Numinous Experiences

[Zephie]

As I go through this process of deconversion, how do I deal with the numinous experiences that I have had? For example, speaking in tongues (which I've heard that people who have deconverted can still do, lol), knowing or experiencing the presence of God, healings, my dad seeing an angel when his accident happened (I'll do a post later), etc. So how have ya'll dealt with these experiences? I don't think it wise to discount them but at the same time I'd like to hear from others as my deconversion happened as years of praying/seeking God. Sometimes I feel like I've "heard" God and sometimes well honestly I think I'm praying to a picture on my wall. Just something that I thought I'd ask. Thankies for any responses

[Noggy]

Perhaps the concept of 'God' is not wrong, but the interpretation of what 'God' is from the Christian perspective, mostly through the Christian Bible, is wrong.

 

Disregarding the Bible does not mean disregarding spirituality, or disregarding experience. In fact, it would be replacing this preconceived 'truths' that the Bible held up with the truth of experience. Everything else has just been 'told' to you. What have you experienced? How can it be explained in a different way that you already know about? After these questions are answered to the best of your ability go on a search, and find the ways your experience can be explained that you DIDN'T know about.

 

Remember, Paul saw an angel. Your father saw an angel. My father saw an angel. Buddha saw Maya. A man in a turban felt 'Allah'. Are all of these experiences wrong? Are all of them right? Is it attributable to the same being? Is it attributed to being at all? You've begun an interesting journey. Be very careful to separate between fact and fiction, be diligent. Don't go back into old ways, and be hesitant about rushing into new ones. And always trust your own experience, because in the end, everything else is just photons bouncing into your eyeballs.

[Margee]

Zephie, I'm going to comment on the speaking in tongues which I have been able to fluently 'speak' since I was 20 years old. I really believed with all my heart that god gave me this powerful communication so I would have a direct 'hotline to heaven' with him. My language is beautiful. It flows out of me and sounds like a little bit of every accent on this earth. It floors people when I speak it and I can still speak it for hours if I wanted to.

 

Now... I have blasphemed the holy spirit, rejected christ and believe that the bible is NOT the word of god today. Why can I still speak this 'language'? Because I am good at it. I am good at creating speech-like syllables that sound great. In the world, it is known as glossalia. Many other cultures and religions are known to speak in another language - it is not just christianity.

 

You would have thought that god would have removed this from my lips by now!!??

 

Experts who have studied this believe glossolalia is a learned, internalized behavior. They believe a person learns to speak in tongues much the same way a baby learns to speak his/her language. At first, the participant starts speaking or "glossolaling" with a few syllables and consonants. After repeated utterances, the person expands the original utterance by perhaps repeating the original phrase many times very rapidly as to sound like a foreign language. Many think glossolalics unconsciously form their own rhymes . This would result in sentences and even entire dialogues.

 

Do a little research on the topic - it's real interesting.

 

Today, I feel a little sad that this is still part of me BUT not part of god. I have had to let that go.......sad......

[Zephie]

I've heard much the same although not with the explanation that you've given. I mean come to think of it, I can't discount these spiritual experiences but I think that there's something out there that is bigger than I am or perhaps it all just is. It is sad to think that the things I've experienced are based on emotional experiences but still. I am not making any sense with this post, lol.

[lunaticheathen]

I've felt many spiritual events and experiences. Just none in a christian context - so I suppose I don't much have your problem.

I just know I believe in an "invisible world", as it were, and believe there are many ways to interact with it. The christian paradigm just was never the way for me to experience it. Kind of acted like a spirit "EMP button", as it were.

You know, I watched pentecostal holiness people in a service, falling down, speaking in tongues, being "slain in the spirit" kind of thing, and it looks shockingly similar to what happens in Vodou ceremonies. The big difference, is that in Vodou, a spirit actually possesses the "slain" person, and conveys lessons and messages, in the common tongue. The way christians just fall over, writhe, and praise their god, confuses me. It doesn't seem to serve a purpose at all.

[Thurisaz]

...Remember, Paul saw an angel. Your father saw an angel. My father saw an angel. Buddha saw Maya. A man in a turban felt 'Allah'. Are all of these experiences wrong? Are all of them right? Is it attributable to the same being? ...

 

Some will say yes... and smirk

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorlons#Physiology

 

Sorry just couldn't resist. Early shift and too much caffeine sometimes do strange things to me

[Zephie]

...Remember, Paul saw an angel. Your father saw an angel. My father saw an angel. Buddha saw Maya. A man in a turban felt 'Allah'. Are all of these experiences wrong? Are all of them right? Is it attributable to the same being? ...

 

Some will say yes... and smirk

 

http://en.wikipedia....lons#Physiology

 

Sorry just couldn't resist. Early shift and too much caffeine sometimes do strange things to me

 

Ah crap, I'm gonna have to watch Babylon 5 now...hope they've got it on Netflix....

As far as caffeine goes...YESH! Caffeine is great

[Zephie]

I've felt many spiritual events and experiences. Just none in a christian context - so I suppose I don't much have your problem.

I just know I believe in an "invisible world", as it were, and believe there are many ways to interact with it. The christian paradigm just was never the way for me to experience it. Kind of acted like a spirit "EMP button", as it were.

You know, I watched pentecostal holiness people in a service, falling down, speaking in tongues, being "slain in the spirit" kind of thing, and it looks shockingly similar to what happens in Vodou ceremonies. The big difference, is that in Vodou, a spirit actually possesses the "slain" person, and conveys lessons and messages, in the common tongue. The way christians just fall over, writhe, and praise their god, confuses me. It doesn't seem to serve a purpose at all.

 

I've had some experiences outside the realm of Christianity as well although several well-intentioned deliverance sessions have kind of screwed up any notion of being able to experience anything like that again. In many ways the whole charismatice, tongue talking, slain in the spirit things do not serve any purpose but to rile people up and create more emotional experiences for others. For example, the same peace that I feel in a worship service or in prayer is the same peace that I experienced upon casting a circle. So I am not willing to explain away or dismiss those experiences nor will I ever feel that it is right to do so. Right now, I just don't know and, for me, that's ok. So whether I begin to practice some form of paganism or move to liberal church or just not believe in anything eventually I don't know.

 

Thankies for the input.

[VacuumFlux]

I never had many of those experiences from inside a Christian context. My experiences are with stuffy self-conscious middle class white people who think raising their hands while singing is scary because it's too much like being charismatic, and charismatics are doing it wrong. I was a little nervous about some of my own meditation/altered states of consciousness experiences when I realized that they could be described as "occult". So for me, deconverting helped me give myself permission to fully explore those experiences without needing to label them as "good" or "evil" or even "spiritual" right away. Give yourself time to figure it out; the state of your soul does NOT depend on getting the answer right.

[DesertBob]

I think it's important to resist what appears to be a natural tendency to superimpose your belief system / preconceptions / hopes / needs onto experiences. The only remotely supernatural experience I ever had was post-deconversion and upon reflection the most I can confidently say about it is that it raised way more questions than answers, so even though I cannot explain it in terms of my provisional worldview, it's not really actionable either.

 

Cultivate the willingness to sit with uncertainty. Certitude is what religion sells, and a willingness to not be able to explain every little thing is a good inoculation against religion. Anything that you encounter that is both important and useful will eventually become clearer to you as to what it is, where it comes from, what it means, and how to deal with it. But don't take short cuts and look for superficial fit with this or that prefabricated cosmology or worldview. It's too easy to fool yourself.

[Overcame Faith]

Hi, Zephie, and welcome to ExC.

 

What I am totally certain about is that Christianity is a false religion and that the god of the Bible does not exist. Since I was fooled by Christianity for so many years, I have decided as a self-protective measure not personally to take up belief in another god until or unless there is sufficient evidence to convince me that such a god exists. So far, I have not seen such evidence. But this is not to say there are no "spiritual" experiences because there are, and a number of people on ExC, while being former Christians, still appear to experience such things. The question is what caused the "spiritual" experiences that people have had. I think that's the big question, and I don't have the answer.

 

One of your questions has to do with miracles. One way to approach that issue is first to define what a miracle is. I think the best definition is something that occurs that is contrary to the laws of nature (physics, biology, chemistry, etc.). By that definition, a woman conceiving and giving birth to a baby, though wonderful, is no miracle. Similarly, someone being healed despite being told by a doctor that they were going to die is not a miracle unless it could be proved to be contrary to the laws of biology/medicine. The best example would be someone growing back an amputated limb. To date, I have seen no convincing evidence of any miracles of any type whatsoever. I would love to see such evidence, though!

[Antlerman]

I mean come to think of it, I can't discount these spiritual experiences but I think that there's something out there that is bigger than I am or perhaps it all just is. It is sad to think that the things I've experienced are based on emotional experiences but still. I am not making any sense with this post, lol.

First as far as having spiritual experiences those are entirely valid and you should embrace them. What isn't valid however is to think they validate a particular religion's beliefs as The Truth™. People the world over experience the ineffable, the transcendent, Spirit, God, etc. The experiences are fairly similar regardless of how they are symbolized, i.e., encountering Jesus, or Krishna, or Shiva, etc.

 

Are they based on 'emotional experiences'? No. I do not believe so. Emotions can accompany spiritual experience, of course. But you also can also have spiritual experience without emotions. I believe in part what you may be referring to is what can be called "raising energy" in ritual practices. In Charismatic churches there are certain typical forms they follow where they have group singing, inspiring words of testimonies, leading in prayers and praise, etc. These forms create a ritual space, that 'circle' in Wiccan terms, and through raising emotional energies in this way, in prepares the mind by leaving the world outside and enter into the circle through group energy. In that space then instruction, teaching, etc, attempting to direct and focus the mind towards inner work. It is then all taken and grounded through benediction and blessing, etc so the participant can take that experience out into the world. How successfully they are, how valuable or legitimate that group is is another question. But the point of this explanation is to show even though in the 'raising energies' part of the ritual, the spiritual experience is not 'based on it'.

 

In this way emotions, in this context, are 'aides' to spiritual experience, in the same way chant, or dance, etc, are aides. But the experience itself is not 'based on chant'. To someone who knows how to move into that transcendent state, it can be done without chant, dance, or emotions (raising energy). Then, once there, what you touch upon in that deep inner space can in fact be very emotional depending on what you accessing in yourself. The purpose of spiritual experience is to open one's mind to themselves and the world. It is way of insight that no other teaching can show, because it is your own inner path.

 

 

Secondly, you say, "I think that there's something out there that is bigger than I am." There is. You are bigger than you are. One of the myriad things you gain in spiritual insight is that how we see ourselves as 'in here' and the world as "out there", begins to dissolve. You come to see yourself without the masks. You begin to see yourself in the world, and the world in you. "God", the transcendent, the divine, the ineffable, is not just sensed "out there", but directly "in you". In fact the deeper you move into that space, into that realization, all separations dissolve. Everything becomes Light, in you and in the world.

 

The major problem with Christian thought is that it externalizes everything. God is 'out there'. God is a separate "person" out there somewhere, with us down here somewhere. It solidifies this separation through its dogma and doctrines and literalistic mindsets. The nature of its tools, it's symbols and forms, is taken as God itself. They are not means or tools to find God in yourself, and in the world, but as objects that become the experience of God. They become substitutes for God, and become a religion.

 

So bottom line in all that long explanation: embrace your experiences but don't let any religion claim to own them for you; and try to begin to see that what appears as 'out there' is in fact 'in here' as well.

[ConureDelSol]

I'm not sure if I should call you "lucky" by any means. I never had ANY spiritual experiences. Not one. I never "felt the presence of God" anywhere. I tried and it just lead to disappointment. There were times I tried to fool my brain into thinking regular everyday good fortune was somehow God watching over me. Tried is the key word, no matter how many times I said it to myself I just had this nagging feeling that it was nothing special. I never saw angels. I never "heard" God speak to me. The only reaction I gave when reading the Bible was one of boredom and wanting to do something...ANYTHING else.

 

It pissed me off. Why are all these other people so special? Why am I being ignored? Why can't I feel anything? Prayer didn't do shit no matter how long I prayed or how hard. At first, I was mad at God. Then I was doubtful of Christianity. Then I figured things out. Now I'm mad at Christianity, not God. I've never had the whole tongues thing. I never went to a pentecostal church. That doesn't mean I didn't go to some high energy churches. I'm stuck in one now. Even then, other than excitement I felt nothing.

 

The closest thing to a spiritual experience I've ever had was when I visited a mosque and watched people pray. Weird.

[Foxy Methoxy]

You know, I watched pentecostal holiness people in a service, falling down, speaking in tongues, being "slain in the spirit" kind of thing, and it looks shockingly similar to what happens in Vodou ceremonies. The big difference, is that in Vodou, a spirit actually possesses the "slain" person, and conveys lessons and messages, in the common tongue. The way christians just fall over, writhe, and praise their god, confuses me. It doesn't seem to serve a purpose at all.

 

Me either. The crazy thing is I've experienced a Benny Hinn revival, been slain in the spirit, writhed and wrigled, and spoke in tongues and that moment for me was pure. It's all the forced acts afterward that soiled the experience for me. I experienced similar things when I was initiated into the mysteries and also when attuned for Reiki. I've come to the conclusion at the moment you experience something pure, there is no need to define it. Every forced action afterward does nothing but sully and soil the perfect moments.

[Antlerman]

I've come to the conclusion at the moment you experience something pure, there is no need to define it. Every forced action afterward does nothing but sully and soil the perfect moments.

It's like trying to clutch the wind, or seize the light. The second you do that, you are focused on yourself and no longer in that place of pure experience. I can share something I've learned as well in moving into that space, which is in fact something which is repeatable.

 

The saying 'seek and you shall find', is in fact very true. But the key to it is a parodox. You do not seek it because you want it. You seek it for its own sake, so to speak. It is simply giving yourself to it, wholly. You are not looking to possess it. You are not looking to experience it. You do not seek the experience. It is not about you and your wants. Yet, you want it in the sense of wanting to BE that, for its sake. To fall into the Ocean and be possesed of IT and become That. And this is the lesson to be repeated every single time until you eventually become that purity yourself in indivisible union.

[Antlerman]

The closest thing to a spiritual experience I've ever had was when I visited a mosque and watched people pray. Weird.

Have you ever just watched a sunset where your mind stills and you simply breathe in the world in pure form, without any cluter of other thoughts? Or the wind rise up to you and your mind is released into the world for that brief moment? These are experiences of spiritual moments. Eventually you find that Beauty in all things, within yourself, rising in the world in a harmonious dance, a song, in light. You can taste as much or as little as you want.

 

I think it's a mistake to expect it to look this way or that way. It is an internal state, marked by a clear mind freed of the debris of thought. Telling ourselves we don't have it or can't experience that in ourselves makes ourself our greatest enemy. It is always already there. It's just a matter of drawing back the curtains, which in fact is the work. It is a work of 'unlearning' to see what is already fully there.

[DesertBob]

I never had ANY spiritual experiences. Not one. I never "felt the presence of God" anywhere. I tried and it just lead to disappointment.

Same here. I think someone who easily experiences the numinous inside of established religion is apt to experience it just as well outside it. Being prone to religious sentiment and mystical experiences appears to have little to do directly with one's belief system or methods. I recall this gal in the choir at church who was just this incredibly bubbly thing that always lost herself in the experience of singing and imagine that if she deconverted sometime in the years since she's probably still full of delight and wonder as the dopamine flows through her veins and squirts out her ears ... but most people just aren't made that way; alas, we are not all so easily amused. Would that we were.

[DesertBob]

I think it's a mistake to expect it to look this way or that way. It is an internal state, marked by a clear mind freed of the debris of thought. Telling ourselves we don't have it or can't experience that in ourselves makes ourself our greatest enemy. It is always already there. It's just a matter of drawing back the curtains, which in fact is the work. It is a work of 'unlearning' to see what is already fully there.

Beautifully put.

 

I don't know that it's actually a matter of not experiencing it. I felt a hint of it during an evensong service at Westminster Abbey once, and I've felt little glimmers here and there in other situations. I suppose just sitting here typing away is a little bit of stream of consciousness for me. The difference is that none of these things ever moves me much emotionally.

 

If you can't impose any expectations on the numinous then perhaps you can't imagine that it's going to be that compelling to all comers either.

[Antlerman]

I think it's a mistake to expect it to look this way or that way. It is an internal state, marked by a clear mind freed of the debris of thought. Telling ourselves we don't have it or can't experience that in ourselves makes ourself our greatest enemy. It is always already there. It's just a matter of drawing back the curtains, which in fact is the work. It is a work of 'unlearning' to see what is already fully there.

Beautifully put.

 

I don't know that it's actually a matter of not experiencing it. I felt a hint of it during an evensong service at Westminster Abbey once, and I've felt little glimmers here and there in other situations. I suppose just sitting here typing away is a little bit of stream of consciousness for me. The difference is that none of these things ever moves me much emotionally.

Being moved emotionally isn't it. You may be moved emotionally or not, the same as in your regular waking consciousness throughout the course of every day. The difference is the nature of the emotion. I can be in a deep spiritual state of consciousness, and be completely emotionless. So as to your characterization that spiritual states are about being 'easily amused', that would wrong on your part. It is not about a 'high', or a distraction or entertainment. It is about being awake. It is about seeing.

 

If there is joy that follows that, it is the same as any happiness that is part of living your regular 'consensus consciousness' life. The difference is those emotional moments I would characterize as one who actually experiences them on a regular basis, are more unbounded, fuller, richer, farther, deeper, wider, more grounded, centered, and meaningful. The reason is because the spiritual mind sees much more, and therefore the whole body is more attuned to what is there. Again, it's like pulling the curtain back, pulling the hood off the falcon's head so it can see the world and take flight.

 

That's an accurate way to talk about it.

 

If you can't impose any expectations on the numinous then perhaps you can't imagine that it's going to be that compelling to all comers either.

You can't impose expectations because you limit it by defining it in your mind ahead of time. You can however expect it is good. That is is far more an infinite depth of reality beyond the mundane reality you live in your mind in your daily life. But my real point of saying you don't go into it with expectations, is your own personal expectation of self-gain. My point is you have your eyes on yourself. The point of going into the deep, is to go beyond that 'self', to move into something beyond that little ego 'me', into the unknown. It is really, truly, an act of faith, a real genuine faith that simply falls or steps into the Ocean beyond understanding. Once there, then there is awareness. You can expect it is beyond you, but you don't go into it looking for an experience for your little ego, that you can possess it. It posses you, and becomes you and you it.

 

That is the paradox. Finding that thin veil in your conscious mind between self and Self. You seek, but you don't seek. You abandon seeking for yourself, you die to yourself, you move beyond the veil. It's like what I said before you liked, "I am all religions. I am none". That is a valid reality. A Truth beyond all truths.

[stryper]

 

It's like trying to clutch the wind, or seize the light.

 

Smartass quote of the day: Since light is a particle wave and wind is simply the air resolving pressure differences between two points, they both technically can be caught.

 

:ducks and runs:

[Foxy Methoxy]

It's like trying to clutch the wind, or seize the light.  

 

Smartass quote of the day:  Since light is a particle wave and wind is simply the air resolving pressure differences between two points, they both technically can be caught.  

 

:ducks and runs:

 

Both can be experienced but neither can be trapped.

[Antlerman]

It's like trying to clutch the wind, or seize the light.

 

Smartass quote of the day: Since light is a particle wave and wind is simply the air resolving pressure differences between two points, they both technically can be caught.

 

:ducks and runs:

 

Both can be experienced but neither can be trapped.

To carry the metaphor further, the power of both can be harnessed for work. You turn your sail into the wind. You allow light to illuminate your steps.

[Zephie]

It's like trying to clutch the wind, or seize the light.

 

Smartass quote of the day: Since light is a particle wave and wind is simply the air resolving pressure differences between two points, they both technically can be caught.

 

:ducks and runs:

 

I sort of feel like I should yell "Bazinga!" at that comment, Lol.

[2Honest]

This is a really interesting discussion. Zephie, I had a lot of "spiritual experiences" as a Christian, which led me to ask many of the same questions that you are asking. I just came across this article yesterday. I didn't agree with all of it. But some of it really blew me away and helped me understand some things about what happened to me and the people around me.

 

 

http://www.shaktitechnology.com/traits.htm

[Foxy Methoxy]

Careful. You don't want to violate the DMCA.