Trying To Save My Marriage - 1 Year Later

[dichotomy]

Hi insightful, I'm really pleased to see you back and that things have moved on a little.

 

I agree with what OTRR, StephenW and daffodil have said. It sounds as if there are other things going on than just your loss of faith, and whilst her behaviour towards you has been very unfair and difficult, I do think that you need to look at the whole picture and try to work through all those issues. It will mean accepting responsibility and offering forgiveness on both sides. It sounds like neither one of you is more at fault than the other in the overall situation, but it has got to the point where neither of you are getting what you want nor need from the marriage, so I guess the question is do you want to work through all the difficult shit in the hope that you'll come out okay at the end or is that going to be too much for both of you? It's all going to take time, a lot of it, and it may be that you won't be able to be intimate or tell each other you love each other for a long time during this process.

 

My husband and I had a difficult two years (for very different reasons) and I could barely let him touch me at some points. I just couldn't. And I would pull away when he kissed me, and barely uttered the words "I love you" and often replied to his declaration with "no you don't" because I didn't believe he did. We did have sex regularly, because we're both able to detach our emotions from the physicality which I'm not always convinced is great but it is as it is...

 

It was messed up, and tbh we could still do with going to relationship counselling at some point we've just never found the right time. But we *have* got through it and we are in a very different place now. But we had to kind of endure those difficult few years to get to where we are. And it took a lot of soul searching and honesty to open up. And I still struggle feeling safe with him even now, I'm getting better, but it's been hard to allow myself to be vulnerable and put my trust in someone who hurt me. And even if such hurt is justified or not, it is what it is. And I think perhaps that is what you may need to face and accept with your wife. She may be *wrong* for feeling hurt by your loss of faith, but the reality is that she *does* feel hurt.

 

You don't have to accept your relationship as it is and carry on with the way things are, it does sound very hard, but you only have two other options if not. You separate or you make effort for things to improve, and with that I mean both of you, it won't work if it's onesided, so if she really genuinely can't ever accept you as a person without faith then it may be kinder to both of you to accept that your marriage has ended. 

 

I really hope that things do continue to improve, that you can work through the deeper underlying struggles and that you can find a way to get to a place where you both feel loved and valued and wanted and content with each other again. 

[Insightful]

 It sounds as if there are other things going on than just your loss of faith, and whilst her behaviour towards you has been very unfair and difficult, I do think that you need to look at the whole picture and try to work through all those issues. It will mean accepting responsibility and offering forgiveness on both sides.

 

And even if such hurt is justified or not, it is what it is. And I think perhaps that is what you may need to face and accept with your wife. She may be *wrong* for feeling hurt by your loss of faith, but the reality is that she *does* feel hurt.

 

 

Hello Dichotomy,

 

Thank you so much.  There is so much wisdom in what you shared.  I really appreciated that you shared your own marriage struggles with me. 

 

I definitely agree that our issues are deeper than my loss of faith.  The challenge is that so much of what was wrong in our marriage was caused (at least in part) by the Christian worldview.  Having broken free from fundamentalism, I'm now able to treat her much better - I feel like I've grown a lot in being more understanding, treating her with greater respect, and being less judgmental...   But even THAT is another problem.  It frustrates her to no end that I believe that Christianity was at the heart of our problems...  To her it seems like I'm hiding behind that rather than taking responsibility...  But I DO take responsibility for ways that I was wrong (my own selfishness, unrelated to Christianity).  For example, when our girls were little, she would ask me to wake up early with her and help get them  ready for school.  I would say that I would, but then I'd stay up too late and then be too tired and oversleep.  (But even that had Christian influence - since she was a stay  at home mom, i figured the girls were her responsibilty primarily and since I would be at work all day with no chance to nap, I should get to sleep in the morning; my wife could always catch a nap when the girls were in school...).  I apologized to her though and admitted fault in not considering how difficult the girls' behavior issues had been on those mornings (this went on for literally a year so she was right to feel frustrated with me).  But once I admitted fault, I turned it around and started waking up...  I do no deny that I was being lazy and selfish and I have told her this...     Now I spend all of my time outside of work at home with my family, helping with the girls.  I give my wife nights off.  I only schedule meetings with friends after the girls have gone to bed...  I've become much more serving and sacrificial...

 

But now, the loss of faith thing feels like the death blow...  everytime she hears me say anything that expresses my view of the world (humanistic, naturalistic), she is offended and feels more distant from me...  

 

I feel like we're at a point where the total of all of the bad memories she has and bad feelings she's had are creating one big ugly memory of our marriage.  In hindsight, the whole thing looks pretty crappy to her.  so add those crappy memories to the thought of a future with a guy whose worldview is offensive and you get a pretty miserable wife...

 

I agree with you, Dichotomy, right or wrong, she IS hurt and I need to accept that.

 

I do think some hurt is justified (like in the case of the not-waking-up-early-in-the-morning issue).  But a lot of the negative impression of our marriage comes from being a negative/fearful/critical person.  When a person sees their spouse's faults and failings WAY out of proportion to their virtues and contributions then a negative impression will only grow stronger.  

 

It certainly feels irrecoverable.  And I get it - you outlined my choices very clearly:

1) keep living like this (which sucks)

2) make it better (which I just don't think she's able to leave room for)

3) leave (which also sucks given that my daughters mean the world to me)

 

Leaving also feels hard because Ive been SO trained to believe that divorce is the worst thing.  That it breaks God's heart...  That's deeply ingrained in me.

I feel like a failure because I PROMISED for better or for worse.  AND I MEANT IT!  When I thought of "worse", I thought of losing a child or being poor...  I didn't think "worse" would be when things are so bad that there is no more respect, affection, appreciation, affirmation, intimacy. etc.  To me, I feel like in many ways my wife HAS divorced me in terms of what marriage is.  She's just become my roommate now.  She hasn't LEFT in terms of moving do a different location, but she has left emotionally.  So I'm angry because I feel like she has left emotionally (I don't think this is by her choice, it's just where her heart is) and that forces ME to break my vows to her....  but hasn't SHE in effect broken her vows to love/honor/cherish me???   i'm still here - eager to love her, support her., encourage her.  I want her to flourish as a person.  I want her to feel valued and important.  I want her to be validated and understood.  I am IN IT TO WIN IT.  But I can't do that when she says "all of that is great (suporting, validating, etc), but without Christ it's meaningless".  She's telling me my best attempt to be the best husband to her will suck in her eyes compared to what she wanted in a husband. 

 

so what motivation do I have to try?

 

I guess what I'm asking is "Am I JUSTIFIED in leaving?".  Not "should I leave?"  Not "would it be better for me to leave?"  But as someone who has a very strong sense of integrity and meant my marriage vow with every fiber of my being, am I JUSTIFIED in leaving because she has given me no other choice??

[dichotomy]

It's hard, it really is. Christianity gives us right and wrong scenarios. It creates a dualistic world, where there is a "right" way to be, and the "wrong" way to be, with very little room for ambiguity and grey areas. 

 

Our loss of faith takes that away from us. It means we live in a world where morality, life direction and decisions are not set in stone. It's freeing but it can also make big, difficult and emotional decisions even more challenging because there *isn't* a right answer. There isn't an obvious way for you to go here. Essentially you don't need to be justified in leaving, and it's almost impossible to say, because what may feel like a good and strong reason to one person will seem less so to another and so on.

 

I think, perhaps, you should try and take a step back and look at your situation as if it were someone else. If you had a brother or a close friend who was in your situation coming to you for advice, what would you say? What would you think was best for *him*? Or if one of your daughters were in the position that your wife is currently in, what would you want and hope for her. Would you encourage her to stay in such a relationship or would you hope that she left so she could start again elsewhere? 

 

Doing so may not give you any easy answers, but it may help you think about yourself and your wife in a slightly different way.

[CircesSong]

I'm sorry for what you're experiencing. I can relate. I, too, have deconverted and am in a hard-core Calvinist, fundamental marriage. We also adopted out of "we're Christians so we should" mentality and have experienced great sorrow as a result of institutionalized behavior.

 

There is such sadness and almost guilt that results in deconverting in this type of marriage. My husband tells me that I've betrayed him and have a responsibility to remain a devoted, faithful Christian because that was in my vows and expectation as a condition of marrying me. But, like others say, once you see the man behind the curtain, he can't be unseen.

 

I, too, am weighing my options for the future. Divorce in one way would be a logical conclusion, but in many other ways would bring more trouble and heartache.

 

Hoping for you, and me, that things will unfold clearly and all decisions will be obvious.

[RenaissanceWoman]

Deep breath, here goes...

 

I have been completely on your side this whole time, but you said some things in your last update that make me kind of wonder.

 

Staying up late so you can't get up to help with the kids? Seriously, that is a dick thing to do. She specifically asked for your help, you admit it was a stressful time for her, and you kept denying her the help she asked for -- for a year? I would have divorced you after about three weeks.

 

I admit, I had post partum depression, so the early years (and I only have one kid!) were devastatingly overwhelming for me. (I was still working part time, too, because I make significantly more than my husband, so that was the reality. Juggling those two worlds was crazy difficult in my mental health predicament.) If it were not for the constant support of my husband, I would literally be dead. So maybe I am just super sensitive to what you did (or in this case, did not do). Even if she was not suffering like I was, she still had her hands full, and she asked for your help. Dude, I know you say you're sorry now, but damn. A year?!

 

You say that you now give your wife nights off. That's great. However, you also say that you schedule meetings with your friends when the kids are asleep. So that means that your wife has to stay home alone at night while you go out with your friends. You get to be gone all day, interacting with adults, being your own self, while she is home with the kids, and then you also get your nights out with your adult friends too. Once again, you're losing me here.

 

Is your wife educated? I bet that's a great deal, huh? An educated wife will produce educated children. A win for you. But let me tell you, as an educated female myself, there is nothing more mind numbing than child care. I love my daughter and sacrifice big time for what's best for her. Sorry to say, but not all of us women find complete fulfillment in the mother role. I craved nothing more than some adult conversation, some time to think about stuff other than the child's constant needs, some projects to work on that utilized my education and skills.

 

But with your career, you go to work where you are respected by staff and patients, I suspect. You earned that and you deserve that. How does your wife get adult interaction, respect, self-esteem? Yes, I know, motherhood is the greatest job in the world. But sometimes it's lonely, drudgery, mind numbing, frustrating.

 

And interacting with other moms as part of the kids' world, OMG. Not a source of fulfillment. At all. For me, quite the opposite. Just because we have a kid the same age does not mean we have anything else in common. So much fake happiness and bragging about their kids and their husbands and what great moms they are. The worst. And play dates? Just shoot me now. But that's just my experience. Sorry to digress.

 

Wow, I sound like mother of the year here, don't I? Ha ha!

 

I don't want your wife to just have nights off. I want her to have a sense of self. Purpose other than being a mom to your kids. Her own self worth. Large chunks of time to find what makes her feel like a whole adult who did not waste her education.

 

Honestly, I still think you are being a little selfish. You think you are sacrificing, and compared to what you were doing, yes, you are now sacrificing. But your wife sacrifices too. And in some ways, more than you. (I am basing this on my own frustrations with being a mother with a career -- a constant juggling act of energy, guilt, things I am not doing like I should both at home and with work, and on and on.) She could have had a career, but chose to be the mother to your kids, take care of house stuff, build the model christian family for you (and for her). That started out sounding like an excellent plan, but maybe she is tired, or lonely, or frustrated. I'm here to tell you -- women cannot have it all. She is kinda stuck.

 

She probably thought she had everything lined up as best she could: kids, home, church life, wifely duties to her husband -- all a much more precarious balancing act than you might think. Her role was defined and she was filling it. Now you have changed some of the dynamic. I see why she is overwhelmed.

 

I still think that her withholding affection from you is abusive. I would still like to smack her upside the head for that.

 

But I'm wondering if she's thinking... what in the hell more can I do for this man before he is finally happy with life?

 

To all you mothers out there who loooooove being a mom and think it's the greatest honor ever, well... good for you. My experience has been a little less idyllic. I love my daughter and go above and beyond for her, but it's still overwhelming for me.

 

In my not-so-humble opinion, anyone who doesn't think being a parent is overwhelming is just not doing it right. Friends tell me I'm an awesome mom, and maybe I'm just overthinking it, and running myself ragged trying to overcompensate for not feeling like a model mother. Perhaps.

 

Since this is Ex-C, let me add: There's the christian bullshit wife and mother expectation with a perfect little church-going family, and there's the feminist educated career-oriented women-can-have-it-all bullshit. Our generation is stuck in the middle of trying to figure out how to make that work. Personally, I don't think it's workable. It is driving women crazy. But maybe I'm getting off topic.

 

Insightful, I just think you guys needs some serious counseling. There is more hurt and abandonment going on with your wife than just this final straw that broke the camel's back (you leaving the faith).

 

And I still think you need a lawyer, and to get your ducks in a row. Withholding affection pisses me off. She needs to realize that she needs help too, or you guys are going to get nowhere.

 

I said it before and I'll say it again: When I was in high school (self aware enough to see how others live), I was jealous of the kids whose parents were divorced.

 

All that stuff you wrote about "for better or worse," and you meant it, and it's a christian mindset, etc. -- sorry, again I'm calling christian bullshit. If "til death do us part" were real and natural, we wouldn't have a 50% divorce rate. Life is tough, situations change, people evolve as situations change, reality sets in. I think too many people use divorce as the easy way out, but often it is necessary. Honestly, you need to get over that stigma of divorce. Maybe you don't need divorce. If you can make it work, more power to you. That would be great! But you need to look at all options fairly. Don't let this christian marriage nonsense cloud your view of this as an option.

 

Well, I have sufficiently beat up on you, exposed myself as less than mother-of-the-year material, and wavered between taking your wife's side and wanting to smack her upside the head. How's that for a rambling post?

 

I hope you find some tidbits to help with your struggle.

 

Counseling. For both of you. And a lawyer for you, just in case.

[Insightful]

Ha Ha!  I actually love that you covered it all in that post, RenWom =)  Thanks for not holding back.

Seriously, thank you for taking the time to think about my situation and share from your heart.  I'm super-grateful and better for it.

 

So much to respond to.

 

I probably should have given a little more detail about the waking-up-in-the-morning thing.  It was totally wrong of me, but perhaps less egregious as I made it sound (or not!).  I was never like "screw you, the kids are your deal!".  I would agree and then do a better job for a few weeks, then slip back into bad habits.  Still wrong, yes.  Less evil than "screw you and your cries for help!".  Further, this was the stage of life where I thought being a SUPER CHRISTIAN was everything.  Why was I up late?  Well, besides running a company, I also taught new-membership-indoctrination classes, hosted and taught mid-week-home-group (which involved studying each week to teach verse by verse), meeting up with the people in my home-group to "shepherd" them (I still cringe, as though they needed me monkeying around in their affairs helping them see their sin...), launching an orphan care ministry, and leading missions trips.  So I would come home from work, work on my next teaching, email a bunch of people from church about their lives, then be done by 11pm or so and want to chill for an hour or two.  I thought that's what I was supposed to be doing - in my little worldview I was supposed to be pursuing "spiritual leadership" (which I equated with being a bible teaching superstar because that's what my wife had instilled in me while we were dating)...  Regardless, the problem was that I WAY UNDERPRIORITIZED my wife and her pleas for help.  Of course, NOW I would make that my TOP priority.  I would drop out of ministries and tell church people to just chill out.  I would blow off other responsibilities if I needed to in order to make sure SHE was being loved and cared for.   I wasn't setting out to be a dick.  My priorities were all screwed up. 

 

I accept FULL responsibility for that.

 

It goes really deep because my wife always held the Christianity thing over my head from when we were dating.  Whether or not we would date and ultimately marry hinged on whether or not I could grow to be a SOLID SPIRITUAL LEADER.  That has always been her strongest stated need, her one non-negotiable.  Christianity is everything for her.  So I bought into that too - and thought, wrongly, that overcommitting to all of these "Spiritual" pursuits was what a godly husband was supposed to do.  In that mindset, there wasn't room for her to need my help with the kids...  It didn't help that we knew families with 4-8 kids where the mom stayed home and homeschooled all of them and her house was clean and she had it together.  I couldn't fathom how my stay at home wife couldn't manage to get 2 kids ready for school in the morning.  I would agree to help, but because I didn't fully understand (and that is my bad), I wouldn't have the staying power...  and I should've been pulling out of ministries, but I pressed on... 

 

Of course, I see it now.  My 2 are REALLY hard kids.  Love them, but they're some of the more challenging kids I've met.

 

And I was a complete idiot to not trust my wife's assessment of her needs. 

 

As for going out with friends -  I should clarify.  That currently happens about 3-4 times per YEAR.  Pulling out of Christianity has cost me virtually all of my friends.  I'm not free to be myself with them as they are deeply indoctrinated (our old church was CRAZY).  They also all know my wife's brother and I really don't want my in-laws knowing about my agnosticism now.  My point in that was just to give an illustration that I have now come to prioritize my family to the point that I wouldn't even schedule anything - even my haircut - until after they are asleep - so I can be there with her for every waking hour except work...

 

I'm definitely not out painting the town with my buddies.

 

The last 3 times either of us when out alone socially it was her!  And I was glad for it.  She went to a karaoke bar with 3 friends and she even ordered a.... DRINK.  With alcohol in it.  I've been slowly encouraging her to loosen up a bit and she has been receptive =)

 

You are absolutely right though, about how hard it must be for her to be as smart and educated as she is and have to deal with two often infuriating little kids all day.   And I don't think you're a bad mom for saying so!!!

 

Thanks for reminding me to think about it from that angle.  Helps me to by sympathetic and aware of her challenges. 

 

I totally agree that we need to help her have a strong sense of identity.  And that all of these changes must be so hard.

 

Lastly, thanks for being frustrated with me regarding the lack of affection.  I'm beginning to understand that for her it is just really difficult to separate affirming a person from whether or not she agrees with everything they stand for.  According to our therapist, it is likely cultural.  Coming from an Asian background (as she does) there is a big focus on being GOOD at things - being SMART, being ACCOMPLISHED.  So you are not affirmed for just being YOU, you are affirmed for what you accomplish.  If there is something even a little wrong with something (like an A- on a report card), then the whole thing stinks (even though the rest were all A+s).  So I can do many things well - be a great provider, a loving dad, a thoughful husband - but my unbelief is like an F on my report card.  Even if I can get 6 A+s, I've still got an F in "believing husband"....