Agnostic Pagans And Athiest Pagans

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

Let's see how many people I can tick off. This is the Lion's Den after all.

 

Didn't piss me off. My beliefs don't require your approval, nor does my status as a "true pagan".

 

 

That's great! I didn't want to piss anyone off, but I figured it would anyway. True pagan? The same could be said for fundies and muslim extremists. They don't feel they require anyones approval. I don't want to approve your beliefs or disprove your beliefs, they are yours and not mine. Personal experience is personal. I can't say you are not a true pagan since you don't state what your beliefs are, but as long as they are the worship of something then you are a pagan. If not, then you are not a pagan in the classic sense of the word but perhaps a pagan in the "New Age" sense of the word which is quite different from the original usage. It's almost Pop Culture.

 

I'm aware that the same arguments used against the christian god (If it created everything, what created it?) also apply to the universal energy. I have no answer. I just believe that it's there, even though I don't fully understand it.

 

Ignorance is the mother of all religions, and those who admit their own ignorance are wiser than most. Those who do not admit their ignorance are the breeders of intolerance and hate. I don't have all the answers either; we are here because the system works well enough. Knowing how we got here doesn't concern me. When I tell people, usually only when asked, that I am an atheist, usually the first question out of their mouth is "Well, how do think we got here?" My typical answer is that I don't know and that finding out is not high on my priority list. I'm here and I'll make the best of it. I follow my own moral code just like everyone else. People are not nice or mean to people because a book tells them to be, they are nice or mean because there is something in it for them.

 

If there is the Christian god at the end who is going to judge the way I handled my life, what I believed in, or not, he will know that I never claimed to be something I was not. Heaven or Hell is his choice, not mine regardless of what I label myself with. The same goes for those who label themselves Christian, that god will know what they have claimed and if their actions fit their claim. That god will know the true path to heaven or hell because he built them and if the self labeled Christians were on that path or not regardless if they thought of themselves as the most devout people on earth. Belief is one thing, and probably the smallest part of it, actions speak louder than words, and thoughts and motives are the true paths to heaven and hell, real, religious, or personal.

 

We will be judged or we will not. I doubt that I'm an atheist most of the time and just prefer to be anti-religion. I don't know for sure what's out there, if we were created, accident, or just the sum of our parts, chemistry and physics. I prefer the chemistry and physics because that is what can be observed. But I will or will not be judged on my own merits and prefer to stand on my own two feet. I walk my own path. Greygirl, continue walking your own path. I might disagree or agree with what you call yourself in the literal sense of the word used but I will not judge you for it, it's not in my job description.

[Shadoe]

You know, you've just stated that magic equation that seems so elusive for people to wrap their minds around: Most people who practice a religion are not literalists.

Exactly. It's the need to take religion literally is what makes it so preposterous.

[Shadoe]

Paganism isn't any non-Christian, it is any worship of a diety (in any form) other than the Christian God, Atheists cannot be Pagan. Paganism requires worship of something other than the Christian God. An Agnostic Pagan/Pagan Agnostic is like watching the TV while it's unplugged. Your worshipping something that is unknowable, therefore you have no idea what you are worshipping.

According to a lot of Christians these days, even Atheists are worshipping somebody(thing, whatever), so they're "pagans." Of course, they tend to be a little strange.

 

The modern use of "pagan" refers to the neo-pagan religions like Wicca, Asatru, etc. And most of those do not require "worship" of anything at all. They tend to frown on that kind of self-abasement.

 

Then they are just labeling themselves as Pagan, but are not true Pagans unless they worship something.

Not so. One can follow the concept the mythological deity represents without worshipping that concept or the myth. It is entirely possible to follow pagan religions without believing in some kind of invisible sky god. Like Taoism, it doesn't require belief or worship.

 

Paganism is a religion, it has to figure in.

Paganism: It's not your granddad's religion.

 

Paganism includes Hinduism, Shintoism, Shamanism, Wicca, Celtic, Norse, Greek, Roman, Scientology, and a host of others.

The modern use of the term doesn't include Hinduism, Shintoism, Scientology, and a host of others. The Norse religions often refer to themselves as Heathens - another term originally used by Christians to insult those of other religions which has been adopted as a descriptive term.

[Ouroboros]

But I think the original meaning of Pagan (like you said) was all religions other than Christians. Labeled so by the early Christian Church. Now, there could be atheists mixed into that group as well. If Pagan only means Non-Christian, then Atheists are by that definition Pagan.

 

Paganism isn't any non-Christian, it is any worship of a diety (in any form) other than the Christian God, Atheists cannot be Pagan. Paganism requires worship of something other than the Christian God. An Agnostic Pagan/Pagan Agnostic is like watching the TV while it's unplugged. Your worshipping something that is unknowable, therefore you have no idea what you are worshipping.

I don't agree completely. Pagan was just a word meaning "rural", "rustic", "country dweller" etc. And mostly it was, and is, used to describe religions that are non-christian, but you do see definitions of "pagan" in the sense of non-believer, non-religious and even atheism in many dictionaries.

[Lycorth]

I agree with Han; Paganism doesn't require worship. There are many strains of belief, and there are many Pagans who don't worship their Gods and consider them only metaphors. Paganism only requires acceptance of pre-xian traditions, no matter how you base your own beliefs off them.

 

That is why an Atheist of an Agnostic (or a Deist ) can also be a Pagan; acceptance of Heathen spiritual and cultural traditions yet choosing to define one's Gods according to their freethinking philosophies.

[Antlerman]

Let's see how many people I can tick off. This is the Lion's Den after all.

 

I could choose to totally immerse myself in the mythology of Paul Bunyan, wearing plaid shirts with suspenders, big boots, have a blue ox statue and everything; totally celebrate the mythology as a culture of sorts, a way to become one with the Great North Woods and the early pioneers of Minnesota. That doesn't necessary mean I would argue that the big fella' actually lived and that the Mississippi River was formed from his axe dragging behind him! Yet he really lives as a symbol of a culture.

 

That's not religion, that's culture.

If you invent rituals, teachings, practices, and disciplines surrounding the mythology, and use them as a means to a higher plane of awareness, such as being one with essense of the pine tree, then it becomes a religion. If every Sunday morning we prepare flapjacks and raise them in honor of Paul Bunyan then tells stories of the hero of a cult, it's a religious ritual, which becomes a part of defining someone's culture. Cultures use mythologies and religions to define themselves.

 

Do you accept that you can have a purely atheistic religion, such as Theravada Buddhism? If so, what qualifies it as a religion? If not, are you limiting what defines religion to include the worship of deities? How many Christians have you met that would say that don't really believe the stories were factually true, but still consider themselves Christian?

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

Let's see how many people I can tick off. This is the Lion's Den after all.

 

I could choose to totally immerse myself in the mythology of Paul Bunyan, wearing plaid shirts with suspenders, big boots, have a blue ox statue and everything; totally celebrate the mythology as a culture of sorts, a way to become one with the Great North Woods and the early pioneers of Minnesota. That doesn't necessary mean I would argue that the big fella' actually lived and that the Mississippi River was formed from his axe dragging behind him! Yet he really lives as a symbol of a culture.

 

That's not religion, that's culture.

If you invent rituals, teachings, practices, and disciplines surrounding the mythology, and use them as a means to a higher plane of awareness, such as being one with essense of the pine tree, then it becomes a religion. If every Sunday morning we prepare flapjacks and raise them in honor of Paul Bunyan then tells stories of the hero of a cult, it's a religious ritual, which becomes a part of defining someone's culture. Cultures use mythologies and religions to define themselves.

 

Do you accept that you can have a purely atheistic religion, such as Theravada Buddhism? If so, what qualifies it as a religion? If not, are you limiting what defines religion to include the worship of deities? How many Christians have you met that would say that don't really believe the stories were factually true, but still consider themselves Christian?

 

Now you are making more sense than your previous post. I only accept that you can have an atheistic religion in the sense of religion as being following a spiritual leader, a human who does not claim divinity for himself. What people are claiming as paganism violates the definition of paganism, even Neopaganism. Most of it is spiritualism, not paganism.

 

 

I don't agree completely. Pagan was just a word meaning "rural", "rustic", "country dweller" etc. And mostly it was, and is, used to describe religions that are non-christian, but you do see definitions of "pagan" in the sense of non-believer, non-religious and even atheism in many dictionaries.

 

It was just a word in the sense that "hillbilly" and "redneck" are just a word. It is the context in which it was used, not just the Latin interpretation. It was a word used for the un-enlightened, the un-educated backwards people who worshipped dieties like Greek, Norse, and Roman pantheons. They were people who needed to be evangelized by early Christians . Over time people erred by adopting the word to be anyone non-christian, including atheists who do not practice religion and now it seems to be divided into Pagan as a label and Pagan Religion as a system of beliefs. Why anyone would adopt it for themselves when it was used to belittle cultures not there own is beyond me. To each his own.

 

According to a lot of Christians these days, even Atheists are worshipping somebody(thing, whatever), so they're "pagans." Of course, they tend to be a little strange.

 

Amen to that. But of course I think that literal belief in the Bible, praying to a cross, and asking angels for advice is idolotry in the Christian sense of the word so perhaps I'm a little strange too.

 

If you put your beliefs on public display it is for the intention of having them questioned.

[Ouroboros]

I don't agree completely. Pagan was just a word meaning "rural", "rustic", "country dweller" etc. And mostly it was, and is, used to describe religions that are non-christian, but you do see definitions of "pagan" in the sense of non-believer, non-religious and even atheism in many dictionaries.

 

It was just a word in the sense that "hillbilly" and "redneck" are just a word. It is the context in which it was used, not just the Latin interpretation. It was a word used for the un-enlightened, the un-educated backwards people who worshipped dieties like Greek, Norse, and Roman pantheons. They were people who needed to be evangelized by early Christians . Over time people erred by adopting the word to be anyone non-christian, including atheists who do not practice religion and now it seems to be divided into Pagan as a label and Pagan Religion as a system of beliefs. Why anyone would adopt it for themselves when it was used to belittle cultures not there own is beyond me. To each his own.

Nah, it wasn't my purpose to adopt the word, just a mere reflection how the word was and also now (sometimes) is used. And I only based it on the dictionaries I looked into. They, of course, say Pagan are religions of non-Christian status, but they also have definitions included like: "non religious", "irreligious" and "atheism". And if the dictionary defines it as such, doesn't it means it is a common and contemporary way of using it? If you want to use it solely and explicitly for a certain group of religious, go right ahead, because I rather do it that way too, but the word does have more connotations than that.

 

According to a lot of Christians these days, even Atheists are worshipping somebody(thing, whatever), so they're "pagans." Of course, they tend to be a little strange.

 

Amen to that. But of course I think that literal belief in the Bible, praying to a cross, and asking angels for advice is idolotry in the Christian sense of the word so perhaps I'm a little strange too.

It's funny that Christians want to make atheism and evolution to religions and dogma, while they on the other hand claim that Christianity is not a religioun but a relationship. Black is white, and white is black... The ultimate orwellian mind set.

 

If you put your beliefs on public display it is for the intention of having them questioned.

True.

[willybilly30]

I don't agree completely. Pagan was just a word meaning "rural", "rustic", "country dweller" etc. And mostly it was, and is, used to describe religions that are non-christian, but you do see definitions of "pagan" in the sense of non-believer, non-religious and even atheism in many dictionaries.

 

one problem i have with dictionaries is when it uses words like pagan or witch it makes them look more like insults than anything having to do with supernatural or religion. websters dictionary says a witch can mean people who believe in magic or mean ugly woman and if you look up pagan it says a person who does not acknowlede god. below for paganism it says: it it says worship of false gods.

oviously websters dictionary was written by christians and by their view point.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

"Having descended from God's throne of supreme authority, the Merriam folks are now seated around the city desk, recording like mad."

[willybilly30]

is vtheir any dictionarys that isnt so christian influenced? i notice alot of things are christian influenced or they stick something from christianity in it. this irritates me sometimes.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

is vtheir any dictionarys that isnt so christian influenced? i notice alot of things are christian influenced or they stick something from christianity in it. this irritates me sometimes.

 

None that I have found, Witchcraft in the Oxford Dictionary says that it is "evil magical powers."

[greygirl]

Thank you, Zoe Grace, for saying what I've been keeping quiet on because I couldn't figure out how to articulate it without ripping heads off.

[greygirl]

Thank you, Zoe Grace, for saying what I've been keeping quiet on because I couldn't figure out how to articulate it without ripping heads off.

 

 

heh. you're welcome. Hey, do you bellydance? (your icon looks bellydancery) If so, I just got this new CD, Arabic Groove, OMG if you don't have it you HAVE to get it. It is totally rocking my world right now.

 

Yes, yes I do! Those are my boobs, in the coin bra I made with my own two hands. I'll definitely have to see if I can track that down. I always need more music.

[willybilly30]

i was looking at other threads on paganism here and seen a forum mentioned called the pagan unity forum i clicked the link but it dont go anywere. is their a new address or something?

[Taphophilia]

is vtheir any dictionarys that isnt so christian influenced? i notice alot of things are christian influenced or they stick something from christianity in it. this irritates me sometimes.

 

The Johnson dictionary isn't that bad. The problem with Webster's and Worcester's is that the men who compiled the dictionaries that bear their names were Calvinist religious freaks.

 

What Christians say about Webster's dictionary

 

They use the 1828 dictionary. Don't you think words might have changed meaning since then?

[willybilly30]

i didnt know all that. im looking for another dictionary.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

is vtheir any dictionarys that isnt so christian influenced? i notice alot of things are christian influenced or they stick something from christianity in it. this irritates me sometimes.

 

The Johnson dictionary isn't that bad. The problem with Webster's and Worcester's is that the men who compiled the dictionaries that bear their names were Calvinist religious freaks.

 

What Christians say about Webster's dictionary

 

They use the 1828 dictionary. Don't you think words might have changed meaning since then?

[Asimov]

Just an interesting note...if you don't worship or believe in any God or gods...then why call yourself a pagan?

 

Just from looking up the word, it appears to be pretty much a blanket term for all non-abrahamic religions and beliefs, used in an almost derogatory way by Christians and the like.

 

Isn't that kinda like black people calling themselves nigger?

[Shadoe]

Just an interesting note...if you don't worship or believe in any God or gods...then why call yourself a pagan?

Because one doesn't need to worship or believe in any God or gods to be a Pagan.

 

Just from looking up the word, it appears to be pretty much a blanket term for all non-abrahamic religions and beliefs, used in an almost derogatory way by Christians and the like.

The original meaning of the word was pretty much a blanket term for all non-abrahamic religions. The meaning of the word has changed, and now pretty much refers to all of the earth-based relgions (Wicca, Shamanism, Druids, Asatru, etc.).

 

Isn't that kinda like black people calling themselves nigger?

Maybe if they started doing that, in a couple hundred years, the word wouldn't have the same meaning as it does now. This is what Pagans have done.

[greygirl]

Just an interesting note...if you don't worship or believe in any God or gods...then why call yourself a pagan?

 

Just from looking up the word, it appears to be pretty much a blanket term for all non-abrahamic religions and beliefs, used in an almost derogatory way by Christians and the like.

 

Isn't that kinda like black people calling themselves nigger?

 

I think "liberal" is a better analogy. There are plenty of people who throw around "liberal" as an insult. To those of us who are liberals, it's not, but they still like to pretend it is. Christians calling all non-Christians pagan is pretty much the same thing. They may intend it as an insult, but it's still what we call ourselves, and we see it as a positive, or at least neutral, term.

 

I call myself a pagan because I practice paganism, which doesn't require worship or belief in gods.

[Lycorth]

Indeed... "Pagan" and "Heathen" were coined by Xians, but because no terms for one's religious beliefs existed before Xianity came to Europe. At best, a people's religious customs were just referred to that, as "customs". Those terms are only insulting to a Xian, not to a non-xian, and they never were used on the same scale nor in the same fashion as the word "nigger."

 

The level of insult just is not there - even to rabid Xians, it more of a religious classification, not a swear-word.

[Lycorth]

Can't help but egg on the hijack by declaring my love of traditional Arabic music and appreciation for bellydancers

[Amethyst]

I could choose to totally immerse myself in the mythology of Paul Bunyan, wearing plaid shirts with suspenders, big boots, have a blue ox statue and everything; totally celebrate the mythology as a culture of sorts, a way to become one with the Great North Woods and the early pioneers of Minnesota. That doesn't necessary mean I would argue that the big fella' actually lived and that the Mississippi River was formed from his axe dragging behind him! Yet he really lives as a symbol of a culture.

 

 

And yet, nobody in MN literally believes in Paul Bunyan or prays to him. (At least, nobody I've met so far, and I've lived in MN all my life.) But most people in MN are Christian, and there are quite a few fundies here.

 

I tried being Pagan for a while. At first, I attempted to incorporate it into my Christian beliefs (that's really not so unusual as you might think, there are quite a few websites on Christopaganism). Then I found that I could not believe in the Christian stuff anymore. Then I tried just being a neopagan for a while, but I couldn't really believe in that either. However, my brief stint with Paganism helped me figure out what I didn't believe in.

[Amethyst]

 

Yes, we're both on the same page. (Literally, heh, I saw your name down there.)

 

I can understand the belly dance being your church. Writing is mine. Heck, I find that more meaningful than church ever was. I meditate every now and then, but that's as ritualistic as I get these days.

[willybilly30]

i was looking at other threads on paganism here and seen a forum mentioned called the pagan unity forum i clicked the link but it dont go anywere. is their a new address or something?