Judging the spirits

[spamandham]

We are told that the spirits can be judged by what they tell you. If a spirit tells you to do something you know is wrong, then it is an evil spirit. ...seems simple enough.

 

Now for the hard part (for Christians):

 

God told Abraham to kill his son. Apparently, Abraham didn't consider sacrificing your son to god to be wrong, or he would have recognized this as an evil spirit rather than god talking to him!

 

God told Joshua to commit genocide. Same thing.

 

How can you possibly judge god from a demon when god makes the same requests a demon might make?

[thomas]

We are told that the spirits can be judged by what they tell you. If a spirit tells you to do something you know is wrong, then it is an evil spirit. ...seems simple enough.

 

Now for the hard part (for Christians):

 

God told Abraham to kill his son. Apparently, Abraham didn't consider sacrificing your son to god to be wrong, or he would have recognized this as an evil spirit rather than god talking to him!

 

God told Joshua to commit genocide. Same thing.

 

How can you possibly judge god from a demon when god makes the same requests a demon might make?

 

 

Either the writers of OT were confused and did not always know when to attribute incidents to the work of god and to the work of satan. Or, which seems to me to be a more likely explanation, the god described in OT is a very complex character, that both contains good and evil.

 

The way I read OT, the serpent in paradise represents god, who wanted his own creation to sin.

[SkepticOfBible]

Either the writers of OT were confused and did not always know when to attribute incidents to the work of god and to the work of satan. Or, which seems to me to be a more likely explanation, the god described in OT is a very complex character, that both contains good and evil.

 

The way I read OT, the serpent in paradise represents god, who wanted his own creation to sin.

 

The Jewish position is that God is creates evil and uses it for his purpose. The KJV actually translates it that way.

 

Isa 45:7 (KJV)

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

Exodus 32:14 (KJV)

14And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

 

Deuteronomy 29:21 (KJV)

21And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:

29For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

 

Deuteronomy 31:29 (KJV)

29For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

 

1 Kings 14:10 (KJV)

Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.

[Amanda]

God told Abraham to kill his son. Apparently, Abraham didn't consider sacrificing your son to god to be wrong, or he would have recognized this as an evil spirit rather than god talking to him!

 

God told Joshua to commit genocide. Same thing.

 

How can you possibly judge god from a demon when god makes the same requests a demon might make?

Good topic Spamandham!

 

Does anyone know if child sacrifices were common in those days, 6000 years ago? Were there any other gods or deities that called for human sacrifices? Abraham was supposedly the first to assert that these gods were all one God, wasn't he? So maybe sacrificing one's child was not as horrific then as today... SCARY THOUGHT!

 

I'm not familiar with the genocide instructions to Joshua. I suppose and hope it was unsuccessful! If it was unsuccessful, I'm curious as to what religous beliefs these people, to have been eradicated by Joshua, have now and what their interpretation of the story is?

[Mythra]

I'm not familiar with the genocide instructions to Joshua. I suppose and hope it was unsuccessful! If it was unsuccessful, I'm curious as to what religous beliefs these people, to have been eradicated by Joshua, have now and what their interpretation of the story is?

 

Amanda: how many Amalekites do you see walking around today?

[Megistias]

 

Does anyone know if child sacrifices were common in those days, 6000 years ago? Were there any other gods or deities that called for human sacrifices?

 

 

The god Molech comes to mind and Baal. It must have been fairly common, child sacrifices to various gods are prohibited in several parts of the OT. However, it can be understood that the emphasis of the prohibition was that the sacrifice was to a different god and not that there were child sacrifices at all.

 

 

 

So maybe sacrificing one's child was not as horrific then as today... SCARY THOUGHT!

 

But it was. SOP was to burn the children alive - at a place called a trophet (there are several identified in the region). In some cases children were buried alive at key places in Temple construction sites - foundational sacrifices.

 

It's all about cost benefit. Kill a baby, save the world. Burn your little girl to death, higher standing in the community - maybe bragging rights on how pious and god-fearing you are.

[Mythra]

How about sorting out visions and dreams, and the source of those, according to thumpers? Interesting how they sort all of this out in their minds.

 

Paul's visions: God

 

Peter's visions: God

 

Muhammed's visions: Satan

 

(Christian Science) Mary Baker Eddy's: Satan

 

(Mormonism) Joseph Smith's: Satan

 

(Jehova's Witnesses) Charles T. Russel: Satan

 

(Baha'i) Siyyid Ali-Muhammed: Satan

 

(Seventh Day Adventists) Ellen White: Satan

 

(Unification Church) Sun Myung Moon: Satan

[Godless Wonder]

Dang. I thought this thread was going to be about whiskey.

[Ssel]

We are told that the spirits can be judged by what they tell you. If a spirit tells you to do something you know is wrong, then it is an evil spirit. ...seems simple enough.

Who was telling you that?

 

The point from the Jewish stand is that it is God who determines what is "good and evil" and none else. Some of the sacrifices being referred to were merely to enforce that point. Others had other reasons. From the point of view of the Jews, it is far more important to ensure total obedience than to allow anyone to gain attachment even to theirown child. If they allowed too many to become too attached such would force God to be compromised later when a compromise might have been lethal to the entire nation.

How can you possibly judge god from a demon when god makes the same requests a demon might make?

Well, now THERE is the trick.

And that is exactly why God Himself said that He preferred that people KNOW Him to merely worshipping Him.

If you don't really know the one talking to you, then make DAMN sure before you do anything dangerous to yourself or others.

 

next question....

 

How do KNOW it was God?

 

(hint...DEFINITIONS)

[spamandham]

Who was telling you that?

 

Doesn't Paul tell us to test the spirits?

 

At any rate, it's a cop out to say "oh you can't do that when it's god talking to you", because you don't know a priori that it's god talking to you. It could be a demon masquarading as god.

 

If you don't really know the one talking to you, then make DAMN sure before you do anything dangerous to yourself or others.

 

How can you determine who is talking to you if demons are capable of appearing as an angel of light, and god is capable of commanding you to demonic behavior? You can't.

 

Even if you had a prior relationship with god, you can't know it was really god. It could have been a demon setting you up for a quandry later on.

[Ssel]

I have a certain appreciation for your "Any Gods?"

It could be a demon masquarading as god.

...

How can you determine who is talking to you if demons are capable of appearing as an angel of light, and god is capable of commanding you to demonic behavior? You can't.

That's where your wrong.

The way to know is the same way you know anything really.

If your seriously interested in knowing for sure then do the following 2 steps

 

1) Insistence on reasonable proof (believe it or not, God will be more pleased than condemning. And I don't care WHO said other wise.)

 

2) When you're on a walk late at night and a thick fog comes rolling in such that between the darkness and the clouds, you can see nothing at all, what do you do?

 

Look to your feet, feel the ground that is holding you up, step very carefully ensuring every step is solid and not bumbling into anything offensive.

 

In other words, look to your "under-standing" VERY carefully feel, think, and sense the exact accuracy of each step you take BEFORE you take it. Avoid wild guesses of what MIGHT be a solid understanding. Guide yourself by what you can be absolutely certain of, not merely what many others might believe or insist is so. Develop a very real and solid understanding of where you are and where you are going. Seek ACCURACY in your actions above all else. Not what someone has said is accurate, but what you have come to KNOW to be 100% un-doubtable. It is not only more doable than you probably think, but it is answer to ALL of the questions that man has ever asked. It takes time to find your way back out of a cloud. But if you do these 2 things VERY diligently, you will find yourself not only out of the clouds and fog, but up high on a mountain where you can see FAR more clearly all that had you lost and beguiled.

 

Obviously science took that route and methodology and look where they got.

The REAL God merely awaits those who refuse to stand on uncertain ground. This relates to the other thing about sacrifices as well.

 

((Add merely one more step to this process and seed the REAL Heaven on Earth.))

[thomas]

 

The way to know is the same way you know anything really.

If your seriously interested in knowing for sure then do the following 2 steps

 

1) Insistence on reasonable proof (believe it or not, God will be more pleased than condemning. And I don't care WHO said other wise.)

 

2) When you're on a walk late at night and a thick fog comes rolling in such that between the darkness and the clouds, you can see nothing at all, what do you do?

 

Look to your feet, feel the ground that is holding you up, step very carefully ensuring every step is solid and not bumbling into anything offensive.

 

 

Ssel

 

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying here. What kind of god are you talking about - bible god, high power, ultimate reality, or ....?

[Ssel]

Ssel

 

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying here. What kind of god are you talking about - bible god, high power, ultimate reality, or ....?

Well, I was trying to refer to the same one that spam was referring to.

 

I can get into great detail in a very serious way, but I didn't want to distract the thread. The short version would be for you to merely look at my "Any Gods?"

[Amethyst]

The REAL God merely awaits those who refuse to stand on uncertain ground. This relates to the other thing about sacrifices as well.

 

How do we know there is a "Real" god at all? There is no evidence for his, her, or its existence at all. Or do you have some sort of proof that you're not telling us about?

[Ssel]

How do we know there is a "Real" god at all? There is no evidence for his, her, or its existence at all. Or do you have some sort of proof that you're not telling us about?

Well, ok Amythyst, that's fair...

 

I could attempt to go through the long detailed and exact proof of the ENTIRE God story from nuts to bolts, but that's what they call "unscrambling the egg"

 

so rather than me attempting such, if you simply do exactly as I advised spam earlier, then it won't matter. The REAL God won't care, but that ONLY if you do EXACTLY as it said with as little error as you possibly can. You don't have to be perfect, but you will become far more perfectly correct as you go.

 

spam asked a specific question about how would you know if it was really God. But most people are not in a position to be asking that or needing to know. A more generalized version of that advice is;

 

1) Insist to yourself first, that you accept NOTHING whole heartedly nor SAY ANYTHING until you know beyond the tiniest doubt that it MUST be absolutely true. If you’re speaking to someone then you must also insist on knowing beyond reasonable doubt that they will understand your words in the exact manner you intended them yourself. To most people, that sounds impossible, but it isn't. I can go into further detail, but I suspect not many would take such seriously.

 

2) (reserved for those who bother with step (1)

[Ssel]

..and consider the following...

When_I_first_read_this_Bible_thing.doc

[Amanda]

Dang. I thought this thread was going to be about whiskey.

 

----------- -----------

 

Godless Wonder, that was a good one!

[spamandham]

I have a certain appreciation for your "Any Gods?"

 

he he. There's more to it than you might at first think - a topic for another thread perhaps.

 

The way to know is the same way you know anything really.

If your seriously interested in knowing for sure then do the following 2 steps

 

1) Insistence on reasonable proof (believe it or not, God will be more pleased than condemning. And I don't care WHO said other wise.)

 

Like what? If god is capable of resembling a demon, and demons can mimic god, then no reasonable proof is possible. If either can seem to be the other, there is no possible proof unless you can perform some sort of test on one that the other can't pass. But how could we know that we have a valid test? Any test we might perform is rooted in assumptions that might not be valid and might have been based on demonic treachery. We are outside the domain of ordinary here, and our knowledge base provides us nothing usefull.

 

2) When you're on a walk late at night and a thick fog comes rolling in such that between the darkness and the clouds, you can see nothing at all, what do you do?

 

I would tread lightly of course, but I would do so in fear, not confidence. I would not know that my next step is safe, but would simply take that chance knowing that the odds are improved by moving slowly. Yet, I could well be wrong, and I would know of that possibility. If I wasn't concerned about getting anywhere, I would just lay down and wait for the fog to pass.

 

In other words, look to your "under-standing" VERY carefully feel, think, and sense the exact accuracy of each step you take BEFORE you take it. Avoid wild guesses of what MIGHT be a solid understanding.

 

No amount of care can serve you if you are outside the domain of knowledge. All guesses become wild guesses if you deviate into the unknown.

[SkepticOfBible]

In other words, look to your "under-standing" VERY carefully feel, think, and sense the exact accuracy of each step you take BEFORE you take it. Avoid wild guesses of what MIGHT be a solid understanding. Guide yourself by what you can be absolutely certain of, not merely what many others might believe or insist is so. Develop a very real and solid understanding of where you are and where you are going. Seek ACCURACY in your actions above all else. Not what someone has said is accurate, but what you have come to KNOW to be 100% un-doubtable. It is not only more doable than you probably think, but it is answer to ALL of the questions that man has ever asked. It takes time to find your way back out of a cloud. But if you do these 2 things VERY diligently, you will find yourself not only out of the clouds and fog, but up high on a mountain where you can see FAR more clearly all that had you lost and beguiled.

 

Did the great self proclaiming apostale Paul did that.

 

In the book of Acts, Paul's experience was with a faceless shining light.

 

Acts 9:3-7

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

 

It's ironic that Paul would simply accept the faceless shining light as Jesus and ironic that he would accept it as representing God. Paul, after his conversion to Christianity, preached that God canceled(Col 2:13-14, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18) the perfect(Psa 19:7) and eternal(Psa 119:152,160) laws he gave to the Jews and replaced them with "faith" in a human sacrifice called Jesus.

 

These ideas and teachings directly contradict the Old Testament teachings which are supposed to be the word of God.

 

If Paul was determined to preach his gospel in order to secure a position of favor with God then he made a huge assumption about the faceless shining light actually being from God.

 

Paul states:

2 Cor 11:12-14

But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

Paul claims that Satan himself can assume the form of an angel of light to deceive people.

How could Paul be sure the faceless shining light and voice he experienced was actually Jesus?

Paul also had no problem thinking that he was privy to special knowledge from God himself.

 

Col 1:25-26

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

 

Since this "vision" episode was the first and only experience Paul had with "Jesus", it could just have easily been Satan pretending to be Jesus and deceiving the vain minded Paul.

 

http://www.geocities.com/b_r_a_d_99/jesusrisen.htm

[Ssel]

I started to reply to several of the details, but decided to just cut to the chase..

No amount of care can serve you if you are outside the domain of knowledge. All guesses become wild guesses if you deviate into the unknown.

 

Your “knowledge” comes from your best guess. That best guess begins with your perception of what merely appears to be. That perception is then tested by scrutinizing it to see that it is a consistent thing and to what degree. Then you decide to call it “knowledge” because it has been tested. But it didn’t begin as knowledge, but mere perception.

 

Maybe you aren’t really sitting there reading. Maybe what you’re reading isn’t really there. Maybe it meant something totally different than what you think it means. Maybe nothing exists in front of you at all. Maybe YOU don’t really exist

 

IF you have those kinds of questions or feel they have significant value then OBVIOUSLY you are in the DARK FOG.

 

The purpose of your brain/mind is to help you solve the problem of staying alive. So the only things that have any real relevance are things related to that. If you’re truly in a position where absolutely NOTHING is known at all, then your mind has no function at all and you can simply stop attempting to do anything what so ever, even going to the bathroom, reading your email, getting out of bed, or eating. Because how do you know that any of those things are happening anyway? Maybe by trying to DO them you’re really undoing them somehow, You can’t really know, huh. So why try?

 

The effort to think is just that, it’s a “effort”. It constitutes your best guess. But by “best guess”, I mean that you examine and scrutinize what you think MIGHT be true in order to mentally test it. But the end goal isn’t to find what ISN’T true, but rather what IS. Don’t get lost in the testing and forget your goal. If your life depends on making a decision, then saying “I don’t know” doesn’t help a bit. You are forced into a position of having to make your best guess. In most cases, your life isn’t being threatened, in which case avoid deciding with uncertain guesses.

 

In the analogy of the man in the dark fog, you mentioned that he could simply lay and wait. That’s right assuming that was good enough. But why did he lay? How did he know the road was beneath his feet? Maybe it really wasn’t. Maybe it really wasn’t dark. Maybe by moving at all, he was going to get into massive trouble. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe… or maybe he just has to scrutinize what little information he thinks he has and take the risks that he thinks are worth taking.

 

Realize that IF you really did that (1) posted up there for Amethyst then you would suddenly find that you have nothing of relevance to say. This is a temporary stage. But how many people have told you that “the first step to wisdom is discovering how much you really don’t know”? That step (1) up there is how you find out. BUT it is also how you begin to build your real understanding of what you DO know. No one said that you become wise by maintaining that you know nothing, but by realizing where ground zero is and that you’re at it BEFORE you start building your understanding and arguments.

 

The Taoist, the Buddhist, the Hebrew, Moses, Jesus, and about a thousand philosophers and great names throughout history have said that same thing. “You know nothing, let it go for a while. Then you will awake to the REAL enlightenment.” Realize that even today, they are telling you to realize how little you really know. "Perhaps this is true instead, perhaps that."

 

The man in the fog only had hints of what reality might be. He could feel the ground under him, but that was it. As he takes a step, does he just say “it’s all a big risk anyway, so..” and then JUMP to where his untested guess is? Nooo.. he feels carefully, testing that the step is on SOLID ground, BEFORE he puts his weight on it. His first scary realization is that he REALLY doesn’t know anything of what is in front of him. He very slowly discovers how far the road goes. Now of course it would be great if the fog would just leave and the lights would come on, but they aren’t going to for a while. If he can just go to sleep there, fine. We are assuming he has sufficient need or desire to keep going.

 

When you sleep, is when your mind returns to zero so that it can try to rebuild what might be a solid understanding for tomorrow. The “mind of Mankind” is asleep, thus he says, “How do we really know anything?” He wants everything to lose meaning just long enough for it to begin building up from ground zero. So GO to that ground zero. Help all of Mankind and do that step (1). But the mind doesn’t die, it still listens. It just stops presuming. It waits for a need to know and then a clear testing of solidity of what is perceived.

 

You need to stitch your unconscious, your subconscious, and your conscious all together into harmony. When you have done this, you will attain what they have been calling the “holy spirit” (why that is so, isn’t important). When you sleep, you do that step (1) on a subconscious level. You step into the void of silence for a short while and let a deeper spirit (effort to live) be the only life. You need to do that also when your awake so that the inner you and the conscious you can begin to relate and stitch into a harmony. This is what the Taoist refers to as the Tao. It is that step into the unknowable void. It leads to what they called the “Chi”, a totally harmonious “spirit” of your life and what the Buddhists call “enlightenment”. It causes a feeling of serenity that they perhaps unwisely called “heaven”. If you will note, the Hebrew referred to a “firmament” that divided the higher waters from the lower waters. This came to be called “heaven” as well. But note it was a “FIRMament” …solidity (not a cloud). Find the firmament, the solidity of the understanding for your thoughts and you will find that you’re in a heaven. But this is merely a heaven for and within your mind. There is another heaven, a “real” heaven in the physical.

 

They told of 7 “days” (metaphorical) for going from semi-chaos to harmonious order (creation). Another later told of merely 3 “days” that would do the job (resurrection). Those who understood, rejoiced greatly. But every step of both plans have carried the burden of slight misunderstanding in each step. Their “days” have not been wrong, merely not completely free of misunderstanding by those carrying them out. I would tell you of merely 2 “days”. But the first “day” begins as a short journey into that void of silence, a waking sleep for the mind, meditating while you walk and watch.

 

You want to argue how wrong everyone has been before you. “We have knew information today.” But realize that the information of “today” is just another day, just as all the others. If you’re going to forget the past because it is old information then why not forget today too. To me, your “today” is just another “yesterdays news”. But there is one thing that they have all said and still say today, “realize how much you don’t really know.” I am telling you this too. The difference is that I’m telling you “why”.

 

I’m not here to tell you of the errors of all those who came before you nor the errors of today. They all fell short to some slight degree. Nor am I here to tell you of who was right. They were all right to a large degree. I am here merely to “answer the question”. You asked a question. I answered it. Now it is up to you to perceive the answer and seek the solidity of it. But try to remember that you’re looking for what IS true, not merely what ISN’T and the “Who” part of it all is totally irrelevant. You find the solidity (the firmament) by seeking the ground and carefully building your foundation of understanding from there.

 

Stitch your spirit and mind into harmony. That is the first step of a total of 4 which will lock the eternal harmony in forever. I don’t really care who told you that such can’t be done. Take it as arrogance if you like, or authority. I don’t really care. Like every great building or house, it begins by clearing the growth (into the void), then a solid foundation (the firmament), and THEN the framing and rest of the mansion. Then work to prevent the corruption and corrosion (it is my "yesterdays news" that such can not be prevented).

 

Well, hell, I’m starting to preach. I’ll get off my holy soap box.

[Ssel]

Acts 9:3-7

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Just for a brief moment to perhaps clear a little air...

 

"seeing the light" means realizing a clear new understanding.

 

"hearing a voice" means discussing an issue in your mind from a different perspective than your normal.

 

"that voice answering with I am Jesus" means that he realized that this new perspective was the same as Jesus had spoken about.

 

"it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." means that he realized that all of this time he was futility fighting.

 

"what wilt thou have me to do?" means he was contemplating what that (now better) perspective would guide him to do.

 

"And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." means that he couldn't figure out how to proceed, but in the city, he could find out.

 

"hearing a voice, but seeing no man." meaning to sense a calling or urge but not being able to identify the source.

--------

 

In short, you have been reading a poetic/metaphorical story as though it was literal. Paul was not talking about a fantasy dream. He was talking about a realization that he had been fighting against the wrong cause.

 

 

Millions have said that they "have seen the light". But in this book you call the "Bible" it is not so much those speakers or writers who say that you should listen to them, but rather all of the others who say "these guys saw the REAL light"

 

But you are past the acceptance of what other's have said and what they think is wise. In everything you do, you have the choice to either accept that some other was wise enough for you to follow his advice (faith), or you decide to take the task on all on your own (the school of hard knocks)

 

If your looking for wisdom by trying to read a metaphorical book literally and focusing on how much non-sense you can find in it. Then I would think it might be best that you DONT seek wisdom all on your own. But of course, we know that you're going to anyway (if at all). Just as SO many young children who refuse any advice from the "old guys".

 

If your trying to shoot down the NT by using the OT, then I have to ask why you think the OT is right? But my reply would probably be the same. "Until you understand what they really meant by what they said, then your wasting your time in trying to point out their errors." OR was it that you felt a selfish need to prevent anyone else from avoiding the harder way? Why would you care about what is wrong if you haven't discovered what is right? And if you HAVE, then why aren't you helping them to see THAT rather than merely ensuring that they see nothing?

 

In the long run, humanity will get there anyway. The only question is whether you or any of your foundation efforts (your "soul") will be there when they do or will you still be attempting to reinvent the wheel in an endless struggle of torturous frustration (kicking against the pricks).

[Guest Guest]

If your trying to shoot down the NT by using the OT, then I have to ask why you think the OT is right? But my reply would probably be the same. "Until you understand what they really meant by what they said, then your wasting your time in trying to point out their errors." OR was it that you felt a selfish need to prevent anyone else from avoiding the harder way? Why would you care about what is wrong if you haven't discovered what is right? And if you HAVE, then why aren't you helping them to see THAT rather than merely ensuring that they see nothing

 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist, SSEL, to see that the OT beliefs and NT beliefs are contrary to one another. Christianity claims they worship the hebrew god when clearly they do not, easily proven by the text known as the bible.

[Ssel]

How many of us know by heart Proverbs 3:5? Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. So the question is, how does a Christian discern? Not how we do things.

The "faith" method was advised so as to be saved from the struggle. But faith comes from an inner perception of probability. The person of faith at some prior time had slight evidence of what or who to accept as "good enough". Later when that person is talking about hearing or seeing, first make sure he isn't talking literally or trying to impress you. If he IS talking metaphorically, then he is saying that he has "clear understanding" based on who he accepted as the good guy. But either way that faith came by a comparison of qualities. "This seems like the good thing, so I'll keep to it even though I don't really know." He has gauged by a sense of "good". If a voice later is pretending to be that voice of good, but is really a trick, then the person is in that talked about trap of being deceived. The scriptures tell you that such will happen from time to time. Faith alone will NOT save you from death. Even those who talk of faith as being able to do so argue making a presumptive statement that the person has a clear understanding of Jesus BEFORE the faith could then be enough.

 

It's all just a part of unscrambling an egg

 

What you described here helped me so much....in leaving Christianity.

I'm not here to talk you into Christianity nor to defend that you shouldn't have left. After all your really rebelling against the SCC. I can't blame you for that. I warned them of this kind of thing probably before you were born. I am here more to advise you to stop wasting your time and perhaps help get to the real point (not merely how wrong everyone ELSE is)

[Ssel]

The OT laws are very clear as Pritishd pointed out, perfect and everlasting ..

 

Surely, SURELY your not telling us that the Old Testiment has a set of truly perfect everlasting laws??

 

 

But realize Jesus said "laws make nothing perfect,... follow the HOLY spirit"

Of course you might need to actually know what that holy spirit IS. Thus the Christian has the problem of laws being more obvious and easy to judge other people by. Else the person follows A spirit, but doesn't know if it really was the HOLY one.

 

The answer to the SCC is "..KNOW your God, not merely that He IS. He has stated that he perfers understanding of him to mere worship of him, so GET TO IT. Didn't Jesus tell you that TRUTH will set you free? How can you know truth if you never SEEK it. And contemplate what the word "pray" really means while your at it before you assume that you're really doing what you have been told to do."

 

But you REALLY don't want ME to talk about the errors of the OT.

 

SCC - Santa Claus Christian

 

"Merely how wrong everyone else is"

MERELY as in doing nothing else.

[Ssel]

Who would you be then to tell me that I don't have the truth or what the truth is? You would be wasting your time telling me and others like me how I've got it wrong, so why not take your own advice and stop wasting your time?

Exactly WHEN did I tell you, SerenityNow. that YOU are wrong in your beliefs in your god(s)?

 

I have answered the question that was asked about "how do we know", "how can we tell", and even "How can THEY tell?"

 

If YOU have the holy truth for all to know, then WHY aren't you filling us in on YOUR great wisdom?? Rather than "merely telling us how wrong everyone (including ME) is?

 

YOU have claimed that the OT has "clear and perfect everlasting laws"

So your saying that YOUR belief is the same as the Jew? That you believe in the ONE God of the OT? Is that your belief? Is that why your are not explaining the REAL truth, because it is already written in the OT for us?

Or are you just supporting the OT for the sake of attempting to show how wrong someone ELSE is while never helping to explain what the RIGHT is?

 

..and I'm sure pridishd can defend himself so why don't you let him do that.