Agnostic Pagans And Athiest Pagans

[Amethyst]

i was looking at other threads on paganism here and seen a forum mentioned called the pagan unity forum i clicked the link but it dont go anywere. is their a new address or something?

 

Try Google.

[willybilly30]

i would send a messge to son of belial but he hasnt been active in so long i wonder if he comes here anymore. i could try it and see. it was him that mentioned the pagan unity forum

 

 

 

 

 

i was looking at other threads on paganism here and seen a forum mentioned called the pagan unity forum i clicked the link but it dont go anywere. is their a new address or something?

 

Try Google.

[Asimov]

The original meaning of the word was pretty much a blanket term for all non-abrahamic religions. The meaning of the word has changed, and now pretty much refers to all of the earth-based relgions (Wicca, Shamanism, Druids, Asatru, etc.).

 

Don't those focus on worship?

[greygirl]

You can find Arabic Groove on Amazon.com it's got an orangey cover. For some reason song number 5 is just rocking my world. And I can't believe you MADE that coin bra. That rocks. Do you perform with a troupe/by yourself/or just take classes etc.

 

I just moved up to the intermediate class, and eventually want to perform with the local troupe.

 

but anyway, didn't mean to hijack this thread, i'm just totally in a bellydance place right now. heh.

 

Well, when I say I *made* it, what I mean is that I took a Wonderbra, cut off the straps, put on new straps, and then sewed a bunch of stuff onto it. It's actually a lot easier than it looks.

 

I'm currently dancing with a troupe called Dragomi (Urban Tribal, we dance to more Rob Zombie and NiN than traditional Arabic music), but I'm moving to Oregon in about 6 weeks, and I'll have to find a new teacher/troupe when I get up there. For performance, though, I really prefer solo. I suck at learning choreography. 90% of my dance is improv, and I like being able to just pick music I know well and just get up on stage and go.

 

Performing is the greatest thing in the world. I bet you'll love it. The funny thing is that I started dancing, in part, to try to lessen my crippling stage fright. Now, I love being on stage.

[willybilly30]

i think thats were im at. like you said about some pagans starting out as literistic and worshipping and stuff. i dont see it as nessessary as i used too. some pagans i talked to in the past say you got to a daily ritual, prayers and stuff like that and this bugs me sometimes this have too do this have to do that crap. the creator never told me i had to do anything till it does im not going to worry about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The original meaning of the word was pretty much a blanket term for all non-abrahamic religions. The meaning of the word has changed, and now pretty much refers to all of the earth-based relgions (Wicca, Shamanism, Druids, Asatru, etc.).

 

Don't those focus on worship?

 

some wiccans "worship" but a good deal of druids, shamans and asatru followers do not. And those were just religions off the top of that individual's head. There are many more. But within each branch I would say there are some literalistic but more nonliteralistic followers. It seems like pagans very often start out pretty literalistic (in this country at least it's likely due to the religious culture) and slowly get to a less literalistic place.

 

But most pagans, whether they believe in the gods literally or not, do not consider themselves to be "worshippers" As a large majority of pagans agree that the concept of "worship" or debasing yourself to a "higher being" or "praising" a higher being is beneath human dignity. Not that there are not pagans who are in this category, but modern paganism again is quite different in most cases from the "old religions"

[greygirl]

But most pagans, whether they believe in the gods literally or not, do not consider themselves to be "worshippers" As a large majority of pagans agree that the concept of "worship" or debasing yourself to a "higher being" or "praising" a higher being is beneath human dignity. Not that there are not pagans who are in this category, but modern paganism again is quite different in most cases from the "old religions"

 

Agreed. Among the pagans I know who do view the deities as literal beings, most treat them more as mentors with wisdom to impart than anything like the Christian idea of god. I can't think of a single pagan I've ever met who worshipped in anything like the "I'm a worthless piece of trash and need my deity to help me be anything more than a disgusting worm." sense that many of us became familiar with as Christians.

 

I do kind of a tribal fushion...probably one rung more traditional than what you do. We dance to a lot of funky stuff and things with a techno undercurrent, but there's always a layer of arabic/middle eastern music in there with it. I wouldn't be opposed to the ocassional dancing to other stuff, but for me at least I feel like arabic music should be a feature.

 

I grew up dancing (ballet and jazz) so I'm more comfortable dancing with a group. I'm also more comfortable with choreography than improv. With improv I have this horrible sensation of "OMG what if I just can't think of anything and keep doing the same thing over and over." With choreography I know what I'm doing and where I'm going with it.

 

I'm not opposed to doing improv if it's group improv where there's a leader and everyone else follows.

 

They offer both improv and choreography classes at my studio, so maybe I'll take one of those in addition to my regular technique class.

 

Cool! I started out with tribal fusion, then spent about 18 months with the Kashmir Dance Company doing 100% American Tribal Style. I've only been with Dragomi for a few weeks, and I'll only be able to perform with them a couple of times before I leave for Oregon. So far, I haven no idea who I'll join up with in OR. There's a big dance community up there, though, so I think I'll have a lot of options.

[Asimov]

some wiccans "worship" but a good deal of druids, shamans and asatru followers do not. And those were just religions off the top of that individual's head. There are many more. But within each branch I would say there are some literalistic but more nonliteralistic followers. It seems like pagans very often start out pretty literalistic (in this country at least it's likely due to the religious culture) and slowly get to a less literalistic place.

 

But most pagans, whether they believe in the gods literally or not, do not consider themselves to be "worshippers" As a large majority of pagans agree that the concept of "worship" or debasing yourself to a "higher being" or "praising" a higher being is beneath human dignity. Not that there are not pagans who are in this category, but modern paganism again is quite different in most cases from the "old religions"

 

Worship can be like adoration, devotion, or high-esteem towards something or like honor and love towards a deity.

 

I don't see how that is "debasing oneself".

 

Anyways, what's the point of calling oneself a druid, shaman, asatru, wiccan?

 

Based on the definitions for religion, it appears as if it is necessary for a supernatural power to be involved and believed in. As far as I know, those religions you cited do not have specific spiritual leaders.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

I gave up, they can call themselves purple if they want even if they are not.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

I dated a Wiccan once, but your right, I can't name all of the religions that fall under the pagan umbrella just like you can't name all the denominations that fall under the Christian umbrella. I fail to see the logic in that since you debate with Christians over their beliefs, don't you?

 

I agree that you are a pagan in the sense that it is relative to a parameter not explicitly mentioned in the historical definition itself and that since this definition corresponds to a culture there is no objective truth or falsity independent of the person making the judgement.

 

Is that a graceful enough concession? And I don't think you're being a bitch about it, I enjoy your replies and think they are quite civilized compared to what a fundy would be saying. They become quite beligerant and fail to turn the other cheek.

[willybilly30]

why do athiests care so much about people with beliefs?

it seems like everyone who mentions the believe in anything gets an athiest stampede.

we are not christians quit feeling threatened athiests.

[Amethyst]

Well, to answer Willy's original question, Wikipedia is a good place to start.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

why do athiests care so much about people with beliefs?

it seems like everyone who mentions the believe in anything gets an athiest stampede.

we are not christians quit feeling threatened athiests.

 

The only reason I like to is because of the way things are here in the US, where religion is being thrown in our faces everywhere we turn. Lawsuits, church and state separation, rights of those not religous being stomped on, etc. So if I feel threatened by beliefs it is because I am. Are you aware that here in my state I can't run for public office because I do not believe in god?

 

Sec. 2. No atheist shall hold a civil office.--No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State.

 

Tennessee is not the only one, there are about 6 states with that in their constitution. Now give me a reason not to feel threatened.

 

I guess the reason that Muslims freak me out and threaten me is because of 9/11.

Hindu's freak me out because of the treatment that people recieve in their caste system.

Pagans freak me out because it is pop culture and everyone that I had met were usually outcasts for some reason or another before taking up paganism and seem to be trying to fulfill a step on Maslow's Hierachy of Needs that they couldn't seem to get elsewhere. Not saying that all are Amythest, just the ones I have met.

Scientologists freak me out because...well, they are freaks. They are worse than Mormons and other wacko cults.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

Disqualifications

Article XI lists three groups of people who are barred from various privileges:

 

Ministers of any religion many not sit as legislators because they "ought not be diverted from the great duties of their functions." (Section 1)

 

Atheists may not perform any office in the government (Although

 

Section 4 of Article I, banning any religious test for any "office of public trust" seemingly would make this hard to enforce) (Section 2)

 

Anyone having anything to do with a duel may not hold any "honor or profit" under the state's government and is liable to be punished otherwise (Section 3)

 

It should be noted that the restrictions on minsters and atheists have been deemed to be unenforcable due to the interpretations of the Supreme Court of the United States with regard to the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.

[willybilly30]

i didn't know about the laws against athiests that is wrong. so basicly you are saying ever religion has people who bad things and it freaks you out. i cant help what they do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

why do athiests care so much about people with beliefs?

it seems like everyone who mentions the believe in anything gets an athiest stampede.

we are not christians quit feeling threatened athiests.

 

The only reason I like to is because of the way things are here in the US, where religion is being thrown in our faces everywhere we turn. Lawsuits, church and state separation, rights of those not religous being stomped on, etc. So if I feel threatened by beliefs it is because I am. Are you aware that here in my state I can't run for public office because I do not believe in god?

 

Sec. 2. No atheist shall hold a civil office.--No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State.

 

Tennessee is not the only one, there are about 6 states with that in their constitution. Now give me a reason not to feel threatened.

 

I guess the reason that Muslims freak me out and threaten me is because of 9/11.

Hindu's freak me out because of the treatment that people recieve in their caste system.

Pagans freak me out because it is pop culture and everyone that I had met were usually outcasts for some reason or another before taking up paganism and seem to be trying to fulfill a step on Maslow's Hierachy of Needs that they couldn't seem to get elsewhere. Not saying that all are Amythest, just the ones I have met.

Scientologists freak me out because...well, they are freaks. They are worse than Mormons and other wacko cults.

[Asimov]

People have various reasons for creating spiritual groups that they then refer to as religions. Some religions don't have a spiritual leader specifically, some religions don't have gods (or else don't believe they are literal beings), some religions, as in the case of pagan religions, can in some cases have neither.

 

I know this, but you're not answering my question...

 

A religion is essentially the central grouping of a number of people who share the same specific belief regarding a supernatural governing of the universe and the creation of said universe.

 

Natural is that which results from the forces of nature and the laws of physics.

 

Wiccan is a specific belief.

Druids share a specific belief.

Christians share a specific belief.

 

Clearly wiccans believe in something that sets them apart from other belief systems.

 

What exactly is it meant when one says they believe in a literal god as opposed to a non-literal god? What's a non-literal god? What's a literal god?

 

If Wiccan and Druidism and Asatru worship gods or a god, then it is a theistic religion, literal or not.

If they don't, then it is a nontheistic religion.

 

I think what is going on here is we have several different "types" of religions out there. We have nontheistic religions and monotheistic/polytheistic religions, and then we have pagan religions. What I think might be happening here is people wanting to fit the pagan religions into one of the other two categories, when pagan religions fit neither. Nontheistic religions are just that...nontheistic. Monotheistic or polytheistic religions fit the same profile they are religions classified by their belief in and worship of deities, they are very specific on these matters. Pagan religions are more eclectic.

 

Well you're not defining what a pagan religion is then. If you are part of a group of people who worship a deity, you are a theistic religion. If you are part of a group of people who don't worship a deity, then you are a nontheistic religion.

 

What is a pagan religion? Negative attributes a definition does not make.

 

The point with paganism is, it's very wide and varied and one cannot just lump them all into one category and say: "Well if you don't believe in literal gods you aren't in a religion." or "you aren't pagan."

 

Then stop using pagan. It's really that simple. If something is so ambiguous and undefined as this word "pagan", and you keep saying we should lump them all into one category then don't use pagan. Essentially you are saying that "pagan" is a meaningless word.

 

That's crap. Because REALLY and truly, the only people who have a true right to define a religion are it's adherents.

 

"true right"? Possibly...that doesn't mean that what they define is logical, rational, or meaningful.

 

As for a supernatural power being involved and believed in being necessary for a RELIGION. Again, taoism, confuscionism and Buddhism do not fit this profile, at least not very strongly. (And there are a lot of pagans who DO believe in some kind of a supernatural power/force, but they wouldn't call it supernatural since everything that exists would have to by definition be considered natural, even if it's weird, we were discussing whether someone who doesn't believe in their gods literally can be considered a pagan, not whether or not they have to have beliefs at all in anything not purely mechanistic and scientific.)

 

Well you haven't defined what a pagan is, nor have you defined what believing in a "literal" God means.

 

When you say spiritual leaders do you mean "founders"

 

The clergy are a collection of spiritual leaders of the catholic religion, pastors are spiritual leaders. Founders are people who started movements like Jesus Christ, or Buddha, or Ron Hubbard, or that Smith guy who started Mormonism.

 

 

why do athiests care so much about people with beliefs?

it seems like everyone who mentions the believe in anything gets an athiest stampede.

we are not christians quit feeling threatened athiests.

 

I don't care what people believe, what's wrong with trying to understand a belief system that seems to be inherently irrational?

 

If you don't want people critiquing what you believe, then don't post anything about what you believe, it's that simple.

 

What do christians have to do with it?

[willybilly30]

 

I don't care what people believe, what's wrong with trying to understand a belief system that seems to be inherently irrational?

 

their ya go calling it irrational

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you don't want people critiquing what you believe, then don't post anything about what you believe, it's that simple.

 

i dont mind that. what gets on my nerves is people saying your irrational cause you dont think like i do. isnt that what you are saying or am i jumping to conclusions?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What do christians have to do with it?

 

were not trying to turn everyone pagan here were not fundies like them.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

I swear that Asimov stole the left side of my brain and I want it back.

[willybilly30]

i dont know what i am anymore

i used to be a strong pagan believing everything about it like it was the truth

but the more im on these forums i see theirs no proof their is or isnt a god.

so i have a conflict i got to work out here i guess.

so i dont know what to do maybe someday ill figure it out.

 

heres why i started this topic:

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=8245&hl=

 

maybe its just phycological i just notice i become athiest/agnostic like around christians maybe its just a defense kind of thing maybe im not really agnostic at all. i just thought it meant i was. i dont know.

[greygirl]

why do athiests care so much about people with beliefs?

it seems like everyone who mentions the believe in anything gets an athiest stampede.

we are not christians quit feeling threatened athiests.

 

Not all atheists do. As with any other group, you're always going to have a fringe. There are fundamentalist atheists just as surely as there are fundamentalist christians, and as with any fundamentalist, they won't be happy until they've convinced everyone that their way is the only way.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

Like I suggested to you before willy, don't worry about what to call yourself. There is a definition for atheist, agnostic, and apparently pagan for every atheist, agnostic, and pagan. If people are so desperate to know what you are just tell them your spirituality is not open for discussion, it's a personal matter like your income. If it is Christians who want to know, tell them it is against the Bible's teaching to proclaim your faith on street corners. That should make them stutter for a few minutes while you make your escape.

[willybilly30]

yea their are fundys in everything that exists. i just wish they wouldnt talk like we are idiots cause we are not athiest. but i may just be getting the wrong idea from what they are saying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

why do athiests care so much about people with beliefs?

it seems like everyone who mentions the believe in anything gets an athiest stampede.

we are not christians quit feeling threatened athiests.

 

Not all atheists do. As with any other group, you're always going to have a fringe. There are fundamentalist atheists just as surely as there are fundamentalist christians, and as with any fundamentalist, they won't be happy until they've convinced everyone that their way is the only way.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

why do athiests care so much about people with beliefs?

it seems like everyone who mentions the believe in anything gets an athiest stampede.

we are not christians quit feeling threatened athiests.

 

Not all atheists do. As with any other group, you're always going to have a fringe. There are fundamentalist atheists just as surely as there are fundamentalist christians, and as with any fundamentalist, they won't be happy until they've convinced everyone that their way is the only way.

 

Amen to that. Like I have said before, people don't like to be wrong and they will try to convince, insult, badger, and force people into what they believe until there is no one left to tell them they are wrong. Especially me, but that is the nature of the beast.

[Amethyst]

Right. I just tell people I'm not religious and let them lump me into whatever box they want. If they want to be judgmental, that's their problem.

[willybilly30]

i am pagan i believe in it but i know theirs no proof of any god or any religion is true. what ever label that puts on me i guess i am. i think their is a creator but i dont know what it is.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. Please note that the fourth definition has nothing to do with worship or gods.

 

Sorry, don't mean to get back into this, but I just have to say that I wish they could use that definition in a sentence to give an example of what they mean. I could use that definition in "He pursued his cause, principle or activity as though it were a religion."

 

I don't understand why you are restating this for me. EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS IS NATURAL. If there is some big sky daddy in the sky that's natural cause it exists. (note I'm not saying there IS a big skydaddy, I'm saying if there is, it somehow has to fit into the laws of physics or there are laws we don't know about yet, or whatever, but it's still natural cause it would exist.) There's no such thing as "supernatural" that's like saying "more than what exists." it's a meaningless concept/term.

 

I say there is natural, and then there is man-made.

 

BELIEFS not belief. It's not like each of these just has one belief. And within each of these religions there are various sects that disagree on major points. It's not all nearly as cohesive as you seem to want to think it is.

Also, Druids and Wiccans are very different, and yet, they are both considered pagan religions.

 

Types of religions

ancestor worship, civil religion, folk religion, mystery religion, New Age, paganism, shamanism, spirituality, totemism, animism

 

Short, alphabetical and incomplete list of pagan religions.

 

Asatru, Celtic Reconstructionism, Celtic Wicca, Dianic Wicca, Discordianism, Druidry, Eclectic Wicca,

Egyptian, Finnish Paganism, Hellenic, Mesopotamian, Minoan, Norse Wicca, Numinism, Old English, Heathenry, Religio Romana, Romuva, Satanism, Spira, Slavic, Stregha, Thelema, Traditional Wicca,

Traditional Witchcraft, Vedic

 

Forms of belief

transtheism, deism, henotheism, maltheism, monism, monotheism, pantheism, panentheism, polytheism, theism

 

Religious practices

divination, ecstasy, exorcism, faith, forgiveness, magic, meditation, mysticism, prayer, sacrifice, superstition, worship

 

ASIMOV SAID:

Clearly wiccans believe in something that sets them apart from other belief systems.

 

Which Wiccans?

 

I SAY:

Literal would mean they believe the gods and goddesses of the mythology they have chosen are really real literal spiritual beings.

 

Also called theism.

 

non-literal would mean they believe the gods and goddesses of the mythology they have chosen are NOT real literal spiritual beings. If they don't believe in their deities literally, they might see them as metaphor, energies, archetypes, just good stories, whatever.

 

Which could be apophatic or maybe some kind of pantheism, possibly even cosmothiesm if I understand your beliefs correctly but I'm not sure I do. It can still be a part of paganism because it is a belief and not a religion, just a part of a religion.

 

I've also never met anyone that worshipped generic "energies" although it is theoretically possible.

 

If this is what I think you are saying it is called Pluralism.

 

Someone can be an atheist and a pagan.

 

According to the almighty Wiki "Although atheists often share common concerns regarding empirical evidence and the scientific method of investigation and a large number are skeptics, there is no single ideology that all atheists share. Thus, atheism is not a religion. Additionally, there are certain individuals whose religious or spiritual beliefs some might describe as atheistic, though those holding such beliefs do not normally describe themselves as atheists."

 

Just quoting it, not arguing it.

 

Logical, rational, or meaningful TO YOU. Do you have the market cornered on what is logical, rational or meaningful?

 

Also called relativism. Sorry, don't mean to be a weenie.

 

I know that generally speaking pagan religions are earth based, revolve around seasonal changes, often have some type of rituals associated with that, usually follow some pre-christian mythology whether literally or nonliterally.

 

Pretty much true.

 

Yes,I realize I'm in bitch mode here, but I wonder if you are splitting hairs or being purposefully obstinate.

 

Yea, but your so sexy when your bitchy.