God's Plan for US

[SOIL]

Looks like I have managed to offend both ficino and Cerise.

 

Sorry, that was not really my intention. But then, each time I "piss off" someone - when I look back, I suppose I pretty much always say that was not really my intention. I guess some things just come naturally for me.

 

Concerning God's sovereign will, this morning as I was sitting in the nice comfy chair beside my bed, I was feeling irritated and I started reciting the Lord's prayer (perhaps I was thinking that might bring some sense of satisfaction to me - and contradict the spirit of dissatisfaction that seemed to be characterizing my overall demeanor).

 

When I got to this line:

 

        Your kingdom come,

        your will be done,

            on earth as it is in heaven.

I thought, something along these lines:

 

"Seems like the 'will of God' must be done in heaven in a way that is somehow different then it is done on earth - otherwise why would Jesus teach his disciples to pray that way?"

 

...

 

ficino,

 

I'm sorry I said what I did - actually I have kind of wanted to go to seminary myself - or at least learn more about latin - and probably, I may be just a bit jealous of some of what it looks like you may know (which I obviously don't).

 

...

 

Cerise,

 

Maybe I am just blanking out - but I would not be lying if I were to tell you that I have read quite a bit out of the Bible in a relatively systematic way for a good number of years - I just hate to tell anyone that I have "read it all the way through" when I suppose it is possible that I might have missed a page or two. Perhaps my brain has just been turned to mush though - and I simply may not remember a lot of what I have read.

 

Maybe I'm still too dense to understand exactly what I said that makes you think I am such a heretic - but hey, if that enears me to Chef - maybe it's not so bad after all !

 

 

-Dennis

[IAm_Lucifer]

The main stuff I got when reading through (just) the Bible - was the idea that God didn't really want so many folks to end up in hell - and that might have had something to do with him having Jesus take the burden of bearing our sins.

 

SOIL,

If YOU were God and YOU did not want so many people going to hell. What would YOU do?

 

I know what I would do. I would get rid of hell. After all, I would be the source of love right?

 

Do you think God could have been mistaken when he created hell?

[Cerise]

IAm_Lucifer, since Dennis' God seems to be neither omniscient nor omnipotent, according to him, God's mistake making capability has just gone up.

 

Of course, which God in particular Dennis is talking about is still under discussion.

[SOIL]

...

Of course, which God in particular Dennis is talking about is still under discussion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise,

 

The God Dennis is talking about is the one who Jesus was addressing in the "Lord's prayer" which I mentioned earlier.

 

The "Onmi" aspects of God which are plainly revealed "in heaven", appear somehow (to me anyway) less easily identifiable here "on earth".

 

I don't necessarily understand (and/or "like") the fact that God apparently has decided to accomplish 'His plan' on earth by working through fallible human beings.

 

However, whether I like that or not - I do see evidence it is true, as I read through the Bible (like I say, true: here "on earth" - at any rate - in a different way verses "in heaven").

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

SOIL,

If YOU were God and YOU did not want so many people going to hell. What would YOU do?

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IAL,

 

Here's my "short take" answer,

 

I suppose if God always did things the way I would do them - I wouldn't call him "God".

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

I think the first commandment should be,

"Thou shall not smoke crack".

 

That's the only way that I can see why they

come up with explanations like these, they

have to be smokin' some of the most potent

form of crack that has ever been made.

When God fails, he didn't fail. It was just Satan

throwing a wrench into his plan?!? 

 

Tis weak. Tis weak indeed. 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry Fweet,

 

I didn't mean to ignore your post - actually I wasn't really sure if you were even referring to me specifically.

 

I don't remember saying that God had "failed".

 

In my opinion, God decided on the parameters under which he will restrain using His irresistible power. Like I have mentioned before, it appears, to me anyway, as if God has decided to use people in the process of getting people out of the mess which people have got themselves into through using the freewill (which God decided to make available) in such a manner as to turn away from the One who has given us life.

 

At the time God made the decision to use people in the process of accomplishing his plan - I think he necessarily decided there would be some "mistakes" (battles lost) during the long process, which I believe will culminate in winning the war ( "Thy kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven").

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

...

I'm a bit pissed off because I believe you are fudging many things, of which -- beyond your individual views -- there are big political consequences, to allude to Atheist Thinker a while back on here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(I added the Bold emphais)

ficino,

 

OK, I am more than willing to discuss the "big political consequences" which have resulted in my views of God (after having attended, for at least 45 years, the kind of churches which most people here would likely categorize as 'fundamental evangelical christian'). I'm not sure what you mean when you say "-- beyond your individual views --", so I will limit my comments to what is in the realm of my individual views.

 

AT,

 

   Let me see here, maybe to begin with I could force you to sit through 2 half hour sermons each Sunday, and another one Wednesday evening!

 

< just kidding, please don't go take any lessons from Nivek, and then come looking for me! >

 

...

 

On a more serious note, actually I guess my "goal" would involve something more along the lines that you can read in that book I posted the link for in the thread: Best Christian Apologetic books you have read (actually that book is not technically one like most which are considered to be about "Apologetics" - but for me, it is something that corresponds with what I think Christianity should motivate people to do).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(I 'just now' added the bold emphasis)

 

Terrify No More by Gary Haugen

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Below, I snipped from the article entitled:  Justice Seekers from Baylor magazine.

<snipped text omitted - here - you can click on the link above for the full article>

 

Yesterday evening, I read an email  from the author (David Wilson) of the article (from which I extracted the stuff in then above quote box).  After being impressed with the piece David had written (about Gary Haugen) which appeared in Harvard's alumni type of magazine, I used google to finally locate David's email address, and I asked him if he knows (first hand) of anything more about Gary Haugen and what the IJM organization does.  Besides telling me he has known Gary for many years (his wife was a "college chum" with Gary), he kindly pointed me to the above article.

 

If I understand correctly what David said in his short email reply - he was personally present on the investigatory trip to south India (which he mentions in the article).

 

The kinds of things IJM does is what I would like to see our rich (and blessed) country (USA) more concerned about - for instance,  helping people in other less fortunate countries in a variety of ways, like teaching the people in power how to do a better job of enforcing their own laws - especially in cases where basic human rights are repeatedly being violated in unjust manners by people who most often get away with hurting their less fortunate and weaker fellow persons, without being effectively restrained or reprimanded by their government.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(I 'just now' added the bold emphasis)

 

Have you looked through the two articles (available at the links I provided above) -or at least some of the amazon reviews of the book: Terrify No More which I referred AT to when he asked me about any political consequences of my belief) ?

 

And, if so , do you have any issues with the "big political consequences" related to where my understanding of God's plan (and people's appropriate response) have apparently taken me?

 

-Dennis

[♦ ficino ♦]

Dear Dennis, I did read your earlier post on the article about Justice Seekers, and I have read a number of reviews of Haugen's book on Amazon's site. It sounds as though those guys are trying to put Jesus' teachings into practice. The political implications of their work sound as though they will be profound, the more influential it is. To treat other people as moral ends and not as objects to be used is a goal for everyone. I wish I achieved it more consistently.

 

At the end of my last post, I was not very clear. I did not mean that I opposed the political implications of your individual views. I was reacting to what fundamentalists seem to want to do in the political arena, i.e. take over public policy and make it conform to their norms. I oppose that, because I disagree with a lot of their norms - for example, their general homophobia. As a gay man in a long-term relationship, which poses the same challenges that long-term marriages do, I resent the efforts of the Religious Right to... well, enough said.

 

I'm not equating the public advocacy of the religious right and your political views at all, Dennis. We might agree on many things there. As I think you said to Kryten a while ago, things would go differently in conversation than they do in an exchange of often fast-typed e-mails.

 

From some of your writings earlier on this thread, say, April 28, for example, I got the impression that you were making a lot of declarative statements, including some quotes of scripture, about God's will and God's nature. I didn't see how those statements in their entirety were consistent with scripture. You seem to want to back off from asserting that God does stuff like create or will evil or suffering, or that at least, you want to suggest that He wishes we humans wouldn't mess up so much. Since I think the Bible indicates that God is the author of all events, including predestining those who mess up to mess up, I think you're inconsistent with scripture if you're denying that. Also inconsistent with what is entailed by saying God is almighty. I think if you are committed to the ethical orientation that I think you hold, you have many reasons for rejecting the Bible's depiction of the character "God" as a sound ethical model. You may want to retain some pieces of that depiction and perhaps jettison others.

 

I acknowledge that not all Christians have the same political program. I know you have made many contributions to this board, but I can't remember right now how many other times you articulated your political views. So I would be interested to hear more of them -- or later, to go back and look at the archives.

 

Take care for now