Guest JordanRiver Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 I see my thread was closed Sooo...ummm what if, and I do mean IF, the concept of ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is true? What if every X-Christian is still going to be saved. I know from reading that some here believe in some god, others do not. Some are agnostic etc. But at one point most everyone here was a Christian. Has anyone ever entertained the idea of once saved, always saved? (I am sure they have) I get that the biggest barrier to this conversation is going to be that most here do not believe in hell or heaven. But let us discuss nonetheless. Comments? P.S. I will try and take it down a few notches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 I was never "saved." I never went to an altar call and never actually got around to saying the Sinner's Prayer. (When I was 20, a preachy guy who hung out at the local laundromat tried to convince Me to do it, but I decided against it.) If hell exists, though, I've taken a vow to go there and stay there until everyone else has been released. I can't imagine how anyone could actually enjoy being in heaven while there are people suffering elsewhere. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 I don't want to be "saved" from anything by a deity that, if it really exists as described in the buybull, created all the shit it then claims to want to "save" me from. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JordanRiver Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 And I noticed that a lot of people here have an issue with God because of His morality Like people are upset because of what was recorded in the OT? I feel like if I can figure out a way to explain those things that most do not agree with (rape, murder etc.) then maybe, just maybe there might be peace hmmmm....just thinking/posting out loud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerk Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Galatians 5:4, Hebrews 3:8-12 make it quite clear that a Christian can fall from grace and be lost eternally. If there really was a god, and the god of the Bible was that god, then there would be no point in your hoping that the ex-Christians on this board might somehow wind up in Heaven anyway. But it's very clear from reading the Bible that what little of it may be historical isn't actually inspired by a perfect god who somehow oversaw the writing. Eternal reward and punishment don't even show up until the New Testament! The Jews started believing in those things about 200-100 BC, and even in the New Testament the Sadducees didn't believe in it, because it wasn't scriptural. So there are really no worries about Hell, but if you're hoping to go to Heaven, you're wasting your life. If you're doing good, you're not totally wasting it, but if you are remaining unmarried because you think it'll give you a better chance at Heaven, well that's not only a waste, it isn't really Biblical. I don't think Paul meant that for all time. (Well, maybe he did, but he seemed to think that Jesus was going to be back really soon, so remaining unmarried wouldnt have been all that unrealistic.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 I see my thread was closed Sooo...ummm what if, and I do mean IF, the concept of ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is true? What if every X-Christian is still going to be saved. I know from reading that some here believe in some god, others do not. Some are agnostic etc. But at one point most everyone here was a Christian. Has anyone ever entertained the idea of once saved, always saved? (I am sure they have) I get that the biggest barrier to this conversation is going to be that most here do not believe in hell or heaven. But let us discuss nonetheless. Comments? P.S. I will try and take it down a few notches. What am I supposedly saved from? Original sin as recorded in the Old Testament? I don't believe in sin so why would I need to be saved from it? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 I see my thread was closed Sooo...ummm what if, and I do mean IF, the concept of ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is true? I have never met a serious Christian who claimed that the doctrine of eternal security (i.e. "once saved always saved") in any way implies that apostates like us ex-Christians will be saved from hell. 2 Timothy 4:10, Hebrews 6:5-6, and Revelation 2:10 are all passages that come to my mind which suggest that the Bible doesn't say you can profess faith in Jesus, recant that faith, and still be saved. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe I'm going to hell. But this is because I believe Jesus is a fraud. So to answer your question: the prospect of eternal security being a true doctrine is of no comfort to me. Christians who believe in eternal security (which includes virtually all evangelicals) would gladly still condemn me to eternal conscious torment in hell. And I noticed that a lot of people here have an issue with God because of His morality Like people are upset because of what was recorded in the OT? I feel like if I can figure out a way to explain those things that most do not agree with (rape, murder etc.) then maybe, just maybe there might be peace hmmmm....just thinking/posting out loud To be clear, I have no problem with the Old Testament. There are plenty of Jews who take this scripture seriously, and not one of them condemns me to eternal hell. Nor do I have any problem with God. My only issue is with Jesus. He's the one who introduced the concept of hell. Random question: why should I take someone seriously who claims to be a Christian and calls Jesus her sexy heavenly husband? I'm eager to discuss and debate with Christians. But I have no interest in trolls. If you'd be so kind, please clarify your beliefs and confirm that you're an actual Christian. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 duplicate post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 OK, I just noticed the other thread. As I've said before I'm not on this forum to joke around, whether it be jokes about religion by ex-Christians or absurdity by people claiming to be Christians. I'll likely not participate in this thread any further. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 One doesn't have to point to the OT or quesions of gawd's suppoed "morality" to say that christian doctrine is bullcrap. Look around in this world today. This is decidedly not the work of a deity that's omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent and has created the entire universe. If the christian gawds exist they are insane at best, evil at worst. Oh... unless of course someone admits that at least some things in the buybull are exactly that - bull. But then, considering that the book is the only thing morontheists have, why keep bothering about their gawds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Margee already covered this in another thread but it answers the OP questions. If once saved always saved then all ex-Christians are saved but still every single minute several children somewhere in the world die and will move on to burn in hell forever because they were born in the wrong culture. It is unjust to give infinite reward for a simple pledge and to give infinite punishment for simply not giving the pledge. Sounds suspicious. Sounds like emotional manipulation to take the pledge. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miekko Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Most who believe in "once saved, always saved" seem to believe it works the other way around - if you stop believing, this means you never really believed at all. They basically read it as it's counterpositive "not saved, never saved". The "once saved, never saved" crowd, although rather large within Christianity, also ignore fairly poignant Biblical material such as the first few verses of Hebrews 6, and a bunch of other places in the NT that make it clear a believer can fall away from the faith. (Of course, they also rely on the mistaken notion that the Bible is relevant or true or that salvation is even possible.) This mainly functions as a rhetorical tool for them, though - if an ex-believer has something worthwhile to say that may be critical of Christianity, it's better to attack the claim of having been Christian than to acknowledge or deal with anything they have to say that is of substance. It's a way of dismissing the content of an utterance in favor of scoring brownie-points on doctrinal purity in the eyes of other believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Problem is, there appears to be no god, so there is nothing to be saved from. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 I see my thread was closed Sooo...ummm what if, and I do mean IF, the concept of ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is true? What if every X-Christian is still going to be saved. I know from reading that some here believe in some god, others do not. Some are agnostic etc. But at one point most everyone here was a Christian. Has anyone ever entertained the idea of once saved, always saved? (I am sure they have) I get that the biggest barrier to this conversation is going to be that most here do not believe in hell or heaven. But let us discuss nonetheless. Comments? P.S. I will try and take it down a few notches. Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: I hereby state publicly that the holy spirit is a fucktard who is incredibly lousy at blow jobs. Oh, and the holy spirit is also a stupid bronze age myth that doesn't exist. That should take care of your "once saved, always saved" hypothesis! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Got nothing to be saved from hun. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExXex Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 As a Christian I genuinely believed that if someone had accepted God at some point in their life then that was for all eternity. But now, I'd be totally bummed if I ended up in heaven, from the descriptions it's filled with gaudy gems, repetitive singing, no sun or night with stars (no trees mentioned as far as I can recall) and constantly apparently brainlessly fawning over THAT God. Some people talk about being afraid of hell, I think I'm more afraid of the heaven the bible describes :/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted September 27, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted September 27, 2013 And I noticed that a lot of people here have an issue with God because of His morality There it is again. The fundamental misunderstanding Christians have. You act as if we believe in your god, but don't agree with his policies and actions. Until you understand, really understand, there can be no fruitful discussion. We don't think for an instant that your god actually exists. What you see regarding the problems with the morality of the Bible's "God" character is a disgust that people would invent such a barbaric being in the first place, and that subsequent generations would be okay with it. Those who treat the god delusion as if it were real have caused untold misery in his name despite the imaginary status of the mythological deity. See, it's not that any god really caused a flood that cruelly drowned every man, woman, child and bunny rabbit, but that some people are eager to worship such a concept and call it "good." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 And I noticed that a lot of people here have an issue with God because of His morality Like people are upset because of what was recorded in the OT? I feel like if I can figure out a way to explain those things that most do not agree with (rape, murder etc.) then maybe, just maybe there might be peace hmmmm....just thinking/posting out loud Even if you could rationalize away the problems of OT morality, salvation is defined as one thing in the OT and something quite different in the NT. The two systems can't be reconciled without resorting to special pleading, which in effect is just a form of speculation based on whim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 ..Has anyone ever entertained the idea of once saved, always saved? (I am sure they have).. I never liked the once saved always saved doctrine. I thought it was arrogant to think that you knew better than he did. And that decided who was saved or not was not our call to make. You are right on one thing, we are upset about what is written about in the old testament, as anyone would be who actually has read it without Jesus glasses on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadTOm Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 What if every X-Christian is still going to be saved. There is no such thing as "saved". There is no god. There is no such thing as sin. I was never actually "saved" when I was a christian because again, there is no such thing. It was a waste of my time then and even more so now, since I finally know better. Your question is wrong on it's face, and entirely irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 God= √-1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 Maybe every Christian is going to Hell and the ex-Christians are saved by not being Christians anymore? What if the god of the Bible does exist, but is actually the Demon King, who crawled up out of Hell, and pretended to be a god for thousands of years? Maybe the real god is going to send everyone who worships Yahweh to Hell. That would mean that all of the Christians, the Muslims, and the Jews that still practice Judaism are doomed to an eternity of being raped by the Demon King! You better tell Yahweh and the Holy Spirit "FUCK YOU! " Jordan, before it's too late! You could end up in Hell, being raped by the Demon King, and fed upon by demon babies, for all of eternity! Wouldn't it be better to believe that the Bible god is a false god and end up in eternal paradise than to believe in and praise the Bible god, only to find out he was the Demon King after all? I call this, Crazyguy123's wager. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCBooster Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 God= √-1 Oh, snap. I think I just qualified myself as a mega-dork for laughing out loud at that... Edit: seriously, though, this is a good point, and the one I was going to make. The whole "God" and "saved" thing is a fiction, and literally means nothing more than that to me, so it doesn't matter to me in the least. Besides, not everybody here is an ex-Christian. I never was Christian in the first place. So, the first, and always the most important question - for fiction or non-fiction - is: "Why do I care?" Speculating about who's "saved" and who's not is about as meaningful to me as some amateurish fan-fiction based on some show I don't even watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gall Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 I see my thread was closed Sooo...ummm what if, and I do mean IF, the concept of ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is true? What if every X-Christian is still going to be saved. I know from reading that some here believe in some god, others do not. Some are agnostic etc. But at one point most everyone here was a Christian. Has anyone ever entertained the idea of once saved, always saved? (I am sure they have) I get that the biggest barrier to this conversation is going to be that most here do not believe in hell or heaven. But let us discuss nonetheless. Comments? P.S. I will try and take it down a few notches. Just because you want to start topics like this does not give it legitimacy. You come across as nothing more than your average forum troll in most of your threads so I am not sure why you would just expect civil conversation. If you want that go to a pro christian board. I personally don't want to discuss this but I do want to question why you think just because you get an idea it is valid and present it here like we should all take pause and listen to you as though you have hit on some great epiphany... God isn't there and never was. You can "save" yourself through him all day and you are still right in the exact same square you started in. No god = topics like this pointless. Yes this is just my opinion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 I see my thread was closed Sooo...ummm what if, and I do mean IF, the concept of ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is true? What if every X-Christian is still going to be saved. I know from reading that some here believe in some god, others do not. Some are agnostic etc. But at one point most everyone here was a Christian. Has anyone ever entertained the idea of once saved, always saved? (I am sure they have) I get that the biggest barrier to this conversation is going to be that most here do not believe in hell or heaven. But let us discuss nonetheless. Comments? P.S. I will try and take it down a few notches. I'd suggest that before any of us even bother to respond with comments, Jordan should first establish exactly what she thinks salvation is... citing chapter and verse of scripture, explaining every relevant point and omitting nothing. Then, if she can accomplish that to our satisfaction, we can all move on to the issue of once saved, always saved. If she can't do so... then we just don't go there. Unless we fully understand what she means by the word 'salvation' first, there's little point in debating why it can or can't be lost. Also, asking her for her definition of salvation will tell us if she is a troll or not. A troll will usually have a superficial understanding of Christian doctrine and can appear as a "True Believer" at first glance. However, closer and more in-depth scrutiny will usually reveal cracks in the facade. So how about it, Jordan? Please establish the proper context for your question by properly defining salvation for us. Thanks, BAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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