midniterider

The universe may be conscious.

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So people are able to affect a physical system with their mind only. And at a distance. I like that fact.

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So, are Deists right then?

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I've been saying that consciousness goes beyond our brains for years.

But I would be amazed if anyone manages to produce anything beyond speculative thought on the matter.

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39 minutes ago, Ellinas said:

I've been saying that consciousness goes beyond our brains for years.

But I would be amazed if anyone manages to produce anything beyond speculative thought on the matter.

 

See the video. Direct experimentation with multiple confirmations. Double slit experiment with only a meditating observer, at a distance. Which then turns into a distance on the other side of the globe. All with a direct affect on the experiment, regardless of distance. 

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2 hours ago, Geezer said:

So, are Deists right then?

 

Not actually. A field of consciousness isn't the same as a deity. It's not intelligent nor intentionally designing things. It's just the raw awareness of existence itself. If there were some being outside of this universe that caused this universe to exist, then we'd be looking at something just like us which would have to be something in the way of a manifestation of the underlying field of consciousness, which is what would the absolute in this scenario. It would be like Brahman energy, immanent and transcendent. A deistic god, would be like an incarnation of Brahman, like Vishnu or down to Krishna where advanced god like beings with humanoid characteristic's like thought, are viewed as down stream from that which is consider the absolute, or the god above these lower gods. The lower gods may be above humans, and thought of creators, but always lesser than that which is absolute, formless, and without bounds. 

 

Deism is a type of lower god concept with respect to anything that might be called absolute, like a field of consciousness in this case. 

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The concept is clear on the quantum level. Whether or not that translates to the gross reality we actually live in is another question. So far, nobody's mind power alone has done shit to affect our physical reality, and they've been trying for all of human history.

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Excellent video. I've been far too busy lately to give this consciousness stuff the time I think it deserves, but I'm planning on returning to it shortly. It's fascinating stuff.

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7 hours ago, florduh said:

 So far, nobody's mind power alone has done shit to affect our physical reality, and they've been trying for all of human history.

 

Maybe people have been successfully affecting reality with their mind since forever, but others just shrug it off as BS.

 

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5 hours ago, midniterider said:

Maybe people have been successfully affecting reality with their mind since forever, but others just shrug it off as BS.

Randi still has a million dollars waiting for someone to step up. 😁 We're still waiting for someone to exceed chance in influencing dice rolls in the lab. Still waiting for someone who ostensibly moves small object with their mind to not be debunked. 

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5 hours ago, florduh said:

Randi still has a million dollars waiting for someone to step up. 😁 We're still waiting for someone to exceed chance in influencing dice rolls in the lab. Still waiting for someone who ostensibly moves small object with their mind to not be debunked. 

 

The claims that I've aware of come in subtle forms. I'm sure there's people who claim to move objects with their mind, but that's not where metaphysical attraction ideas go. The latter might be testable, but I'm not sure exactly what would go into that. You'd probably have to list some type of conscious intentions and then begin focus and someone would have to document how many of those came into fruition, and perhaps the time lapses that went into each. It would be worth trying to study through an empirical format, though. It's really a question of how, if at all, the mind having a measurable and falsifiable affect on the double slit experiment might translate into other areas of interest as well. 

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3 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

The claims that I've aware of come in subtle forms.

I'm aware. My problem with all this is the similarity to religion, prayer in particular. Confirmation bias plays into any coincidental success and a fistful of excuses are at the ready when there is failure. Did my will, spirit, intention, The Secret or some sort of quantum magic get me that job, car, house, health? If not, then the Universe must have a better plan for me. I hear this stuff all the time.

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4 hours ago, florduh said:

Randi still has a million dollars waiting for someone to step up. 😁 We're still waiting for someone to exceed chance in influencing dice rolls in the lab. Still waiting for someone who ostensibly moves small object with their mind to not be debunked. 

 

He actually stopped the challenge in 2015 ... but that deal was more of a show than a scientific experiment. What are the odds of a pseudoskeptic handing a million dollars over to a paranormal challenger? Zip. He had also denied some possible threats from signing up over the years.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/film-news/11270453/James-Randi-debunking-the-king-of-the-debunkers.html

 

...

 

Back to ummm, science. :) People may not be able to roll dice with their minds, but Ganzfield studies show substantial psi effects above chance in telepathy and (from other articles i've seen) that data has been available and ever growing since the 1930s.  

https://weilerpsiblog.wordpress.com/evidence-for-psi/

 

Maybe instead of trying to control the outcome of the dice, one could practice figuring out what number is going to come up next? Or trying to figure out what cards the dealer is holding via telepathy? Of course, if you start winning too much money, the casino just throws you out anyway. (I can verify that, I did the throwing out..haha).

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

The claims that I've aware of come in subtle forms. I'm sure there's people who claim to move objects with their mind, but that's not where metaphysical attraction ideas go. The latter might be testable, but I'm not sure exactly what would go into that. You'd probably have to list some type of conscious intentions and then begin focus and someone would have to document how many of those came into fruition, and perhaps the time lapses that went into each. It would be worth trying to study through an empirical format, though. It's really a question of how, if at all, the mind having a measurable and falsifiable affect on the double slit experiment might translate into other areas of interest as well. 

 

Maybe someone could use their mind to flip a 1 to a 0 on a hard drive. Bits are pretty small. Brain synapses are pretty tiny as well. Yet both of these things could have a powerful effect in the macro world.

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11 hours ago, florduh said:

I'm aware. My problem with all this is the similarity to religion, prayer in particular. Confirmation bias plays into any coincidental success and a fistful of excuses are at the ready when there is failure. Did my will, spirit, intention, The Secret or some sort of quantum magic get me that job, car, house, health? If not, then the Universe must have a better plan for me. I hear this stuff all the time.

 

Oh yeah, that is a concern. I don't know how it could be empirically studied and insure no confirmation bias. I was actually looking at the double slit experiment wondering about confirmation bias. Seems legit, and empirical, but it's always good to look closely. 

 

I don't think the metaphysical attraction claims involve a conscious plan by the universe, for people. Not like a god having a plan for us. More like creating a plan for yourself, in your own mind, that then attracts other people and circumstances that are in line with the intention. The only way this would relate to prayer, is by suggesting that people who pray are really only doing this other thing, which never involved a god out there somewhere separate from yourself anyways. 

 

But that's an aside to figuring out the role of consciousness as a fundamental factor. It could just as well turn out that there is a fundamental factor to inherent awareness taking place down to quantum levels, but that may not translate to meaning that these other metaphysical mind ideas are true or even possible. Seems like two separate issues, each that would have to be established on their own accord before accepted as factual. 

 

 

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Regarding my expectation of not getting beyond speculation, I rest my case.  Until the confirmation bias can be excluded, and there is some agreement of what we're looking for, the only people anyone will convince, one way or the other, are themselves.

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7 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Maybe someone could use their mind to flip a 1 to a 0 on a hard drive. Bits are pretty small. Brain synapses are pretty tiny as well. Yet both of these things could have a powerful effect in the macro world.

 

I'm all for trying to empirically test things like this. Especially after the double slit experiment claim.

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2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

I'm all for trying to empirically test things like this. Especially after the double slit experiment claim.

 

Yeah, Florduh's probably correct though. This stuff either doesn't perform at a macro level or we're unable to measure it's effect. It would be interesting to see more tests like this.

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On 5/23/2018 at 11:24 PM, midniterider said:

 

Yeah, Florduh's probably correct though. This stuff either doesn't perform at a macro level or we're unable to measure it's effect. It would be interesting to see more tests like this.

 

I get the feeling that more of this will be tested and proposed over time. Especially with Conscious Realism proposing a falsifiable theory of consciousness (TOC) to utilize in trying to explain these kind of results. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

He actually stopped the challenge in 2015 ... but that deal was more of a show than a scientific experiment. What are the odds of a pseudoskeptic handing a million dollars over to a paranormal challenger? Zip. He had also denied some possible threats from signing up over the years.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/film-news/11270453/James-Randi-debunking-the-king-of-the-debunkers.html

 

...

 

Back to ummm, science. :) People may not be able to roll dice with their minds, but Ganzfield studies show substantial psi effects above chance in telepathy and (from other articles i've seen) that data has been available and ever growing since the 1930s.  

https://weilerpsiblog.wordpress.com/evidence-for-psi/

 

Maybe instead of trying to control the outcome of the dice, one could practice figuring out what number is going to come up next? Or trying to figure out what cards the dealer is holding via telepathy? Of course, if you start winning too much money, the casino just throws you out anyway. (I can verify that, I did the throwing out..haha).

 

 

 

 

Interesting about Randi. Pretty shady. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Interesting about Randi. Pretty shady. 

 

 

I don't think he has as much integrity as people give him credit for. If your loyal fans (aka source of income) are deniers of the paranormal ... then aint nobody gonna be winning that prize (imo). :) 

 

 

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On 5/24/2018 at 12:13 AM, midniterider said:

 

I don't think he has as much integrity as people give him credit for. If your loyal fans (aka source of income) are deniers of the paranormal ... then aint nobody gonna be winning that prize (imo). :) 

 

 

 

Yeah, healthy skepticism is always good. But maybe skepticism can become unhealthy at some point, too. That would be a good discussion in and of itself. 

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2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Yeah, healthy skepticism is always good. But maybe skepticism can become unhealthy at some point, too. That would be a good discussion in and of itself. 

 

True.

 

Digressing a bit, I'm reading Dean Radin's book Real Magic at the moment. 'The Conscious Universe' was out of stock at the bookstore. Fairly easy read so far.

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18 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

True.

 

Digressing a bit, I'm reading Dean Radin's book Real Magic at the moment. 'The Conscious Universe' was out of stock at the bookstore. Fairly easy read so far.

 

So do you think there's a connection between the round about idea of a conscious universe and the practice of magic? If magic were possible I would think that it would somehow have to trace back to issues of consciousness, as opposed to ordering literal supernatural entities to carry out some order or request. The person doing a ritual, for instance, is focusing on something. The sacrificing of animals and other fluff seems more a tool for a type of mental focus and direction that anything else. And the focused mind is then the bigger issue in an act of magical practice, from this view, instead of spooky supernatural forces. 

 

I say this because I have an Aunt near Cassadega who runs with the mystics and fortune tellers over there. She's a witch, basically. And a guy that I surf with got caught up into Santeria for while. So I've spent some time focusing on what I thought they were doing. It's easy to just dismiss the whole thing outright. But for the sake of argument, and in the event that the Randi style skeptics are actually wrong, then where does that leave us? 

 

I think the consciousness explanation ought to be at least kept on the back burner as a way of trying to logically explain things like magic and any mystical acts, in the event that these acts are shown to be really happening. 

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