Vomitously Sick Of Christians

[sandiego4me]

I have always enjoyed Gandhi's quote about Christians, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

I do not like most Christians, don't like church, hate religious ritual, but am what I call a doubting Christian.  I suck at my faith and have plenty of crappy faults.  I can't stand when people talk in Christian buzz phrases.  I would much prefer to watch football on Sundays than go to church.  I'll never fit the mode of what mainstream Christianity requires of one to "be a Christian" (nor would I want to).  I wrote a book (free download at Smashwords.com) called "iDoubt: When Faith Falters."    I decided to write a book that shoots from the hip and blasts Christian stereotypes.  Church will always suck, but Christ doesn't.  Gandhi had it right.     

[florduh]

Welcome!

 

Forget how others practice Christianity; it irrelevant. Do the Bible and the religion(s) it spawned stand up to honest scrutiny? That is the question.

[sandiego4me]

One day I was thinking, "Man, I hate church.  I don't like being around Christians."  Then I wondered, "Will this get me in trouble with God?"'  Not long after that, I had a thought, "Jesus despised everything religious."  I mean EVERYTHING.    I think Jesus' view on church is more in line with what people say on this website, than what people say at church. 

[florduh]

 I think Jesus' view on church is more in line with what people say on this website, than what people say at church. 

Maybe, except for the part where we don't believe in him in the first place.

[slave2six]

Church will always suck, but Christ doesn't.  Gandhi had it right.

 

I don't think that's entirely true:

 

 

"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine." - Comparing people to dogs and swine.

 

"broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it." - Mind your manners or hell awaits.

 

"I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’" - More hell.

 

"Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done..."Woe to you..." - More hell.

 

"...it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." - Petty much?

 

Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had [a]mixed with their sacrifices. And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse [c]culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” - Fear tactics (and lies, I might add).

 

Jesus wasn't all peaches and cream. He was teaching the same fear crap that his followers do.

[Ravenstar]

There are many good teachers that have graced the world... Jesus said some good things, so did Gandhi, Zeno, Confucius, Marcus Aurelius, Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Epicurus, Thomas Jefferson, Jean Paul Sartre, Avicenna of Persia, Rumi, Descartes, Guatama Buddha, John Locke, Kant, Sun Tzu, Hypatia of Alexandria, Spinoza, Simone De Beauvoir, Kierkegaard, Bertrand Russell, Lao Tse Tung, Jean Jacques Rousseau, Marshall Mcluhan, St. Frances of Assisi, Mark Twain, Albert Camus, Nietzsche, etc, etc, etc... and all are worth reading.

 

It's the whole divinity thing I have a problem with.

[SageHealer]

You might check out translations of Jesus' words in Aramaic, the language he actually spoke.  A very different take than the translation we're used to.  Neil Douglas-Klotz has some excellent books.  Check out the gnostic gospels too!

[sandiego4me]

Christ said, "If anybody comes to me, I will not cast them out."  He didn't put an conditions on that invitation.  I don't like the idea of hell.  It scares the $#%@ out of me.   In my book, I have a chapter called "What the Hell?" that addresses this issue.  It's not full of fluff nor is it sugar coated.  It's a true, hard look at the one thing that scares us all.   We all just want to be okay.  

[WaitingInfinity]

There are many good teachers that have graced the world... Jesus said some good things, so did Gandhi, Zeno, Confucius, Marcus Aurelius, Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Epicurus, Thomas Jefferson, Jean Paul Sartre, Avicenna of Persia, Rumi, Descartes, Guatama Buddha, John Locke, Kant, Sun Tzu, Hypatia of Alexandria, Spinoza, Simone De Beauvoir, Kierkegaard, Bertrand Russell, Lao Tse Tung, Jean Jacques Rousseau, Marshall Mcluhan, St. Frances of Assisi, Mark Twain, Albert Camus, Nietzsche, etc, etc, etc... and all are worth reading.

 

It's the whole divinity thing I have a problem with.

 

I love this! But Christians get all up in a huff when you say that Jesus was just a good teacher. It's not like it isn't a compliment. It just isn't the compliment they would like.

[pratt]

well,,,, looks like you dislike christians, church n religion,,,,

 

because you are right n christ-like??????

[RipVanWinkle]

I like to pull the good stuff out of the sayings of Jesus. They are beautiful. One of my favorite is the story of the prodigal son which is so very insightful. But there are other things, such as those

referred to by slave2six above, which seem to show a different Jesus. I ignore them. We really don't know what Jesus said, but the good stuff attributed to him is inspirational, like great poetry. The "good

stuff" is that which you believe to be good. You should apply those sayings to the extent they are useful to you. But don't expect the miraculous from Jesus or anybody else. That's self deluding. bill

[pawn]

Some of Jesus' sayings in the Gospels are off-the-chain awesome. It's no wonder I fell for this shit. The Jesus character says some legendary outrageously wise shit in some places. I always thought and still do that he is the wisest most profound spiritual teacher of all time.

 

On the other have, he also said some fucked up crazy mean shit, and I have come to realize that the Gospels are fiction, great fiction, and Jesus is the greatest fictional character in history. Now that is great and all, but he's not real, he's not god, he never responded to me for years of adoring and worshipping him, the same way that Aries never responded to me, because as awesome as the character of Jesus and Aries are...they are both still fictional characters...

[Burt_Lemur]

Jesus said so many great things because when a bunch of writers have a lot of time to work, they'll probably come up with some great dialogue for the character they are bringing to life.

 

The character of Jesus also spread a lot of despicable threat theology that has been used by people to victimize others.

[sandiego4me]

 

There are many good teachers that have graced the world... Jesus said some good things, so did Gandhi, Zeno, Confucius, Marcus Aurelius, Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Epicurus, Thomas Jefferson, Jean Paul Sartre, Avicenna of Persia, Rumi, Descartes, Guatama Buddha, John Locke, Kant, Sun Tzu, Hypatia of Alexandria, Spinoza, Simone De Beauvoir, Kierkegaard, Bertrand Russell, Lao Tse Tung, Jean Jacques Rousseau, Marshall Mcluhan, St. Frances of Assisi, Mark Twain, Albert Camus, Nietzsche, etc, etc, etc... and all are worth reading.

 

It's the whole divinity thing I have a problem with.

 

I love this! But Christians get all up in a huff when you say that Jesus was just a good teacher. It's not like it isn't a compliment. It just isn't the compliment they would like.

 

  

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”  C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity. 

[pratt]

or just a figment of imagination in your mind

[WarriorPoet]

Christ said, "If anybody comes to me, I will not cast them out."  He didn't put an conditions on that invitation.  I don't like the idea of hell.  It scares the $#%@ out of me.   In my book, I have a chapter called "What the Hell?" that addresses this issue.  It's not full of fluff nor is it sugar coated.  It's a true, hard look at the one thing that scares us all.   We all just want to be okay.

 

So if Hitler or Stalin came to him, they would not be cast out? I really take issue with the idea that anybody can be forgiven. There is a point where somebody is nothing more than pure, distilled evil. Granted, the prescribed punishment that the church teaches is excessive for even the worst members of the human race. This brings me to the second point, your "one thing that scares us all" does not scare me or many other members if this forum at all. We have thoroughly investigated xian theology and on all claims, including hell, it is found severely wanting.

[sdelsolray]

 

 

There are many good teachers that have graced the world... Jesus said some good things, so did Gandhi, Zeno, Confucius, Marcus Aurelius, Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Epicurus, Thomas Jefferson, Jean Paul Sartre, Avicenna of Persia, Rumi, Descartes, Guatama Buddha, John Locke, Kant, Sun Tzu, Hypatia of Alexandria, Spinoza, Simone De Beauvoir, Kierkegaard, Bertrand Russell, Lao Tse Tung, Jean Jacques Rousseau, Marshall Mcluhan, St. Frances of Assisi, Mark Twain, Albert Camus, Nietzsche, etc, etc, etc... and all are worth reading.

 

It's the whole divinity thing I have a problem with.

 

I love this! But Christians get all up in a huff when you say that Jesus was just a good teacher. It's not like it isn't a compliment. It just isn't the compliment they would like.

 

  

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”  C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity. 

 

Ah yes, the almost famous CS Lewis false trichotomy.  Think hard.  What other choices are there?

[midniterider]

 

 

There are many good teachers that have graced the world... Jesus said some good things, so did Gandhi, Zeno, Confucius, Marcus Aurelius, Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Epicurus, Thomas Jefferson, Jean Paul Sartre, Avicenna of Persia, Rumi, Descartes, Guatama Buddha, John Locke, Kant, Sun Tzu, Hypatia of Alexandria, Spinoza, Simone De Beauvoir, Kierkegaard, Bertrand Russell, Lao Tse Tung, Jean Jacques Rousseau, Marshall Mcluhan, St. Frances of Assisi, Mark Twain, Albert Camus, Nietzsche, etc, etc, etc... and all are worth reading.

 

It's the whole divinity thing I have a problem with.

 

I love this! But Christians get all up in a huff when you say that Jesus was just a good teacher. It's not like it isn't a compliment. It just isn't the compliment they would like.

 

  

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”  C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity. 

 

 

Only two choices is a false dilemma. There are many many choices.

[RaLeah]

I get what you're saying about Jesus. For a while, I had to pretty much toss out the OT and focus on Christ, right? Because the OT is full of war, ripping babies out of your enemy's belly, taking female sex slaves, and pretty much women are property.... and oh, if a woman gets raped, that man should pay off her father and be forced to marry her... um, what about HER? What if SHE doesn't want to marry a violent rapist?? Too bad. 

 

So... I focused on the NT. And Jesus. And he's great because of course he is. He's a collection of mythology and parables designed to make him look great. I mean, the Bible is pretty great propaganda designed to make people like him. You know... a guy pushing against the evil powers above him, calling people out on being hypocrites, caring for humble people... it sounds so great, right? But he might have never existed at all. He might be a collection of mythology that came before. (Once you study earlier myths and see how much they have in common, it's hard to see the originality of Jesus.... even the virgin birth, feeding the 5000, and sacrificial death... it's all been done before. Long before.)

 

But sure, the Christ as written in the Bible looks pretty good. Especially according to the earlier gospels. John is written much later. But all of it is written 40 years after it happened, and very much in the tradition of storytelling at that time. Think of it as comic book heroes in their day: Set in a real place and time, miracles, special truth and wisdom... it all makes sense. 

 

But... in the Bible, Jesus still speaks of hell. He still promises heaven to the believers and hell to unbelievers. 

 

That makes sense before the internet age. Before we all have more global information. Before we realize a lot of people don't grow up in the same faith as us, the same access to it. So many people live and die without ever EVER hearing about the Bible, because they grow up in 3rd world countries without that kind of access... and so they're supposed to go to hell? Really? Just because they never heard of any of this? And that's fair? 

 

Really. I mean... really? 

 

Deep down, as frightened of the idea of hell as you are, you must know in your heart that the very idea of hell is absurd. Because it is. 

 

Still, you were taught it was true since you were young, and brainwashing is a very powerful thing. You, a thinking smart adult, still can't quite shake it off entirely, even though you KNOW logically -- even emotionally -- it doesn't make any sense at all. It doesn't matter. Fear is our most primal motivator. 

 

And yet.... you DO know deep down it doesn't make any sense for a loving God to do that. You KNOW it. You even FEEL it. So even DEEPER down you wonder if you're just supposed to try to pretend and make yourself play along that God is loving even though it would be super monstrous for a God to condemn the majority of humanity to that fate. But deeper down than that... you sense it's all a lie. 

 

Go ahead. Dig all the way down. Have the courage to do that. Have the courage to think this life is what life is. And after life... is just death. You probably think that's too scary and terrible to comprehend, but it isn't. It's not scary at all. You can get used to that idea much more easily than you think you can. In fact, it's a relief. 

 

I've said before, I'm SO willing to give up the idea of an eternity of bliss in heaven, knowing for sure that no one will suffer an eternity of suffering in hell. 

 

Aren't you? Aren't you that compassionate? Aren't you willing to think about that and see if that makes more logical sense? 

 

If you are... if even one other human being is... doesn't it make that human more compassionate than God? And shouldn't that be impossible? 

 

Play with that thought. Let your brain mull on it and think it over. Don't force an answer to it, just let it marinate for a bit. 

 

You seem like a thoughtful person who is looking for answers. If you want the truth more than you want comfort, you will find the truth. 

 

Facts and evidence are out there, and they're easily accessible. Once you have the courage to look for answers, for the TRUTH, you will find what you're looking for. First you have to find the courage to be open to accepting what you'll find. 

 

And doesn't the Bible promise that if you seek you'll find? I encourage you to go for it. Take up the quest. It's well worth it. 

[Pantophobia]

 It's a true, hard look at the one thing that scares us all.   We all just want to be okay.  

 

 

I can't begin to parrot everything that RaLeah already said better than I could, so I'll just pull out one of your quotes that is extremely important. Hell scares us because we don't want Someone we love to cast us aside, much less punish us for misdeeds that we perhaps didn't mean or couldn't help. 

 

Now.

 

What kind of loving, forgiving, wonderful God would DO that? That is some sick, sick stuff there. And that is the root of our fears. Despite hearing that he loves us and we are created in his image, and he gave us free will, we are still living in perpetual terror that we might make a little slip up, and... BAM! TO HELL! What kind of loving Father would treat His children that way? We all just want to be okay, but in the Christian paradigm, we never, ever can be. And it sucks. 

[Vigile]

Christ said, "If anybody comes to me, I will not cast them out."  He didn't put an conditions on that invitation.  I don't like the idea of hell.  It scares the $#%@ out of me.   In my book, I have a chapter called "What the Hell?" that addresses this issue.  It's not full of fluff nor is it sugar coated.  It's a true, hard look at the one thing that scares us all.   We all just want to be okay.  

 

Jesus, if you believe he is god, made the rules, which means he created a system you were born into which automatically requires you to come to him or suffer the consequences.  That sounds more like a mafia don's 'offer you can't refuse' than just a nice guy holding out his hand to rescue you because in his other hand there is a gun. 

 

I personally think the whole story is bullshit, but if you accept the basic premise of it, it's quite wicked. 

 

[pawn]

 

 

 

 

There are many good teachers that have graced the world... Jesus said some good things, so did Gandhi, Zeno, Confucius, Marcus Aurelius, Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Epicurus, Thomas Jefferson, Jean Paul Sartre, Avicenna of Persia, Rumi, Descartes, Guatama Buddha, John Locke, Kant, Sun Tzu, Hypatia of Alexandria, Spinoza, Simone De Beauvoir, Kierkegaard, Bertrand Russell, Lao Tse Tung, Jean Jacques Rousseau, Marshall Mcluhan, St. Frances of Assisi, Mark Twain, Albert Camus, Nietzsche, etc, etc, etc... and all are worth reading.

 

It's the whole divinity thing I have a problem with.

I love this! But Christians get all up in a huff when you say that Jesus was just a good teacher. It's not like it isn't a compliment. It just isn't the compliment they would like.

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity.

It never occurred to CS Lewis that the character in the gospels is FICTIONAL! I find it amusing, since he was an author himself that came up with elaborate stories and characters... Just like the gospel writers did!

[Vigile]

 

 

There are many good teachers that have graced the world... Jesus said some good things, so did Gandhi, Zeno, Confucius, Marcus Aurelius, Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Epicurus, Thomas Jefferson, Jean Paul Sartre, Avicenna of Persia, Rumi, Descartes, Guatama Buddha, John Locke, Kant, Sun Tzu, Hypatia of Alexandria, Spinoza, Simone De Beauvoir, Kierkegaard, Bertrand Russell, Lao Tse Tung, Jean Jacques Rousseau, Marshall Mcluhan, St. Frances of Assisi, Mark Twain, Albert Camus, Nietzsche, etc, etc, etc... and all are worth reading.

 

It's the whole divinity thing I have a problem with.

 

I love this! But Christians get all up in a huff when you say that Jesus was just a good teacher. It's not like it isn't a compliment. It just isn't the compliment they would like.

 

  

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”  C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity. 

 

 

4th option Lewis misses is he could just be made up. 

 

[BendyLine]

Or a combination of the above (though I would rule out lord, based on the evidence I've seen). There may have been a historical Jesus that the gospels were based on, but I imagine most of the stuff about him in the gospels was made up.

[RenaissanceWoman]

... So... I focused on the NT. And Jesus. And he's great because of course he is. He's a collection of mythology and parables designed to make him look great. I mean, the Bible is pretty great propaganda designed to make people like him. ..

 

RaLeah, this whole response was so great. Thank you!

 

I pulled this one quote because I went through a similar process of ignoring the OT (since Jesus came to set people straight from all the misinterpretations of a vengeful god, etc.). But then I had to think twice about everything Paul wrote, too, since some of it seemed contradictory to the other gospels, his false humility, his attitude toward women (which Jesus did not seem to share), and a return to legalism (which Jesus also tried to undo), not to mention his various accounts on the road to Damascus that don't match up. So I researched him, and it turns out there are plenty of others who question his validity, and his motives. Was he just creating a new cult for control purposes? Was he the anti-christ? All kinds of interesting ideas.

 

So then I decided to ignore all of Paul, which is a huge chunk of the NT. I was leaning toward the Jefferson bible.

 

But then I just kept going further, and realized... it's all just fiction. Never mind.