Uggh--Another Issue To Work Through-- Crucifixion Issue

[ExCBooster]

Kris, take a deep breath and relax. Slow down... PM me over it if you want to.

 

The absence of an eclipse, or any other recorded astronomical or "darkness" or whatever happening, for that time period, in China, is, in fact, the smoking gun that it's a bunch of baloney. It's made of baloney, beginning to end. This is, in fact, some of the most glaringly blatant baloney you've been stressing about. Starting with Sykes (Anglican scholar), and the people he's arguing against (Catholics). Hey, there, conflict of interest! Both sides are just using "The Chinese" as a parable. The documents any of them mention categorically DO NOT EXIST.

Chinese scholars have checked it: non-existent.

Why is this such a big deal? The Chinese records at the time record EVERYTHING even remotely out of the ordinary. They even mention "purple dragons wreathed in smoke" the odd rainbow, funny shaped clouds, and weird dreams people had, or the appearance of a qilin. Do you think a magical, scaled, prong-horned dragon/unicorn came out of the woods and grazed in the Emperor's gardens?? The Chinese record that it did. They DO NOT record any type of darkness, scheduled or unscheduled, for anything in the vicinity of 32 AD. And, believe me, they would have.

Sykes is dead wrong about a boatload of things - the Chinese New Year doesn't start in March, it's a luni-solar calendar, hence the eclipse prediction - but he IS right that the "Chinese records" that Father whoever quotes do not exist. They chose the date for the new year, the same way they predicted eclipses, by charting the path of the sun and moon. This year, a year of the horse, starts close to our new year, on January 14th. It will be 2014 AD by our reckoning, and 4712 by (one of) theirs. Each Emperor had his astronomers work with his minister of rites and pick auspicious era names, and starting years. Years are counted by what year of an Emperor's chosen era names it was. 32 AD for the Chinese was Jianwu 7. It is, in fact, dead easy to see if anything out of the ordinary happened in a Chinese year. You crack open the biography of Emperor Guangwu of Han and see if anything went down in Jianwu 7. And you check the astronomy charts, and records, and see if any events are recorded worthy of note in Jianwu 7. It's very straightforward. NOTHING is there. ZIP, ZILCH, NADA. The astronomers and ministry of rites would have jumped all over an unscheduled eclipse, or "darkness" or whatever. Heads would have rolled over it. Literally. Several early astronomers were executed for incompetence, before they really got things down, but that's over a millennia before the period we're talking about. That's why I can say with certainty, none of that happened. No eclipse, of any kind, no darkness. DID NOT HAPPEN. It's not like these sources are rare, either: if you can read Classical Chinese, here's the Hou Han Shu or Book of Later Han. "Chinese sources" are no huge secret in the Information Age.

These European asshats from 300 years ago are all lying, and for their own reasons. The Catholic sources Sykes is making fun of, are lying and citing "the Chinese" to boost their case, and Sykes himself is lying, with a total incomprehension of how the Chinese calendar system even works, to make them look bad.

 

That's what's happening here. Lies. Lots of them. Now, the real problem, Kris, is that you're still assuming that people want to tell the truth, that if sources are mentioned, they're out there. Not without citations. Proper citations, or it didn't happen. Annotate that bibliography. Post the links to primary sources.

[ExCBooster]

Here's why none of these claims of "darkness" or whatever worldwide at the time of the crucifixion make any sense:

 

 

1. It's coming from uneducated (in this topic) European scholars way out of their weight class when it comes to Chinese history, and blatantly making things up.

2. Okay, then, explain to me what proof there is that the crucifixion even happened, that this Jesus guy lived, and that everything went down, just like in the New Testament... Oh, wait, the four books of the New Testament are actually internally inconsistent, so... scratch that one. The Bible says so, you say? Do you consult the Enuma Elish about what car to buy?

3. Show me where it says that it happened in 32 AD... turns out we base our calendar on some very shaky stuff, indeed, rather than when an Emperor says a new era should begin.

4. The claims fly in the face of entire supremely predictive disciplines of physics and mathematics. Does 2 + 2 = 4??

5. It's the word of a bunch of heavily politically embroiled scholars, over 300 years ago.

 

This is, frankly, the sketchiest claim I've ever seen.

[Kris]

 I may have something-- Arthur reports that the end of a third moon would be a "new moon"-- so if that is the case-- Passover always happens during a "full moon"-- thus, even if this supposed eclipse happened during the same month as a purported crucifixion year-- it couldn't be during the crucifixion time of Passover.  So, while the dates may look close-- things wouldn't add up? 

 

This all hinges on what the Chinese meant by the "end of a third moon"-- seems to me that this would be the end of moon cycle-- when the moon was disappearing or had totally disappeared.  if that is the case, I think there could be a logical argument that this eclipse could not have happened during the crucifixion. 

 

Could any of the astronomers of the bunch help me out with this?  Something tangible like this would really help ease my mind.  I am still working on when Chinese new years start-- from what I can tell, in late BC and early AD, the Chinese decided that the Winter Solstice started the 11th month for them-- so around December 21st-- they were beginning month 11  (Dec 21-Jan 21 or so) , then month 12 (Jan 21-Feb 21 or so), month 1 (Feb 21-March 21 or so) month 2 (March 21-April 21 or so) and then month 3 (April 21-May 21 or so.  I think that this may be how Sykes came up with March as a new year month.  So the third moon would likely correspond with the moon that came about during late April-early May?  But I think my earlier argument is the stronger one, if I could validate that the end of a third moon truly meant the moon was going away-- and not full. 

 

What does everyone think?   I know for some of you, this is probably really stupid.  But this is very important to me. 

[Overcame Faith]

I may have something-- Arthur reports that the end of a third moon would be a "new moon"-- so if that is the case-- Passover always happens during a "full moon"-- thus, even if this supposed eclipse happened during the same month as a purported crucifixion year-- it couldn't be during the crucifixion time of Passover.  So, while the dates may look close-- things wouldn't add up? 

 

This all hinges on what the Chinese meant by the "end of a third moon"-- seems to me that this would be the end of moon cycle-- when the moon was disappearing or had totally disappeared.  if that is the case, I think there could be a logical argument that this eclipse could not have happened during the crucifixion. 

 

Could any of the astronomers of the bunch help me out with this?  Something tangible like this would really help ease my mind.  I am still working on when Chinese new years start-- from what I can tell, in late BC and early AD, the Chinese decided that the Winter Solstice started the 11th month for them-- so around December 21st-- they were beginning month 11  (Dec 21-Jan 21 or so) , then month 12 (Jan 21-Feb 21 or so), month 1 (Feb 21-March 21 or so) month 2 (March 21-April 21 or so) and then month 3 (April 21-May 21 or so.  I think that this may be how Sykes came up with March as a new year month.  So the third moon would likely correspond with the moon that came about during late April-early May?  But I think my earlier argument is the stronger one, if I could validate that the end of a third moon truly meant the moon was going away-- and not full. 

 

What does everyone think?   I know for some of you, this is probably really stupid.  But this is very important to me.

 

Kris, I am working on some things for you. I can't finish this tonight, but I should be able tomorrow. I think that the date of the new moons in 32 ad is a key that may help you. Hold up and do not allow yourself to become depressed over this. Get all thoughts of suicide out of your mind. Forbid such thoughts from your mind.

 

I have known you for a long time now. I promise you that there is nothing to all of this!

[Kris]

Thanks so much Overcame. I really do appreciate any info you can come up with. I am really trying to come up with something to so thoroughly debunk this in my mind. I promise I won't do anything stupid-- and I really appreciate everyone's help on these really weird issues. I just want to shut out the worry!!

[Overcame Faith]

Thanks so much Overcame. I really do appreciate any info you can come up with. I am really trying to come up with something to so thoroughly debunk this in my mind. I promise I won't do anything stupid-- and I really appreciate everyone's help on these really weird issues. I just want to shut out the worry!!

Okay,good. I will be back on this as soon as possible. Hang in there.

[LivingLife]

Here's a thought. The whole tale of Exodus never really happened. There are oodles of valid research that disproves this on a myriad of levels. Therefore the whole passover piece is moot regarding the crucifiction.

 

The NT was a haphazard attempt to link a man made god to Hebrew prophesy and scripture which of itself is NOT original.

 

In a nutshell it is folklore based on earlier folklore. None of it actually happened as reported. I would give the writings a 1% credibility as far as history goes and that is being generous.

[Overcame Faith]

Kris, see if this doesn't help to relieve your difficulties.

 

As I understand your problem, it is that there was a report allegedly made in China in the year 32 that there was an unexplained total solar eclipse.  The argument made is that this coincided exactly with the alleged date of Jesus' crucifixion which these people claim took place in the year 32.

 

First, if Jesus was crucified in the year 32, it had to be on the day of Passover.  According to what I have found, Passover occurred on in the year 32 on what would correspond to our modern calendar of April 14, 32.  Therefore, it is only if what the Chinese alleged reported (which, of course, they vehemently disputed) occurred on April 14, 32 that there is anything for you to worry about.

 

Let's look at what was written (I took this from your post in which you quoted that fairly long and difficult to read passage).  Here's what it says, "In the 28th year of this cycle, the 7th year of the reign of Quam-vu-t, the last day of the 3d moon, there was a memorable total eclipse...."  Therefore, it is only if the last day of the 3d moon falls on April 14, 32 is there anything for you to worry yourself over.

 

Here's what I did.  I have a very, very good astronomy program on my computer.  In that program, I can go to any place on earth on any day or hour of my choosing and can, through the use of this program, observe what a person living at that time would have seen in the sky.  It's a remarkable program, but made possible because they use algorithms since it's all just math (not that I fully understand it).

 

On that program, I "went" to china and "observed" the phases of the moon.  The Chinese calenar is quite complex and I do not fully understand it.  It is a combintation of a lunar calendar and a solar calendar.  The Chinese were quite excellent astronomers, the best in the ancient world.  In looking for information, I found that the lunar portion of the calendar begins on the new moon (when it is dark) and ends on the day before the next new moon.

 

Remember, that the allegation is that this supposed unexpected solar eclipse occurred on the last day of the 3d moon.  I have no idea which is the first, second, or third moon.  Therefore, I observed when the new moons occurred in the months of January, February, March, and April in the year 32.  These are the results:

 

Jan 01, 32

Jan 30, 32

Feb 28, 32

Mar 29, 32

Apr 27, 32.

 

One of those would have to be the third moon, though I don't know which it would be.  However, I do know when the last day of each of these moons is.  They are:

 

Jan 29

Feb 27

Mar 28

April 26

May 26

 

Please note that none of the dates for the last day of any of the moons falls on April 14.  Therefore, even if there was a solar eclipse in China on the last day of the third moon, it did not occur on April 14, 32.

 

I hope this helps.

[Kris]

Oh my gosh, Overcame-- that program is absolutely awesome-- thank you so much for running that calculation for me-- it definitely clarifies that I was on the right track with what I was thinking.... That if the crucifixion was at Passover ( which is always during a full moon!!)-- as described on the bible, it couldn't have been at the end of a third moon-- because this would be either the tiniest sliver of a moon or no moon--which is what the new moon basically is. Your calculations definitely back that up. As usual, you are my hero!! Thanks so much for doing this--you truly made my day!!

[Overcame Faith]

You're welcome. On a side note, I also "went" to Jerusalem at noon on April 14, 32 and "observed" the sun until 3:00 PM. Those are the hours, according to three of the Gospels, for the supposed eclipse. I am sure you will not be surprised at what I did not see. That's right, i did not see a solar eclipse. In fact, the moon did not appear until the night, making an eclipse absolutely impossible!

 

The authors of the gospels, in writing their lies, never dreamed that one day we would have sophisticated computers and astronomy programs so we could uncover their deceptions.

[Kris]

Well that is something. That program sounds awesome!!

[Overcame Faith]

Well that is something. That program sounds awesome!!

It is an awesome program. I read a few accounts that suggested that Jesus was born in September of 4 bce. I went to my trusty program and went to that date. This time I "observed" in which sign of the Zodiac the sun was in during that month. Take a guess which zodiac constellation the sun was in. I will give you a hint: it had something to do with Mary, Jesus' mother.

[Kris]

Virgo????!

 

What time of night did the moon rise in 32ad---only because that was supposedly a"blood moon" eclipse-- and so was 33ad. -- some Christians try to tie Peter's Pentecost speech to the blood moon in 33, and occasionally 32. I saw that crap when trying to research eclipses. A number of folks debate how much of the moon could actually be seen in Jerusalem though.

[Overcame Faith]

Virgo????!

What time of night did the moon rise in 32ad---only because that was supposedly a"blood moon" eclipse-- and so was 33ad. -- some Christians try to tie Peter's Pentecost speech to the blood moon in 33, and occasionally 32. I saw that crap when trying to research eclipses. A number of folks debate how much of the moon could actually be seen in Jerusalem though.

Yes, Virgo, the virgin. If Jesus was born in September, he was not born to a virgin, but was born under the sign of the virgin. I thought that was interesting.

 

I did not note when the moon rose nor anything about a blood moon.

[Kris]

Well that is interesting-- there are a number of mythicists who think the gospel writers utilized the zodiac-- 12 disciples, sun of god, the cross and now with your discovery--- the Virgo (virgin!!)

[kolaida]

Wow, that is really interesting with the Virgo/Virgin thing. I had never really thought about the gospel writers using the zodiac, but I guess that does make sense. 

[bornagainathiest]

Hello again Kris! 

 

Hopefully I can help calm your fears about the blood Moon prophecy.  Please take a look at the following links and images.

 

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/home/15357796.html

 

When the Moon moves thru the Earth's shadow, sunlight passing thru our atmosphere is refracted and reddened, in just the same way as the Sun itself appears reddened when it sets or rises.  So, the Moon itself doesn't change color - it just appears to from our p.o.v., here on the Earth.

 

Total lunar eclipses occur most years, so they're not something unusual, mysterious or cataclysmic.  They're well understood and entirely natural events.  Sometimes, when there's a lot of volcanic dust suspended in the atmosphere the Moon can take on a bluish tint when it's being eclipsed.  This happened the year that Mount Pinatubo erupted in the Phillipines.

 

Anyway, if you have any questions, just let me know, o.k.?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

 

 

This map shows which portions of the Earth would see a blood Moon and how deep a red color it would appear to different continents.

 

 

This shows the path of the Moon as it's orbit carries it thru the Earth's shadow.  See how it's been colored orange-red, to simulate how obcervers on Earth would see it?

 

 

Here's how the lining up of the Sun, Earth and Moon lead to a blood Moon.

 

[Kris]

Thanks for that info BAA!! I am really trying to ignore the stupid blood moon prophecies-- In fact, I told myself that if I could resolve this darn Chinese issue in my mind-- which I have thanks to all of you!!--- that I would quit looking religious things up for a long time.

 

I am sorry if I caused concern with what I said about being depressed---I really was in a dark place with this--- just the mere thought of turning back to Christianity is something so horrible that I am not sure that I could deal with it-- and that was why it was so important to me to work this all out. Again-- thanks so much for being here for people like me--- when we get scared by religion, we often don't have anywhere to turn -- you people on this site have assuaged the fears of many people--- I see it all the time. You are awesome, and I am grateful for you!!!

[RankStranger]

Once you've seen enough information and comparisons to become convinced that The Bible is just another collections of myths copied and embellished from older myths... there are no more issues to 'work through'.

[bornagainathiest]

Thanks for that info BAA!! I am really trying to ignore the stupid blood moon prophecies-- In fact, I told myself that if I could resolve this darn Chinese issue in my mind-- which I have thanks to all of you!!--- that I would quit looking religious things up for a long time.

 

I am sorry if I caused concern with what I said about being depressed---I really was in a dark place with this--- just the mere thought of turning back to Christianity is something so horrible that I am not sure that I could deal with it-- and that was why it was so important to me to work this all out. Again-- thanks so much for being here for people like me--- when we get scared by religion, we often don't have anywhere to turn -- you people on this site have assuaged the fears of many people--- I see it all the time. You are awesome, and I am grateful for you!!!

 

Not a problem Kris! 

 

Here's some more stuff that should help you.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_Grand_Tour

 

The key point from this Wiki page is this... "...the grand tour would have exploited the alignment of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, an event that would occur in the late 1970's and not recur for 175 years."

 

See that?  The alignment of these planets recurs.  And not just once, but over and over and over again.  Every 175 years, to be precise.  Likewise, when it comes to the alignment of the Sun, Moon and Earth.  They line up in different ways from year to year, from decade to decade and from century to century... but if you wait long enough THE SAME ALIGNMENT REPEATS ITSELF!

 

So this upcoming tetrad of eclipses sounds like something really significant and miraculous - but it only looks that way from the very small timespan of a human life or of the not-very-long timespan of recorded human history.  In the long view of astronomical science 6,000 years or even 16,000 years is nothing - just the blink of an eye!  The planets and the Sun have been orbiting quite happily for B-I-L-L-I-O-N-S of years, thank you very much!  (Think like Carl Sagan, ok? )

 

Take a look at this.

http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEcat5/LEcatalog.html

The official NASA stats on lunar eclipses from 4,000 years ago to 1,000 years in the future.  All calculated by computers and based upon thousands and thousands of hours of meticulous observations by hard-working, dedicated astronomers.  See?  There's nothing bizarre or supernatural at work here.  There will be 3,479 total lunar eclipses in that 5,000 year period.  So that's almost three and a half thousand opportunities for mother nature to create the spectacle of a blood moon in our skies.  No need for god! 

.

.

.

 

 

Now, Kris the most important point in this post isn't the science data, but this... 

 

-------------------------------------->  OBSERVATION  <--------------------------------------- 

 

 

I'll explain.

 

The ancient Jews were monotheists and this was their achilles heel, when it came to observing and understanding the world around them.  As far as they were concerned, there was only one source of truth in the universe - their god, Yahweh.  This truth was given to the Jews in a number of ways.

 

1. Directly.

When god physically interacted with humans. After the Fall god was always hidden from view, but nevertheless, the likes of Moses could draw close to him under certain special circumstances. 

 

2.By Word. 

Cain, Noah, Elijah and many others from the Old Testament heard the voice of Yahweh but they never saw him.

 

3. Via His Prophets.

Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Nathan, Samuel and so on.  These people received his word and relayed it to others.  Yahweh was never seen, but made his will known thru his prophets.

 

Nowhere in the Old Testament, the Hebrew Torah, the Mishnah, the Talmud or anywhere else in Jewish writings is there anything about observing the natural world to increase your understanding of it.  The Jews just didn't care about observing and understanding the seasons or the rains or the life cycle of animals.  Nope!  Everything they needed to know came only from Yahweh. 

 

And there you have it, Kris! 

 

Monotheism... the singular and total belief in only 1 god and 1 truth and 1 way of living kills observation, investigation and analysis of anything else... stone dead!  

 

Why observe anything else except god's commands?  Why investigate anything else except god's written word?  Why analyze anything else except god's Law?  There was simply no point in any ancient Jew studying anything else in his life except... Yahweh.  The same is true today, when it comes to the ultra-orthodox sects of Judaism.  They reject the knowledge and truth of this world in favor of the words of Yahweh, handed down to their forefathers, long ago.  Yahweh never changes, so his truth is the truth for all time and eternity.

 

We can even see this same mind-set at work with the Young Earth Creationist Christians.

They have as blinkered and as narrow a view of reality as the Jews.  Deliberately so, in fact.  For them God's word is the one, true description of reality and everything else (like science) is the work of Satan.  Like the Jews, the YEC's have rejected observation and investigation and analysis of everything except the words of their god.  They choose wilful ignorance of science every time.  This explains why they struggle to discredit Evolution.  They simply don't understand how science works in the first place.  They simply can't grasp that careful observation of nature yields understanding of it.  For them, this world is a temporary place, an irrelevance that god will do away with eventually.  So, just like the Jews they don't bother to try and observe, investigate or understand it..

 

Kris,

This wilful ignorance is the starting point and basis for all of this blood Moon prophecy nonsense.

So why can't the zealots see that blood Moon's are regular, repeated natural occurences?

Because they've turned their backs on everything except scripture. 

Because if it's not in scripture then it just isn't true.

Because their eyes are only on god.

 

On the other hand, you're starting to use your eyes to weigh up the evidence, right?  Stick with that and you'll get thru the irrational anxieties and fears!

 

All the best,

 

BAA

[Kris]

Thanks BAA! That is some really good info. I do agree that these seems to happen a lot. I gues the people that as espousing the blood moon prophecy are saying though that whenever rhis particular occurrence happens over Jerusalem, something big happens-- 32/ 33 was supposedly the birth if Jesus-- I think one happened around 48 and 67 so they tie these blood moons to Israel becoming a nation and winning the 6-day war. They say something big will happen in 2014/ 15. I quit looking up info on this though because I am trying to stay away from this kind of thing.

 

It is possible that these folks find the tetrads and then look for a historical event to link them to from Israel.

 

Anyway, I do agree with you that this configuration has occurred for eons--- before countries even existed--- and I actually find a reddish moon to be quite beautiful--- And not an omen ofanything.

 

I guess only time will tell if the blood moon in the next year or two will mark anything major--- some think Jesus will rapture people out, some think the temple will be rebuilt, some think there will be war-- if basically ANYTHING newsworthy happens in Israel, that is what will be tied to the blood moons. But we all know how lame that is!!

[sdelsolray]

Kris:  Perhaps you should spend some time studying astronomy.  It's a well developed and fascinating hard science.

[ExCBooster]

Hey, Kris, I thought I'd add some sources, so you can replace the scary stuff with nice, secure facts that can be backed up with evidence.

 

The Source Dump - Astronomy, Mathematics, and Record Keeping:

 

APOD (Astronomy Picture of the Day) - NASA's photo blog. Look at lots of really cool astronomy pictures, and read about the science behind them.

 

Here's another nice nugget of info, linked from the APOD from Sept 5: Chinese observation records of the supernova that created the Crab Nebula in 1054. Yeah, that's how precise the Chinese records were, when it comes to astronomy and observations. They recorded a "guest star," and noted the location, with information about colour and brightness as they tracked it over the time it was visible. It's good enough that astronomers take these sources seriously, to this day. A list of other confirmed supernova events, that were recorded historically. Note how many (especially the early ones, and the secure ones) that are marked "Chinese" - note also NONE are observed by the cultures that wrote the Bible. (For extra interest, two of the "secure" records are Chinese, from 386 AD and 393 AD - this was in the middle of a huge time of civil war and instability in Chinese history. That's right, not even the breakdown of civilization as they knew it stopped them from observation and record keeping.) The difference here is relative technology levels, and the meanings of eclipses, to the Chinese and the people who would go on to write the New Testament.

 

To the Later Han Dynasty Chinese of 32 AD or thereabouts, an eclipse was "what happens when the moon covers the sun, which occurs on a predictable, regular basis. I have the tables, right here, going back a few centuries, and the calculations, citations, and tables predicting eclipses that will happen later. If I mess up, which hasn't happened in a few hundred years, I'm going to be killed for incompetence. MESSILY... in fact, I think I'll double-check those calculations, right now, just to be safe." As a gage of how accurate Chinese mathematics was, here's an example, involving delicious Pi. Remember, just because it was a Long Time Ago, it doesn't mean people were stupid...

 

To the people who wrote what would become the New Testament, an eclipse was "that terrifying event where the sun gets swallowed up for no reason. Maybe the Chaos Wolves caught up with it! Go bang pots and pans and make a lot of noise, and maybe we can make them spit it out and chase them off. Either way, it's a Sign of something really bad." It was inconceivable to them that something BIG would happen, without an eclipse or some other event as a Sign, because they didn't have the mathematics or the knowledge or records to see that an eclipse was a predictable, regular event. They didn't know that an eclipse couldn't happen all on its own at any time. So, if you're writing the New Testament, and your whole point is that the crucifixion was a Big Event, it makes sense to add an eclipse (whether or not that actually could happen). Yes, this IS, in fact, a huge pointer that the accounts in the New Testament are embellished oral history at best, and more probably folklore or fiction. Give the four books good read-through, and spot as many inconsistencies as you can. There are lots, and not in insignificant ways.

 

Edit: forgot to link the historical supernova page. Derp. It's fixed now.

[Kris]

Thanks for the information Ex-C, I really do love astronomy-- and find space to be a beautiful thing!!

[Kris]

Help--- ran across this article and it has thrown my prior confidence a bit---- this article talks about how some Jesuit priests felt that a weird eclipse occurred and that the Chinese calculated it at the end of the month instead of the middle when it supposedly happened. There are a few priests who interpret things differently--- what do you think? I have been hanging my hat on the fact that the Chinese eclipse occcered during a new moon!

 

http://www.christianhospitality.org/resources/catastrophe-ad33.pdf