Modern Deism, Nature's God

[sjessen]

I realize this. I still think the query on how long she "had been out" was unwarranted, and the assumption that, given time, every thinking person arrives at atheism, is short-sighted and biased.

 

It was a bad argument and a poor line of questioning. I ignored it.

 

You're a better (at least more patient) person than I. The "you just haven't grown up and become an atheist yet" stance continues to drive me bugshit.

 

I'm glad to hear you say this, Luna. I have been getting that feeling around here too, something like, "it's just a matter of time before a person sees the light and realizes there is no god". As it has been pointed out, this isn't an atheist site, it's an ex-Christian site.

[Denyoz]

Interesting thread. sjessen, I'm Denyoz, I don't think we have met. *virtual handshake*

 

I was on another thread yesterday discussing whether or not love was divine, so I missed this one. So I just have a simple question: Do you think that Nature's God is love? Of course, nature nurtures us, so it somewhat cares, but volcanoes seem to want to destroy us, so the two sorta cancel out each other. Yet humans value love, idealize it, follow it, preach it, praise it, as if it was a god. Is the essence of the God you believe in love (nurturing)? or hatred (destroying)? or a perfect balance of both?

 

I was also asking why believing that God loves me makes me happier.

[sjessen]

Ex-Christian just means someone doesn't accept Christianity, not that they become atheist.

 

sjessen: I am glad you have found some meaning and inspiration in the structure and beauty of nature.

 

Thank you for making that statement! Ex-Christian doesn't equal atheist!

 

I appreciate your kind words, too. Yes, I do find meaning and inspiration in nature. It continually amazes me and fills me with awe and wonder.

[raoul]

I have similar views. I hold on to the idea of some higher power. When i see the beauty in nature i think there has to be something.

 

You could say i am clinging to some theism as im 6 months out. But i dont see the harm in it, as long as i stay out of christianity.

DITTO!!! You have a way of expressing things that are going around in my mind. I think I'll just let you speak for me from now on okay? (G)

 

This really tickles me, Raoul. I am glad to know others on this site who have similar leanings. Thanks for sharing. I'd be interested in knowing more of your thoughts if you care to share.

Nothing much to share I guess. I'm a theist with an agnostic bent who has totally and completely rejected the Christian doctrines. This was something in the works for years. Probably the Bart Ehrmann books finally did it for me especially where he painstakenly shows how the fundies (he calls them 'proto-orthodox believers) back in the early centuries actually CHANGED, ADDED, & DISTORTED certain bible verses to push various doctrines down believers' throats. I'd made a multi part YouTube series about this a while ago.

[sjessen]

Interesting thread. sjessen, I'm Denyoz, I don't think we have met. *virtual handshake*

 

I was on another thread yesterday discussing whether or not love was divine, so I missed this one. So I just have a simple question: Do you think that Nature's God is love? Of course, nature nurtures us, so it somewhat cares, but volcanoes seem to want to destroy us, so the two sorta cancel out each other. Yet humans value love, idealize it, follow it, preach it, praise it, as if it was a god. Is the essence of the God you believe in love (nurturing)? or hatred (destroying)? or a perfect balance of both?

 

I was also asking why believing that God loves me makes me happier.

 

Hi Denyoz {virtual handshake returned} It is nice to meet you! I will have to read the thread you were on yesterday. Sounds very interesting!

 

I am so glad you asked this question. The answer I have come up with regarding what we would consider "catastrophes" or "acts of god" (ironic term!) that destroy human life and wreak havoc on what we have created is that this is just the Earth being the Earth. Volcanoes, tornadoes, hurricanes, etc. are not purposeful acts of aggression from nature or God, they are simply the workings of the planet we evolved on. We just have the unfortunate circumstance of being in the path of these events. For example, the fires raging in Colorado, it is terrible that people have lost their homes, but I saw a news show where a woman who's house was in danger said that they knew the risks (of fire) when they chose to build there. I think if we had more respect for the planet, we wouldn't place ourselves in harm's way.

 

I think maybe I am not answering your real question here, which I suspect is, why do bad things happen if God is loving. If God were loving, we would live peacefully in perfect health to an old age and then die in our sleep. What's up with all the disease and tragedies, etc? If God made nature, why did he also make things that can hurt us?

 

All I can think of at the moment is this is all coming from our point of view. Like we are the most important thing/being on the planet. Maybe we aren't. Maybe we're just travelers here like every other organism on the planet. We are self-aware and intelligent, but what do we really know about the other animals? We think we are so much more valuable than anything else, but this may not be the case!

 

After my experiences with Christianity, I am very slow to assign attributes to God, so I am reluctant to say whether he/she/it is loving or not. I would surmise God loves life. Whether he loves us, don't know. We've sorta made a mess of things on this planet, I think. That might not set too kindly with God.

 

Short answer, I think when we stop looking at things from a human-centered point of view, things look a whole lot different.

[Ouroboros]

I have been trying to find where I read about this and can't seem to locate it, but there is a group of pantheists who have leanings toward Tao.

Tao and pantheism interests me too.

[sjessen]

I have similar views. I hold on to the idea of some higher power. When i see the beauty in nature i think there has to be something.

 

You could say i am clinging to some theism as im 6 months out. But i dont see the harm in it, as long as i stay out of christianity.

DITTO!!! You have a way of expressing things that are going around in my mind. I think I'll just let you speak for me from now on okay? (G)

 

This really tickles me, Raoul. I am glad to know others on this site who have similar leanings. Thanks for sharing. I'd be interested in knowing more of your thoughts if you care to share.

Nothing much to share I guess. I'm a theist with an agnostic bent who has totally and completely rejected the Christian doctrines. This was something in the works for years. Probably the Bart Ehrmann books finally did it for me especially where he painstakenly shows how the fundies (he calls them 'proto-orthodox believers) back in the early centuries actually CHANGED, ADDED, & DISTORTED certain bible verses to push various doctrines down believers' throats. I'd made a multi part YouTube series about this a while ago.

 

Ehrmann's books were a huge help to my de-conversion as well. The fact that he had been a fundie to begin with and then came to the knowledge through investigation that the scriptures are a creation of man really made me think and I felt much more comfortable in my thoughts that the bible is not god-made. I have not read his other books, just Misquoting Jesus. Do you like his other book(s)?

[Denyoz]

I would surmise God loves life. Whether he loves us, don't know. We've sorta made a mess of things on this planet, I think. That might not set too kindly with God.

 

I would agree with that. I remember stating on another thread that the essence of my being is life, not love. But we also concluded yesterday that: to love one another makes us happier.

[sjessen]

I don't know for sure about the patterns Einstein is speaking of, but it sounds to me like he might have been speaking in general terms, patterns=pattern maker.

 

Einstein's dead so I can't ask him. I was asking you, my friend. What patterns do you see that leads you to the inference?

 

The fact that there are laws that govern life is probably the biggie for me. For example, the laws that determine how atoms behave and laws that limit what substances will form naturally. We know when we go against these laws, we get into trouble.

[sjessen]

I would surmise God loves life. Whether he loves us, don't know. We've sorta made a mess of things on this planet, I think. That might not set too kindly with God.

 

I would agree with that. I remember stating on another thread that the essence of my being is life, not love. But we also concluded yesterday that: to love one another makes us happier.

 

A big AGREE there! It not only makes us happier, we need love to survive. Babies that are not given love and touching either die or don't thrive well. Love is essential to life.

[raoul]

 

Ehrmann's books were a huge help to my de-conversion as well. The fact that he had been a fundie to begin with and then came to the knowledge through investigation that the scriptures are a creation of man really made me think and I felt much more comfortable in my thoughts that the bible is not god-made. I have not read his other books, just Misquoting Jesus. Do you like his other book(s)?

Sure do although I really had to take my time going through them especially 'the Orthodox Corruption of Scripture'. I'd studied that one and then relied on another one which I can't find in my house - musta misplaced it but it was the one which mirrored the one cited here. It was like an outline to the corruption one and easier to interpret for YouTube people. I also have 'Lost Scriptures, books that didn't make it into the NT' and the lastest one I'm going to begin reading in the next couple of weeks - 'Did Jesus Exist?' which he says yes at least in the historical sense.

[TrueFreedom]

I enjoy most of Ehrman's books and courses. I was disappointed in God's Problem, especially since it was based on what he claims to be the cause of his deconversion. The reviews and criticisms of Did Jesus Exist? and his responses to them don't exactly have me convinced that I want to buy that one either. He wrote a few more advanced books prior to publishing in a more popular format over the past few years.

[raoul]

I enjoy most of Ehrman's books and courses. I was disappointed in God's Problem, especially since it was based on what he claims to be the cause of his deconversion. The reviews and criticisms of Did Jesus Exist? and his responses to them don't exactly have me convinced that I want to buy that one either. He wrote a few more advanced books prior to publishing in a more popular format over the past few years.

Did you ever catch any of his debates over on YouTube? He's devastating in the logical formulation of his arguments.

[TrueFreedom]

I enjoy most of Ehrman's books and courses. I was disappointed in God's Problem, especially since it was based on what he claims to be the cause of his deconversion. The reviews and criticisms of Did Jesus Exist? and his responses to them don't exactly have me convinced that I want to buy that one either. He wrote a few more advanced books prior to publishing in a more popular format over the past few years.

Did you ever catch any of his debates over on YouTube? He's devastating in the logical formulation of his arguments.

Yes. He's a scholar. He just seems to have taken a lazy, flippant approach to mythicism. I don't subscribe to mythicism either, but it doesn't appear from the criticisms of his book that he answered their arguments. I think Jesus, Interrupted and Misquoting Jesus are excellent, btw.

[FeelHappy]

I have not read his other books, just Misquoting Jesus. Do you like his other book(s)?

 

 

I'm actually in the process of reading 6 of his books right now (I have book ADD).

 

 

I'd highly recommend Jesus, Interrupted, it's excellent, I like it more than Misquoting Jesus (although both are great).

[FeelHappy]

Yes. He's a scholar. He just seems to have taken a lazy, flippant approach to mythicism. I don't subscribe to mythicism either, but it doesn't appear from the criticisms of his book that he answered their arguments. I think Jesus, Interrupted and Misquoting Jesus are excellent, btw.

 

I felt that his previous book Forged was somewhat lazy as well, it seemed very redundant, he covered much of the same forged stuff before in Lost Christianities and Jesus, Interrupted, I guess I'd rather have more reasons why he thinks those books are forged than why ancients hated forgeries.

[sjessen]

Well, I didn't know about all these different --ism classifications. So far from my readings, I am more a Panentheist at the moment. I don't think God is completely separate from nature (Deism), like he made it then disappeared. But I am having a hard time with Pantheism, where God and Nature are the same thing. I am still leaning toward there being an entity who created nature and infuses nature, but is not necessarily nature itself (Panentheism).

 

I also believe that there is an a part of us that lives on past death, but I have funny ideas about that that I got from reading Journey of Souls and Destiny of Souls which says that we are actually a duality of human and soul. The soul, or conscious energy being lives on. The soul, according to these books, is what we call "me". It is the "I" we refer to. It's what makes up the non-physical aspect of our being.

 

So anyway, I have to change my original statement and say I am not a Deist. I thought that I fit in that category, but I misunderstood what they believed. I'm going to refrain from saying I'm a Panentheist, 'cause I'm just learning about that and the other --ism beliefs, This thread has been most enlightening and I want to thank all who contributed here. I feel like every day I learn more and am gaining more understanding of myself and this world we live in!

[Ouroboros]

I feel like every day I learn more and am gaining more understanding of myself and this world we live in!

Love it.

 

That's what it's all about.

 

γνῶθι σεαυτόν

[Rev R]

I feel like every day I learn more and am gaining more understanding of myself and this world we live in!

 

It's not the destination, but the journey. Have fun.

[sjessen]

I feel like every day I learn more and am gaining more understanding of myself and this world we live in!

 

It's not the destination, but the journey. Have fun.

 

Thanks!!

[Antlerman]

Well, I didn't know about all these different --ism classifications. So far from my readings, I am more a Panentheist at the moment. I don't think God is completely separate from nature (Deism), like he made it then disappeared. But I am having a hard time with Pantheism, where God and Nature are the same thing. I am still leaning toward there being an entity who created nature and infuses nature, but is not necessarily nature itself (Panentheism).

 

I also believe that there is an a part of us that lives on past death, but I have funny ideas about that that I got from reading Journey of Souls and Destiny of Souls which says that we are actually a duality of human and soul. The soul, or conscious energy being lives on. The soul, according to these books, is what we call "me". It is the "I" we refer to. It's what makes up the non-physical aspect of our being.

 

So anyway, I have to change my original statement and say I am not a Deist. I thought that I fit in that category, but I misunderstood what they believed. I'm going to refrain from saying I'm a Panentheist, 'cause I'm just learning about that and the other --ism beliefs, This thread has been most enlightening and I want to thank all who contributed here. I feel like every day I learn more and am gaining more understanding of myself and this world we live in!

This is really great seeing the sharing of information and the value its adding for you. As I said at the outset myself, I too looked at could I be a Deist question. You're going a similar exploration as I did.

 

I've kind of learned that I fit many categories so I don't really try to say I'm this one thing or that. When it comes to a theistic view, I would say Panetheism fits best for me. In a nutshell it means God in transcendence, and God in immanence. It's essentially theism and pantheism together, without being either. That I like a lot when envisioning God. That said however, ultimately I don't believe their is a distinction, and I would hold a nondualist view (which is a contradiction just to say).

 

You said before that to consider these things like this causes a certain cognitive dissonance. I'm not sure that's the right term exactly but I get the gist, and I agree. It should. It cannot be fathomed with reason and logic, as at those levels it moves towards a paradox. It's in accepting that paradox, and to use my way of saying it, fall back into Her, that an understanding comes. It is in letting go of trying to grasp and possess it that you find it. You simply seek to know it for what it is, in its being, its essence. In that you find your true Self.

[sjessen]

This is really great seeing the sharing of information and the value its adding for you.

 

Please be assured, this site has been of tremendous value to me (and if I may say so, I think it has been for others as well). Not only for sharing my stories and what I have learned de-converting, but also helping me to continue on my path. Thank you for all you do here at ex-Christian dot com, Antlerman! It is very much appreciated! (I even made a donation out of gratitude!)

[FeelHappy]

Well, I didn't know about all these different --ism classifications. So far from my readings, I am more a Panentheist at the moment. I don't think God is completely separate from nature (Deism), like he made it then disappeared. But I am having a hard time with Pantheism, where God and Nature are the same thing. I am still leaning toward there being an entity who created nature and infuses nature, but is not necessarily nature itself (Panentheism).

 

 

If I were ever to move away from being a non-theist then I think Panentheism is what I'd most likely go to, in fact I might be there already.

 

I've kind of learned that I fit many categories so I don't really try to say I'm this one thing or that. When it comes to a theistic view, I would say Panetheism fits best for me. In a nutshell it means God in transcendence, and God in immanence. It's essentially theism and pantheism together, without being either. That I like a lot when envisioning God. That said however, ultimately I don't believe their is a distinction, and I would hold a nondualist view (which is a contradiction just to say).

 

One major caveat though, I don't believe in a theistic deity (meaning one that intervenes with mankind), the deity I might accept would set the laws of nature into place but could not and would not alter them, to alter them would be to show that he made mistakes while setting them in place, I'd take a spinozian view (assuming that I understand at all what his view is)....

 

but the more I think about it, I'm probably a spiritual non-theist.

[sjessen]

Well, I didn't know about all these different --ism classifications. So far from my readings, I am more a Panentheist at the moment. I don't think God is completely separate from nature (Deism), like he made it then disappeared. But I am having a hard time with Pantheism, where God and Nature are the same thing. I am still leaning toward there being an entity who created nature and infuses nature, but is not necessarily nature itself (Panentheism).

 

 

If I were ever to move away from being a non-theist then I think Panentheism is what I'd most likely go to, in fact I might be there already.

 

I didn't even know these options were available! I heard about Pantheism in church, but of course in the most derogatory terms. I don't recall ever knowing about Panentheism.

 

Good luck on your journey of discovery!

 

What do you mean when you refer to yourself as a non-theist? I took that to mean you didn't believe there is a God. Have you decided you think there is a god?

[FeelHappy]

What do you mean when you refer to yourself as a non-theist? I took that to mean you didn't believe there is a God. Have you decided you think there is a god?

 

I'm not sure that these definitions are really great but here's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheism "rejection of theism or any belief in a personal god or gods"

 

Basically I take the term theistic to be:

"Belief in the existence of a god or gods,especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world."

With this I'm pretty certain that there if there is a deity it isn't a direct creator or ruler of the world and its certainly not personal.

 

 

But atheistic to be "a lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods" -- this doesn't fully define me because I'm I think there might be a spiritual element or connection inside us.

 

So I slightly lean towards a panenthistic side but I'm agnostic towards it (confused yet?)

 

Anyways I believe that as humans we definitely have a spiritual side, I don't know if this is an encounter with the numinous or just a malfunction during our evolution, my emotions would like it to be the former, but my mind thinks is probably the latter.

 

-- Edit sorry about the poor formatting I can't get it to accept my changes --