United States

[ped]

i guess no one heard of the company in michigan firing smokers if they dont quit. healthcare costs too much.

lets not put all the blame on healthcare industry though. hospitals scame the hell out of healthcare companies.

for instance, broke me leg in a motorcycle wreck. The air cast the hospital gave me had charged my insurance company $600. the exact same air cast sold on the manufacters site for $90.

 

as for jobs i guess some people dont mind being wage slaves. "go find a new skill" attitude is the problem, its the same minds that elected bush. people are over skilled and under-educated. i think its a huge conspiracy of mind control, basically forcing college when its not necessary.

i could do most white collar jobs that require basic computer skill, but i will never find someone to hire me for that. why, im a high school drop out. they hear that and think im a total moron and imbicile. yet i could talk circles around them on many topics of higher education. as well as technical skill. fuck..I find tons of people making good money that are, in all objectivity MORONS. possesing not one iota of knowledge, deep thought or common sense. complete worker- bee slaves that have been thrown some more bones than you cause they behave. or have kids............dont get me goining on the bias for people with families (as if the world isnt already on the verge of OP).

[Megistias]

re: Chad3232132

 

Well according to all the other modern democracies in the world that I'm aware of, universal healthcare has been around for a very long time. You do realize we in the U.S. are pretty much the only "1st world" country without atleast basic guaranteed healthcare don't ya?

 

Great, I'm openminded and open to changing my position, so let's look at the one you rcommend we emulate.

 

 

 

I'll just assume you were kidding and didn't really recommend that someone marry someone for healthcare benefits...

 

Why, won't that work to get her coverage and treatment ?

 

If you phrase it "best healthcare system in the world that money can buy I'll agree. I strongly disagree with you that our system is the best in the world when such a large % of the country have zero chance of having access to the system.

 

Yes, it's the "best healthcare system in the world that money can buy" - pretty much anything that can be done medically, can be done here.

 

There is a cost associated with that.

 

Now the obese guy working part-time in the music store who gave himself type II diabetes wants me to help pay for his ongoing top notch care and meds via a universal healthcare system safety net.

 

 

 

 

"We have the best fighter aircraft, but no one is going to give you one either."

 

Do you even understand the difference between public and private good??? Fighter aircraft, and our entire military for that matter is a PUBLIC good, meaning everyone enjoys the same benefit of the protection they provide the nation even though they don't actually need a fighter jet in their daily lives. On the other hand, healthcare can be either a public or private good depending on whom you ask. I consider healthcare to be a public good. Afterall, my health may not be much concern to you, but the overall health of the people around you and the health of our society as a whole can definately adversely effect all of us. Some see healthcare as a private business, I on the other hand see it as one of the most critical public goods. If you want to continue having Americans pay the highest average costs of healthcare in the world, while enjoying what ranks among the lowest benefits of any developed nation on earth (i.e. we have a low life expectancy, high infant mortality rates, etc.) then by all means keep supporting the insurance and healthcare industries who will love to gouge you for the rest of your life. Not to mention the K Street lobbyists working for those industries who will fight tooth and nail against and healthcare reform.

 

Um, so you're saying she can't have a fighter airplane ?

 

 

 

 

How long before what becomes mandatory? You mean useless forms, being told what procedures you can and cannot have, being forced to wait for hours in emergency rooms while you are bleeding to death, being told which drugs you can and cannot have? Oh wait, nevermind... that's the system we ALREADY have. My mistake.

 

And you're willing to pay for the parties responsible for this to give it to everyone ?

[Megistias]

 

Do you people really want your healthcare in the hands of the government? How long before their "health guidelines" become mandatory? They will tell us what we can eat, drink etc.

 

You need to think real hard about this.

 

Yes, and if you want the government to provide it, then they make the rules as to how it's distributed.

 

 

Slipperly slope scare tactic that has not rung true in other countries with national health care.

 

Excellent. Let's take a look a Russia's health care system then. Could you give us a run down on how it all works there ?

 

 

Ironically that statement with distribution is exactly the problem with corporatized healthcare. Almost all plans cover certain things, don't cover certain procedures or drugs, etc. Trying to scare people by having them believe that universal healthcare will bar them from certain rights just won't fly when that is already the reality of the corporate and lobbyist run healthcare system that we have now!

 

I'm not really argueing that what we have is optimal. However I strongly suspect that a government run system wouldn't "cover certain procedures or drugs, etc." too. AND it would be more expensive overall.

 

However, I'm still waiting for the examples of another country's system that you think we should emulate.

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately not everyone has the luxury of going 4+ years to college to get a good job with benefits. That's the world we live in. It drives me crazy when I hear these people on the right bash people who can't get health insurance. They really believe everyone was born with a silver spoon liek they were.

 

You should post their names so we can rip on them.

[Megistias]

 

 

Basic needs of Americans should at least be met, do you not agree?

 

I don't fully agree. On what basis should the US government forcibly take money from me and my family and use it to buy food, shelter, clothes, and medical services for Ed and his family ?

 

Charities should provide those services instead - with donations.

 

All of us pay taxes up the ass, even those unemployed. Don't forget all the hidden taxes and what not. We as American tax payers are shaken down and screwed by the government and fked over by the Corporates. The only people not willing to see that are either Government lap dogs or Corporates themselves. We can send a billion + of OUR money over seas to help everyone, but someone needs their tonsils out and you give bullshit advice that she should have to marry some SOB with "Proper insurance"?

 

It IS one solution. Now you don't like it and maybe she doesn't like it, but it would work. Apparently the problem isn't as bad as marrying someone. Another solution would be for everyone here to pitch in and pay for her treatment.

 

How much are you going to contribute ? Remember, not MY money, but your money. I may or may not contribute.

 

 

By Your advice Megistias, Seems to me you have no problems with people scamming the system, and in fact you encourage them to scam the system instead of seeing the problem with the broken system. I'm appalled that anyone would encourage someone to be cheaters instead of acknowledging reality and fixing a problem.

 

I am appaled at your thinking. Were you dropped as a child ? Are you a child ?

 

How is it a scam ? When you are legally married you are an economic partnership. Can't I choose to marry for money, love, connections, sex, whatever ? Isn't it my choice who I marry, why, and for how long ? I'm sorry it doesn't fit your romantic notions of true love everlasting marriage - you must hate gay people and polygamists who want to marry.

 

You realize that if she married someone and got added to his/her healthplan that the premiums would go up, right ? In other words, she WOULD still be paying for her coverage.

 

 

 

Germany seems to be on the cutting edge of Healthcare, They in fact just did the first ever face transplant.

 

The Germans have a history of medical firsts - you should see some of the photos at Dachau.

 

I think it was French doctors though that did the surgery.

 

The woman will probably die in a few years of cancer. That's a nasy side-effect of suppressing one's immune system for very long.

 

"How does the German system work?

 

Unless you are very rich (in which case you can opt for private insurance), you are obliged to join one of the many non-profit sickness funds which administer national health insurance. Your premium is deducted from your pay - with about half contributed by your employer - and is set at a percentage of your income, between about 9% and 17%. The variation is due to competition between the funds, which compete for members by offering a wide variety of benefits over and above those required by law. Hospitals, too, are under diverse ownership so there is also competition between them to secure contracts from the funds. (The unemployed and those on benefit have their costs paid by the state.)

 

And why is that considered a better system?

 

Because competition between insurance companies and between hospitals switches power from bureaucrats to patients. That, at least, is the theory. In practice, the real advantage - and drawback - of insurance-based systems over tax-based ones is that government finds it much harder to control expenditure. This means the health system receives more money overall, which probably explains why fewer patients in Germany and France suffer long delays, and why there are fewer complaints about poor service. But it also means there is much looser supervision over costs. Indeed, the German and French systems are hugely inefficient and burdened by a massive bureaucracy for collecting payment and disbursement. Typically, the cost of administration adds around 27% to each insurance fund. It adds just 5% to the NHS."

 

http://elt.britcoun.org.pl/h_nhs.htm

 

 

You aren't even willing to see or acknowledge that many people in this country suffer due to lack of insurance. Most are hard workers, want their kids to go to college which is another thing that's near impossible to afford.

 

I acknowledge that "many people in this country suffer due to lack of insurance". Kinda makes your accusation above look silly, doesn't it.

 

I put myself through college. So did my wife. It's not always a good "investment" though. we are planning now how to help our kids with college in 16-17 years.

 

I really think you need to work on your people skills, It's fine to have opposing opinions. Your condescending arrogant attitude wins you no win points in the delivery of your opinion though.

 

Right. I disagree with some posters and their defenses ultimately rely on that at they have had personal tragedies, that what I read from positive attitude combat Marines was coerced and brainwashing - and that I'm probably a armchair general anyway, and that it's unfair that you might be let go in a temp job if you can't actually do the job for a week.

 

I think a bunch of you have easily triggered emotional issues about some subjects and starkly being called on your positions is immediately viewed as an attack by a condescending arrogant jerk.

 

Here's the perfect opportunity to discuss what's up in America and everyone's immediately talking smack instead of substance.

 

Reread the thread. There's a lot of "poor me" and very little cool calm explanation.

[Megistias]

Just remember something here, dumbass. I didn't start this conversation with you, you decided to drag me into you ignorant rants.

 

Yes, it was someone elses fault. I'm sorry I made you do something.

 

In my mind you fired the fist shot.

 

11B's got a $5,000 VEAP bonus in 1979 that your "smarter" file clerks didn't get. My goal was to get enough money for college ASAP, so what is the logical choice ? That's right, I took a potentially sucky job position to MAKE MORE MONEY. The goal was NOT to have an easy Army job, the goal was to make money for college.

 

 

 

Since I only saw this post after our PM's, I'll defer any further responses in the hopes that the PM's and a little time sees you viewing my posts and positions more objectively.

 

Alternatively, we could open an insult hurling thread and move that cookie throughout each other's anatomy while defending each MOS from perceived slights.

[Megistias]

 

...hospitals scame the hell out of healthcare companies. for instance, broke me leg in a motorcycle wreck. The air cast the hospital gave me had charged my insurance company $600. the exact same air cast sold on the manufacters site for $90.

 

I experienced a similar thing when I was hospitalized earlier this year. Oh, and they billed me 8 months later for procedure never performed and stuff never used.

 

 

as for jobs i guess some people dont mind being wage slaves. "go find a new skill" attitude is the problem, its the same minds that elected bush. people are over skilled and under-educated. i think its a huge conspiracy of mind control, basically forcing college when its not necessary.

 

I see it opposite. "Go find a new skill" and/or "relocate" is the answer - if you're having difficulty getting work. People are "under skilled" and "over educated" - what DOES one DO with a degree in Pet Goldfish Taxidermy while living in a remote rural location ?

 

College is frequently a poor economic "investment". It can be a very good personal "investment" though. People often get the two confused.

 

 

There. I think we're supposed to start hurling insults at each other now.

[No Heaven for Kevin]

Christ & 1/2!!! That'll be the last time I start a rant thread - Megistias, buddy . . . in theory your answers are true, but when the gov't has denegrated the U.S. to the point where citizens have no choice but to be dependent on so many things, I think you answers are a bit misguided. Unless you're corrupt or come into millions, it's nearly impossible to live the so-called "American Dream" or struggle above the poverty level. Trust me, I'm proof of that, and I never "expected" anything to be handed to me. I worked hard and came by everything I owned by my own 2 hands. The best of jobs offer piss-poor healthcare at best, and if you obtain it on your own, it can be often more than 1,500 every 2 or 3 months. Who in the bloody hell can afford that?

 

OT

 

 

Hey, you started a rant threat and we are ranting! Good job buddy!!

 

[Open_Minded]

Right. I disagree with some posters and their defenses ultimately rely on that at they have had personal tragedies, that what I read from positive attitude combat Marines was coerced and brainwashing - and that I'm probably a armchair general anyway, and that it's unfair that you might be let go in a temp job if you can't actually do the job for a week.

 

I think a bunch of you have easily triggered emotional issues about some subjects and starkly being called on your positions is immediately viewed as an attack by a condescending arrogant jerk.

 

Here's the perfect opportunity to discuss what's up in America and everyone's immediately talking smack instead of substance.

 

Reread the thread. There's a lot of "poor me" and very little cool calm explanation.

 

Megistias: because people relate their personal tragedies... there is no validity to the discussion?

 

You want "cool calm" read the following http://www.kff.org/spotlight/healthcosts/index.cfm

 

For every statistic remind yourself of the personal tragedy behind it, then ask yourself what the REAL cost of health care is in this country.

 

As to your suggestions to marry to get access to health care.... yeh that cost wouldn't be high. Do you really believe the only way to tabulate cost is monetary? If so, I feel sorry for your wife and children. Because you may have a really nice boat, but your priorities suck....

 

And my guess is if this really is the attitude you bring to life, I'm not the first one telling you this.

[Megistias]

 

Megistias: because people relate their personal tragedies... there is no validity to the discussion?

 

Not at all, why would you think that is my position ? I'll relate one myself.

 

I just don't buy in to the personal anecdote as overwhelming evidence of system failure.

 

"I can't find a job" = there are no jobs !

"I can't afford X all by myself" = it should be provided !

"Things aren't going well for me right now" = Bush sucks and the American dream is a lie !

 

I say "I see jobs, there are ways to get what you want, and not everyone is getting hammered, so let's take a look"

 

What's proffered is evidence of lives in chaos from other causes anyway ! I don't see the true cause and effect connection between their actual situation and their opinions.

 

 

As to your suggestions to marry to get access to health care.... yeh that cost wouldn't be high. Do you really believe the only way to tabulate cost is monetary?

 

It would work, right ? It's ONE solution. Another I suggested is for everyone here to voluntarily chip in and pay for it. It would work too, right ? One she might not want to do - her call and the cost is that she is still burdened. The other YOU might not want to do - your call and the cost is that you left a fellow forum poster to fend for herself. So from where, I need to ask, do you come up with the notion that I believe the only way to tabulate costs is monetarily ? Oh I know, it's one of those logical fallicies thingys.

 

 

If so, I feel sorry for your wife and children. Because you may have a really nice boat, but your priorities suck....

 

Which priorities are those you are referring to ? Did you do it again ?

 

My priorities suck because ... I work hard and make sacrifices so that my family is well off ? because I'm not still a store clerk or selling tacos ? Because I was willing to start over somewhere else to get what I wanted ?

Because I helped send care packages to Marines in combat in a war someone else might not approve of ? Because I don't want to buy you something ? What exactly is this pitiful set of priorities you have assigned to me so that you could pity my family ?

 

It is a nice boat - you all seem hung up on the boat. We bought it after all the miscarriages led us to believe we couldn't have kids. Sometimes you do have to call it quits and find something else that one would enjoy. We chose boating in liu of fancy cars - or are those a higher priority and whose ?

 

 

And my guess is if this really is the attitude you bring to life, I'm not the first one telling you this.

 

What attitude would that be - that you have to understand the role of your decisions in where you are now ? That all is not gloom and doom and that the US is not little more than a grey gulag of despair for most of us with a few rich guys laughing at the kids who only want a break in life, maybe some bread ?

That sometimes you have to make short-term sacrifices for long-term results ?

 

Yeah, bad me for being critical and cautious of what I see in the news reports too.

 

 

 

Do you blame drugs or are your wiring problems congenital ?

[Megistias]

Unless you're corrupt or come into millions, it's nearly impossible to live the so-called "American Dream" or struggle above the poverty level. Trust me, I'm proof of that, and I never "expected" anything to be handed to me.

 

2 of 3 of my siblings live well (~ the American dream). I am the only one that went to college. One spent 8 years in the Navy and is in the Reserve, married late right after getting out. The other is in medical office supply sales, single and mobile.

 

The one that's barely making it comitted all the classic blunders - don't finish high school, married early and had children immediately, only works retail, worked at the same small company as spouse, emotionally tied to a particular part of a particular town. Laid off and not looking nor preparing for something else. Oh, and I'm sure she had her head messed with by religion too.

 

What do you think her take on the job market is ?

 

 

 

Ok, so lets look at your life. Seriously.

[Open_Minded]

 

Ok, so lets look at your life. Seriously.

 

 

Seriously...

 

Self-made business owner with a 4-year college degree - living better than my folks did at my age. Not in the top 2% of American wealth, but upper middle class. Would probably have to pay more taxes if we decided to provide universal health insurance and am willing to do so. Would you now like to know why?

 

1. Even though I'm doing better than my parents did at my age, my children are not doing as well as I did at their age. College is not affordable anymore - play all the blame games you want when it gets right down to the statistics college is not accessable to most young people who have the grades to get in. Our eldest daughter is graduating from college next spring with a managable debt because we have been able to help her. Most of her college friends are not so lucky, most of them will be starting adult life with a debt load far heavier than I ever dreamed of at their age. (Measuring debt load by percentage of income - and trust me I've done the math, because I find it horrid that our country has allowed this to happen. When I graduated college I had a debt load equal to what I would have had if I'd purchased a new car. That is the debt load our daughter will have, about $20,000. Most of her friends could double, or triple that easily. And they all work, my daughter and all of her college friends.)

 

2. Neither one of my young adult - hard working - responsible children will be able to get health care insurance from their first employer. Our 18 year old son just graduated high-school, works for a commercial builder in a large metro area with plenty of work. He is in line for an apprenticeship - as soon as one opens up. He will not be able to get health care coverage until after he gets through an apprenticeship program, could be 5 years.

 

3. When our daughter graduates college the statistics show that she will not qualify for health care coverage from her first employer. Both of our hard working, intelligent and capable young adult children will have to go without healthcare insurance for 4-5 years into their adult lives - if they are lucky.

 

4. In addition to that I am willing to pay more taxes to provide universal health care coverage because our parents are not doing as well as their parents in retirement. My mother-in-law must purchase her drugs from Mexico because our country can not see fit to sell the same drugs at a reasonable cost. We may joke about our 84 year-old uncle making a drug run to Mexico for his elderly siblings - but it's a sick joke. And simple statistics show that this is considered normal in our country now, pretty sick if you ask me.

 

So... how about you. Are you in the top 2% bracket, if not are you upper middle class. Are you taking the stand you are taking for selfish reasons - because you don't feel it should be your concern that:

 

1. Young adults can not afford college... even when they work their way through college they still come out with a very high debt load.

 

2. Young adults cannot get health insurance and are going uninsured by the thousands.

 

3. Elderly people are not getting access to the health care and drugs they need because of costs.

 

That is why I question your priorities, and it is why so many of us have mentioned the damned boat. Big deal you have a boat - what's that got to do with simple facts. Facts that many, many, people in this country are working hard and doing everything they can to get ahead and they are still not able to afford good healthcare, good healthcare coverage, or able to purchase a home.

 

In the end, we could do a little objective poll, if you like....

 

* Ask people who have young-adult children if those children are doing as well as they themselves did 20 years ago.

 

* Ask young adults what their debt load will be when they graduate college. Ask for specifics, how many dollars will you be in debt when you graduate? Measure that against the cost of a good automobile.

 

* Ask young adults if they are able to get health insurance from their first employer out of college, or highschool.

 

If you're really interested in hard facts instead of everyone's "personal stories" then do a poll, see what the statistics are, then SHUT UP

[pandora]

I rarely applaud posts... but I do agree 100% with you, Open Minded....

 

I do not have insurance. Hubby does but it is only for him... to add me would be almost $400/month. Private plans are still around (with minimal coverage... a percentage copay plan) but cost me $160/month with my medical conditions.

I will graduate pharmacy school with over $70k in debt... but unlike the vast majority of college students, I will be able to pay that off quickly with my salary. That is only because I chose my major carefully for that reason. Finances should not keep people from what they really want to do in life... although I accept it, obviously many young people don't. What are going to do with the next generation struggling to pay bills? Not everyone can be a doctor, pharmacist, or some other high paying job. IF everyone did, then the same problems would occur for these professions as well. This is primarily why these professions are so competitve.

 

We have to alleviate this debt problem somehow... I am not sure of the answers. Pretty soon, we'll all be moving to China just so we can have a two room apartment and food on the table (and no car).

[Megistias]

 

If you're really interested in hard facts instead of everyone's "personal stories" then do a poll, see what the statistics are, then SHUT UP

 

You must be remarkably stupid. No wonder I was having difficulty understanding where you were getting your misconceptions. I clearly asked odintim about his life. I'm not as interested in your life - mabye if you explain the "priorities" you assigned to me in mine in an earlier post. You know, the stuff you simply made up.

 

But thanks for sharing.

 

Why don't you put your kids on your plan ? Too expensive ? Ah, so you graciously offer to pay a fraction of that cost in increased taxes - and get the rest of us to subsidise the remainder. How ... noble.

 

Your daughter will statistically "not qualify for health care coverage from her first employer." ??

 

What a shame that she has no say in where she ends up working. She COULD take a job that offers health care and turn down the offers from those that don't. Isn't it her call based on what is important to her.

[Open_Minded]

Why don't you put your kids on your plan ? Too expensive ? Ah, so you graciously offer to pay a fraction of that cost in increased taxes - and get the rest of us to subsidise the remainder. How ... noble.

 

Your daughter will statistically "not qualify for health care coverage from her first employer." ??

 

 

Not paying attention to facts are we...

 

In this country a child can be covered under parents health care policies until they are out of highschool one year, or in college. By this statistic both of our adult children will be required to drop from our policy next spring.

 

Do you not think we've all researched what her options are after college... she may get lucky. But the statistics are against her.

 

Are you going to do the poll, or do you really NOT care about statistics and are just avoiding the possibility of having to do your share for the larger good.

 

I'll correspond with you more, when and IF you do a poll and get the facts. Until then, your actions say you don't care and your just blowing in the wind....

[Open_Minded]

I rarely applaud posts... but I do agree 100% with you, Open Minded....

 

I do not have insurance. Hubby does but it is only for him... to add me would be almost $400/month. Private plans are still around (with minimal coverage... a percentage copay plan) but cost me $160/month with my medical conditions.

I will graduate pharmacy school with over $70k in debt... but unlike the vast majority of college students, I will be able to pay that off quickly with my salary. That is only because I chose my major carefully for that reason. Finances should not keep people from what they really want to do in life... although I accept it, obviously many young people don't. What are going to do with the next generation struggling to pay bills? Not everyone can be a doctor, pharmacist, or some other high paying job. IF everyone did, then the same problems would occur for these professions as well. This is primarily why these professions are so competitve.

 

We have to alleviate this debt problem somehow... I am not sure of the answers. Pretty soon, we'll all be moving to China just so we can have a two room apartment and food on the table (and no car).

 

Thanks Pandora:

 

We do need to alleviate the problems we have, but that would mean people willing to take their share of responsibility. And I'm afraid with the current compassionate/conservatives we have in charge - it won't happen anytime soon

[Megistias]

I'll correspond with you more, when and IF you do a poll and get the facts. Until then, your actions say you don't care and your just blowing in the wind....

 

Actually I was hoping you could back up (or elaborate on the genesis of) your assumptions about my priorities in life and my poor family. Or it was you doing the blowing.

 

Obviously, when called on your nonsensical assumptions, you too find it easier to talk about something else.

 

For goodness sakes, man, you had the chance to say that you saw things as some of the other earlier posters did and explain why.

 

I'm teribbly sorry to hear that your children are statistically doomed to slip away leaning against the locked doors of the local clinic.

 

But rather than hide these two individuals behind information about groups of people, CAN they conceivably search for and take jobs that offer healthcare ?

 

Yes, Magistias, they can. But ...

 

Then they are deciding that what they plan to do is more important than having that coverage.

 

Polls aren't going to tell us much.

 

Reason you don't have healthcare:

 

Can't afford - X %

Forgot - X %

Healthy as an ox - X%

Rather buy an IPod - X%

 

Reason you can't afford healthcare:

 

Don't make enough - 100 %

 

Reason you don't make enough to afford healthcare:

 

Poor decisions - X %

History of Women's Studies degree - X %

Not offered here and I can only work here - X%

You don't understand, my favorite rodent misses me if ... - X %

Because Megistias's life priorities are just plain evil - X %

[Dianka]

Megistias,

 

Before I start the meat of what is probably going to be a long post, I just want to point out that my situation is not a tragedy. I would dare say that Amethyst's situation is not a tragedy either (I am referring to the expense of glasses, healthcare, and current job situation, nothing else). I don't know about you, but I know a lot of people with glasses, and people who have had their tonsils removed.

 

I agree that any system will not be able to carry everyone. My problem with our system is that people above the poverty level and up to the upper middle class are not receiving proper coverage. If you think this is natural selection you are mistaken - it is a threat to public health. Take me for example, the strep comes, I get antibiotics, and the cycle continues. I highly doubt that my situation is a rare one. People who cannot afford to get rid of useless tonsils that do nothing but harbor strep are a threat to people who are currently resistant to that strain of strep. What happens when the strep mutates to a point that it cannot be killed with current antibiotics? The bacteria spreads to people. Any person, regardless of their financial stability and workplace benifits, is now in danger of contracting this new strain.

 

-How do you justify people not having boats ? Where is having healthcare a right ? "Proper" suggests a standard, please show me the standard.

 

-Fatalist. Think again.

 

Sometimes it's luck, but I bet as often there's a bit of planning, anticipation, strategy and hard work involved too.

 

How much is your treatment ?

 

Is there any job you might take within 600 miles that would give you your desired health benefits ?

 

Marry someone with benefits and get it done, then divorce. You DO know someone of the opposite sex with benefits ?

 

My definition of proper healthcare is going to the doctor and being treated for their symptoms instead of doctors masking symptoms because the patient cannot afford the treatment.

 

When I say luck, I don't mean luck in the sense that they were born into a wealthy family. I mean they are lucky to not have a chronic health problem that burns a hole in their wallet without cushy benifits.

 

I am probably going to spend way too much time picking your "Marry someone with benifits" comment, but I suppose I will go ahead:

 

First of all, you justify getting married for healthcare by making it a social contract. By that definition, why would I get a divorce from a person that married me on a financial basis alone? Unless, of course, you are saying I should decieve someone into marrying me, and then divorce them when I am done using them. Tell me, if I should try to do this on the up and up, where are these lovely men who will marry me and pay for my health problem? Those noble social patriots must be hiding, or must be few and far between, or don't exist. Who would marry someone that only wants to be with them for their health insurance? I would say that if such a thing were to take place, it would only be because they found some sort of benifit in the proposition. I am broke, going to school, have a good pile of debt, am a pain in the ass to deal with on a daily basis, and have no material possesion that would be of any value to someone. So what do I have that would benefit a man - hmmm, I would say an available vagina is the only plus in this situation, and I am just not ok with exchanging pussy for helthcare. And just so you know, many companies will only cover a small fraction if any of the cost of a pre-existing condition.

 

I don't know of any country that has a better healthcare system for those who have the money to shell out. But like I said before, the health problems of the untouchables will in time infiltrate the Brahmans. I have thought about what kind of healthcare system would suit me. As far as I know, I don't think it exists, but anyone correct me if I am wrong. Socialized primary healthcare. Emergency or treatment that is not preventative should remain the same. That's my nugget, anyone interested in being president one day (Chad perhaps?? ) run with it. I don't have the charisma to win people over.

[Dianka]

I just wanted to add one more thing. I am taking care of myself. Going to school and paying for my own way. I do have an advantage because I am living with my mummy so I suppose I am getting help. I don't know how I would be able to afford school without help from my mother. I am really lucky, a lot of people don't have the luxury of moving back home when they want to go to college. I know I would not be able to do so if I was still out there. I would still have my shit waitress job that pays shit money and would not have enough time to study for school. I am working my ass off to get into nursing school for some benifits and decent pay When I get into nursing school, I won't be able to work more than 12 hours a week because the school is so demanding. As a requirement to get into nursing school, guess what people need. Health insurance. Let me get this straight: you can only work 12 hours a week, AND you need to have health insurance. Seems that only a handful of people fit into that situation.

 

Getting into good stable careers is hard, and in some cases unattainable.

[No Heaven for Kevin]

Megistias, there is no reason to be so disrespectful to the people in this conversation. Compassion and empathy are essential to all, someday you may need some too.

 

I keep seeing this "just show me who has better health care" statement coming up. It would be nice if any of you out there in Canada, England, Germany, or anyplace else, would weigh in on this. I can't speak from personal experience, but I worked for a large Enlglish company for a couple of years and the English guys I worked with loved their country's health system. In fact, some of them would catch a plane back to England when they were sick rather than go to an American doctor.

 

I read an article not too long ago that was stating the United States' population health indicators (infant mortality, average life span, etc) is well below many other countries, including ones you might not expect, like Cuba. Places like Cuba focus on cheap preventive medicine to keep people from getting sick, rather than expensive technology to fix problems after they occur. Health indicators are what the medical community use to measure how good a job they are doing, so it seems as if even they are admitting that there are major problems in our system.

 

I don't think this "whatever wrong must be your fault" mentality is a constructive argument. Einstein said something to the effect that you can judge how successful a society is by how well it treats it's poor. In this country, it seems that decent, hard-working people are not even getting a fair shake anymore.

 

As far as my money being used to help others, I would much rather my tax money be spent on an American that needs antibiotics, than on bombs to kill innocent Iraqis.

[DanInPA]

Slam me if you must.

I just read this thread for the first time, and I did skim parts, but here is my general opinion.

 

Big business may suck, but give control of something as important as healthcare to the government and all but the wealthiest and most influential will suffer.

 

Now, if our gov. was more like the original intent, i.e. by the people, for the people then I'd be of a different opinion. But it's not.

 

The way things are, however, all they would do is make matters worse. Mega-dollars wasted on a ridiculous and unnecessary beauracracy. Just look at the IRS. Or any number of federal programs.

 

I know situations suck for some of us, but I don't think Gov't control is the answer. At least not in it's current state.

 

Also, as far as living standards go, we need to put things in perspective. When I was a kid, most families had one car, maybe two TV's (the second one black and white), a very modest home in the city, we walked to school rather than being driven, one parent usually was a homemaker (no daycare costs) we didn't care about the latest (read expensive) sneakers or clothes, and we got expensive stuff only (maybe) twice a year, not anytime we wanted them.

 

My grandmother, who raised me, would go years without a new dress so that I could keep up with other kids. How many parents nowadays would make that kind of sacrifice?

 

It kind of burns me to hear parents who make a combined income well into six digits, have a $300,000 house, two $40,000 vehicles, four TV's, three computers and digital cable, pay a thousand dollars a month to let their children to be raised by some kid who makes eight bucks an hour because "we can't afford for one of us to stay home".

 

Background:

I'm 42, blew free college (paid for by mom) by partying too much, worked mininum wage for a while, lucked into a mid/upper blue collar position, been there for 18 years. Things could be better, but they sure as hell could be worse.

 

And yes, Megistias, ".... there is no reason to be so disrespectful to the people in this conversation. Compassion and empathy are essential to all, someday you may need some too."

 

Dan

[necrosmith]

As far as my money being used to help others, I would much rather my tax money be spent on an American that needs antibiotics, than on bombs to kill innocent Iraqis.

 

Here, here.

 

Best comment in the entire thread and there have been some good ones.

[Japedo]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will set aside your classless irrelevant comments. I refuse to have a pissing contest with such a huge dick. I have no idea why you're so completely hostile,rude and just plain disrespectful but this will be my last comment to you on the topic.

 

Issues aside, I'd like to say in closing that as far as my stance goes on any marriage issue, it's up to the individual alone I don't believe government should be involved in any aspect of our private lives. Had you not jumped to conclusion and assumed you knew my stance on anything, you'd know that I'm a Libertarian and don't believe 'government' is the answer to 90% of our problems.

 

You have way jumped the gun. You apparently sign up here believing we are all supporters of socialism/communism or some such. You haven't taken the time to get to know anyone here,yet you sit in judgment making a complete ass out of yourself . You have left a First impression with me, and just so we're clear I'll share it.

 

I personally view you as an obnoxious asshole with all the charm and charisma of Manson. You're full of yourself and your narrow opinions, you don't want to discuss things, you want to bark your opinions like were all clueless, uneducated peons just drooling at our keyboard waiting to hear your oh so wonderful wisdom. Get bent

[Chad3232132]

 

Ok, so lets look at your life. Seriously.

 

 

Seriously...

 

Self-made business owner with a 4-year college degree - living better than my folks did at my age. Not in the top 2% of American wealth, but upper middle class. Would probably have to pay more taxes if we decided to provide universal health insurance and am willing to do so. Would you now like to know why?

 

1. Even though I'm doing better than my parents did at my age, my children are not doing as well as I did at their age. College is not affordable anymore - play all the blame games you want when it gets right down to the statistics college is not accessable to most young people who have the grades to get in. Our eldest daughter is graduating from college next spring with a managable debt because we have been able to help her. Most of her college friends are not so lucky, most of them will be starting adult life with a debt load far heavier than I ever dreamed of at their age. (Measuring debt load by percentage of income - and trust me I've done the math, because I find it horrid that our country has allowed this to happen. When I graduated college I had a debt load equal to what I would have had if I'd purchased a new car. That is the debt load our daughter will have, about $20,000. Most of her friends could double, or triple that easily. And they all work, my daughter and all of her college friends.)

 

2. Neither one of my young adult - hard working - responsible children will be able to get health care insurance from their first employer. Our 18 year old son just graduated high-school, works for a commercial builder in a large metro area with plenty of work. He is in line for an apprenticeship - as soon as one opens up. He will not be able to get health care coverage until after he gets through an apprenticeship program, could be 5 years.

 

3. When our daughter graduates college the statistics show that she will not qualify for health care coverage from her first employer. Both of our hard working, intelligent and capable young adult children will have to go without healthcare insurance for 4-5 years into their adult lives - if they are lucky.

 

4. In addition to that I am willing to pay more taxes to provide universal health care coverage because our parents are not doing as well as their parents in retirement. My mother-in-law must purchase her drugs from Mexico because our country can not see fit to sell the same drugs at a reasonable cost. We may joke about our 84 year-old uncle making a drug run to Mexico for his elderly siblings - but it's a sick joke. And simple statistics show that this is considered normal in our country now, pretty sick if you ask me.

 

So... how about you. Are you in the top 2% bracket, if not are you upper middle class. Are you taking the stand you are taking for selfish reasons - because you don't feel it should be your concern that:

 

1. Young adults can not afford college... even when they work their way through college they still come out with a very high debt load.

 

2. Young adults cannot get health insurance and are going uninsured by the thousands.

 

3. Elderly people are not getting access to the health care and drugs they need because of costs.

 

That is why I question your priorities, and it is why so many of us have mentioned the damned boat. Big deal you have a boat - what's that got to do with simple facts. Facts that many, many, people in this country are working hard and doing everything they can to get ahead and they are still not able to afford good healthcare, good healthcare coverage, or able to purchase a home.

 

In the end, we could do a little objective poll, if you like....

 

* Ask people who have young-adult children if those children are doing as well as they themselves did 20 years ago.

 

* Ask young adults what their debt load will be when they graduate college. Ask for specifics, how many dollars will you be in debt when you graduate? Measure that against the cost of a good automobile.

 

* Ask young adults if they are able to get health insurance from their first employer out of college, or highschool.

 

If you're really interested in hard facts instead of everyone's "personal stories" then do a poll, see what the statistics are, then SHUT UP

 

That has to be the best post I've read in some time Openminded. You summed up a lot of the things I've thought of, and I'm sure many other Americans have for a very long time, but had trouble putting into words. For a person to even get a good job with good healthcare coverage you must get through atleast 4 years of college. Most people don't even realize that it is damn near impossible to obtain any health coverage while IN college. So that alone is taking a big risk.

 

Some prefer to live in an alternate reality as it relates to healthcare in America, and I choose not to. Even if I get my dream job with the best healthcare of anyone in the country I have every intention of not forgetting where I once was, and I won't forget about the average Americans working long hours with little to no health coverage. It's ashame so many still honestly believe in this miserable failure of a healthcare system. Well.. either that or they just don't care about other human beings.

[crazy-tiger]

I keep seeing this "just show me who has better health care" statement coming up. It would be nice if any of you out there in Canada, England, Germany, or anyplace else, would weigh in on this. I can't speak from personal experience, but I worked for a large Enlglish company for a couple of years and the English guys I worked with loved their country's health system. In fact, some of them would catch a plane back to England when they were sick rather than go to an American doctor.

Someone called...?

 

Currently, here in the UK, there is blanket health coverage... everyone is entitled to a certain level of healthcare, whether they have insurance or not. The limits are not usually financial, but chronological...

No one needs to pay a nice, huge sum just to see a GP/Dentist/Nurse or the like... It's all paid for by taxes. (and before you say anything, it's not a seperate tax... it's all lumped in together) Admittedly, some of the brand-new, super expensive treatments are not available in this system, but as time goes by, they do end up being available as the price drops. (sounds harsh... but if the price for 1 new treatment would pay for 100 people getting the old treatment, then they have to go with the 100...)

 

The time limit is due to often having to wait for less critical procedures... damn near 2 years for hip replacements, just for example, while things like heart bypass is just a few weeks to a few months. This is an unfortunate side-effect of blanket healthcare.

 

Now, you can still take out health insurance, which will often enable you to "jump the queue" as it were... sounds good in practice, but what often happens is those with insurance use the standard healthcare and claim for the procedure, pocketing the cash...

This happens mainly with dental/eye care, but extends as far as full-blown operations... This places a massive amount of strain on the system and is no more than a scam. Small wonder there are queues...

 

 

All in all, the healthcare system here is superior to the US in that no-one gets excluded.

[Dianka]

Interesting....my utopian healthcare system is no utopia....HUF

 

You crushed my dreams, CT.

 

=)~