeared on the list, because there were several 'con' quotes located here (as you might imagine).

 

(Interestingly, there were also various Christian type sites sporting some of Tommy's not so 'con' quotes - he's an interesting fellow).

 

At any rate (as I think I mentioned way back on the original version of this forum), one of the things that first caught my attention here was some of the threads Dave (our WM) wrote about sexuality (which has been a subject I have always been keenly interested in), relating to how the subject was spoken of by some of the early influential Christian writers.

 

I could identify with Dave's points, however (as you may also imagine), I didn't completely agree with his analysis. So I started spouting off (maybe in an attempt to grace readers here from my vast storehouse of practical wisdom on the subject <wink>).

 

One thing led to another, and after whining about the presence of "babe and hunk galleries", - I eventually started interacting with various folks (like Zach, Chef(Randen), Pitchu, etc....) about a lot of different subjects - and I sort of got hooked on the relatively unfettered exchange of ideas here.

 

I (like many here) have a questioning type of mind, and I like to have people respond honestly to me - without being afraid they are supposed to express only one specific type of view. Overall, I think there is a lot of freedom here, though I suspect there is probably some measure of peer pressure for pigeon-holed folks to hold relatively tightly to the expected ex-party line.

<he ducks again here!>

 

I have sort of been going through a reevaluation of some of my long held core beliefs - for several years now - I wasn't sure if it was a mid-life crises or what? Prior to when I started posting here, I really had not communicated very much with other people with whom I didn't share at least somewhere close to a similar way of looking at the both the spiritual and physical world we share.

 

It has been an interesting ride - though I sometimes just have to take a few weeks off - because this place can become too close to an addiction, and consume way too much of my supposed free time.

 

-Dennis

[chefranden]

"I have no illusions of bringing heaven to earth, but this is one good thing worth doing. God shows up when we offer our small acts of obedience."

 

No god does not show up. People show up. This pisses me off. People do evil shit, but only god does the good shit, bah, humbug and phooey!!

[SOIL]

No god does not show up.  People show up.  This pisses me off.  People do evil shit, but only god does the good shit, bah, humbug and phooey!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Howdy Mr. Chef man!

 

Nothing like bringing a bit of cozy warmth and cheer to the table!

 

Pull up a chair and lets drink some ice tea together!

 

Good to see you posting again, by the way!

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

When in doubt blame Satan.  Dennis haven't you figured it out by now?  Your God is Satan.  You can't have an ominpotent, omniscient being cut off from another, more powerful demonic being trying to screw up the works.  If Satan does anything, if he even sneezes, you can bet your ass it's because God made it possible for him to sneeze.  You can't say "Oh well, Satan is responsible for the evil and God is responsible for the good" without turning your God into something weaker then you supposedly think a God should be.

 

Can you not see the paradox?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hi again Cerise,

 

Well, I guess sometimes folks can use the concept "the evil one" almost interchangeably with the concept of "evil" - for instance, compare the main text with the footnote, for the verse: John 17:15 in the ESV translation. I have noticed several of the more modern translations seem to indicate Jesus was referring to Satan - verses the old King James Translation - where it looks more like Jesus was simply referring to the concept "evil' (rather than "the evil one") in his famous prayer approaching the time of his passion.

 

Cerise, I don't remember reading several of those fancy big words like "ominpotent, omniscient" in the translations of the Bible that I have personally read. I realize I might hear them if I were to attend a seminary - but I have not done that (not yet anyway). Sometimes I wonder what God thinks about our systematic theology textbooks, the ones that define such a nice tidy box where we keep Him.

 

I'm not exactly sure where you learned exactly what I think "a God should be"? Was it in something like one of those systematic theology textbooks - the ones I don't have much use for?

 

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just curious how much some of you folks appear to think you know about my opinions concerning God. I try to write quite a bit - maybe you have learned more about that subject than I know myself - (I don't rule that out of the realm of possibility).

 

"Yes", I can see the "paradox" (see definition 2a at Webster's definition).

 

Common sense can get a person only so far - I think there are a lot of surprises in this world. I don't try to keep my understanding of God's power in a box shut tighter than the big-picture I glean from what I think I can still "hear" (in the Spirit) when I read those red words in my red-letter edition.

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

Dennis, Christian doctrine entails that all events have God as their first cause.  There is no little corner of the cosmos, not even at the inmost recess of the human will, where God is not sovereign.  God does not adjust any plan, achieve good out of human muck-ups of His plan, or anything such.  He ordains, he's first cause of all events.  end of story.

 

Christian doctrine entails that the suffering FOREVER of rational creatures glorifies God.  the saints rejoice at the sufferings inflicted by God on those who do not bow to God's absolute sway.  end of story.

 

So all that is part of the Plan.  The plan included Hell from before the foundation of creation.  My mind reels that people still talk about God as loving, etc.  It's like a Soviet citizen freezing in the gulag calling Joseph Stalin loving -- and believing it with all his heart!

 

I can't see how the above does not hold.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

ficino,

 

It almost seemed to me (after reading your first paragraph) that you must have just finished reading Arthur W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God!

 

Concerning the second paragraph - I do remember reading in Revelations where saints who had been murdered because of their faith were asking God for some justice - but I don't recall reading about the "bow to God's absolute sway" part - (though I'm not saying one can't build such a case from scripture - it just hasn't hit me that way).

 

You must have picked up more specifics about "the plan" than I have (maybe you are one of those who have been to a seminary?)

 

The main stuff I got when reading through (just) the Bible - was the idea that God didn't really want so many folks to end up in hell - and that might have had something to do with him having Jesus take the burden of bearing our sins.

 

Man, what must they be teaching in these seminaries now a days?

 

(I apologize if I am wrong about you having attended a seminary - I guess I really shouldn't insult someone without checking first!) <wink>

 

-Dennis

[chefranden]

Hi again Cerise,

 

Well, I guess sometimes folks can use the concept "the evil one" almost interchangeably with the concept of "evil" - for instance, compare the main text with the footnote, for the verse: John 17:15 in the ESV translation.  I have noticed several of the more modern translations seem to indicate Jesus was referring to Satan - verses the old King James Translation - where it looks more like Jesus was simply referring to the concept "evil' (rather than "the evil one") in his famous prayer approaching the time of his passion.

 

Cerise, I don't remember reading several of those fancy big words like "ominpotent, omniscient" in the translations of the Bible that I have personally  read.  I realize I might hear them if I were to attend a seminary - but I have not done that (not yet anyway).  Sometimes I wonder what God thinks about our systematic theology textbooks,  the ones that define such a nice tidy box where we keep Him.

 

I'm not exactly sure where you learned exactly what I think "a God should be"? Was it in something like one of those systematic theology textbooks - the ones I don't have much use for?

 

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just curious how much some of you folks appear to think you know about my opinions concerning God. I try to write quite a bit - maybe you have learned more about that subject than I know myself - (I don't rule that out of the realm of possibility).

 

"Yes", I can see the "paradox" (see definition 2a at Webster's definition).

 

Common sense can get a person only so far - I think there are a lot of surprises in this world. I don't try to keep my understanding of God's power in a box shut tighter than the big-picture I glean from what I think I can still "hear" (in the Spirit) when I read those red words in my red-letter edition.

 

-Dennis

 

If you can really hear something when you read the red words, perhaps a cat scan would be inorder. More likely what you hear is your desparation to make God be good, when it is obvious that the reverse is true if God exists.

 

I would say that we know quite a bit about your opinions about God because you are not reluctant to share. You do seem to have a calvinistic perspective so it is somewhat of logical assumption that you have an omnimax god. If you don't you are pretty much a heretic you know, which is maybe why I love you so.

 

There is nothing to keep you from writing your own systematic theology, maybe you could fix a few things.

[Guest acorn]

That is one of the most asked things that I hear from beleivers, and non believers. This subject is tough, but there really is no right or feel good answer. As a follower of Christ we must go through many different things in life. Some of these things are very difficult, and any time the acts of others or unpredictable circumstances comes in death to a loved one it is hard to deal with. David is an example that God does give us to me personally in the Bible to help with these types of issues. David, from Saul trying to kill him, to seeing his sons death, kept his faith. This has helped me through the hardships that I have come about in years time. God wants us to be faithful, if David wouldnt have still kept the faith, and turned then we wouldnt probualy have the new testament. The new testament declares that Jesu was the seed of David, so I know that what ever may happen in this short life it is all for the essence of Gods plan, and His fullfillment of the Bible in different ways.

[LloydDobler]

The way to look at it is this. It is absolutely impossible for an omnipotent god to not get what he wants.

 

Therefore everything that happens, every single thing, is his will. He can claim to hate evil all he wants. But the evil is his will. 100% a part of his perfect plan.

 

Doesn't it just make more sense that he's not there at all, and everything in the world, both good and bad, happens because people make it happen?

[♦ ficino ♦]

The way to look at it is this.  It is absolutely impossible for an omnipotent god to not get what he wants.

 

Therefore everything that happens, every single thing, is his will.  He can claim to hate evil all he wants.  But the evil is his will.  100% a part of his perfect plan. 

 

Doesn't it just make more sense that he's not there at all, and everything in the world, both good and bad, happens because people make it happen?

 

 

Dennis, Lloyd Dobler said what I was trying to say much more succinctly. Whether I've been to seminary or not is irrelevant, and I'm surprised you blew off my reply to you with dismissive guesses about what my education may have been. You admit that you do not read the Bible completely nor in a systematic way, and then you chuckle at those who believe they speak from having done this?

 

I'm wondering whether you will tell Lloyd that the word "omnipotent" isn't in the Bible. Please do a word study and check out what is entailed by the various ways God is described in that collection of writings. Do you ever recite any of the historical creeds when you go to church? "I believe in one God, the Father Almighty..." Almighty is an English translation of the Latin "omnipotentem."

 

I'm a bit pissed off because I believe you are fudging many things, of which -- beyond your individual views -- there are big political consequences, to allude to Atheist Thinker a while back on here.

[Cerise]

Hi again Cerise,

 

Well, I guess sometimes folks can use the concept "the evil one" almost interchangeably with the concept of "evil" - for instance, compare the main text with the footnote, for the verse: John 17:15 in the ESV translation.  I have noticed several of the more modern translations seem to indicate Jesus was referring to Satan - verses the old King James Translation - where it looks more like Jesus was simply referring to the concept "evil' (rather than "the evil one") in his famous prayer approaching the time of his passion.

 

Cerise, I don't remember reading several of those fancy big words like "ominpotent, omniscient" in the translations of the Bible that I have personally  read.  I realize I might hear them if I were to attend a seminary - but I have not done that (not yet anyway).  Sometimes I wonder what God thinks about our systematic theology textbooks,  the ones that define such a nice tidy box where we keep Him.

 

I'm not exactly sure where you learned exactly what I think "a God should be"? Was it in something like one of those systematic theology textbooks - the ones I don't have much use for?

 

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just curious how much some of you folks appear to think you know about my opinions concerning God. I try to write quite a bit - maybe you have learned more about that subject than I know myself - (I don't rule that out of the realm of possibility).

 

"Yes", I can see the "paradox" (see definition 2a at Webster's definition).

 

Common sense can get a person only so far - I think there are a lot of surprises in this world. I don't try to keep my understanding of God's power in a box shut tighter than the big-picture I glean from what I think I can still "hear" (in the Spirit) when I read those red words in my red-letter edition.

 

-Dennis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I can only surmise that not only haven't you read the bible, you don't really care to and would rather go on salad-bar picking the traits of your own personal God making machine and switching the parts around whenever it suits you. Blatantly.

 

Which is fine, but you could be calling yourself a Universalist or a Pagan and it would make no difference. Why you insist on calling yourself "Christian" while clearly making up a god, I'll never know.

 

By the way, ominpotent means all-powerful. If you can't find numerous places in the bible where God is called all-powerful, you haven't cracked the cover my friend. Ditto with "All-knowing" which is omniscient. And if you can't stop yourself from claiming that God is everywhere and is actually good (I thought about using the word "benevolent" but decided you might try and tell me that isn't in the bible either) and has power over pretty much everything then your "opinion of what a God should be" is pretty much what I thought. And it came from the bible, not a "systemic theology textbook" although if you want to use those words when you toss your holy book out the window for THE WORD OF DENNIS CHAP VII VERSE XIX go right ahead.

 

You're already more of a heretic then anyone on this site possible could of dreamed of making you into. Congrats.

 

By the way, thanks for using your usual tactic of "dissaude and distract" when dealing with my post. It answered nothing but managed to take up so much space while doing so. That's a talent.

 

If I sound pissy, it's because I haven't had my coffee yet. Really, your post made me smile and laugh and all the amusing stuff. It so craaaazy.

[chefranden]

That is one of the most asked things that I hear from beleivers, and non believers. This subject is tough, but there really is no right or feel good answer.

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As a follower of Christ we must go through many different things in life. Some of these things are very difficult, and any time the acts of others or unpredictable circumstances comes in death to a loved one it is hard to deal with.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David is an example that God does give us to me personally in the Bible to help with these types of issues. David, from Saul trying to kill him, to seeing his sons death, kept his faith. This has helped me through the hardships that I have come about in years time. God wants us to be faithful, if David wouldnt have still kept the faith, and turned then we wouldnt probualy have the new testament.

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The new testament declares that Jesu was the seed of David, so I know that what ever may happen in this short life it is all for the essence of Gods plan, and His fullfillment of the Bible in different ways.

 

What you mean is that you can't think of a good harebrained attempt to defend how your idea of god doesn't violate the law of non-contradiction. At least Soil makes the attempt.

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Here is a much better explanation for you.

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You fail to note, that David was making his living as a terrorist for hire before he got to be king. You also fail to note that a baby was killed by God instead of David for his murder of Uriah. Thus God contradicts his own word:

Ezekiel18:19 Yet say ye, Wherefore doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? when the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

 

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

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Of course being the seed of David makes clear that Jesus is the son of a motherfucker on both sides of the family.

 

By the way, doesn't being your own daddy constitute some sort of incest?

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