The Ethics Of Abortion And Pro-Choice

[mymistake]

Until fairly recently, I hadn't been aware that birth control was even an issue for anyone but Catholics.  Or the idea that sex has to be for procreation only, and shouldn't be fun at all, even between married couples.  Those are some extreme views I hadn't even realized.  I was basically tought, once you get married, knock yourself out.

 

 

When I was a young man my pastor made it clear that I shouldn't be having sex at all.  So that was his position on birth control.  If you buy condoms it's because you intend to sin and you intend to reject God's plan for your life.

[Ravenstar]

Being both a parent and having made the choice to have an abortion at one time I have to say the choice to become a parent (and actually fulfill that role) is a huge one and much more significant than the one to not become one.. being a parent is the most difficult and challenging thing I have ever done.

 

I admire those who choose to become parents… but I wouldn't force it on anyone. I certainly would never look down on someone who made the choice to terminate a pregnancy. Parenthood isn't for everyone.

 

I know enough people who have been abandoned by their bio-parents.. the foster system is overburdened and doesn't work well, unwanted children are frequently abused… poverty-stricken and abused, neglected or unwanted children have many handicaps and many never overcome those. (children will always see being 'given up' as abandonment - even if later they can come to accept it may have been for the best).

 

For anyone who thinks the choice to have an abortion is easy… please stop… it's an excruciating choice. I don't regret my decision but 20-30 years later I still at times consider what might have been…no, it's not a choice without lasting emotional consequences. I did the right thing at the time, for me…but if I had been forced to go through with that pregnancy my life would have been very different…. and not pleasantly, as I had an abusive (read: psychotic antisocial personality disordered, and violent) ex… and a child would have tied me to him forever. (shudder). I may have had to kill him… to protect my child. (stop with the authorities thing… they are pretty much useless when it comes to crazy exes) I am grateful I had the choices I did.

 

I have a beautiful daughter who is also a high needs child…I am a single widowed working mother….. no, parenthood isn't for everyone. Even wanted, loved children can be too much for some people. Parenthood is tough (and rewarding too.. bittersweet)

 

Another thought… most abortions are carried out before the 12th week. Late term are not common and usually performed because of health issues for the mother or non-viability of the fetus.

 

Sometimes it pisses me off when men go on about abortion (though I realize there are issues there) because they will never carry a child and will never know how profoundly it changes you… how it feels, how wonderful and terrifying and how dangerous it can be… both physically and psychologically. To feel your body basically be taken over by this process, your emotions, your psychological state - the intense bond to your child (oxytocin is extremely powerful). The permanent changes to your body. To know that if it goes wrong it could kill you… I've experienced both the highs and the lows of pregnancy (an early miscarriage, an abortion, a late term miscarriage resulting in the death of my first daughter, and a drug-free natural birth - that unfortunately resulted in the inability to carry another child to term without significant medical intervention. AND I've always been responsible about birth control - go figure) and I could NEVER force someone to go through that. Ever.

 

My idea is that we need to take care of the people that are already here first.. especially the children. There are too many children out there without love and stability as it is.

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

Until fairly recently, I hadn't been aware that birth control was even an issue for anyone but Catholics.  Or the idea that sex has to be for procreation only, and shouldn't be fun at all, even between married couples.  Those are some extreme views I hadn't even realized.  I was basically tought, once you get married, knock yourself out.

 

 

 

When I was a young man my pastor made it clear that I shouldn't be having sex at all.  So that was his position on birth control.  If you buy condoms it's because you intend to sin and you intend to reject God's plan for your life.

That would be because you weren't married. For many Christians birth control is perfectly fine for married couples.

[Guest Bambi]

My phone isn't allowing me to quote.

 

SilentLoner

 

No,a fetus that was created from the result of rape isn't any different, but obviously the abused and emotionally distraught woman most likely will want to terminate no questions asked. Also no I don't have any desire to see the other women "punished" I care about the life which they created. I can almost guarantee that if I was to fork over a hefty sum, to buy their baby from them, the majority of Women would conviently want their child after the birth (which occurs quite frequently with surragettes ( and it is not even their child)

 

2. I don't want abortion to be illegal as that would dipicte a controlled nation.

 

3. Not to judge people but if you're talking about a once in a lifetime college like Yale or Harvard, most people with those grades tend to have the facilities and people around them to help with the difficult months. Until the child can put with a childminder, not ideal, but I'm sure the kid will prefer it to the other option.

 

The planet is overpopulated, exactly. That is why people should not allow themselves to get in that situation. If their was no such thing as abortion, I'm pretty sure condom sales would rise.

 

And yes it does break my heart, when children are neglected, etc. Never once have I thought that child would have been better of aborted.

 

Just to add that I don't get emotional when Women decide to terminate say a month old pregnancy. Most women I've talked to who are pro abortion tend to be in favour of any abortion in any circumstance. For instance the latest possible termination you can have, and if she changes her mind. My opinion is, if you can walk in the clinic, terminate your baby after having it inside you for several months and not feel a thing that is sociopathic behaviour. If you are battling in your mind what to do and crying over this choice, then that almost proves this is the wrong decision.

 

My opinion.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

The planet is overpopulated, exactly. That is why people should not allow themselves to get in that situation. If their was no such thing as abortion, I'm pretty sure condom sales would rise.

I don't think people are deliberately not buying condoms just because they can legally have abortions.  An abortion is not quite that easy to go through.

 

Many unwanted pregnancies are the result of contraceptive failure.

 

Pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion.  I want women to have the choice, for me that would most likely mean an abortion, but for others it can mean not having an abortion.  That is what choice means.

[mymistake]

 

 

Until fairly recently, I hadn't been aware that birth control was even an issue for anyone but Catholics.  Or the idea that sex has to be for procreation only, and shouldn't be fun at all, even between married couples.  Those are some extreme views I hadn't even realized.  I was basically tought, once you get married, knock yourself out.

 

 

When I was a young man my pastor made it clear that I shouldn't be having sex at all.  So that was his position on birth control.  If you buy condoms it's because you intend to sin and you intend to reject God's plan for your life.

That would be because you weren't married. For many Christians birth control is perfectly fine for married couples.

 

 

 

True.  But there are also denominations where the dogma is that sex shouldn't be fun even for married people.  Sex is a duty.  You do it because God commanded you to fill the Earth and sex makes babies.

 

Christians fall into a wide range on this issue.  Like I said, not all of the followers would stick to the dogma in the privacy of their own bedroom.

[Ro-bear]

I eschew the emotional aspect of the argument in favor of the practical.  First off, why is murder wrong?  Not because God said so.  Not for any objective reason.  Murder is wrong because none of us wants to be murdered.  Nor do we want anyone we know to be murdered.  So we say murder is wrong, and we prohibit it.  None of us are fetuses.  None of us know any fetuses.  What is our interest in the fetus?  We have none, so why afford the fetus the protection of the law we made up for post-birth humans? 

[SilentLoner]

No,a fetus that was created from the result of rape isn't any different, but obviously the abused and emotionally distraught woman most likely will want to terminate no questions asked. Also no I don't have any desire to see the other women "punished" I care about the life which they created. I can almost guarantee that if I was to fork over a hefty sum, to buy their baby from them, the majority of Women would conviently want their child after the birth (which occurs quite frequently with surragettes ( and it is not even their child)

 

Plenty of women who weren't raped can be emotionally distraught over an unexpected pregnancy. 

 

So your big argument is that some people will do stuff for money? Very weak.

 

I hate to tell you this, but surrogates aren't found by randomly offering money to women walking around. And notice how not everyone is lining up to do surrogacy? Its not an easy thing. 

 

2. I don't want abortion to be illegal as that would dipicte a controlled nation.

 

 

But you said you would approve of it being approved only for rape and mother's health?

 

3. Not to judge people but if you're talking about a once in a lifetime college like Yale or Harvard, most people with those grades tend to have the facilities and people around them to help with the difficult months. Until the child can put with a childminder, not ideal, but I'm sure the kid will prefer it to the other option.

 

A college doesn't have to be Harvard or Yale to be expensive beyond reach, I once again hate to tell you. 

 

Embryos don't have preferences.

 

The planet is overpopulated, exactly. That is why people should not allow themselves to get in that situation. If their was no such thing as abortion, I'm pretty sure condom sales would rise.

 

 

"Not allow themselves to get in that situation" - Very naive. People shouldn't be in love, relationships or get married? 

 

Condom sales are already very high. But to once again give you a reality check, they can fail. Many women who get abortions do so because their BC failed. In places where abortions are illegal, why don't condom sales prevent all need for abortion, hm?

 

Just to add that I don't get emotional when Women decide to terminate say a month old pregnancy. Most women I've talked to who are pro abortion tend to be in favour of any abortion in any circumstance. For instance the latest possible termination you can have, and if she changes her mind. My opinion is, if you can walk in the clinic, terminate your baby after having it inside you for several months and not feel a thing that is sociopathic behaviour. 

 

 

Except you are making up a blatantly false dilemma. Abortions don't happen in late trimesters because a woman decides to waltz into a clinic on a whim. That's the type of scenario xtians would make up at church to scare youth groups. I find it hard to believe you actually talked to women who had this view.

 

If you are battling in your mind what to do and crying over this choice, then that almost proves this is the wrong decision.

 

 

Simpleton thinking at its finest.

 

My opinion.

[Guest Bambi]

I believe abortion should be legal in every country, and not be limited to just victims, (I never said that) No woman should have to carry and give birth against her wishes.

 

I know plenty of people who don't use any kind of contraception, the implant, the pill, condoms...

and have quite openly said if they get pregnant they will probably "abort it"

 

Most people I have spoken to, who are huge advocates of abortion, believe it is all the same, any stage, any circumstance.

With that logic, if a couple had planned a baby, and after many months the woman decides to "back out" the father would have to just shut up and deal with it, unable to do anything, because its her body therefore she owns the right to the child's life, it seems to fall under the umbrella of Women's rights, which I think is twisted.

 

I don't even want to address the College issue, "Money is tight right now" is so petty. Especially when you live in a country that provides benefits, Somebody I know was pregnant at fifteen, and had support from both college and housing.

 

I realise that "accidents happen". That is why I will never be anti abortion. I also realise they're are more situations where the father doesn't want to be involved, the mother has health or drug issues. That is also why I will never be anti abortion.

 

I will always be Pro-life, I believe in preventing something from happening rather than destroying it. Especially in the later stages, I just wish more atheists had this view, because I do believe the Christians may have got one right.

[SilentLoner]

I know plenty of people who don't use any kind of contraception, the implant, the pill, condoms...

and have quite openly said if they get pregnant they will probably "abort it"

 

Anecdotal evidence isn't exactly the best indicator of things. And even if that's true, I highly doubt they would be thrilled to dish out a few hundred dollars every other month.

 

I know if I ever got pregnant I would have an abortion, that's because I don't want children ever.

 

 

Most people I have spoken to, who are huge advocates of abortion, believe it is all the same, any stage, any circumstance.

 

 

I have been active in pro choice activism for many years and find there is quite a bit of variety.

 

You must hang out with a very interesting bunch.

 

I don't even want to address the College issue, "Money is tight right now" is so petty. Especially when you live in a country that provides benefits, Somebody I know was pregnant at fifteen, and had support from both college and housing.

 

 

Poverty is petty to you. Good to know. Once again you throw out anecdata that is not reflective of actual numbers out there. I don't know what kind of "benefits" you think are so freely available.

 

With that logic, if a couple had planned a baby, and after many months the woman decides to "back out" the father would have to just shut up and deal with it, unable to do anything, because its her body therefore she owns the right to the child's life, it seems to fall under the umbrella of Women's rights, which I think is twisted.

 

 

 

The alternative is to give the husband final say over his wife's body. Which opens up a nasty Pandora's box. 

 

What's "many months?" Why do your resort to the false dilemma fallacy?

 

 

I will always be Pro-life, I believe in preventing something from happening rather than destroying it. 

 

 

You do know its pro choice people who advocate for sex ed and birth control rather than "pro lifers" right? And if you think abortion should remain a legal option for women even though you wouldn't have one yourself, that makes you more pro-choice leaning.

 

Especially in the later stages, I just wish more atheists had this view, because I do believe the Christians may have got one right.

 

 

Why are you under the impression late term abortions are so common? They're not. 

 

Many christians are pro choice, sorry to tell you. And those who aren't, are in my experience, not so much motivated by protecting a fetus as much as seeing women punished. A big reason I stopped being anti abortion was the sheer hypocrisy I saw from that side. I can't count how many times I heard abortion opponents bitch about welfare and food stamps, demonize single mothers, etc. in the words of George Carlin: "If you're pre-born, you're fine, if you're pre-school, you're fucked." 

[SilentLoner]

Why I perform abortions: A Christian obstetrician explains his choice

 

http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2012/05/why_i_perform_abortions_a_chri.html

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

 

 

Until fairly recently, I hadn't been aware that birth control was even an issue for anyone but Catholics.  Or the idea that sex has to be for procreation only, and shouldn't be fun at all, even between married couples.  Those are some extreme views I hadn't even realized.  I was basically tought, once you get married, knock yourself out.

 

 

When I was a young man my pastor made it clear that I shouldn't be having sex at all.  So that was his position on birth control.  If you buy condoms it's because you intend to sin and you intend to reject God's plan for your life.

That would be because you weren't married. For many Christians birth control is perfectly fine for married couples.

 

 

 

True.  But there are also denominations where the dogma is that sex shouldn't be fun even for married people.  Sex is a duty.  You do it because God commanded you to fill the Earth and sex makes babies.

 

Christians fall into a wide range on this issue.  Like I said, not all of the followers would stick to the dogma in the privacy of their own bedroom.

 

 

Oh yeah, I'm well aware that those exist, but as you indicate, they definitely don't represent all Christians. In the Christian circles I've been in, birth control was not seen as a bad thing in and of itself. Most opposed teaching safe sex to kids because they wanted to only emphasize abstinence before marriage, but birth control was seen as perfectly fine for married couples. My point was simply that that is a rather common view among Christians. I was not in any way, shape or form insinuating that there are no opposing views espoused by Christians.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Why I perform abortions: A Christian obstetrician explains his choice

 

http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2012/05/why_i_perform_abortions_a_chri.html

 

That's an interesting read. Thanks for sharing it. I'll have to save it in case I need to reference it sometime.

[Guest Bambi]

SilentLoner. I already said I do not think abortion should be illegal in any country for anyone who wants it.

This is why I don't like debating with people who are advocates of abortion, I don't know what more you want from me?

 

Good to know poverty is petty to me? Please stop with those kind of statements, much appreciated I don't know how it is in the states but in the UK, in most cases you can so much help as a young mother. Its not good from the other side, as the tax payers and the people who work hard ultimately lose out. Its not a good situation, a Christian will look at the world and advise abstaining from sex. I think that is unhealthy that is why I wish everybody would use some form of contraception.

 

People who are 100% sure they don't want kids, if they have the financial means, should maybe undergo surgery to ensure that does not happen.

 

Also with regards to the man controlling his girlfriend/wife's body. If there was a planned pregnancy and she did just not want to have it anymore. I would side with the man personally. He's the one who wants to keep his child alive.

 

That sounds incredibly black and white, but there it is. The same Woman and her friends fighting over her right to abort the child. And I am in favour of her having that abortion, even though I support the father, because if she couldn't have it done, she would be oppressed, and I am against that. By in those cases where this is the situation. The woman will have what she asks for, the child would never got to live with his/her father, because the woman chose to whip the vacuum out at six months, and I don't wish for this to be illegal, I can't give you anymore than that, I'm sorry.

[Ravenstar]

 

Being both a parent and having made the choice to have an abortion at one time I have to say the choice to become a parent (and actually fulfill that role) is a huge one and much more significant than the one to not become one.. being a parent is the most difficult and challenging thing I have ever done.

 

I admire those who choose to become parents… but I wouldn't force it on anyone. I certainly would never look down on someone who made the choice to terminate a pregnancy. Parenthood isn't for everyone.

 

I know enough people who have been abandoned by their bio-parents.. the foster system is overburdened and doesn't work well, unwanted children are frequently abused… poverty-stricken and abused, neglected or unwanted children have many handicaps and many never overcome those. (children will always see being 'given up' as abandonment - even if later they can come to accept it may have been for the best).

 

For anyone who thinks the choice to have an abortion is easy… please stop… it's an excruciating choice. I don't regret my decision but 20-30 years later I still at times consider what might have been…no, it's not a choice without lasting emotional consequences. I did the right thing at the time, for me…but if I had been forced to go through with that pregnancy my life would have been very different…. and not pleasantly, as I had an abusive (read: psychotic antisocial personality disordered, and violent) ex… and a child would have tied me to him forever. (shudder). I may have had to kill him… to protect my child. (stop with the authorities thing… they are pretty much useless when it comes to crazy exes) I am grateful I had the choices I did.

 

I have a beautiful daughter who is also a high needs child…I am a single widowed working mother….. no, parenthood isn't for everyone. Even wanted, loved children can be too much for some people. Parenthood is tough (and rewarding too.. bittersweet)

 

Another thought… most abortions are carried out before the 12th week. Late term are not common and usually performed because of health issues for the mother or non-viability of the fetus.

 

Sometimes it pisses me off when men go on about abortion (though I realize there are issues there) because they will never carry a child and will never know how profoundly it changes you… how it feels, how wonderful and terrifying and how dangerous it can be… both physically and psychologically. To feel your body basically be taken over by this process, your emotions, your psychological state - the intense bond to your child (oxytocin is extremely powerful). The permanent changes to your body. To know that if it goes wrong it could kill you… I've experienced both the highs and the lows of pregnancy (an early miscarriage, an abortion, a late term miscarriage resulting in the death of my first daughter, and a drug-free natural birth - that unfortunately resulted in the inability to carry another child to term without significant medical intervention. AND I've always been responsible about birth control - go figure) and I could NEVER force someone to go through that. Ever.

 

My idea is that we need to take care of the people that are already here first.. especially the children. There are too many children out there without love and stability as it is.

Yes absolutely it is an excruciating choice to make.  Whichever choice is going to same the Mother and the Baby the most grief is the right choice in my book.  I hate to see suffering in the world or antisocial criminals hurting others as a result of coming from an abusive broken and neglectfull family.

 

However, if you had a baby with this sociopathic ex of yours, nothing would bind you to him.  Any judge who had evidence that your husband is disturbed will give you custody.  Even if your husband isn't a sociopath, the Mother usually gets custody.   When my parents divorced my mom was the one sort of loony and my Dad was responsible.  They fought more than one custody battle and Mom won every time even though my Dad could provide evidence that she was sort of out to lunch.

 

Fathers have rights in Canada... sorry. There would be no way short of him being deemed by the courts a dangerous offender for them to deny him his parental rights.. and he was too smart to get caught being a serious nutcase. Even if I had gotten full custody he would still have had right of visitation…yes, even as a criminal... which means I'm stuck wherever and I would have to facilitate access. 

 

Nutcase psycho dude beat me for 3 days, after breaking into my house and hiding in the closet. He was convicted of aggravated assault with a weapon (Black belt), and unlawful confinement.. he served 3 months in a minimum security facility and 18 months probation. (whoop-de-fucking-do) There was no restraining order issued. Don't talk to me about the law and domestic violence - it's a fucking joke.

 

No…The 'baby' is not a baby… it's a fetus.. in most cases an embryo. Voluntary termination is mostly done BEFORE 12 weeks of pregnancy. Seriously.. stop the sentimentality. I've had a early spontaneous miscarriage… it's NOT like giving birth and the result is NOT a child.

 

If you can't bear a child.. I'm not interested in what you have to say about what I do with my body. Actually I'm not even interested if you DO have an uterus.

[flockoff]

-

[WaitingInfinity]

I'm with SilentLoner. I'm going to take many precautions to prevent a pregnancy, but if I ever found out that I was pregnant, I would have an abortion. I don't want children.

 

Abortion for me is my last resort. It's the plan Z that I hope I never have to use, but I will. I'm glad that it is available now and I hope it is available as long as I am under the threat of becoming pregnant.

 

Parenting is huge. How you parent, your genetics, your environment, all combine to produce this child that could be either an angel or bat-shit crazy, depending on the combination of things. For myself, depression and anxiety run in mine and my significant other's families. To have a child would saddle this child with almost the certainty of becoming dangerously depressed and anxious to the point of being highly phobic or suicidal. Our families also have histories of diabetes, meaning this child would certainly be at risk for that. Further, my SO's dad had a heart attack. This risk could also pass to our child. I also doubt my parenting skills. I'm not fond of children. I would be afraid to neglect or be cold to this child. What would that do to him/her? For myself, the compassion I have for any children I could potentially have outranks my desire to have them. I do not want to bring a child into this world to suffer.

 

And then of course, I am terrified of pregnancy and childbirth. TERRIFIED and disgusted by it. 

 

So abortion had better stay legal. Surely a sane person would not say that I have to suffer through pregnancy and childbirth for the sake of my child. That is blatant disregard for my feelings and my fears. No one should be responsible for a child they do not want! That only leads to potentially poor parenting.

[SilentLoner]

SilentLoner. I already said I do not think abortion should be illegal in any country for anyone who wants it.

This is why I don't like debating with people who are advocates of abortion, I don't know what more you want from me?

 

And I don't like debating with people who mischaracterize women who get abortions, but I feel its an important thing to do. If you don't want to debate, then don't keep replying.

 

Good to know poverty is petty to me? Please stop with those kind of statements, much appreciated  

Then you can stop implying that you do  

 

And once again, not all forms of contraceptives are 100% fail proof. 

 

People who are 100% sure they don't want kids, if they have the financial means, should maybe undergo surgery to ensure that does not happen.

 

In many places, including the U.S. it is very, very difficult to convince a doctor to do sterilization surgeries on you, especially for women who haven't had children. I've known people who had to look for years to find a doctor willing to help them.

 

Heck, even a surgery can backfire - a married couple I know got an abortion after the husband's vasectomy reversed itself. 

 

Also with regards to the man controlling his girlfriend/wife's body. If there was a planned pregnancy and she did just not want to have it anymore. I would side with the man personally. He's the one who wants to keep his child alive.

 

We can play "what if's" scenarios all day, but honestly I find them disingenuous. Do you have an actual case of this happening?

 

That sounds incredibly black and white, but there it is. The same Woman and her friends fighting over her right to abort the child. And I am in favour of her having that abortion, even though I support the father, because if she couldn't have it done, she would be oppressed, and I am against that. By in those cases where this is the situation. The woman will have what she asks for, the child would never got to live with his/her father, because the woman chose to whip the vacuum out at six months, and I don't wish for this to be illegal, I can't give you anymore than that, I'm sorry.

 

 

There you go again. Do you think abortions at six months are so easy to come by? 

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I asked for years to get sterilised and the doctors would always say "but you might change your mind".  They weren't respecting my decision about my body.  A bit like anti-choice people.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

I asked for years to get sterilised and the doctors would always say "but you might change your mind".  They weren't respecting my decision about my body.  A bit like anti-choice people.

 

You should tell them, "So fucking what if I might change my mind one day? This is MY decision and you have NO right to refuse to do this operation."

 

If that doesn't work, you could always hold people hostage until they agree to do the operation, but hopefully it doesn't come to that...

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

I asked for years to get sterilised and the doctors would always say "but you might change your mind".  They weren't respecting my decision about my body.  A bit like anti-choice people.

 

You should tell them, "So fucking what if I might change my mind one day? This is MY decision and you have NO right to refuse to do this operation."

 

If that doesn't work, you could always hold people hostage until they agree to do the operation, but hopefully it doesn't come to that...

 

I won in the end, once I was almost old enough for it not to matter.  When it comes to abortion rights however, women can't afford to wait it out.

[midniterider]

Note before I get into this: I know this is a controversial issue and I'm not sure if this is the right place for this topic, but I couldn't find a better fit. Please let me know if this should go somewhere else. Also, this is not me trying to start a debate - I'm trying to understand the other side of the issue after only being exposed to one side of the debate for so long. I'd like to know how other ex-Christians have come to conclusions on this issue.

 

Hi all,

 

I'm a recently deconverted Christian as of a couple months ago. There are many ethics from Christianity that, now that I no longer believe, are easy for me to accept the opposite of what Christianity teaches such as homosexuality. However, one issue that I have trouble with (and had no trouble accepting as a Christian unlike some issues) is the thinking around the topic of abortion. Within Christianity, you are assumed to be pro-life. Now that I'm outside, I'm finding that the assumption is that I would be pro-choice.

 

The problem is, abortion seemed to be the only major morality issue where it was "us Christians against the world" that actually made sense and that I actually agreed with on an intellectual level. A pastor I used to listen to even said that this is the one area where people want to ignore science. After all, a fetus has heartbeats and brain activity at very early stages of development. A fetus seems to have everything that makes us human. Why are we only to consider a fetus to be human once he or she is born?

 

I understand that there are differences between a fetus and a baby. With a fetus, there's another person tied to him or her - the mother. As a male, it's hard for me to completely understand the issues women would face with this issue since I cannot experience it first-hand. It's unfair that women are the ones who have to deal with unwanted and unexpected pregnancies. It's unfair that in something that requires a male and a female, that the female has to deal with the majority of the fallout.

 

However, the mother is not the only person who has to deal with the fallout of the decision. The already-alive fetus will live or die based on the mother's decision. Does not the importance of the life of another human being outweigh the importance of another's not being inconvenienced (obviously if the mother's health is at risk, it's a different story, but not even a hardcore Christian would disagree with abortion in the case where the life of the mother is threatened)?

 

I can understand that mandating that a woman carry a pregnancy to term is heavy-handed. Potentially, there could be legitimate reasons why one would need to terminate a pregnancy and one would not want to go through government bureaucracy in order to prove that the reason is legitimate. However, even if there is free choice on the matter, why is the decision to terminate a human life not taken more grievously? If you had to kill someone, wouldn't you make sure that you exhausted all other options? It seems (this may be only Christian brainwashing talking) that the decision to terminate is taken lightly. I don't want a baby right now therefore, I terminate.

 

Enough of my rambling though. I'm interested to hear all of your thoughts on this issue. As people who most likely were at one point pro-life, what are your thoughts on this issue? Has it changed? Did it change the instant you no longer believed (like for me - I don't believe in God therefore, homosexuality must be perfectly ok)? If not, what caused you to change your thinking?

 

Never really cared much either way (meaning not an activist), though this attitude irritated my then (pro-life) wife. So I had to accompany her to the the crisis pregnancy center where she volunteered so I could watch the grotesque video on late term and partial birth abortion (it has to be wrong if it's gross, right?)....Now that I'm not a Christian anymore I still would advocate for the individual pregnant woman to decide what she wants to do. People tend to find the solution they are looking for even if it's not legal or not medically safe or sanitary. There are plenty of good arguments ranging from anti-contraception to anti-abortion all the way up to anti-death penalty. Abortion just seems to me to be like a good point where someone can still have control over their own body yet not be killing a viable person. My two cents.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

I asked for years to get sterilised and the doctors would always say "but you might change your mind".  They weren't respecting my decision about my body.  A bit like anti-choice people.

 

I don't know about NZ but in the USA, there have been doctors who have been sued successfully by patients who were deemed not mentally sound at the time they made the choice and that was with both male and female sterilization.  

 

Wouldn't a doctor be able to prevent that by ensuring the patient was deemed mentally sound before performing the procedure?  It's very hard to prove someone was mentally unsound at a certain point in the past too isn't it? I mean more than a few months in the past.

[bfuddled]

I have 4 kids and the doctor still tried to talk me out of it when I went to the appointment and asked to schedule getting my tubes tied. It seems counterintuitive, though. Wouldn't the doctor make more money in the long run if the patient decided they wanted a reversal?

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I have 4 kids and the doctor still tried to talk me out of it when I went to the appointment and asked to schedule getting my tubes tied. It seems counterintuitive, though. Wouldn't the doctor make more money in the long run if the patient decided they wanted a reversal?

It's like they think they know better than the patient.  They seem to have an aversion to taking that final step and ruling out further childbearing.  Like the reproductive system has some special power that must be preserved at all costs.  Well, I am more than my ability to reproduce.