The Silly-Putty(r) Bible

[chefranden]

Good grief - get rid of Christianity - get rid of the Bible - it won't solve the violent tendancies within the human species.

 

On the other hand keeping it won't solve anything either. I have no notion of getting rid of Christianity. I was just pointing out kinder gentler versions of Christianity are a temporary remission at best.

 

But you are right. Institutional religion doesn't create violent impulses. However, it focuses the impulses of the many onto certain select objects making them more destructive.

 

I don't hope for any end of religion. There is no reason to think that evolution will select against it. I won't make you give up cherry picking the bible in order that you may be lovable. Just don't forget the Right Reverend Fredrick Phelps and Doctor James Dobson are in the same orchard.

 

 

 

...that doesn't necessarily mean they BELIEVE what they spout - and you know it.

I'm a Wisconsian, most people have forgotten that Wisconsin is one of the States. I'm trying to forget it too. That being said this paragraph has left me out in left field picking daisies, gazing at clouds, and wondering, "why is there air."

 

Don't pretend that the violence in this world is soley due to religion (Christian or otherwise). The violence in this world is due to human beings who will use ANYTHING at their disposal to get and hold onto power (including - but not limited to - religion).

I'm not pretending. Religion doesn't cause human willingness to do harm to others. It is one of the violence lenses much akin to Patriotism. It is a nice flog available for demagogues to whip up a frenzied hate among large populations against people that pose no real threat. In addition it helps keep people trained from childhood to answer to the flog heated to the boiling point long past their natural tendency to cool off once angered.

 

And EVERY SINGLE generation of humans must work for peace and progress. Just because one generation discovers a more humane way to run a democracy, or be a capitalist, or be a Christian, or be anything else ... doesn't mean following generations will follow suite.

 

Yah, but what does this have to do with the argument? Christianity claims to be the tool for bringing about peace, but after 2000 years of use one might think, "Maybe we should try a screw-diver instead." As me olde granny useta say, "If ya keep on doing what yer done, yer gonna keep on getting what ya got." And, as it says in the Good Book, "If what the prophet says doesn't turn out to be so, kill the bastard!" -- or something to that effect.

 

So if you should meet the Christ on the road, kill him!

[Open_Minded]

I don't hope for any end of religion. There is no reason to think that evolution will select against it. I won't make you give up cherry picking the bible in order that you may be lovable. Just don't forget the Right Reverend Fredrick Phelps and Doctor James Dobson are in the same orchard.

Ahh.... Chef.... I've been around this board long enough that you should know I'm bloody well aware that Phelps and Dobson are in the same orchard.

 

...... Just like I'm bloody well aware that Bush, Chenny and Crew are in the same American Orchard.

 

Don't pretend that the violence in this world is soley due to religion (Christian or otherwise). The violence in this world is due to human beings who will use ANYTHING at their disposal to get and hold onto power (including - but not limited to - religion).

I'm not pretending. Religion doesn't cause human willingness to do harm to others. It is one of the violence lenses much akin to Patriotism.

We agree completely.

 

 

And EVERY SINGLE generation of humans must work for peace and progress. Just because one generation discovers a more humane way to run a democracy, or be a capitalist, or be a Christian, or be anything else ... doesn't mean following generations will follow suite.

Yah, but what does this have to do with the argument? Christianity claims to be the tool for bringing about peace, but after 2000 years of use one might think, "Maybe we should try a screw-diver instead."

At what point - on all my time on this board have you seen me claim that Christianity is the tool for bringing about peace? In fact, I've made it pretty well known that, my interests lie largely in the area of interfaith dialog and the work of transcending religious and cultural boundaries.

 

 

So if you should meet the Christ on the road, kill him!

 

You know chef - there's a classic amongst the Western Christian Contemplative tradition known as The Cloud of Unknowing. This classic was written by a monk to his students several hundered years ago. In it the monk discusses the need for his students to give up any and all images of Jesus-Christ in their meditations. That at a certain point - it isn't about Jesus-Christ.

 

Most people don't know this little bit of Christianity - it's been successfully hidden away for hundreds of years. But, those who are frightened by such notions can't hide them anymore. We live in the information age, the Gnostic Texts, The Cloud of Unknowing - they're all making their way to the mainstream - you can find them on Amazon.com and in Barnes and Nobel.

 

I do have hope for the future - because of this one reality - that those who would suppress human history and science (and information in general) can no longer do so.

[chefranden]

At what point - on all my time on this board have you seen me claim that Christianity is the tool for bringing about peace? In fact, I've made it pretty well known that, my interests lie largely in the area of interfaith dialog and the work of transcending religious and cultural boundaries.

 

At what point did you see me claim that you claimed Christianity is the the tool for bringing peace? I said that Christianity makes this claim -- Prince of Peace -- Lions and lambs taking naps together -- and so on.

 

You know chef - there's a classic amongst the Western Christian Contemplative tradition known as The Cloud of Unknowing. This classic was written by a monk to his students several hundered years ago. In it the monk discusses the need for his students to give up any and all images of Jesus-Christ in their meditations. That at a certain point - it isn't about Jesus-Christ.

 

Yes I do know. I read it 3 or 4 times. I've tried a good many of the world's spiritual gymnastics, Christian and none, in hopes and even expectation that I'd get in contact with the kingdom within, but all to no avail. So you see from experience I'm sort of skeptical about the "spiritual". However, I think I learned from some years of Zen practice that there is nothing more spiritual than scratching my ass when it itches.

 

I do have hope for the future - because of this one reality - that those who would suppress human history and science (and information in general) can no longer do so.

 

Now, don't kid yourself, Grasshopper. There is more suppressed information out there than either of us can imagine.

[Open_Minded]

You know chef - there's a classic amongst the Western Christian Contemplative tradition known as The Cloud of Unknowing. This classic was written by a monk to his students several hundered years ago. In it the monk discusses the need for his students to give up any and all images of Jesus-Christ in their meditations. That at a certain point - it isn't about Jesus-Christ.

Yes I do know. I read it 3 or 4 times. I've tried a good many of the world's spiritual gymnastics, Christian and none, in hopes and even expectation that I'd get in contact with the kingdom within, but all to no avail. So you see from experience I'm sort of skeptical about the "spiritual". However, I think I learned from some years of Zen practice that there is nothing more spiritual than scratching my ass when it itches.

 

I do have hope for the future - because of this one reality - that those who would suppress human history and science (and information in general) can no longer do so.

Now, don't kid yourself, Grasshopper. There is more suppressed information out there than either of us can imagine.

yes - I suppose. But, I think it can safely be said that we refer to this time as the "information age" for a reason. Information is more accessable than it has ever been - as technology improves - so will the accessability.

 

This - of course - is a two way street. Because inaccurate information flows just as easily as accurate information. And in the end it will boil down to what it has always boiled down to - both the best and the worst of humanity.

 

Is humanity more mature now than 2000 years ago. Who knows.

 

I would prefer to believe we are - but objectively speaking it's hard to know.

 

In the end I trust that most people hold things like compassion and love and peace as primary - and I hold that in time - we will seek these things beyond the tribes of race, culture, nation and religion.