Jesus Camp

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

I didn't get mad at the main lady of "Jesus Camp," because I knew that she must have been indoctrinated the exact same way as a child and adolescent. When that happens, it's often an epic struggle to escape as an adult, as many here testify daily. Most don't see any reason to. 

 

I have no doubt that this film accurately documents what is happening in the home schooling movement in America on a grand scale. Young earth creationism, anti-science, apocalypticism, Satan is real, the whole works. 

As someone who was homeschooled for the entirety of their childhood education, I can confirm this.  We were taught that science can't "prove" anything, that evolution was just a hypothesis and creationism was far more rational.  I had friends, fellow homeschooled victims, who literally believed dragons existed along with the dinosaurs.  Ken Ham was our Bill Nye.  

 

For an idea of the ridiculous indoctrination shoved down our throats, this exact textbook linked elsewhere on this forum was something I was actually taught from.

 

Every English lesson was a sermon.  Every science lesson turned into Sunday School.  We studied Bible history, not world history.  This should be illegal.

 

To begin with, Blood makes a good point.  It does us good to remember that the most devout and obnoxious fundies were once just little kids trying to make sense of the horrifying indoctrination that was being forced on them.  I often find it helpful to view religion as a virus that people are infected with; it helps me feel compassion for them if I think of them as being sick.

 

Secondly, while I wasn't homeschooled, I did attend a private christian school and was taught according to the A Beka curriculum http://www.abeka.com/  So I can identify completely with what bluel0bster has written here.  What a completely overbearing brain fuck.

[Ousian]

 

 

I didn't get mad at the main lady of "Jesus Camp," because I knew that she must have been indoctrinated the exact same way as a child and adolescent. When that happens, it's often an epic struggle to escape as an adult, as many here testify daily. Most don't see any reason to. 

 

I have no doubt that this film accurately documents what is happening in the home schooling movement in America on a grand scale. Young earth creationism, anti-science, apocalypticism, Satan is real, the whole works. 

As someone who was homeschooled for the entirety of their childhood education, I can confirm this.  We were taught that science can't "prove" anything, that evolution was just a hypothesis and creationism was far more rational.  I had friends, fellow homeschooled victims, who literally believed dragons existed along with the dinosaurs.  Ken Ham was our Bill Nye.  

 

For an idea of the ridiculous indoctrination shoved down our throats, this exact textbook linked elsewhere on this forum was something I was actually taught from.

 

Every English lesson was a sermon.  Every science lesson turned into Sunday School.  We studied Bible history, not world history.  This should be illegal.

 

To begin with, Blood makes a good point.  It does us good to remember that the most devout and obnoxious fundies were once just little kids trying to make sense of the horrifying indoctrination that was being forced on them.  I often find it helpful to view religion as a virus that people are infected with; it helps me feel compassion for them if I think of them as being sick.

 

Secondly, while I wasn't homeschooled, I did attend a private christian school and was taught according to the A Beka curriculum http://www.abeka.com/  So I can identify completely with what bluel0bster has written here.  What a completely overbearing brain fuck.

 

Ah, A Beka. Yep used that one too

 

The amount of bending over backwards people do in this country to avoid "intolerance" of any sort is absurd.

[Pantophobia]

I just keep thinking about that one little girl who "witnessed" to total strangers, because "God is telling me to come talk to you." It's just so cruel and manipulative to put kids in that position, for a variety of reasons. And she's so sure that she's doing something wonderful by butting into strangers' lives with her Jesus babble! She's so positive that she has a message they need to hear! And maybe for some, it's cute or innocuous. But I keep thinking about all of us who are damaged by or angry at Christianity... and then this wide-eye'd innocent comes up to you with her earnest and sincere message, and, no matter how you respond, it's wrong. Sometimes, the LAST thing a person needs to hear is that a child thinks that God has a special message for them. Sometimes, it's the least comforting and most cruel thing in the world to hear. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I just keep thinking about that one little girl who "witnessed" to total strangers, because "God is telling me to come talk to you." It's just so cruel and manipulative to put kids in that position, for a variety of reasons. And she's so sure that she's doing something wonderful by butting into strangers' lives with her Jesus babble! She's so positive that she has a message they need to hear! And maybe for some, it's cute or innocuous. But I keep thinking about all of us who are damaged by or angry at Christianity... and then this wide-eye'd innocent comes up to you with her earnest and sincere message, and, no matter how you respond, it's wrong. Sometimes, the LAST thing a person needs to hear is that a child thinks that God has a special message for them. Sometimes, it's the least comforting and most cruel thing in the world to hear. 

I did the same thing when the delusion was still strong upon me.  It is totally sick and depraved.  

[Pantophobia]

I didn't get mad at the main lady of "Jesus Camp," because I knew that she must have been indoctrinated the exact same way as a child and adolescent. When that happens, it's often an epic struggle to escape as an adult, as many here testify daily. Most don't see any reason to. 

 

I'm glad you said this. I'm so angry at people like Becky Fisher, putting that kind of abusive pressure on children who are simply not equipped to cope with it. Of course, I'm starting to feel about these people like I do about pedophiles: yes, they were likely abused, too. But that doesn't give them any kind of free pass for what they're doing and have done to other children (and adults) as a result. But I needed the reminder that at one point, Becky Fisher was as much a manipulated child as any of these kids. How many of these children are engaged in group-approved behavior? How many are acting out of fear? How many are faking, in desperation that at some point it will feel real, like they've been promised? It just feels even more sad and hollow to see from this end of things.

 

It's like this kind of thing here with the "baby preacher." I can't believe there is anyone who looks at something like this and goes "OMG JESUS!1!", not "Um... little kid playacting for adults' approval with ZERO concept of what he's doing." But that's Christianity for you.

 

[lareason]

I used to be part of a group at my church where we would set out to trailer parks and knock on doors to share the gospel and witness.

 

Trailer parks because I guess the church assumed that everyone there must be lost and needing Jesus? We were going to be the messengers of God bringing hope to the lost? It makes me want to throw up thinking about it.

 

Churches like that actually tell you that the stupider you feel and the more you are rejected by people the better you are doing for Jesus. Go up and make a complete moron of yourself in public witnessing to someone you don't know? Score one for Jesus! Get a door slammed in your face? At least you planted a seed! Good job! Just convinced the pregnant 16 year old to accept Christ because she's terrified and wants something to hold onto? Awesome, you did as God asked. Gag me.

[francesco]

One of the best horror movie ever made by christian

 

I like the part where the children approach people on the street

Jesus Camp Children (JCC) : if you were to die right now where do you think you would go?

people (P): heaven

jcc: really?

P: yeah

jcc: are you sure?

P: yeah

jcc: ok (and left)

 

they look confuse, lost and don't know what to do

[Ousian]

One of the best horror movie ever made by christian

 

I like the part where the children approach people on the street

Jesus Camp Children (JCC) : if you were to die right now where do you think you would go?

people (P): heaven

jcc: really?

P: yeah

jcc: are you sure?

P: yeah

jcc: ok (and left)

 

they look confuse, lost and don't know what to do

I was taught to evangelize using just this method when I was younger, asking people where they think they will go when they die.

[xtify]

 

One of the best horror movie ever made by christian

 

I like the part where the children approach people on the street

Jesus Camp Children (JCC) : if you were to die right now where do you think you would go?

people (P): heaven

jcc: really?

P: yeah

jcc: are you sure?

P: yeah

jcc: ok (and left)

 

they look confuse, lost and don't know what to do

I was taught to evangelize using just this method when I was younger, asking people where they think they will go when they die.

 

 

Me too.  It's so cruel to do this to kids.  You get a bad rep in your town because everyone knows you as that jerk kid who came to their door, when really, most likely you were forced to do it.

[bfuddled]

I'm a bit late on this topic, but I agree (mostly) with what's been said. It's funny, the first time I watched some of this movie I was just beginning to have doubts, and I was struck with the fact that the whole thing seemed "normal" to me in that I wasn't shocked or amazed by anything I saw. That was church camp when I was growing up! Speaking in tongues, crying your eyes out, rolling on the floor laughing, it was all part of the :"experience".

 

Now that I watch it and see it I have a cringing sick to my stomach feeling. I'm struck by how blatantly manipulative so many of the psychological techniques the adults employ are. OF COURSE children are going to start wailing and "repenting" and falling on the ground if everyone else around them is doing it.. it's not the Holy Spirit, it's peer pressure and emotionality! The fact that the way so many Christian pastors gauge how "good" they are doing is by how emotionally worked up they get the crowd is sick and twisted, especially when the audience is comprised of children. They're not stupid, they know what is expected of them, and they will perform because they get the "reward" of being told how pleased Jesus is with them and they get the approval of the adults around them.

 

On the other hand I'm torn (a common place for me right now), because my mom was the children's pastor at our church for 10+ years, so SHE was the one who directed/organized all these camps that I went to. My parents are still Christian, but they are in an entirely different place now and my mom has expressed more than once that she doesn't agree with a lot of this stuff anymore. But at the time she was just as deep into it as the people on the video are and had bought the lie 100%. My mom is an amazing woman who spends most of her time in service to others, and I don't think for a second that she organized this type of stuff with anything but good intentions and with the thought that she was doing the right thing.

 

In fact, this is part of where I'm struggling right now. I hate the system, but the church family I grew up in and the people that influenced my life were really all good people. I am probably in the minority, as I know there are plenty of people who had horrible experiences with people in the church, but I can't think of one person off the top of my head that didn't truly want to do the right thing when they were teaching children this junk. I think what I'm realizing, though, is that the people that were awesome people would have been that way with or without the church. My parents are amazing people because of who they are, not because they had the church to tell them what to do.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Now that I watch it and see it I have a cringing sick to my stomach feeling. I'm struck by how blatantly manipulative so many of the psychological techniques the adults employ are. OF COURSE children are going to start wailing and "repenting" and falling on the ground if everyone else around them is doing it.. it's not the Holy Spirit, it's peer pressure and emotionality! The fact that the way so many Christian pastors gauge how "good" they are doing is by how emotionally worked up they get the crowd is sick and twisted, especially when the audience is comprised of children. They're not stupid, they know what is expected of them, and they will perform because they get the "reward" of being told how pleased Jesus is with them and they get the approval of the adults around them.

 

I've come to realize that the only reason I ever bought into christianity was because of this very defense mechanism.  I knew the only way I would be accepted by the people in my environment was to act like I believed.  My mother was especially good at manipulation.  If I even expressed a doubt or asked a question, I would be met with punishment, not just guilt, but physical punishment.  Eventually, it stopped being pretend for me and started to feel (and "become") real.  I know I was indoctrinated and in many ways had no choice in the matter; but I was also made into the cage of my own imprisonment, my own worst enemy.

[sdelsolray]

 

Now that I watch it and see it I have a cringing sick to my stomach feeling. I'm struck by how blatantly manipulative so many of the psychological techniques the adults employ are. OF COURSE children are going to start wailing and "repenting" and falling on the ground if everyone else around them is doing it.. it's not the Holy Spirit, it's peer pressure and emotionality! The fact that the way so many Christian pastors gauge how "good" they are doing is by how emotionally worked up they get the crowd is sick and twisted, especially when the audience is comprised of children. They're not stupid, they know what is expected of them, and they will perform because they get the "reward" of being told how pleased Jesus is with them and they get the approval of the adults around them.

 

I've come to realize that the only reason I ever bought into christianity was because of this very defense mechanism.  I knew the only way I would be accepted by the people in my environment was to act like I believed.  My mother was especially good at manipulation.  If I even expressed a doubt or asked a question, I would be met with punishment, not just guilt, but physical punishment.  Eventually, it stopped being pretend for me and started to feel (and "become") real.  I know I was indoctrinated and in many ways had no choice in the matter; but I was also made into the cage of my own imprisonment, my own worst enemy.

 

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself.  Children rarely have the power to break away from the abuse put upon them by trusted adults.  Instead, they are exposed to even more indoctrination and peer pressure.  As an adult, you finally broke away.  That's good.

[Blood]

Most people (I assume) have overall positive feelings about church or church people. The people who have negative experiences are more tempted to join a site like this and vent, because no one else would understand. I guess it's harder to make a decisive break when your family and the people at the church are kind, normal people.