directionless Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I just finished reading "Silent Invasion" by Stan Gordon about a wave of Bigfoot sightings in Pennsylvania in 1973. Having personally experienced hallucinations, I am now very skeptical of any reports with single witnesses, however some of these reports had multiple witnesses. Sometimes the witnesses were animals that were in a state of shock after the sightings, and animals don't participate in hoaxes. Of course the author could be distorting some of the reports to make the book more marketable. Anyway... the sightings of Bigfoot have high strangeness. Bigfoot is seen around UFOs. Bigfoot can teleport. Bigfoot can turn into orbs. One witness goes berserk when recounting the experience to the investigators and begins howling and attacking his own dogs. In one particularly disturbing case, Bigfoot apparently kidnaps a cat that was safely inside a locked cage. I have noticed the same high strangeness in traditional UFO reports. They don't make any sense, but sometimes there are multiple witnesses who don't know each other. Sometimes I wonder if I'm being intellectually dishonest to be an atheist. I've seen some crazy stuff in my own life. I had a period after a psychotic breakdown where I can discount my experiences, but I have had other experiences all my life. Anybody know any good forums for discussing Bigfoot and UFOs? Sometimes I find that investigating the details helps me see that the cases are over-hyped. I don't like the CSICOP forum, because they seem to be pompous jerks who dismiss everything without investigation. On the other hand, most forums are swarming with believers who are equally annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 6, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2015 I don't like the CSICOP forum, because they seem to be pompous jerks who dismiss everything without investigation. Without investigation? Seriously? There have been decades and decades of investigation regarding such types of claims. After some time, reasonable people realize that a conclusion has been reached; there is no evidence to support the claims. There comes a point where people such as those who inhabit the CSICOP forum are comfortable ignoring new claims about long debunked phenomena. This attitude is interpreted by believers as a closed mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 If Bigfoot was a real animal then we would find skeletons of them after they die. Besides there are too many people on this planet now. We have pushed all wild animals out of their natural habitat and tword extinction. If Bigfoot were real there would be real conflict as they come down into suburbia looking for food. Bears are real. Encounters with bears on on the rise do to people encroaching into bear habitats. I suspect many Bigfoot "sightings" are actually encounters with bears seen through the filter of belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 I don't like the CSICOP forum, because they seem to be pompous jerks who dismiss everything without investigation.Without investigation? Seriously? There have been decades and decades of investigation regarding such types of claims. After some time, reasonable people realize that a conclusion has been reached; there is no evidence to support the claims. There comes a point where people such as those who inhabit the CSICOP forum are comfortable ignoring new claims about long debunked phenomena. This attitude is interpreted by believers as a closed mind. That's true, but most of the people I met on the CSICOP forum were simply dismissive without having bothered to research at all for themselves. I couldn't quite understand why those people were there, because they didn't seem particularly informed or interested. Some people enjoy being smug and superior, and that is how that group affected me. CSICOP probably has some sincere and dedicated skeptics, but they apparently don't frequent their forum. A good group for UFOs seems to be CUFOS. They are skeptical, but they aren't dismissive. Those are the types of people that I respect more. I have wished that Wikipedia could become a central repository for pro and con evidence on mysterious cases. I have seen mistakes - even in books by responsible ufologists. The problem is that the information is scattered. No website has all the evidence pro and con. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsathoggua Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I'm not a total skeptic, but I would need a lot better evidence -- an actual body -- before I would really believe. It is a fascinating subject, though. People genuinely believe that they have seen Bigfoot, UFOs, ghosts, etc. You can approach the subject as a disinterested observer, an amateur folklorist, and enjoy the tales. Some of the researchers, like John Keel, Jacques Vallee, and Charles Fort came to believe that something is basically just playing / toying with us humans and altering our belief systems as part of a weird ongoing project. Who knows what is going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 If Bigfoot was a real animal then we would find skeletons of them after they die. Besides there are too many people on this planet now. We have pushed all wild animals out of their natural habitat and tword extinction. If Bigfoot were real there would be real conflict as they come down into suburbia looking for food. Bears are real. Encounters with bears on on the rise do to people encroaching into bear habitats. I suspect many Bigfoot "sightings" are actually encounters with bears seen through the filter of belief. If you dig into UFOs (and apparently Bigfoot) the high strangeness is everywhere. The nuts-and-bolts extra terrestrial spaceship theory doesn't match the UFO cases at all. Likewise, the undiscovered ape theory doesn't match the Bigfoot cases either apparently. As I read these accounts, many reports sound like hallucinations, but that doesn't explain the cases when there are multiple witnesses, etc. It wouldn't bother me, except that myself and other family members who I trust to be honest have experienced bizarre things at times. Sometimes I wonder if a bizarre stimulus (seeing an alien or whatever) might trigger psychosis in the witness that gives the high strangeness. All this has made me reconsider my deconversion. It seemed that God has helped me at times, so how can that be if he isn't real? The story about the cat disappearing particularly bothered me, because I want to keep my cat safe. I found myself praying for my cat after I read that story... Silly, but that's how I am I guess But I look at Christianity, and I don't see anything. I really don't have any interest in religion, but sometimes I wonder if I'm wearing blinders - atheist cognitive dissonance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 I'm not a total skeptic, but I would need a lot better evidence -- an actual body -- before I would really believe. It is a fascinating subject, though. People genuinely believe that they have seen Bigfoot, UFOs, ghosts, etc. You can approach the subject as a disinterested observer, an amateur folklorist, and enjoy the tales. Some of the researchers, like John Keel, Jacques Vallee, and Charles Fort came to believe that something is basically just playing / toying with us humans and altering our belief systems as part of a weird ongoing project. Who knows what is going on? I haven't read those authors you mentioned (partly because their ideas are hard for me to follow), but they might be on to something IDK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Also here's a good book.... http://www.amazon.com/The-Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle/dp/0345409469 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 When I was a teen in the 70s, dozens of books about psychic phenonema came out and I ate them up, including books about bigfoot and books by John Keel. Now I realize I was merely contributing to the wealth of clever fiction writers. This stuff HAS been investigated by real researchers and found wanting. I just read a recent article about seven new species of miniature frogs being discovered. If researchers could find these little guys, there should be no problem finding evidence of bigfoots ... IF such existed. P.S. I seriously doubt that the author you quoted actually interviewed any animals who told him why they were "shocked" by bigfoots. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Also here's a good book.... http://www.amazon.com/The-Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle/dp/0345409469 Excellent recommendation! I LOVE that book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 6, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2015 I really don't have any interest in religion, but sometimes I wonder if I'm wearing blinders - atheist cognitive dissonance. The atheists I know, particularly Ex-Christians, have studied, pondered, and thoughtfully come to a conclusion. It is not cognitive dissonance to realize you've searched for evidence of any gods and repeatedly found none. Case closed. If you constantly question your own ability to research and draw a conclusion from the facts, you aren't really in a position to take a stand on anything. An honest atheist is intellectually open to new evidence, but as there has been none since, well, ever, we quite reasonably assume any new study, story, revelation or "eyewitness account" is very likely bullshit just like the thousands that were investigated and dismissed before them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sylensikeelyoo Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Many of us athiests are also skeptics. We dismiss the woo and the crazy conspiracies such as bigfoot and UFOs not because we are closed minded, but because we are rational and only believe in that which can be verified by strong evidence or proof. Granted, there are athiests out there who like that woo stuff, and I'm sure you can find them easily on the internet. In ex-Christian circles, you will find a plethora of skeptics. This is probably because we have been duped our whole lives and we don't wish to be duped again. Skepticism makes more sense to us. Are we cognitively dissonant? I don't think we are. As a skeptic, I like to keep an open mind and I won't discount anything until I've examined the evidence. If you don't bring me any, I will doubt the veracity of your claim until you return with the evidence I asked for. This worldview makes the most sense to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 All this has made me reconsider my deconversion. It seemed that God has helped me at times, so how can that be if he isn't real? The story about the cat disappearing particularly bothered me, because I want to keep my cat safe. I found myself praying for my cat after I read that story... Silly, but that's how I am I guess Don't get the possibility that there is some sort of being that might be thought of as a "god" confused with Christianity. Christianity is based on a specific deity which is described in the Bible in a fairly detailed way. That God is said to be the creator of the universe and yet is the inventor of hell into which he throws people for an eternity of pain and suffering for things so trivial as lusting in one's mind without actually having sex. That God is said to be kind, gentle and loving, but orders genocide that requires the killing of men, women, and children, even babies. That God is said to speak of freedom, but condoned slavery, even giving rules to follow for those who owned slaves. That God is said to be merciful, yet made laws to stone teenagers who were disobedient to their parents and many other innocuous infractions that were said to merit stoning. So unless whatever deity you may be considering exists, unless it has all the attributes of the God of the Bible and you have strong evidence to back up the claim, there is no need to reconsider your de conversion from Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 About 2006 (?) I was opening the door to my apartment when I heard something that sounded like a cooking pot falling on the floor. I looked around the corner into my kitchen, and my cat was hissing at something. I only caught a glimpse, but it seemed to be a miniature baby big foot. Whatever it was dashed off towards my kitchen sink. The cabinet door under my sink was open - and it was really hard to open that door due to decades of sloppy paint jobs. I never opened that door, because there was nothing under the sink except for junk. That happened before I experienced psychosis, so I can't explain it away with psychology. I convinced myself that it was a rat that had somehow come in under my kitchen cabinet, but I've never seen a rat run on its hind legs. Also I couldn't find any holes under my kitchen sink. I know rats are pretty impressive about getting through tight spots, and eyes can play tricks on us. It bothered me especially, because I didn't want a mini bigfoot to be harassing my cat. That cat got cancer on her nose shortly afterwards, so I wonder if that bigfoot gave her cancer. (I know that's silly, but I have these types of paranoid thoughts that won't go away.) That's the world I live in unfortunately. Stuff like that seems to happen to me and sometimes I hear about similar things from family members. Atheism is comforting, but sometimes I think I'm lying to myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 All this has made me reconsider my deconversion. It seemed that God has helped me at times, so how can that be if he isn't real? The story about the cat disappearing particularly bothered me, because I want to keep my cat safe. I found myself praying for my cat after I read that story... Silly, but that's how I am I guess Don't get the possibility that there is some sort of being that might be thought of as a "god" confused with Christianity. Christianity is based on a specific deity which is described in the Bible in a fairly detailed way. That God is said to be the creator of the universe and yet is the inventor of hell into which he throws people for an eternity of pain and suffering for things so trivial as lusting in one's mind without actually having sex. That God is said to be kind, gentle and loving, but orders genocide that requires the killing of men, women, and children, even babies. That God is said to speak of freedom, but condoned slavery, even giving rules to follow for those who owned slaves. That God is said to be merciful, yet made laws to stone teenagers who were disobedient to their parents and many other innocuous infractions that were said to merit stoning. So unless whatever deity you may be considering exists, unless it has all the attributes of the God of the Bible and you have strong evidence to back up the claim, there is no need to reconsider your de conversion from Christianity. I was thinking today: if God is an imaginary friend, then why can't people imagine him to be a little friendlier? I was thinking about Bing Bong from the movie "Inside Out" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 All this has made me reconsider my deconversion. It seemed that God has helped me at times, so how can that be if he isn't real? The story about the cat disappearing particularly bothered me, because I want to keep my cat safe. I found myself praying for my cat after I read that story... Silly, but that's how I am I guess Don't get the possibility that there is some sort of being that might be thought of as a "god" confused with Christianity. Christianity is based on a specific deity which is described in the Bible in a fairly detailed way. That God is said to be the creator of the universe and yet is the inventor of hell into which he throws people for an eternity of pain and suffering for things so trivial as lusting in one's mind without actually having sex. That God is said to be kind, gentle and loving, but orders genocide that requires the killing of men, women, and children, even babies. That God is said to speak of freedom, but condoned slavery, even giving rules to follow for those who owned slaves. That God is said to be merciful, yet made laws to stone teenagers who were disobedient to their parents and many other innocuous infractions that were said to merit stoning.So unless whatever deity you may be considering exists, unless it has all the attributes of the God of the Bible and you have strong evidence to back up the claim, there is no need to reconsider your de conversion from Christianity. I was thinking today: if God is an imaginary friend, then why can't people imagine him to be a little friendlier? I was thinking about Bing Bong from the movie "Inside Out" How an imaginary God might be depicted just might depend on the inventors' purposes for the "deity". For example, if you live in Bronze Age times and have enemies all about you, you might want to invent a God who orders his people to be merciless in war as a deterrent to others who might consider attacking you. If you are the leader of your people and you want them to follow your orders without question, you invent a god who has a priestly class which priestly class declares you to be god's chosen leader and that the people must obey you or they will suffer the wrath of God. You see what I mean? A "God" and accompanying religion serves many political and social purposes and having a nice friendly God may not serve those purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 Anyway, probably I shouldn't have mentioned these thoughts, but sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one who is suspicious that reality is not as it seems. Star Trek had an episode whose title comes to mind "For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 How an imaginary God might be depicted just might depend on the inventors' purposes for the "deity". For example, if you live in Bronze Age times and have enemies all about you, you might want to invent a God who orders his people to be merciless in war as a deterrent to others who might consider attacking you. If you are the leader of your people and you want them to follow your orders without question, you invent a god who has a priestly class which priestly class declares you to be god's chosen leader and that the people must obey you or they will suffer the wrath of God. You see what I mean? A "God" and accompanying religion serves many political and social purposes and having a nice friendly God may not serve those purposes. true. Bing Bong isn't much of a warlord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I've "seen" weird stuff, too. Including a "ghost" of a civil war general who tipped his hat at me and then disappeared while I was in a crowded place in the middle of a sunny afternoon. Haven't seen anything weird in years since I stopped believing in the possibility of ghosts, so I now think the weirdies of the past were projections of my own mind, sort of like dreams or hallucinations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 6, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2015 That happened before I experienced psychosis, so I can't explain it away with psychology. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that bizarre perception you had occurred before psychosis was actually diagnosed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 If Bigfoot was a real animal then we would find skeletons of them after they die. Very true buddy, but they haven't found any bones to prove the exodus story either, yet that story is definitely true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Anyway, probably I shouldn't have mentioned these thoughts, but sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one who is suspicious that reality is not as it seems. Naw, your okay. I have seen some strange things in my life that defy logic. _Cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Since we are bringing up UFOs those are real by definition. Seeing something is an easy skill. A toddler can see something. Accurately identifying what you see is a very difficult skill especially when the observer doesn't have the right background or training. So often objects seen in the sky will not be identified. I saw one myself in the 4th of July. I could rule out a few things that it could not be. It also wasn't a hallucination because everyone at my party saw it. However to assume that it was visitors from another planet would be extremely bizarre and unfounded. My guess is that the unidentified object I saw was a law enforcement drone. That guess has a slight chance of being right unlike the little green men option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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