Ravenstar Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 okay If not one jot nor tittle of the law (613 OT laws) was supposed to 'pass away' how would that work with accepting jesus' sacrifice for sin? follow me here... orthodox jews have a very strict code of adherence and in biblical times it was even stricter...so... what would you bring to the temple? How would you observe the jubilees and all that? This boggles my mind. HOW would you even know what god meant by 'sin' if you didn't refer to the laws?(OT) kind of arbitrary isn't it? If the bible is the infallible word of god and one is to call themselves christian shouldn't they follow every last one of it's precepts? How is it possible to reject some of it but not all of it yet still claim it's the inspired word of god? (can i do that with my countries laws.. if I intend well?) Why is it that at the height of christian rule in the world there was more ignorance, cruelty, poverty, disease and tyranny than at any other time in history? (dark ages) how does this 'witness' FOR christianity? How come people forget that Abraham (Abram) was actually from Ur (Sumerian/Akkadian/Babylonian?) and that the Genesis story is a blatant rip-off of the Enuma Elish of Babylonia? He wasn't Canaanite at all. Do people know that yahweh was a local mountain/storm god to the Canaanites? Part of a pantheon? Do they know that he had a wife (consort)? Shouldn't christians know this if they study their holy book? and for fun... Have you seen scarier looking people than televangelists? (Jack Van Impe and his wife are great examples.. shudder) Why does Jesus look like a white hippie? He WAS semitic, right? I have more, but this is a start. Thanks! If this belongs somewhere else.. sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 It looks like you are on the right track. Christianity tried to gain legitimacy by pretending that it was a continuation of Judaism. But as your questions above point out there are many ways in which Christianity is a new religion completely incompatible with Judaism. This is a trend among religions. New ones try to steal legitimacy from older ones, often incorporating or cannibalizing concepts from the older religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 its just ancient superstition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 19, 2012 Author Share Posted September 19, 2012 Thank you The more I look the weirder it gets I really can't make sense of it and I am trying just to get rid of the nagging existential guilt it leaves hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene39 Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 The followers of Christianity do not realize this, but Jesus did not start Christianity, neither would he have ever considered being a Christian, had that existed then, since Christianity is a blatant violation of the Shema - a very basis belief that God is One. Secondly, Judaism is a religious system of works versus Christianity which is a religious system of grace. As far as Abraham, Genesis, Yahweh, etc., you've pretty well nailed it. You will find that very few Christians read their Bible much. I read the Bible through in a year, because I thought it would be good for my faith. You can see how well that worked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 I love this so simple god is one, basic hebrew concept. (alpha and omega pretty much covers that, doesn't it?) The jews (religious) must be mystified that christianity claims to be a 'fulfillment' of their tradition (and a little insulted I would think)and I only know a little about judaism. I think it would be fascinating to have a rabbi come and explain some of the Torah (OT) Ancient hebrew is very different from english, and some things don't even have english equivalents or concepts to translate to. I hear rabbi's are quite well-educated in their texts and in their original language. Of course that is hearsay on my part as i haven't had the opportunity. I studied the bible fairly extensively... which is why I am here I guess... the very first thing which made me say to myself, wtf? was the "let US make man in OUR image' (Elohim- plural form of deity) who were they? and why was god talking to equals? Thank you for your replies! I'm learning so much here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Because originally Yahweh was part of a pantheon of gods. Google/Wikipedia "ugaritic texts" or "Canaanite pantheon" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 HOW would you even know what god meant by 'sin' if you didn't refer to the laws?(OT) kind of arbitrary isn't it? I've always wondered how God's people knew what was or was not sin before he gave them the law in Exodus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted September 20, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 20, 2012 The way that I used to explain that OP away was that when Jesus gave up his spirit on the cross with the statement "it is finished" everything was accomplished. Of course, heaven and earth did not pass away, and that point always bothered me, but that's how I explained not having to follow the law. That combined with Peter's vision with the pork, which was actually about accepting gentiles. Yah, it's a mind-fuck. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I've always wondered how God's people knew what was or was not sin before he gave them the law in Exodus. Or how Noah was supposed to know the difference between clean and unclean animals before the Law. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 Oh! good points! i missed those ones altogether wait.. okay, so before the law, and also BEFORE the fall, it get's even stranger what does happen to all those people before the law? (I remember being told that god's law is written in our hearts—so why the tablets then? convenient emotional answers that don't hold up to logical scrutiny are rampant aren't they?) and who did Cain marry? Wasn't he exiled? To where? and who was there?, where did they come from? did they have the law as well? Then there is the whole incest thing....ick! and if god had a perfect plan from the beginning... why the flood? seems like a glitch, or maybe just a bad day for the almighty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Originally the gods were angry beings that would toss disasters at us and we would appease with burnt offerings. For a good example of the weakness of a bronze age god read Judges 19-21. The first thing that jumps out at you about this story is that it's purpose is to justify having a king. See what happens when you don't have a king? The story begins and ends with the moral that in those days they had no king. I can't imagine why a real divine being would need a human king but I can think of many reasons why a human king would need the fear of a divine being to keep his subjects in line and obedient. As you read this story ask yourself if a 21st century Predator Drone operated by the United States Air Force had been there could the outcome have been different. That is to say isn't a machine that we have today more powerful than the god in this story? The Predator drone can take photos and video in both day and night. The Predator can track criminals. And while a Predator drone often does cause collateral damage this is usually a few innocent people, not an entire city let alone an entire tribe (nation?). The only role god plays is when the priest asks god "Who shall attack first". Notice how the question seems like a multiple choice? That is because back then they often asked the gods questions while drawing lots. It's like rolling dice or asking a Magic 8 ball a question. If the priest didn't include a stick that said "don't attack" then the god couldn't say that. And as the story builds in large scale bloodshed and rape try to remember that the thing that got the ball rolling was that two women were the original victims. How many innocent people would God kill to avenge two victims? Is it justice to create thousands of victims to make up for the original crime? But again I can imagine a human king waging a war of genocide and needing to blame it on god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 and who did Cain marry? Wasn't he exiled? To where? and who was there?, where did they come from? did they have the law as well? If one takes the Bible literally, then Cain would have had to have married a sister, since there wouldn't have been any other people outside their family. However, it also says (in Genesis 4) that Cain built a city in Nod, but why build a whole city for just his family? The ancient stories don't really fit together very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 Thanks! awesome info interesting... predator drones, modern medicine, technology; the internet seems a pretty effective communication tool... Humans are kind of amazing I'd be REALLY impressed if even one of the books of the bible had been written in binary! Of course i can hear them now... "maybe that's what the bible meant when it predicted we would 'do more than this' ", referring to Jesus' words about how to 'identify' true believers... sigh. Making the facts fit the myth... is there a term for that? it seems we can do more than this god has (eradicate disease—eg: smallpox) as much as i despise war.. the drones are a good example of a more 'civilized' warfare. I'm not sure why people insist on giving god credit for human ingenuity? haha... concerning incest— maybe the genetic inbreeding explains it all There was a verse.. not sure where it was, about there being two different groups of humans.. goats and sheep... Is it normal to begin to feel anti-theist when this process begins? I watched a video by Greta Christina last night on youtube about athiest anger, sadly, I agree with her. Geez... i never would have expected that. On a different (and sorry for going off topic a little) note... NASA says it may be able to create a Warp bubble! too cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Thank you The more I look the weirder it gets I really can't make sense of it and I am trying just to get rid of the nagging existential guilt it leaves hmmm It works because it contradicts and confuses. It keeps you guessing, and as such trapped until you just step back and look at it objectively. E.g., Solomon said, eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow you will die and the Paul comes along and says pick up your cross and suffer you fool! Paul says you are forgiven by grace and then Peter? comes along and says you must work for your salvation. It's a hamster wheel that goes nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 An add the circular reasoning; The bible is true because its the word of god—god is true because the bible says so—The bible is true because its the word of god—god is true because the bible says so—The bible is true because its the word of god—god is true because the bible says so—The bible is true because its the word of god—god is true because the bible says so wow... just lost a brain cell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 An add the circular reasoning; The bible is true because its the word of god—god is true because the bible says so—The bible is true because its the word of god—god is true because the bible says so—The bible is true because its the word of god—god is true because the bible says so—The bible is true because its the word of god—god is true because the bible says so wow... just lost a brain cell! <-- Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 That's awesome.. and a little surreal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 first of all...the world is a lie! Satan has turned this world to his footstool of lies. You should thank your God for that! you believe the person on your left and dismiss the person on your right, how do you know the person on your left is telling the truth? the greatest question- what is truth? The greatest question-are you telling the truth? I've never heard of Enuma Elish of Babylonia? what is it? You should know. You not knowing proves that you've taken the easy path to understanding. Know everything before you claim to know everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 first of all...the world is a lie! Satan has turned this world to his footstool of lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Um, Xino, if you act like an idiot, then don't get shocked if people treat you like one. I mean for fuck's sake man, it can't be that hard to educate yourself rather than demand everybody take time out of their day. Oh, and your god was actually married. To a nice goddess named IIRC Asherah. He had a father-god in his pantheon and siblings. He had kids and everything. You know, before the Hebrews decided to go monotheistic and all and trash all their other gods and just go with a mashup of several of 'em. But I'm sure this comes as no surprise to you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Enuma Elish is the flood myth that predates the one in the bible (Noah's flood). Genesis is a rip off of several stories from other religions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Pretty much everything *in* that moldy book of threats and fairy tales was a ripoff of something way cooler from an earlier religion. And I include the NT in that assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 first of all...the world is a lie! Satan has turned this world to his footstool of lies. No such thing as a Satan. you believe the person on your left and dismiss the person on your right, how do you know the person on your left is telling the truth? the greatest question- what is truth? Smart adult people dont have to rely wholly on what other people say. They analyze information and using past experiences, come to their own conclusions. Young children (and christians) believe everything someone tells them. I've never heard of Enuma Elish of Babylonia? what is it? how do you know it isn't a lie just like the bible? again what is truth? who had a wife? Jesus had a wife? from the recent discovery? yes I read my bible and it doesn't mention he had a wife. Jesus is coming back, coming back for his bride. So it is quite contradictory to say he was married when he said and bible said he's coming back for his bride:/ Jesus will not be coming back. He was never here. You are wasting your time. You have wasted a lot of time worshiping your own imagination.The bible is fiction. Why do worship fiction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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