sjessen Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I have discovered that I am a Deist. I feel like I finally know where I belong with regard to my current beliefs. It feels good to fit into a "category" and know there are others who believe the same thing. I am currently learning about Deism, and all the sub-categories of Deism. I would love to connect with any Deists here and am willing to engage in some discussion on Deism. Right now, I am interested in Nature's God Deism that says that there is a god who created the universe and we learn about this being through reason, intuition, and meditation on nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 How long have you been an ex-c? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjessen Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Eight years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Ok, never mind. If you were a newbie I would think you were just trying to hold on to any type of belief in god that makes you feel more comfortable. But if you're 8 years out, you're probably past that and looking at things more critically. What makes you think a deity exists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjessen Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Short answer, we know so very little about everything that I cannot rule out the possibility of there being a god-creator. I think there is what we would call a god who created everything based on what I have observed in nature and what I know about the universe. Instead of there being complete chaos, there are mathematical rules that govern how things behave that are repeatable, predictable and understandable. To me, that implies that there is a rule-maker. This seems apparent to me through observation and reasoning of how things work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I have similar views. I hold on to the idea of some higher power. When i see the beauty in nature i think there has to be something. You could say i am clinging to some theism as im 6 months out. But i dont see the harm in it, as long as i stay out of christianity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I have similar views. I hold on to the idea of some higher power. When i see the beauty in nature i think there has to be something. You could say i am clinging to some theism as im 6 months out. But i dont see the harm in it, as long as i stay out of christianity. DITTO!!! You have a way of expressing things that are going around in my mind. I think I'll just let you speak for me from now on okay? (G) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Ex-Christian just means someone doesn't accept Christianity, not that they become atheist. sjessen: I am glad you have found some meaning and inspiration in the structure and beauty of nature. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Short answer, we know so very little about everything that I cannot rule out the possibility of there being a god-creator. I think there is what we would call a god who created everything based on what I have observed in nature and what I know about the universe. Instead of there being complete chaos, there are mathematical rules that govern how things behave that are repeatable, predictable and understandable. To me, that implies that there is a rule-maker. This seems apparent to me through observation and reasoning of how things work. There was a study just realeased, and more data to Come, that is showing we are only one universe among trillions, and that of we do have these nice little laws that govern life, it is because they were randomly created at the big bang, but there are countless other universes that may not have such laws and wouldn't have life (as we know it). I would remain skeptical. But that's just me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I have discovered that I am a Deist. I feel like I finally know where I belong with regard to my current beliefs. It feels good to fit into a "category" and know there are others who believe the same thing. I had been trying to find a 'home' for my evolving views as well and had considered whether deism was a comfortable fit or not. I think the hard thing is that a lot of these views have more meaning in the cultural context which they grew out of. Because the questions and issues of our surrounding culture is constantly changing how well these things fit us today is really the question. I can say I see some good things in Deism I relate to, but there is also not quite enough to work for me here and now. Right now, I am interested in Nature's God Deism that says that there is a god who created the universe and we learn about this being through reason, intuition, and meditation on nature. I have a profound connection to "God" or the Divine, through Nature as well, which is why I wondered is Deism a good fit for me? There is also Pantheism, Panetheism, Nature Mysticism, etc which also connect with the Divine this way. I guess the question should be if you are looking for that actual, spiritual connection? The thing with Deism is that it places God outside Nature. Unlike traditional theism which holds that God too is outside nature but intervenes within it, punching a hole into it so to speak, Deism says God is outside nature as well, but essentially walked away from it and is not punching holes into it. Where Pantheism differs is that it places the Divine as immanent within Nature, that God is not outside Nature but IS Nature itself, which means God is in everything. And there are other views as well that allows God to be immanent, present in the world without fitting traditional theism with a miracle-perform deity 'out there', whereas Deism does not to my understanding. So again the real question is what are you hoping to glean for yourself personally in relation to the question of the nature of the Divine? To hear you say you meditate to me generally suggests you are looking to have a personal connection, as I understand it. Does deism offer that direct connection, that immediate realization of God in the personal experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Short answer, we know so very little about everything that I cannot rule out the possibility of there being a god-creator. I think there is what we would call a god who created everything based on what I have observed in nature and what I know about the universe. Instead of there being complete chaos, there are mathematical rules that govern how things behave that are repeatable, predictable and understandable. To me, that implies that there is a rule-maker. This seems apparent to me through observation and reasoning of how things work. There was a study just realeased, and more data to Come, that is showing we are only one universe among trillions, and that of we do have these nice little laws that govern life, it is because they were randomly created at the big bang, but there are countless other universes that may not have such laws and wouldn't have life (as we know it). I would remain skeptical. But that's just me. That is my view too, its why I don't find things like the cosmological or fine tuning arguement convincing. We don't even know enough to say if there is evidence for those arguments as far as I understand. Its one of the main reasons I am not a deist today. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjessen Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Thank you guys so much for your comments as I am very much in a process at the moment and am trying to figure out what I believe since I am no longer Christian. You have been very kind. (I thought I would get blasted for being such a dummy!) Anyway, I was pretty content for many years not even thinking about God, but I think I was drawn to this site because it is time to evaluate my spirituality. It is so very important to me. I have been on a spiritual journey all my life and it is the one thing I am really into without question. I hear what you guys are saying about the evidence. It just isn't there. I think that's where the intuition part of Deism comes in, where you take what you observe and then intuitively "know" something without it being a fact yet. I don't see this as being the same thing as "faith" (as Christians use the term). It's an extrapolation based on evidence to date. A theory that makes sense to the observer to explain the observations. Working out the theory is up to each person (according to Deism). Deists use nature and the universe to ponder God and I haven't done a lot of that yet as I am new to this whole idea. I know I am amazed at the "lessons" of nature. I don't even know what kind of Deist I am. I know I am not the activist kind actively engaging people to try to convert them. To me, that is somewhat hypocritical. Nature doesn't do that, nature just is and it is in it's being that we are drawn to it. Antlerman, nice to meet you! I will have to investigate Pantheism, etc that you talk about. I don't really meditate. I should have said "ponder" or "think on" nature. I don't really think that God created things and then disappeared as some Deists believe, so I need to consider what makes sense to me. I like the idea that God is still around. I don't quite get the whole idea of everything being one. I'm a little skeptical of meditation. I prefer to be in my "normal" mind when I make decisions. I think any evidence worth accepting has to be repeatable and observable by anyone, and the reports of people who say they have meditated and had the sensation of everything as being one are interesting, but I haven't seen that for myself yet. I guess I'm too analytical. McDaddy, I will have to think about what you mentioned about the many universes concept. Very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 But are unjustified beliefs worth believing in. I don't see how science or history could ever prove a miracle, or there being a valid fine tuning or cosmological arguement, but does that mean I should believe in the supernatural as a default position. No. There at least should be a good reason for belief. Even if you can't put in a test tube or test it by the scientific method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 To me, a our "world" expands, we keep thinking we'll find God "out there" but never do. We climb above the clouds.....no god. Outer space.....no god. Out of the galaxy.... No god. Out of this universe (?)....... No god. I see a trend. Unless there's a non physical "dimension" he's playing hide and seek in, "he" doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjessen Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 So again the real question is what are you hoping to glean for yourself personally in relation to the question of the nature of the Divine? To hear you say you meditate to me generally suggests you are looking to have a personal connection, as I understand it. Does deism offer that direct connection, that immediate realization of God in the personal experience? I think I am just on a journey to find the truth. To know what is. I am a curious person by nature and I like to understand how things work. I suppose that means I am hoping to glean for myself knowledge. I'm not so much looking for a personal connection, although I would not reject that. I think I had my fill of having a "personal relationship" with God in Christianity and it went so badly that I'm not really looking for that now. Sort of a "fool me once, shame on you..." thing. I am very slow at attributing qualities to this creator such as love and interest in human affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsRoper Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I am so glad you brought up this topic. I think I am still in that ex-christian stage where I have given up on all organized forms of spirituality. I told a friend recently that I think I could be a deist, but I don't know about it enough to commit to it yet. On the other hand, what Antlerman says above makes intuitive sense to me. I think my concept of spirituality/god has become that all living things in the universe are connected, so I may be a natural pantheist. I remember discussing this in Systematic Theology while I was in seminary and NOT being totally offended by pantheism, ha, ha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjessen Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 To me, a our "world" expands, we keep thinking we'll find God "out there" but never do. We climb above the clouds.....no god. Outer space.....no god. Out of the galaxy.... No god. Out of this universe (?)....... No god. I see a trend. Unless there's a non physical "dimension" he's playing hide and seek in, "he" doesn't exist. "I see a pattern, but my imagination cannot picture the maker of that pattern. I see a clock, but I cannot envision the clockmaker. The human mind is unable to conceive of the four dimensions, so how can it conceive of a God, before whom a thousand years and a thousand dimensions are as one?" (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p. 208) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjessen Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 I am so glad you brought up this topic. I think I am still in that ex-christian stage where I have given up on all organized forms of spirituality. I told a friend recently that I think I could be a deist, but I don't know about it enough to commit to it yet. On the other hand, what Antlerman says above makes intuitive sense to me. I think my concept of spirituality/god has become that all living things in the universe are connected, so I may be a natural pantheist. I remember discussing this in Systematic Theology while I was in seminary and NOT being totally offended by pantheism, ha, ha. I tried to give you an up vote, but it's 9:30am and I've already reached my limit! I'm so glad this is of interest to you too! I can definitely see a connection in all living things. We evolved together and are all made of the same "stuff" and in even the animals I sense a kindredness. I definitely feel we are connected. There are a couple of websites that give a lot of good information on Deism and Pantheism. Positive Deism is one. There is a Diesm Alliance of websites dedicated to educating people about Deism and promoting it. There are eight or so sites in the Alliance. I'm going to try to become a member of the Alliance. You have to first be a member of the Positive Deism site to be considered in the Alliance. The Diest Alliance site is: http://deistalliance.org/ you can get to all the other sites from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted June 19, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2012 I have leanings toward pantheism as well. Some eastern mysticism appeals to me. I don't see it as supernatural, just natural phenomena which require training in order to detect and consciously participate with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjessen Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 One of the verses in the Bible that always struck me talks about how God is the power by whom all things consist (are held together). Maybe that is a Pantheist statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted June 19, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2012 One of the verses in the Bible that always struck me talks about how God is the power by whom all things consist (are held together). Maybe that is a Pantheist statement? That statement still treats God as a separate entity controlling nature. Pantheism states that God is nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjessen Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 But are unjustified beliefs worth believing in. I don't see how science or history could ever prove a miracle, or there being a valid fine tuning or cosmological arguement, but does that mean I should believe in the supernatural as a default position. No. There at least should be a good reason for belief. Even if you can't put in a test tube or test it by the scientific method. I'm not talking about the god of the Jews or Christians or Muslims. I'm not talking about miracles other than just the miracle of creation as I see it. I agree, there should be a good reason for belief. Einstein likens the reason for believing there is a creator to being able to hear "the music of the spheres". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjessen Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 One of the verses in the Bible that always struck me talks about how God is the power by whom all things consist (are held together). Maybe that is a Pantheist statement? That statement still treats God as a separate entity controlling nature. Pantheism states that God is nature. Ah... So it would be more of a Deist statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted June 19, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2012 "What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos." (Albert Einstein to Joseph Lewis, Apr. 18, 1953) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Consciousness, intelligence, cognitive functions, decisions, free will, all of it requires a structure or scaffolding, which means a couple of things: a sort of physical structure by matter and energy, a temporal structure, and some form of space to be in. And the reason is that the things of the mind needs a process. We think because we process. The process is the thinking. But a process needs a scaffolding. But this also means God must also be this way. Therefore, I think a God with a consciousness, etc is a poor explanation for the universe, unless it can be proven that intelligence and decision making can be done without a process (time, space, matter, energy). And NDEs are bad examples since they (if they're really true) are temporal and would have to be some form of physical (the ability to see is a reaction and process of light, light is physical). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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