What Do I Believe?

[mymistake]

 

So please, pretty please, with sugar on top, provide a defensible and reasoned argument substantiating your assertions and deal with the solid counter-arguments that have already been presented to you with something other than merely more scripture quotes.

 

Nice essay but you might as well ask Barnacleben to sprout wings and fly.  It is beyond his ability.  I was tempted to write a similar essay and ask him why he believes in Trinity when St. Paul did not.  But we have already seen that Barnacleben will only regurgitate whatever his religious authority told him to believe.  If the mods want to flush him before he gets too annoying then that's a good idea.  There isn't much potential there.

[ExCBooster]

 

Tell us something you believe that doesn't quote or ref a bible verse.

I believe it is really special that God made the force of gravity proportional to the inverse squared and not ~^2.091234482348498 or something. It makes gravity simple to mathematically model so that it can be easily introduced into a wide range of applied physics problems.

 

Now, hold your horses, he did say this.

 

And it's completely mathematically illiterate. (The inverse square thing is an approximation. Here's the more complete version.) And it's also circular reasoning: "Mathematics works because mathematics works. Also God." These conclusions don't follow. However, I do see what he's driving at, mainly that God created everything just so. That's the old Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. We are here, therefore it must be just so. Nope. The only way we can observe it is if we're here. It's like firing a wild shot at the side of a barn, and drawing a bullseye around the bullet hole. Perfect shot. Of course. Absolute tosh.

 

If you really believe that, and have a decent working knowledge of the natural world, the only reasonable conclusion is that God's incompetent at best, or actually EVIL. So, why bother worshipping? Have some examples, on the house. Smallpox. What killed it off for good? It wasn't God. It was science. Why doesn't the Bible, provided by an all-knowing and benevolent God, have stuff like instructions for vaccination in it? That would have been nice. Also, Guinea Worms. Various horrible parasites. Various fun natural instincts. Like obligate siblicide. Oooh - intrauterine cannibalism. No joke. Rabbits are pretty notorious for flipping out and eating their own young.

 

Oh, and don't give me any of that "it was the fall" nonsense, either. God is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent, oh, and "just" whatever that means. So, it was, by definition a set-up. He foresaw it (omnipotent and all). These characteristics just don't go together, given what we observe of the natural world. So, you can have omnipotent, and omniscient, but not benevolent. Or benevolent, but totally powerless. God's either evil, or not God. This thing you believe in simply doesn't exist.

 

Edit: slightly trimmed for concision.

[mymistake]

God designed our universe just for us.  That is why over 99.99999999999999% of it is completely lethal to us.  Even our planet is mostly lethal to humans.  We can't build homes on the oceans.  We can't live in the Arctic or Antarctic.  Our primary light source causes cancer.  And then when you are sitting there minding your own business you appendix blows up for no reason.  Thanks a lot God!  What a great designer!

 

Of course if God is imaginary and our universe unfolded by itself due to natural causes then none of these facts are the least bit surprising.

[ExCBooster]

Also, choking. Nice move, that, making things in your own image where the food hole and air hole are the same hole. Creator must love snakes more. Or, a complete moron. Or, you know, doesn't exist.

[florduh]

I believe that if life gives you lemons, you should make lemonade... And try to find somebody whose life has given them vodka, and have a party.
Ron White 
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/i_believe.html#3SmpYLx0byui1dUc.99 

 

I believe in equality for everyone, except reporters and photographers.

Mahatma Gandhi 
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/i_believe.html#3SmpYLx0byui1dUc.99 

[mymistake]

I believe in equality for everyone, except reporters and photographers.

Mahatma Gandhi 

 

 

[florduh]

I believe there is something out there watching us. Unfortunately, it's the government.
Woody Allen 
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/i_believe_2.html#PK7VIYavQV14Ak3L.99 

[directionless]

It's a shame to see people wasting their time and effort reasoning with a troll. If you read all the posts carefully it's obvious he is a troll.

 

It would be interesting to talk with some real Christians of different types, but this is just a troll. Somebody ought to close the thread IMO.

[florduh]

I could lock the thread, OR we could all post what we believe. 

 

I believe Ben is a bored little troll, possibly still in high school.

 

I believe most of us have read the Bible, rejected it, and don't need to read it again reprinted in his posts.

 

I believe Ben should start saying his farewells to the friends he's made here.

 

I believe it's almost time for lunch. Later.

[HymenaeusAlexander]

 

 

So please, pretty please, with sugar on top, provide a defensible and reasoned argument substantiating your assertions and deal with the solid counter-arguments that have already been presented to you with something other than merely more scripture quotes.

 

Nice essay but you might as well ask Barnacleben to sprout wings and fly.  It is beyond his ability.

 

I agree. But hope springs eternal. And to borrow your example, perhaps requesting that he sprout wings and fly will help him to understand that he can't fly. He seems to have the mistaken notion that he can because someone told him so and he believed them.

[JamesG]

most obvious sign of trollage is that he cannot respond to one direct question. He just cant do it. Therefore we can reasonably assume he is either in over his head or he is an ass that the Gewd Loward gave the power to type. Where is end3? His topic posts are at least interesting and he tries to defend what he comes up with.

[waitingongod]

As always, Ben could call upon his god to offer up an irrefutable sign, and his god would answer his prayers (or not, depending on his god's will).  Thus far, I have yet to see such sign, unless, of course, it is his god's will.  In which case, it wouldn't matter anywhere, and the circle starts again.

 

Seriously, why does anyone who believes in a supernatural being try to argue logically?  Just have your god(s) do something that shows their supernatural ability!!  

 

It gets so tiring going around and around and around.

 

Just for the record, I stole the lengthy response to Ben from the first page, that was really good.  I'm adding that to my collection of "people's responses that were much better than anything I could come up with" file.

[Thackerie]

 

I believe it is really special that God made the force of gravity proportional to the inverse squared and not ~^2.091234482348498 or something. It makes gravity simple to mathematically model so that it can be easily introduced into a wide range of applied physics problems.

 

Ben, your god couldn't find two people in a fucking garden, and can't forgive unless you smear blood all over something.  It's far, far too stupid to make anything more complicated than a mudpie.

 

Florduh, My vote is to show this obstinate troll the door -- If he can't even follow some painfully simple moderator instructions and STFU with the Bible verses, I doubt very much that he's capable of quality dialogue with the rest of us.

 

 

Yeah, this troll isn't even amusing. Just boooooooooooooooooring.

[HymenaeusAlexander]

As always, Ben could call upon his god to offer up an irrefutable sign, and his god would answer his prayers (or not, depending on his god's will).  Thus far, I have yet to see such sign, unless, of course, it is his god's will.  In which case, it wouldn't matter anywhere, and the circle starts again.

 

Seriously, why does anyone who believes in a supernatural being try to argue logically?  Just have your god(s) do something that shows their supernatural ability!!  

 

“Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.”

[Bhim]

most obvious sign of trollage is that he cannot respond to one direct question. He just cant do it. Therefore we can reasonably assume he is either in over his head or he is an ass that the Gewd Loward gave the power to type. Where is end3? His topic posts are at least interesting and he tries to defend what he comes up with.

Heh, I hope I didn't scare End3 away. I have to say though that I prefer Ben. End's posts always feel like a word salad to me. He's vague, cursory, and generally uninteresting. At least Ben writes something of substance and appears to exhibit some intelligence in his posts. Yes, he quotes the Bible extensively, but he also supplements that with his own original interpretation and connects it to the discussion at hand.

 

I'd be fine with continuing to converse with Ben. I do appear to be in the minority though.

[Guest end3]

 

no fair-minded moderator would close the thread because they didn't enjoy what I was saying.

 

First, I don't have to be fair, but I am anyway. I closed the thread not because I don't agree with your beliefs but because there is no productive discussion when one participant relies on quoting books rather than making his own intelligent argument.

 

You thread closing bastard.  Next think you know you'll be protesting mud wrestling.  You will feel alive just like the 60's.

[florduh]

I'm a dick. What can I say? See you in the mud, end3.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

You believe whatever your chosen religious authority tells you to believe.  You are a slave.

I Christ I am free, but those who do not believe are slaves to sin and unbelief:

 

Not true. Without Christ, I sure feel free and the "sins" that don't hurt anyone when I engage in them are really fun. No slavery here. When I believed in your Christ, I was a slave, trapped in a cult, afraid that a sadistic god would torture me after I die.

 

Go on believing what you want barnacleben, I won't stop you, but it really won't matter what you say. Most people here have no intention of going back to your cult, sorry to disappoint you. We already know that you worship an immoral thug and call it "God" and want nothing to do with it. Also, by calling your deity "God", you are saying that it created the universe and everything in it, while the other gods people believe in are false. That's a pretty arrogant belief.

[LivingLife]

[seeker001]

The bible itself can not be used as proof, you need external documentation to support it.  Quotes, by themselves, do not make your case, because you are supposed to back up why you believe as you do.  Your arguments are supposed to come from you; quotes are meant to supplement your point. While sometimes it is good to leave something to stand for itself, but it should not be the meat of your argument. It is up to you to explain why we should believe it.

 

Even putting in your personal experience is better than just quoting scripture. Even if personal experience can't be used as evidence, but it would at least make your case a little more understandable.  

[mymistake]

The bible itself can not be used as proof, you need external documentation to support it.  Quotes, by themselves, do not make your case, because you are supposed to back up why you believe as you do.  Your arguments are supposed to come from you; quotes are meant to supplement your point. While sometimes it is good to leave something to stand for itself, but it should not be the meat of your argument. It is up to you to explain why we should believe it.

 

Even putting in your personal experience is better than just quoting scripture. Even if personal experience can't be used as evidence, but it would at least make your case a little more understandable.  

 

 

Quoting the Bible is evidence as much as quoting the Egyptian Book of the Dead is evidence.

[Fweethawt]

Keep an eye out for a new member called, 'Pilgrim'. He hasn't posted anything yet. But in his profile he states that he knows how to obtain Truth and considers it his personal mission to bring that Truth not only to fellow christians, but to everyone else, too, simply by USING ONLY BIBLE VERSES.

 

Ben's relative perhaps?

 

Here's what's there -- FROM PILGRIM'S PROFILE

 

I am 81 years old and know the difference between truth and falsehood.<br />I have a science background and am of reasonable intelligence. I belong to no denominational Christian church. However, I am a Bible believer. I believe in the right of every person to accept or deny the Bible and Christianity being true and I agree with most of the comments on this website. I do not argue or try to &quot;save&quot; anyone.<br />It is my goal in life to correct all the lies, misunderstandings, false teachings, and mind conditioning of living Christians and non Christians by using only Bible verses rather than all the teachings of men and women.<br /><br />I believe in the father God of the Bible and his son Jesus Christ as the creators of all, based on personal experience and over 50 years of in-depth research.

[seeker001]

 

spam, spam, spam, spam

[seeker001]

edit: Double post, just noticed 

[duderonomy]

 

Since you are the moderator, you have the authority to silence me, and I submit to that authority, as I am called to do in scripture:

Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust.(1Pet2)

 

I guess this is a test. Perhaps a challenge.

 

 

It is both a test of your authority, and a challenge to your reason for locking of the other thread.  barnacleben is trying to be wily here.  Why? He doesn't seem to be stupid.

Just in case he isn't a troll, but instead has doubts about his Bible, why not keep him around so long as he obeys the rules?

 

Those of us who don't want to read his scripture posts don't have to read them. Myself, I'm getting a bit of a kick out of it.  I'd forgotten a lot of the verses ben uses, so it's fun to see them again with instant refutations.