Christians: Define A Personal Relationship With Jesus

[bornagainathiest]

Thank you for your response Ironhorse.

 

Plato...ordinary.

Jesus...extraordinary.

 

Plato requires no faith for me to accept his existence.

Jesus requires faith for me accept his existence.

 

As Falemon and Sdelsolray have already pointed out, you use religious faith, not historical or archaeological evidence, to accept the existence of the Jesus described in the Bible.  You don't exercise that same religious faith to accept the existence of Plato.  So you are simultaneously operating two different standards - two different and incompatible standards, to accept the existence of Jesus, the Son of God.

 

You are now on record as saying that you cannot supply physical evidence.

This means that I have no common ground with you at all.  I cannot, in all honesty and integrity, accept Jesus by faith and you cannot supply physical evidence for his existence.  Ficino and others have recently supplied more than enough evidence to show that any extra-Biblical evidence for Jesus is, at best, debatable. 

 

Re: the martyrdom of early Christians.

People are sacrificing themselves for their religious beliefs today, Ironhorse.  People have been doing so centuries, if not millennia.  If their acts of martyrdom were a true indicator of the truth of their beliefs, then on a head-count the Islamic faith must be the true one.  Sorry, but your argument doesn't hold water.  Martyrdom isn't the sign that Jesus said would be how true believers would be known. 

 

I don't see that sign.

With no physical evidence, debatable extra-Biblical textual evidence, contradictory historical and archaeological evidence, contradictory scientific evidence about the origin of the universe and no clear evidence of the sign Jesus spoke of... I should do as you do Ironhorse?  I should still accept what the Bible says about Jesus?  And I should do so... by faith?

 

Those were three rhetorical questions, btw.

You need not answer them if you don't want to.  But if you do so, I will of course reply accordingly.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

[♦ ficino ♦]

Adding to what I said at the end of #449:  a place to start with Mark is his geography.  Why are there errors about the geography of Palestine if Mark's gospel is an eyewitness account?  Even Matthew corrects some of them, although he relies on Mark as a source.  For example, compare the skewed order of towns visited in Mark 11:1:  from Jericho to Bethphage to Bethany on the way to Jerusalem.  But Bethphage is closer to Jerusalem than is Bethany.  Matthew corrects this error by dropping Bethany (21:1).  This move creates a contradiction over which village is identified by being near the Mt. of Olives:  Bethany in Mark vs. Bethphage in Matthew.

[Pantophobia]

But, after circling around flapping arms, it's back to the same thing: "Well, I just BELIEVE!" But that doesn't make it a personal relationship. It makes it the OPPOSITE of a personal relationship.

 

It is exactly the same thing as if I were carrying on about that cute kid with the fabulous hair in One Direction. The more I listen to their music and watch their videos and movie, the closer I feel to him. I don't care about all these new fans, I've been a fan ever since he was first on Pop Idol, even before he was put in One Direction! YEARS! So many times, I feel like their music is speaking directly to me! And the way his eyes crinkle up when he smiles into the camera is like he's smiling right into my soul! For years, I've been writing letters, Tweeting, posting on his FB feeds, sending gifts, holding signs at concerts. He even smiled at me at one of the shows, and re-tweeted a picture I sent him of a potato chip that looked just like him! And I found out that one of my great-great-great grandparents had the last name "Styles" so that is a sign that we are connected deeply!

 

THAT MEANS I HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM! I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY! HARRY LOVES ME AND I LOVE HIM AND YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND! I JUST KNOW IT IN MY HEART.

 

In fact, this makes me realize I've had more meaningful relationships with pop stars than I ever had with Jesus. 

[FriendlyChristian]

I think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being like any other relationship.  I value some certain relationships more than others, of course, because I can see how much the person in the relationship really exhibits legitimate concern for me.

[midniterider]

I think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being like any other relationship.  I value some certain relationships more than others, of course, because I can see how much the person in the relationship really exhibits legitimate concern for me.

 

Last time I asked Jesus to go bowling with me, he never showed up.

Last time I asked Jesus to help me fix a pipe, he never showed up.

Jesus never even showed up at my baptism.

He is a lousy friend. He never shows up. He never says anything. I always had to imagine what he might be saying and then pretend he said it. Just like you do. Because, he never shows up.

 

I now think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being with someone who doesn't exist.

[Pantophobia]

I think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being like any other relationship.  I value some certain relationships more than others, of course, because I can see how much the person in the relationship really exhibits legitimate concern for me.

 

How does he exhibit this "legitimate concern" for you? What, exactly can you "see" as "how much"? Without using a bible verse or Christian rhetoric, what does your friend/love/partner/protecter/whoever Jesus DO? 

 

When I am in the pits of despair, or questioning something, or anxious, I sometimes call on loved ones: my husband, my close friends, a group like this, my work colleagues. "Hey," I'll say, "it's one of those out-of-sorts days." Or "I'm really worried about this project, to the point of being overwhelmed and afraid of it." Or "I'm very angry at the state of the world right now." And every single time, I get an immediate response: "Wow, do I know that feeling!" "What can I do to help? Let's talk this through." "Have you read ___? I found it helpful." Sometimes, if I cry, they hug me tight, and tell me it's okay to have these feelings. Other times, they make me laugh, or point out where my troubled thinking has led me astray. Always, always, they emphasize my worth as a person, my worth to them, and my worth with what I'm doing with my life. And when I'm happy, I share things with them. I tell them I love them, and how much I value them. We laugh together, we spend time together, we do things together. Sometimes, they're the ones despairing, and I can offer them the same love, support, listening ear, hugs, and assurances of their worth. 

 

Those are all the things I was supposed to experience in a "relationship" with Jesus, with my "Father God." When I despaired, I called to him. I was four years old, alone and afraid and rejected, calling out to God to please take care of me. I was a scared and molested seven year old, telling God I just wanted to die because I felt so worthless. I was an abandoned eight year old who just needed to know God thought I was special. I begged, I pleaded, I was broken and alone.

 

Nothing. No response. 

 

The adults around me, at church, Sunday School and in my family, kept assuring me that God WAS there, and I just wasn't "open" to his voice and his love. I spent hours in prayer. I sang. I read and struggled to understand. Once, I sneaked away from a church potluck to go up to the empty altar and pray and pray, sure that pious solitude in this dark holy place would be what made the big change, would make me finally feel something. 

 

Nothing. No response.

 

(Actually, I got in trouble for going in there.)

 

I turned my back on "the world" and devoted myself, REALLY, this time, devoted myself. I switched to a Christian school. I tried to always embody Christ's love. I befriended the sad, the sick, the rejected, the lonely and needy. I gave of myself, just as I'd been taught. Now, finally, surely I would feel those feelings of love from God, hear his voice in my heart!

 

Nothing. No response. 

 

On into my twenties, I decided that organized religion was the problem. Not God. Not Jesus. I will come to them honestly, purely, and without the barriers of other men's interpretations. I would humble myself in new ways. I would dance in the ocean at night under the stars, I would drive out to a forrest and pray, I would sit under the sun and concentrate on the energy of God, of his love, of the redemption of his son Jesus who personified that great gift of love to all humanity, and surely, NOW, this time, I would finally feel that great wash of love and reassurance that I wasn't a piece of shit, I wasn't a "poor, miserable sinner," I was one of God's creations, like these flowers, like this new grass, like the sky arching overhead!

 

Nothing. No response. 

 

Instead, there was constant turmoil, fear, and anxiety, and the adults around me would insist that it was just God "testing" me, that it showed what a strong and worthy person I actually WAS, if he thought me capable of having this giant boulder chucked along with all the others onto my shoulders! I should thank him for that! He was actually showing me how much he loved me with all these tests! My childhood abuse, including years of sexual molestation? Why, that was what made me the woman I am today, so praise God! The horrors and abandonment from adults around me during those years? That made me stronger, that made me appreciate love more, didn't it? Yes it did! I needed to just open my heart more to the angels around me, the spirits protecting me, God's love in everything! So I tried. Again.

 

Nothing. No response. 

 

Sometimes, though, others pointed out the responses I clearly couldn't see. The "tests" that were actually not punishments, but were proof of God's love. The blessings that came only from him, my friends at the time, my job, my health. Was I taking all of that for granted?

 

So I kept at it. I lay under God's great sky, concentrating, praying, begging, pleading, desperate. I wore stones around my neck to remind me of God's love and Christ's sacrifice. I quashed doubts and questions, I wouldn't even let myself THINK things because it was a roadblock to the "relationship" that everyone assured me I was having with God! And sometimes, in the middle of the night, as I knelt in long prayer and meditation, I would tell myself that the gentle breeze that just blew, or the night bird that began to sing was "proof" of God's presence, that that was his response. This beautiful rock found on a long walk must be a sign from God, right? My safe arrival at a destination, my new relationships with better people, all of these things were God's gifts of love to me... weren't they? Praise him! Thank him! But then, why was he still "testing" me? Wasn't I appreciative enough? I set up prayer spots and more token reminders, I got increasingly ritualistic about my thanking God for blessings. But bad things kept happening. Which was the "relationship" part with God, the responses to my love and open heart, the good things, or the bad? I begged for clarification, I begged to understand.

 

Nothing. No response. 

 

A "relationship" doesn't require outside interpretation. I don't need anyone else to explain to me that my husband only ignores me or hits me because he loves me. I don't need to go someplace on Sundays in order to learn that my friends really ARE there even though they never answer my calls or messages, never respond in any way, whether I'm happy or sad, even if I beg. The sun is shining, and that is enough to show that my friends are there for me, right? RIGHT?! A "relationship" isn't explained by a book, or verses, or song lyrics, or a sermon. A "relationship" isn't framed by thrice-removed actions that need to be analyzed and translated. 

 

A relationship is direct, personal, and immediate. And until God/Jesus actually comes and sits down next to you, puts physical arms around you, and hugs you tight, until God/Jesus is there so you can look into his eyes and squeeze his hands and speak directly to him and hear his answer back, you do NOT have a "relationship" with anyone. 

 

You have a belief. That is different. 

[FriendlyChristian]

 

I think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being like any other relationship.  I value some certain relationships more than others, of course, because I can see how much the person in the relationship really exhibits legitimate concern for me.

 

Last time I asked Jesus to go bowling with me, he never showed up.

Last time I asked Jesus to help me fix a pipe, he never showed up.

Jesus never even showed up at my baptism.

He is a lousy friend. He never shows up. He never says anything. I always had to imagine what he might be saying and then pretend he said it. Just like you do. Because, he never shows up.

 

I now think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being with someone who doesn't exist.

 

 

Those are small things compared to what he did for me.  Of course I also have a few friends who have never done any of those things for me also, but they have exhibited their love for me in other (perhaps far more substantial) ways.

[Adam5]

 

..  A relationship is direct, personal, and immediate. And until God/Jesus actually comes and sits down next to you, puts physical arms around you, and hugs you tight, until God/Jesus is there so you can look into his eyes and squeeze his hands and speak directly to him and hear his answer back, you do NOT have a "relationship" with anyone. 

 

You have a belief. That is different. 

 

 

Good post. No one can have a proper relationship with a do nothing, say nothing imaginary entity.

[Roz]

If jesus were a car:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qahB7mYhLxs

 

Every salesman (IE: christian of every denomination) has a close personal relationship with that car

The Baptists claim it's a blue honda prius (just go along with it)

The Methodists claim it's a corvette stingray (I like the Methodists already)

The Southern Baptists claim it's a red honda prius (well duh)

 

Every salesman will claim their relationship with that car drove them to be inspired, and they shared loving intimate moments with that car.

Yet they'll disagree with the mechanics, the color, the make, the model of that car.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

I think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being like any other relationship.  I value some certain relationships more than others, of course, because I can see how much the person in the relationship really exhibits legitimate concern for me.

 

Last time I asked Jesus to go bowling with me, he never showed up.

Last time I asked Jesus to help me fix a pipe, he never showed up.

Jesus never even showed up at my baptism.

He is a lousy friend. He never shows up. He never says anything. I always had to imagine what he might be saying and then pretend he said it. Just like you do. Because, he never shows up.

 

I now think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being with someone who doesn't exist.

 

 

Those are small things compared to what he did for me.  Of course I also have a few friends who have never done any of those things for me also, but they have exhibited their love for me in other (perhaps far more substantial) ways.

 

I suppose, by this, you mean the supreme sacrifice he made in going to sleep for three days to save you from the sins he created you with so that he wouldn't have to subject you to damnation in hell which he created.  Yeah, some friend.

 

I'd rather he'd just helped out around the house.

[FriendlyChristian]

 

I think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being like any other relationship.  I value some certain relationships more than others, of course, because I can see how much the person in the relationship really exhibits legitimate concern for me.

 

How does he exhibit this "legitimate concern" for you? What, exactly can you "see" as "how much"? Without using a bible verse or Christian rhetoric, what does your friend/love/partner/protecter/whoever Jesus DO? 

 

When I am in the pits of despair, or questioning something, or anxious, I sometimes call on loved ones: my husband, my close friends, a group like this, my work colleagues. "Hey," I'll say, "it's one of those out-of-sorts days." Or "I'm really worried about this project, to the point of being overwhelmed and afraid of it." Or "I'm very angry at the state of the world right now." And every single time, I get an immediate response: "Wow, do I know that feeling!" "What can I do to help? Let's talk this through." "Have you read ___? I found it helpful." Sometimes, if I cry, they hug me tight, and tell me it's okay to have these feelings. Other times, they make me laugh, or point out where my troubled thinking has led me astray. Always, always, they emphasize my worth as a person, my worth to them, and my worth with what I'm doing with my life. And when I'm happy, I share things with them. I tell them I love them, and how much I value them. We laugh together, we spend time together, we do things together. Sometimes, they're the ones despairing, and I can offer them the same love, support, listening ear, hugs, and assurances of their worth. 

 

Those are all the things I was supposed to experience in a "relationship" with Jesus, with my "Father God." When I despaired, I called to him. I was four years old, alone and afraid and rejected, calling out to God to please take care of me. I was a scared and molested seven year old, telling God I just wanted to die because I felt so worthless. I was an abandoned eight year old who just needed to know God thought I was special. I begged, I pleaded, I was broken and alone.

 

Nothing. No response. 

 

The adults around me, at church, Sunday School and in my family, kept assuring me that God WAS there, and I just wasn't "open" to his voice and his love. I spent hours in prayer. I sang. I read and struggled to understand. Once, I sneaked away from a church potluck to go up to the empty altar and pray and pray, sure that pious solitude in this dark holy place would be what made the big change, would make me finally feel something. 

 

Nothing. No response.

 

(Actually, I got in trouble for going in there.)

 

I turned my back on "the world" and devoted myself, REALLY, this time, devoted myself. I switched to a Christian school. I tried to always embody Christ's love. I befriended the sad, the sick, the rejected, the lonely and needy. I gave of myself, just as I'd been taught. Now, finally, surely I would feel those feelings of love from God, hear his voice in my heart!

 

Nothing. No response. 

 

On into my twenties, I decided that organized religion was the problem. Not God. Not Jesus. I will come to them honestly, purely, and without the barriers of other men's interpretations. I would humble myself in new ways. I would dance in the ocean at night under the stars, I would drive out to a forrest and pray, I would sit under the sun and concentrate on the energy of God, of his love, of the redemption of his son Jesus who personified that great gift of love to all humanity, and surely, NOW, this time, I would finally feel that great wash of love and reassurance that I wasn't a piece of shit, I wasn't a "poor, miserable sinner," I was one of God's creations, like these flowers, like this new grass, like the sky arching overhead!

 

Nothing. No response. 

 

Instead, there was constant turmoil, fear, and anxiety, and the adults around me would insist that it was just God "testing" me, that it showed what a strong and worthy person I actually WAS, if he thought me capable of having this giant boulder chucked along with all the others onto my shoulders! I should thank him for that! He was actually showing me how much he loved me with all these tests! My childhood abuse, including years of sexual molestation? Why, that was what made me the woman I am today, so praise God! The horrors and abandonment from adults around me during those years? That made me stronger, that made me appreciate love more, didn't it? Yes it did! I needed to just open my heart more to the angels around me, the spirits protecting me, God's love in everything! So I tried. Again.

 

Nothing. No response. 

 

Sometimes, though, others pointed out the responses I clearly couldn't see. The "tests" that were actually not punishments, but were proof of God's love. The blessings that came only from him, my friends at the time, my job, my health. Was I taking all of that for granted?

 

So I kept at it. I lay under God's great sky, concentrating, praying, begging, pleading, desperate. I wore stones around my neck to remind me of God's love and Christ's sacrifice. I quashed doubts and questions, I wouldn't even let myself THINK things because it was a roadblock to the "relationship" that everyone assured me I was having with God! And sometimes, in the middle of the night, as I knelt in long prayer and meditation, I would tell myself that the gentle breeze that just blew, or the night bird that began to sing was "proof" of God's presence, that that was his response. This beautiful rock found on a long walk must be a sign from God, right? My safe arrival at a destination, my new relationships with better people, all of these things were God's gifts of love to me... weren't they? Praise him! Thank him! But then, why was he still "testing" me? Wasn't I appreciative enough? I set up prayer spots and more token reminders, I got increasingly ritualistic about my thanking God for blessings. But bad things kept happening. Which was the "relationship" part with God, the responses to my love and open heart, the good things, or the bad? I begged for clarification, I begged to understand.

 

Nothing. No response. 

 

A "relationship" doesn't require outside interpretation. I don't need anyone else to explain to me that my husband only ignores me or hits me because he loves me. I don't need to go someplace on Sundays in order to learn that my friends really ARE there even though they never answer my calls or messages, never respond in any way, whether I'm happy or sad, even if I beg. The sun is shining, and that is enough to show that my friends are there for me, right? RIGHT?! A "relationship" isn't explained by a book, or verses, or song lyrics, or a sermon. A "relationship" isn't framed by thrice-removed actions that need to be analyzed and translated. 

 

A relationship is direct, personal, and immediate. And until God/Jesus actually comes and sits down next to you, puts physical arms around you, and hugs you tight, until God/Jesus is there so you can look into his eyes and squeeze his hands and speak directly to him and hear his answer back, you do NOT have a "relationship" with anyone. 

 

You have a belief. That is different. 

 

 

How do you know he hasn't responded?  What emotion would it illicit (happiness, sadness, anger, frustration) if you found out that he actually did?  And that when he did, he actually put himself in a position so as to be fully capable of empathizing with the loneliness and suffering you have borne?

 

I've once heard it said that suffering brings out the true essence of life-- which is love.  I've always thought that makes sense.  The homes we build for the homeless wouldn't matter much if the weather were always perfect and rocks could be made to feel like pillows would it?

 

Unfortunately there are those who do not respond to other people's suffering with love.  To these God promises hope that He will wipe away every tear, and right every wrong.  But before then we, ourselves, must be given a legitimate opportunity to exhibit love by responding to love (because that is what heaven is like-- people responding to love with more love).  And that could never happen if in a micro-managed world.

 

The message Jesus gave to the downtrodden and betrayed, and to the poor souls who had Pharisees for older brothers, was to be still and know that he suffered before us-- and that in the bonds of common suffering the fellowship of friends and brothers and sisters is made stronger.  I believe it is those bonds that truly transform, daily, those who hope in them.

[FriendlyChristian]

If jesus were a car:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qahB7mYhLxs

 

Every salesman (IE: christian of every denomination) has a close personal relationship with that car

The Baptists claim it's a blue honda prius (just go along with it)

The Methodists claim it's a corvette stingray (I like the Methodists already)

The Southern Baptists claim it's a red honda prius (well duh)

 

Every salesman will claim their relationship with that car drove them to be inspired, and they shared loving intimate moments with that car.

Yet they'll disagree with the mechanics, the color, the make, the model of that car.

 

I've, personally, always felt as though the key is to just go back to Jesus and his first followers.

[FriendlyChristian]

 

 

 

I think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being like any other relationship.  I value some certain relationships more than others, of course, because I can see how much the person in the relationship really exhibits legitimate concern for me.

 

Last time I asked Jesus to go bowling with me, he never showed up.

Last time I asked Jesus to help me fix a pipe, he never showed up.

Jesus never even showed up at my baptism.

He is a lousy friend. He never shows up. He never says anything. I always had to imagine what he might be saying and then pretend he said it. Just like you do. Because, he never shows up.

 

I now think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being with someone who doesn't exist.

 

 

Those are small things compared to what he did for me.  Of course I also have a few friends who have never done any of those things for me also, but they have exhibited their love for me in other (perhaps far more substantial) ways.

 

I suppose, by this, you mean the supreme sacrifice he made in going to sleep for three days to save you from the sins he created you with so that he wouldn't have to subject you to damnation in hell which he created.  Yeah, some friend.

 

I'd rather he'd just helped out around the house.

 

 

Well.  I think Jesus teachings make it fairly clear that heaven is just a place where people respond to love with love. . . and even the toe cringing idea of responding to hate with love.  While hell is just a place where people are caught up in a constant cycle of responding with all sorts of selfish behaviors that they are unwilling to let go of (which is what makes it hell).

[Roz]

 

If jesus were a car:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qahB7mYhLxs

 

Every salesman (IE: christian of every denomination) has a close personal relationship with that car

The Baptists claim it's a blue honda prius (just go along with it)

The Methodists claim it's a corvette stingray (I like the Methodists already)

The Southern Baptists claim it's a red honda prius (well duh)

 

Every salesman will claim their relationship with that car drove them to be inspired, and they shared loving intimate moments with that car.

Yet they'll disagree with the mechanics, the color, the make, the model of that car.

 

I've, personally, always felt as though the key is to just go back to Jesus and his first followers.

 

 

And you'll find every denomination has different takes on what jesus did, what jesus taught, and what he meant.  I know it's hard when you're one of the salespeople.  But once you ditch the blue honda prius, life will be much more coherent.  No more inconsistencies to deal with!

 

PS:  You're in Arizona, so are you following biblical law and only keeping Mexicans as your permanent property?

[Pantophobia]

 

How do you know he hasn't responded?  What emotion would it illicit (happiness, sadness, anger, frustration) if you found out that he actually did?  And that when he did, he actually put himself in a position so as to be fully capable of empathizing with the loneliness and suffering you have borne?

 

I've once heard it said that suffering brings out the true essence of life-- which is love.  I've always thought that makes sense.  The homes we build for the homeless wouldn't matter much if the weather were always perfect and rocks could be made to feel like pillows would it?

 

Unfortunately there are those who do not respond to other people's suffering with love.  To these God promises hope that He will wipe away every tear, and right every wrong.  But before then we, ourselves, must be given a legitimate opportunity to exhibit love by responding to love (because that is what heaven is like-- people responding to love with more love).  And that could never happen if in a micro-managed world.

 

The message Jesus gave to the downtrodden and betrayed, and to the poor souls who had Pharisees for older brothers, was to be still and know that he suffered before us-- and that in the bonds of common suffering the fellowship of friends and brothers and sisters is made stronger.  I believe it is those bonds that truly transform, daily, those who hope in them.

 

 

You said it yourself: you believe. And if your response to suffering was "true love," then good for you. That's nice. However, it doesn't change my decades of personal experience.

 

You want to know "What emotion would it illicit (happiness, sadness, anger, frustration) if you found out that he actually did?" Do you really think I haven't heard this six million times, FriendlyChristian? You, like every other Christian I've heard from birth, is going to once again tell me that his "actual response!" is blah blah blah dying on the cross ultimate sacrifice of love open your heart truly believe.... And the emotions that used to illicit in me for decades was sadness and frustration, hopelessness and worthlessness, guilt and fear, because sometimes, I just needed something other than a bible verse for comfort. Sometimes, I just needed the God that everyone insisted was the truest love of all to actually FEEL that way, instead of like some distant puppet-master. These are the emotions "his response" actually illicited in me for most of my life, because none of the promises Christians and Christianity were assuring me would happen ever came close to happening, no matter how many times I called out, gave myself, begged, worshiped. Also, when you are devastated, when you have devoted years and decades to believing, to trying, to calling out again and again to God only to feel emptiness and despair and horror that you are a worthless human being, the pap "But Jesus DIED ON THE CROSS FOR YOU!" is not comfort. It is not reassurance. It is not a relationship. It is bait-and-switch.

 

I've asked for direct examples. And again, Christians waffle around that with rhetoric about "sacrifice" and "messages." You've told us what you feel, think, and believe. That is also not a relationship. 

 

The Christian glurge about "I have a personal relationship with Jesus" is false. Every single example in this thread alone bears that out. 

[Adam5]

Well.  I think Jesus teachings make it fairly clear that heaven is just a place where people respond to love with love. . . and even the toe cringing idea of responding to hate with love.  While hell is just a place where people are caught up in a constant cycle of responding with all sorts of selfish behaviors that they are unwilling to let go of (which is what makes it hell).

Yeah, yeah we heard it beofre, its all about love   As ex-christians we know that heaven is an eternity of singing praises to the tribal deity Yahweh. You know, the one who endorses the slaughter of midianities, and take virgin girls into slavery. Nice chap.

 

An hell is an eternity of weaping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Thats for everyone who is not washed clean with the blood of the lamb, and eating the Jesus biscuit.  Please stop the planet and let me step off, the world is full of crazy people.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

I think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being like any other relationship.  I value some certain relationships more than others, of course, because I can see how much the person in the relationship really exhibits legitimate concern for me.

 

Last time I asked Jesus to go bowling with me, he never showed up.

Last time I asked Jesus to help me fix a pipe, he never showed up.

Jesus never even showed up at my baptism.

He is a lousy friend. He never shows up. He never says anything. I always had to imagine what he might be saying and then pretend he said it. Just like you do. Because, he never shows up.

 

I now think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being with someone who doesn't exist.

 

 

Those are small things compared to what he did for me.  Of course I also have a few friends who have never done any of those things for me also, but they have exhibited their love for me in other (perhaps far more substantial) ways.

 

 

What exactly did he do for you?

 

Answer: He set mankind up to fail from the very beginning, ensuring that sin would enter the world, knowing that once it did, all humans would be programmed to sin. He then blamed you and everyone else for doing what you were programmed to do (which was to sin) and then labeled you as a disgusting, little parasite that deserves to die because you sinned.

 

If Jesus was not actually Yahweh in human form, then what makes you think he had a choice? Maybe Yahweh used extortion to force Jesus into sacrificing himself to pay the price for all of the sins you've committed.

 

If Jesus was Yahweh in human form, then who is to say it wasn't just an act? Given the terrible things he did in the Old Testament and the fact he set mankind up to fail from day one, it seems reasonable to conclude that the death on the cross and all of the teaching would have been all for show, to further deceive gullible humans into thinking he loved them when he only loved himself.

 

If you truly have any relationship at all with Jesus/Yahweh, FriendlyChristian, then you are in an abusive relationship, of epic proportions, with a manipulative sociopath. If you are not convinced of this, then it means that you have successfully managed to deceive yourself into thinking that the abuse is not actually abuse.

 

Welcome to ex-C.net, by the way.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

If jesus were a car:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qahB7mYhLxs

 

Every salesman (IE: christian of every denomination) has a close personal relationship with that car

The Baptists claim it's a blue honda prius (just go along with it)

The Methodists claim it's a corvette stingray (I like the Methodists already)

The Southern Baptists claim it's a red honda prius (well duh)

 

Every salesman will claim their relationship with that car drove them to be inspired, and they shared loving intimate moments with that car.

Yet they'll disagree with the mechanics, the color, the make, the model of that car.

 

I've, personally, always felt as though the key is to just go back to Jesus and his first followers.

 

You have your feelings.  I have mine.

[midniterider]

 

 

I think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being like any other relationship.  I value some certain relationships more than others, of course, because I can see how much the person in the relationship really exhibits legitimate concern for me.

 

Last time I asked Jesus to go bowling with me, he never showed up.

Last time I asked Jesus to help me fix a pipe, he never showed up.

Jesus never even showed up at my baptism.

He is a lousy friend. He never shows up. He never says anything. I always had to imagine what he might be saying and then pretend he said it. Just like you do. Because, he never shows up.

 

I now think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being with someone who doesn't exist.

 

 

Those are small things compared to what he did for me.  Of course I also have a few friends who have never done any of those things for me also, but they have exhibited their love for me in other (perhaps far more substantial) ways.

 

 

Real existing human beings do exhibit their love for each other. Real existing human beings will help you fix a pipe or at least think up an excuse to not help you. Jesus never DOES anything at all. He never speaks (outside of you pretending he is telling you something which is really just your own  mind talking) and he never ever appears in person. Real people will show up in person and talk to you and do things. You can see them and hear them and they often have opinions that are different than yours. I dont have to pretend my real human friends are there.

 

If Jesus is real , why is he afraid to show his face? Why do people have to speak on behalf of this Jesus? Is the ALMIGHTY GOD a mute? Why do Christians continue to put up with a such a subtle lukewarm prayer response from their God that really is indistinguishable from random chance when their God is supposed to be the one that parted the Red Sea, flooded the earth and supposedly did 'miracles' in the new testament? Looks like the biblical God with balls just evaporated.....or was just a myth. He sure isn't here right now.

[midniterider]

 

How do you know he hasn't responded?  What emotion would it illicit (happiness, sadness, anger, frustration) if you found out that he actually did?  And that when he did, he actually put himself in a position so as to be fully capable of empathizing with the loneliness and suffering you have borne?

 

You usually know if someone has helped you because your situation has improved. Happiness is often an emotion associated with discovery that you've been helped. While empathy is a good thing, prevention of pain and suffering is a better thing.

 

I've once heard it said that suffering brings out the true essence of life-- which is love.  I've always thought that makes sense.  The homes we build for the homeless wouldn't matter much if the weather were always perfect and rocks could be made to feel like pillows would it?

 

So why don't you smash your thumb with a hammer? If suffering brings out the true essence of life, i.e. LOVE, you ought to want to cause a lot of suffering. More suffering = more love, right? Glory and Praise to people who shoot innocent children in schools and shopping malls for these shooters cause sufffering! Which is the essence of life....love. Suffering and pain is love. Can I get an amen? 

 

 

[midniterider]

 

If jesus were a car:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qahB7mYhLxs

 

Every salesman (IE: christian of every denomination) has a close personal relationship with that car

The Baptists claim it's a blue honda prius (just go along with it)

The Methodists claim it's a corvette stingray (I like the Methodists already)

The Southern Baptists claim it's a red honda prius (well duh)

 

Every salesman will claim their relationship with that car drove them to be inspired, and they shared loving intimate moments with that car.

Yet they'll disagree with the mechanics, the color, the make, the model of that car.

 

I've, personally, always felt as though the key is to just go back to Jesus and his first followers.

 

 

Your response to this video is non-sequitur. When I was a Christian I was also taught this tactic. When presented with a logical argument against Jesus, just say something like, "That's nice, but I choose to believe in Jesus." It's sort of like, "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up."

[midniterider]

 

If you truly have any relationship at all with Jesus/Yahweh, FriendlyChristian, then you are in an abusive relationship, of epic proportions, with a manipulative sociopath. If you are not convinced of this, then it means that you have successfully managed to deceive yourself into thinking that the abuse is not actually abuse.

 

 

Jesus LOVES you. But if you don't love him back, you BURN! This must be that suffering that somehow equals love in Friendly's mind.

[mymistake]

 

 

How do you know he hasn't responded?  What emotion would it illicit (happiness, sadness, anger, frustration) if you found out that he actually did?  And that when he did, he actually put himself in a position so as to be fully capable of empathizing with the loneliness and suffering you have borne?

 

I've once heard it said that suffering brings out the true essence of life-- which is love.  I've always thought that makes sense.  The homes we build for the homeless wouldn't matter much if the weather were always perfect and rocks could be made to feel like pillows would it?

 

Unfortunately there are those who do not respond to other people's suffering with love.  To these God promises hope that He will wipe away every tear, and right every wrong.  But before then we, ourselves, must be given a legitimate opportunity to exhibit love by responding to love (because that is what heaven is like-- people responding to love with more love).  And that could never happen if in a micro-managed world.

 

The message Jesus gave to the downtrodden and betrayed, and to the poor souls who had Pharisees for older brothers, was to be still and know that he suffered before us-- and that in the bonds of common suffering the fellowship of friends and brothers and sisters is made stronger.  I believe it is those bonds that truly transform, daily, those who hope in them.

 

 

 

Except it doesn't work out that way in practice.  There invariably winds up with one or a few con artists at the top who use the tithe for their own personal gain and often use the saturation of blind trust to feed their own sexual desires.  The message of Jesus is the hook used to fool people.  Yes, the message is super nice.  That is the point.  Such a wonderful, nice message turns people into victims by the thousands.

[Guest MadameX]

 

 

I've once heard it said that suffering brings out the true essence of life-- which is love.  I've always thought that makes sense.  The homes we build for the homeless wouldn't matter much if the weather were always perfect and rocks could be made to feel like pillows would it?

 

 

 

Close the hospitals, shutter the cancer research labs. No need for anesthesia in this world of 'love'! In fact, open the prisons - more crime would cause more suffering - yay!!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

 

I think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being like any other relationship.  I value some certain relationships more than others, of course, because I can see how much the person in the relationship really exhibits legitimate concern for me.

 

Last time I asked Jesus to go bowling with me, he never showed up.

Last time I asked Jesus to help me fix a pipe, he never showed up.

Jesus never even showed up at my baptism.

He is a lousy friend. He never shows up. He never says anything. I always had to imagine what he might be saying and then pretend he said it. Just like you do. Because, he never shows up.

 

I now think of my personal relationship with Jesus as being with someone who doesn't exist.

 

 

Those are small things compared to what he did for me.  Of course I also have a few friends who have never done any of those things for me also, but they have exhibited their love for me in other (perhaps far more substantial) ways.

 

I suppose, by this, you mean the supreme sacrifice he made in going to sleep for three days to save you from the sins he created you with so that he wouldn't have to subject you to damnation in hell which he created.  Yeah, some friend.

 

I'd rather he'd just helped out around the house.

 

 

Well.  I think Jesus teachings make it fairly clear that heaven is just a place where people respond to love with love. . . and even the toe cringing idea of responding to hate with love.  While hell is just a place where people are caught up in a constant cycle of responding with all sorts of selfish behaviors that they are unwilling to let go of (which is what makes it hell).

 

Could you please provide evidence that jesus' teachings were actually taught by the son of god and not just made up centuries later by the creators of the christ myth?