Near Death Stuff

[Kris]

Hey guys-- need your help!! What are your thoughts on people with NDE's? I got a little freaked out seeing a promo for an upcoming Katie show where a doctor, Mary Neal talks about almost dying, finding out she had to return, and that one if her children would pass away-- I looked up her info and she does sound like a kook, but her kid dying was kind of weird-- although she wrote her book after he died. Katie will also have a little boy on who came back from a near death with family knowledge he supposedly shouldn't have. I don't think that this is that kid Colton, who also says he saw heaven.

 

I know most of the general scientific explanations for the typical NDE experiences, but these ones are a bit more difficult for me to logically explain-- what are your thoughts?

[Kris]

I forgot to say that the actual episode airs tomorrow!!

[florduh]

It's funny, several people who read and reviewed the book complained to the effect that if she was so in tune with God (the real one!) she wouldn't support Obama.

 

Let that sink in.

 

Actually, I heard her tell her story and she sounded a bit delusional and eager to sell some books. There are other NDEs reporting different results, so I have to wonder why they don't experience the same things. Of course, there are the standard neurological explanations, but if that's not sufficient, don't forget people do lie - especially if for a higher purpose.

[LivingLife]

The phrase nearly dead here is key. IOW the brain was still very much alive. No one has ever come back from the dead. We now have CPR and artificial resuscitation and negate unnecessary deaths.

 

NDEs are merely dreams as are OOBEs.

 

Ever heard of grasping at straws? That is all this is.

[Adam5]

..the brain was still very much alive. No one has ever come back from the dead. ..NDEs are merely dreams

 

Good points. My thoughts also.

[bornagainathiest]

^{Hey Kris,}

 

^{Here's something for you to chew over.}

 

^{Certain Christians try to place severe (and false) restrictions on the remit of mainstream science. They claim that if a certain phenomena cannot be repeated, observed and tested, then it's not possible for science to say anything meaningful about it. Therefore, any research or data or scientific papers or claims regarding that phenomen can just be dismissed. If you can't repeat it, observe it or test it - it's not science. Ok, these Christians are of the hard-core Fundamentalist variety. Btw, I don't know anything at about Mary Neal.}

 

^{But let's just play Devil's Advocate for a minute and apply the Fundy's measure to the issue of NDE's.}

 

^{If you can't repeat, observe or test NDEs, then science has nothing meaningful to say about them.}

^{Can anything anyone experiences in a NDE be repeated?}

^{Not unless they go thru more than one NDE, under carefully-controlled conditions. (NO! Not like Flatliners. That was the mooveez, not real life and definitely not proper science.)}

^{Can anything they experience be observed by anyone else?}

^{No. By definition, an NDE is a totally subjective and personal experience.}

^{Can anything they experience be tested by anyone else?}

^{Same answer... No.}

 

^{Perhaps the only aspect of NDE's that can be investigated is to look for common patterns in the testimonies of those who've experienced a NDE. Even then, this process is fraught with difficulties. How can you ensure that the testimony's are truthful? How can you possibly say where a person's account of a NDE ends and their imagination takes over? How can you even say that the brain's recall mechanism is working properly , when that organ's electrical activity is externally measured as non-existent or greatly reduced?}

 

^{Ok then Kris, even if we lift those false restrictions, I still don't see how science can usefully investigate NDE's. But, if anyone else can or knows of some rigorous research, I'd love to hear about it. That'd be... fascinating.}

 

^Thanks,

 

^BAA

[Adam5]

^{Ok then Kris, even if we lift those false restrictions, I still don't see how science can usefully investigate NDE's. But, if anyone else can or knows of some rigorous research, I'd love to hear about it. That'd be... fascinating.}

 

Dr. Karl Jansen has reproduced NDEs with ketamine, a short-acting hallucinogenic.

 

- travel through a dark tunnel into the light

- the feeling that one is dead

- communing with some god

- out-of-body experiences etc.

 

"Jansen explains, "Ketamine administered by intravenous injection is capable of reproducing all of the features of the NDE which have been commonly described.""

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Near-death_experience#Ketamine

[Kris]

Yes-- I have read about these studies and watched an episode of "Through The Wormhole" in which even more studies seemed to validate a scientific explanation. Further, it seems that NDE's are influenced by culture or religious belief--- Christians see Christian motifs while Buddhists have different experiences, etc. The very fact that everyone doesn't see Jesus seems to show that at the very least, the biblical version of the afterlife isn't represented.

 

I was pretty much over worrying at NDEs at all until I saw the promo-- and now it appears that there was this addition of people coming back Fromm the otherside armed with information. In the doctors case, she was told that she had to return to earth because her son was going to die and her family would need her support. He did die, but it was 10 years later. Her book was supposedly written in its first draft right around the time he died and published a few years later. So, did she really know her son would pass? Did an angel tell her? Or could it be more scientific, in which a person experiences "psychic" phenomenon triggered by NDE's, or is the whole thing fabricated and she conveniently absorbed her sons death into her story to make it seem credible? Since I haven't read the book,I don't know if she told anyone 10 years prior that her son would specifically die ( and her husband wouldn't count-- he could easily lie for her!) If she told a bunch of people way prior to her sons death though, that might be hard to explain away-- how horrible for her son though !!

 

The same thing goes for the little boy-- I don't know much about his story because the Katie episode doesn't air until today but he supposedly had an NDE and came back talking about things he supposedly wouldn't know anything about-- not sure if he met deceased relatives, etc. I guess that is what happened to Colton Burpo, the boy who says he saw heaven. What would've logicAl explanations for this phenomenon? Could these kids also have psychically linked in to perhaps their parents brainwaves who, while worrying about their children, may have also been thinking of others they had lost and some sort of mind meld occured? Could the kids have had the info " planted" into their brains by their parents as a way to spice up their stories, or make them seem more valid and sell a few more books and get on TV? Or is heaven real and they really got information from their trip that they shouldn't have? I sure hope not!! I plan to watch the episode today, but like I said, it kind of scared me to hear about this new addition of info to the typical NDE story--- where people come back with secrets from the "other side"!! Ugggh!!

[Kris]

Florduh-- did you get to see Dr. Mary Neal in person, or was she on a show? One of the questions that I have is whether she told her son that he would die, or was this kept secret, so as not to upset him? If so, that could have easily been embellished into her story after the fact to add spice, so to say!! Did anyone else know about her supposedly coming back with this pre-concieved information? That is the only real element of her story that I find unanswerable. Just about everything else can be chalked up to dreams, imagianation, trying to sell a book, idealogy, or just plain old delusion!!

[Jose]

You can reproduce NDEs scientifically using centrifuge testing. When blood drains from the brain a certain percentage of users will have the vivid hallucinations and "typical" NDE. Including the feeling of peace, seeing people who died, blah, blah, fucking blah.

[Jose]

By the way, any time someone new-agey says, "the Other Side," to me, I will generally say, much louder, in a terrible British accent, "THE HOTHER SAYDE!!!"

 

They eventually stop using that phrase. Or stop talking to me because I'm giggling too much.

[florduh]

Florduh-- did you get to see Dr. Mary Neal in person, or was she on a show? One of the questions that I have is whether she told her son that he would die, or was this kept secret, so as not to upset him? If so, that could have easily been embellished into her story after the fact to add spice, so to say!! Did anyone else know about her supposedly coming back with this pre-concieved information? That is the only real element of her story that I find unanswerable. Just about everything else can be chalked up to dreams, imagianation, trying to sell a book, idealogy, or just plain old delusion!!

I heard her tell the tale on a radio program when she was promoting the release of the book. I didn't really dissect her story as it was just another NDE and I was noting some of the differences between stories. I don't recall anyone else claiming that predictions were made while they were "dead" other than such drivel as "You have more work on Earth" or "You haven't learned all your lessons yet." My guess is the prediction of the son's death was added later. I don't know if that part was published prior to his death or not.

 

Of course I don't think for a second that any entity actually told this woman anything, but in the prediction business (I know many "psychics" and used do do it myself) such a prediction might be worded something like, "I see the death of someone close to you. It will be very unexpected, but you should not fret as all things happen as they should." Later, when someone does actually die, the event is retrofitted to match the prediction and the sucker client will tell people that Soandso the Psychic predicted the event in perfect detail.

[Kris]

Ok-- watched the episode. Regarding the doctor-- apparently she had her OBE and went to a heavenly place and didn't want to return-- she did however, and while she was in the hospital, Jesus directly told her that she needed to be on earth to support her family because her oldest son would die. Apparently, he also always felt he would not live past 18, and told his mom this at a young age. When he turned 18, Dr Mary told her husband and son what Jesus told her ( I thought this was pretty horrible!!) but that she thought Jesus' plan changed fit his life? Then when her son was 19, he was killed by a driver while roller skiing. Dr Mary said that supposedly her son told his training partner about his moms vision that very day! Dr Matry seemed pretty weird to me, and I did not find her to seem very authentic for some reason-- I looked up her sons accident and found that she and her husband tried to sue the 18 year old who accidentally killed her son- if Jesus had told her that this accident was part of a divine plan--- why sue? Also, why wait 10 years to even talk to anyone about the supposed vision? Other than the sons friend who he supposedly told, no one else knew of Mary's vision-- other than the now deceased son and her hubby-- convenient I say!!

 

Then little Colton Burpo and his creepy parents hit the stage telling his wonderful story of meeting Jesus-- seeing the devil ( he had seven heads and ten crowns---revelation overload!!). And he supposedly met his deceased grandpa and sister who was miscarried by his mom. Colton apparently had a ruptured appendix and had to have major medical attention. This whole story snacks of parental manipulation.

[LivingLife]

These folk are so desperate to find any validation to their faith as ALL OF IT is anecdotal and invisible, happened in a distant country etc. NDEs and OOBEs, seeing they happen more frequently because of SCIENCE being able to negate unnecessary deaths by CPR and paddles to kick start the heart, well this is just the woos latching onto shit like DNA which was unheard of 50+ years ago. Part of the validation is being an attention seeking whore and by having all the attention, someone suggested, write a book, and the story, like so many are embellished.

 

They probably all know deep down death is final and falsely hold onto vain hope that death is not final. These same people will reject the scientific explanation everytime.

[Kris]

Unfortunately-- I looked a few more things up on the Internet. Why do I do this? Most of what I read was the same old weird crap, but I ran across a video by a neurosurgeon who recounted one of his patients who had been dead on the table and then came back-- the patient supposedly was able to recount what was going on in the hospital room. The doctor also talked Bout another time when a patient wouldn't stop bleeding and then suddenly a "presence" was felt and the bleeding stopped. I found his stories a little disconcerting-- can anyone help me explain these away logically? I will get the doctors name so you can google his video!

 

[Kris]

His name was dr Lloyd Rudy-- it appears he did just one interview on the topic of nde's and passed away this year. Is there scientific information to explain this such as a brain remaining active enough to pick up on conversations and then subconsciously put together what is going on in an operating room? I can pretty much scientifically explain away all of the nde visions as being brain-related activity, but struggle with the OBE part

[Voice]

I love this topic. It's an important part of my spiritual breakfast.

I dated a woman who was clinically dead for 30 minutes. Cool stuff. She made me think about reincarnation, and I hate the idea of reincarnation. She described rivers of souls so well I've painted pictures.

 

There was one christian book that came to my attention in the '80's where a kid claimed to have died and went to see the splendor and glory of God and Christ in gold and white with all the lost and saved souls coming out of the great tribulation. The details were ridiculous. That was probably the only NDE account I rejected on the spot, and I was a christian at the time. That one isn't on my spread sheets.

 

According to my numbers, enough people from diverse and separate places on Earth share the same experiences (with very little deviance) that I take it seriously. I think it's really cool.

[Voice]

Unfortunately-- I looked a few more things up on the Internet. Why do I do this? Most of what I read was the same old weird crap, but I ran across a video by a neurosurgeon who recounted one of his patients who had been dead on the table and then came back-- the patient supposedly was able to recount what was going on in the hospital room. The doctor also talked Bout another time when a patient wouldn't stop bleeding and then suddenly a "presence" was felt and the bleeding stopped. I found his stories a little disconcerting-- can anyone help me explain these away logically? I will get the doctors name so you can google his video!

 

Why try to explain it away? These are normal events.

All 6 of my grandfather's kids (including my dad) were with him when he died. They all describe something like a powerful wind swirl through the room at the moment he passed.

I wonder if anyone will be there for me. If There's time, I'd like to visit a few people on the way. I know others visit me on their way.

[Voice]

You can reproduce NDEs scientifically using centrifuge testing. When blood drains from the brain a certain percentage of users will have the vivid hallucinations and "typical" NDE. Including the feeling of peace, seeing people who died, blah, blah, fucking blah.

 

I also heard there's a chemical naturally produced in the brain that's like no drug we've made. The guy who talked about it was kind of a freak genius. He knew what it was called, along with a few other things doctors probably don't even know. He said the chemical is released only at times so severe as a NDE and at child birth. I haven't asked any women with kids if they experienced anything like he described yet, maybe someone could chime in. His description was that it would shoot your consciousness to the stars, literally. He attributed this to a viable cause for seeing the tunnel of light and a lot of the common things you hear.

[Kris]

Well-- what do you think it all means then, Voice? Proof of heaven? Or some other existence after death? It makes me uncomfortable, frankly!! The one thing that I seemed t notice is that there was a lot of variety in the stories, which make tend to NOT believe them. I am thinking that most everything can be explained as actions in the brain but I still struggle with OBEs. I am leaning to them being some sort of psychic thing or possibly that there is enough brain activity for a person to sense what is going on in the room and see it in their mind--- trying to find rationality in this phenomenon. I like to live in the realm of logic-- like Spock!!

[pandora]

Voice, was she really "dead" or just had no heartbeat and respiration? I used to know the name of that chemical, but I forgot... I took neuropharmacology and it was an awesome class. I learned so much.

[Kris]

Voice-- what do you attribute the rushing wind at your grandpas passing to be?

 

I am really struggling with this subject because it seems to have been hijacked by Christians trying to prove heaven-- like some guy named Storm who used to be an athiest but now is a preacher who goes around talking about his experience in hell etc--- I don't want to validate this kind of thing. Supposedly, he was told in his NDE that the bible was true etc. ugghhhh. This kind of thing really fucks up people like me because then I get fearful that I could be wrong about the afterlife Just when I was content to accept that I would live and then simply die--- stuff like this cones along and gets me all fearful and confused.

[pandora]

Voice-- what do you attribute the rushing wind at your grandpas passing to be?

 

I am really struggling with this subject because it seems to have been hijacked by Christians trying to prove heaven-- like some guy named Storm who used to be an athiest but now is a preacher who goes around talking about his experience in hell etc--- I don't want to validate this kind of thing. Supposedly, he was told in his NDE that the bible was true etc. ugghhhh. This kind of thing really fucks up people like me because then I get fearful that I could be wrong about the afterlife Just when I was content to accept that I would live and then simply die--- stuff like this cones along and gets me all fearful and confused.

 

Well, we could very well be wrong about the afterlife. It just something I have come to accept and not let get to me. Personally, I think that without a brain, we cannot maintain our personality or experience anything in a sense of self. If there is anything after we die, we will not be personally aware of it IMO. Perhaps there is some universal consciousness or energy not yet discovered by science that we all melt back into when we die. Maybe there is nothing. I'm not too hung up on deciding here and now what an afterlife, if there is any, looks like. The variety of the NDEs that I have read prove to me they are based on context and culture, so one shouldn't be afraid that not believing in a particular religion has any impact on what happens next. In the NDEs that people describe, there is obviously still a part of the ego that is intact (because the brain has not completely died) which would explain the personal nature of the experiences and the ability to have a memory of it. With true brain death, these things are not possible.

[Kris]

Ok-- I am seriously derailing and really need help with this--- no joke!! I was really trying to help myself though my fears of NDEs by actually looking up the main sites around them and unfortunately-- I got on the Dr Raymond Moody site-- and unfortunately came across these supposed prophetic people who had NDEs-- one named Ned Dougherty who supposedly predicted 9-11 six months prior to it happening in a book. He now runs an endtimes website-- which I also unfortunately checked out.

 

Now I am in freakout mode on this-- logically, when I looked at his specific prophecy about 9-11, he had mentioned that there "may" be an attack on New York or DC soon in a book he published in 3/11-- perhaps not such a huge prophecy since terrorist groups had been warning that they would attack the USA and had already targeted New York in 93.

 

But-- it all just scares me--I really need help with this. Voices-- your story about your grandpa scared me too, I am afraid-- what do you think it was? Why do people have these experiences? How do we discount the religious kooks who claim to have direct knowledge from god and supposed proof to bear it out?!

 

I am really trying to cone to grips with this one-- but let a lot of weird gobbledygook in that has set me back. Please don't fluff me off!! I really want some clear, strong help on this!!

[pandora]

Well, I don't feel like going into more detail than I already have (which isn't much I know). Basically, remember that when people claim to be dead, they really arean't. Clinical death happens in stages, and I have never heard of a NDE that happened when the brain was really and truly dead. These things happen while the brain is under stress and the heart has stopped. Thus, the brain creates crazy stories to explain the tunnel of light, see dead relatives, etc etc... it all depends on the culture you live in as to what visions you may see, or your personal beliefs. Christians see Jesus, others see a Figure of Light. Someone mentioned ketamine. SWIM did that drug once and was convinced he was dead, saw a horse spirit guide, and all sorts of cool neat stuff and emotions.... but it was just the result of the brain being tweaked, and researches say that the pharmacological action of the drug is very similar to what happens to the brain during death.

 

Here is a link I found. Try Google or whatever to find more!

 

http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html