I'll Play The Fundie

[duderonomy]

Rhem...

Thanks for saying so.

Somehow it doesn't seem as fun an idea as it did then, since Amy came along with the real thing.

And yeah, the same logical way of looking at things that I had then did in fact lead to my deconversion. So much for the 'brain that God gave me'.

[julian]

OK, I'm back.

 

Anyone else want to go toe to toe?

 

Previous posters... thank you for your compliments re my 'christian logic'.

It must have been so good that it scared you away!

 

 

Or not.

 

This is my first thread here. Thank you all who took the time to type.

 

I learned a little more about myself.

 

If anyone wants a piece of me and my Fundie logic, bring it on! If not, then I'll watch this, my firstborn thread slowly sink into the abyss of cyber-space.

 

Either way,

 

I'll bite. So, what about the concept of heaven and hell? The idea that beings are created from nothing, subject to lives which are relatively shockingly short and then thrown into one of two fates for forever more is patently laughable. First, nothing can be created from nothing, then be put somewhere because of some "judge" and stay there; it violates every shred of wisdom and logic you can find. Furthermore, it is surely ridiculous to say that something has an ultimate destination of which there is no escape. Why? Well, we can see from the world (read: reality) that all things begin, live, end and eventually begin again. If you disagree, kindly apply that to reality, and it will work out.

 

What is more is that such a concept is in complete and utter defiance of any notion of justice. Would you agree that to every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction? Well then, how could a lifetime of bad deeds equal an eternity of pain and suffering? Let me give you a hint: it doesn't.

 

And I would also like to add another thing. The concept of a deity that is separate and apart from the rest of existence is another illogical and flawed view. To say that "God" is all-powerful is to ignore the simple facts of existence. Namely, the fact that all things have power over themselves; the fact that all things assume roles in the world, and they subsequently provide for others; the fact that all things begin, live and end, only to allow for further continuation of this cycle; the fact that the existence of any one thing is no different from the life of any other thing; the fact that beyond every entity, there is a constant being, one that is ultimate (we know this from seeing how mass, such as water, stays constant even when changing forms, or how energy remains the same even if it also changes forms...further it is true that the cycle of birth, life and death are repeated constantly, which undeniably shows how there is a constant). Need I continue? This all contributes to the conclusion that there is nothing that is higher or better or more divine than any other thing, for everything is ultimately divine and true in an equal and connected way.

[RHEMtron]

Rhem...

Thanks for saying so.

Somehow it doesn't seem as fun an idea as it did then, since Amy came along with the real thing.

And yeah, the same logical way of looking at things that I had then did in fact lead to my deconversion. So much for the 'brain that God gave me'.

no prob.

 

amy is cool, but the only problem i have is whenever a good, valid point is made... she ignores the point...

 

i was thinking about trying to play the fundie too, but i know in the end ill lose. there's no rational or logical way to defend and irrational illogical religion.

[RHEMtron]

well.... lemme at least try to play the fundie [just keep in mind ill purposely say stupid things like "you just have to have faith" just to give credibility ] too.

I'll bite. So, what about the concept of heaven and hell?

What about it? We will either be in heaven with our Father, or be eternally tortured in hell.

 

The idea that beings are created from nothing, subject to lives which are relatively shockingly short and then thrown into one of two fates for forever more is patently laughable.

What do you mean by nothing? The bible doesnt say beings [humans or animals] are created from nothing.

 

First, nothing can be created from nothing,

In what sense? If i go out into space, the nothingness of space will "create" death. From what science says, the absense of life [nothing] on the young earth was still able to create life [something] right? And again with space which is nothing... the universe was created by a supposed "big bang" right? Isnt that something being created out of nothing?

 

then be put somewhere because of some "judge" and stay there;

Why do you say "judge"? He is our Father and Creator!! Besides... a "judge" put criminals in jail and tells them to stay there all the time!!

 

Furthermore, it is surely ridiculous to say that something has an ultimate destination of which there is no escape. Why? Well, we can see from the world (read: reality) that all things begin, live, end and eventually begin again. If you disagree, kindly apply that to reality, and it will work out.

So youre saying it's "ridiculous to say that something has an ultimate destination", but then you say "all things begin, live, end, and eventually begin again". Isnt that latter statement you made implying that there is an ultimate destination? Isnt death an ultimate destination of which there is no escape?

 

What is more is that such a concept is in complete and utter defiance of any notion of justice.

no... injustice is letting a person with a corrupt heart enter paradise. justice is letting that person receive his/her punishment.

 

Would you agree that to every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction?

in the laws of physics? yes, that is true. on a spiritual, emotional, metaphysical level, no i dont. i believe in consequences [good or bad].

 

Well then, how could a lifetime of bad deeds equal an eternity of pain and suffering? Let me give you a hint: it doesn't.

you dont think it's fair? our countries justice system uses that type of punishment. we punish criminals with death [or in Our Father's court, second/spiritual death] sentences, or we lock them up with lifetime, 2 lifetimes, and sometimes even 3 lifetime sentences!! For them that's already eternity!!

 

so if a child molester continually committed these horrendous acts for 40 years, you believe they should only be punished for a short time? how long do you think they should be punished? 40 years? 20 years? 10 years? 5 years? and then what? send them out again into the world? i think not!! you lock them up forever!

 

The concept of a deity that is separate and apart from the rest of existence is another illogical and flawed view.

How is it illogical? I live outside the world of my nephew's ant farm. We live outside the "reality" of the Desperate Housewives world. Quantum physics and string theory our all out of our perceived, physical, macro reality, but it's there. Time is not a physical part of this reality, yet it exists.

 

To say that "God" is all-powerful is to ignore the simple facts of existence. Namely, the fact that all things have power over themselves; the fact that all things assume roles in the world, and they subsequently provide for others;

God is our Father. That's what a good parent does. A good parent will boost their child's self-esteem, nurture them, and sometime leave them alone or guide them to get through troubled times... to assume rolls in the world [whether as a politician, teacher, a MINISTER for example]... and to provide for others [just like Jesus did for us by his death!].

 

the fact that all things begin, live and end, only to allow for further continuation of this cycle;

Again youre just agreeing with me that there is an ultimate destination.

 

This all contributes to the conclusion that there is nothing that is higher or better or more divine than any other thing, for everything is ultimately divine and true in an equal and connected way.

i covered why there is a need for heaven and hell, justice, how something can exist outside our reality, the role of God guiding and helping us, and an assumed agreement that there is an ultimate destination. That contributes to my conclusion!!

 

But thanks brother for pointing out that everything is ultimately divine! That's the work of God right there! Everything he creates is diving and "good".

[Antlerman]

well.... lemme at least try to play the fundie [just keep in mind ill purposely say stupid things like "you just have to have faith" just to give credibility ] too.

I'll bite. So, what about the concept of heaven and hell?

What about it? We will either be in heaven with our Father, or be eternally tortured in hell.

Why is God a Male? When did (he) become a male? Didn't (he) create humans in (his) own image, and then after the fall they realized their gender differences? Did God separate out into a male "Father" as a result of human sin? If so, where did his wife go? Where's God the Mother? Where’s my Mommy? Maybe Mommy God will tell Daddy God to be nice to his pets he put into his botany project with the magic tree he put Snake in charge of.

 

Whoa, I just saw the light! This is a myth story, not history!!

[julian]

To RHEMtron

 

well.... lemme at least try to play the fundie [just keep in mind ill purposely say stupid things like "you just have to have faith" just to give credibility ] too.

 

OK thanks (I hope this isn't a really late reply).

 

I'll bite. So, what about the concept of heaven and hell?

 

What about it? We will either be in heaven with our Father, or be eternally tortured in hell.

 

That makes absolutely no sense. What reason could you possibly have to believe that? It violates many principles of existence (such as action/reaction, continuity of existence, etc...), and is patently immoral. Secondly, this concept of a "father" is surely illogical. How can there be one deity removed from all else? Anyone who cares to look at the world can testify to the falseness of this notion.

 

The idea that beings are created from nothing, subject to lives which are relatively shockingly short and then thrown into one of two fates for forever more is patently laughable.

What do you mean by nothing? The bible doesnt say beings [humans or animals] are created from nothing.

 

Then where do we come from? What material are we molded from? Where are our souls before we are "created"? There is no mention of prior existence, so naturally the conclusion would be that we are "made" from nothing, something that is certainly foolish to claim.

 

First, nothing can be created from nothing

In what sense? If i go out into space, the nothingness of space will "create" death. From what science says, the absense of life [nothing] on the young earth was still able to create life [something] right? And again with space which is nothing... the universe was created by a supposed "big bang" right? Isnt that something being created out of nothing?

 

If you go into space, you will die from many conditions, not from nothingness. A lack of oxygen, for example, will kill you. However, that is little different than water, now isn't it? In fact, nothingness cannot sustain life, because without such things as water or oxygen, we cannot live, and that is why going out into space fully exposed will kill someone. This proves my point.

 

Life did come from something. When life came about, there was water and other necessities, which surely indicate a lack of nothingness (read: something). The big bang was the expansion of already present material, not some kind of spontaneous creation.

 

I thought the notion of spontaneous generation was proven wrong in the 19th century, but I guess it's unfortunately still applied to theology.

 

then be put somewhere because of some "judge" and stay there

Why do you say "judge"? He is our Father and Creator!! Besides... a "judge" put criminals in jail and tells them to stay there all the time!!

 

He's a judge by definition, and judges in real life can be corrupt and wrong, letting criminals walk in the halls of power while a starving man who stole bread is given the most dire of punishments.

 

Furthermore, it is surely ridiculous to say that something has an ultimate destination of which there is no escape. Why? Well, we can see from the world (read: reality) that all things begin, live, end and eventually begin again. If you disagree, kindly apply that to reality, and it will work out.

So youre saying it's "ridiculous to say that something has an ultimate destination", but then you say "all things begin, live, end, and eventually begin again". Isnt that latter statement you made implying that there is an ultimate destination? Isnt death an ultimate destination of which there is no escape?

 

There is a big difference. An ending is simply another part of existence, it is not a destination. You are mistaking a circle for a line segment. In this way, all things which end eventually begin again. Look at nature, as the fall (leaves die) leads to spring, as death (something dies) leads to life (it is decomposed and is used by plants which provides for other life forms). So, we know that there is continuity through "death", and that it is only a superficial "end", of sorts. What conclusion does this give us? It shows (IMO, at least) that individual existence is constant through all of this, so basically the true self of an entity never begins nor ends, it always IS, and it manifests itself in different forms (backed up by law of conservation of energy/mass).

 

What is more is that such a concept is in complete and utter defiance of any notion of justice.

no... injustice is letting a person with a corrupt heart enter paradise. justice is letting that person receive his/her punishment.

 

How could you possibly earn a punishment of eternity for a mere lifetime of bad deeds? If you spent every waking second of your life trying to do evil, you could never do enough to warrant being condemned to pain and suffering for eternity. Secondly, it is immoral to send people to this same place because they simply disagree on worldview.

 

Would you agree that to every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction?

in the laws of physics? yes, that is true. on a spiritual, emotional, metaphysical level, no i dont. i believe in consequences [good or bad].

 

Such truths do not have boundaries, they apply themselves to all facets of existence, be they physical, mental, subliminal, spiritual or otherwise. If you look at anything, you can see this fact of actions and reactions act out. History has shown this as much as science has. So there is no reason to think that this would not be applicable to spirituality.

 

Well then, how could a lifetime of bad deeds equal an eternity of pain and suffering? Let me give you a hint: it doesn't.

you dont think it's fair? our countries justice system uses that type of punishment. we punish criminals with death [or in Our Father's court, second/spiritual death] sentences, or we lock them up with lifetime, 2 lifetimes, and sometimes even 3 lifetime sentences!! For them that's already eternity!!

 

I don't know if you didn't get the message, but our criminal justice system is pathetic and beyond flawed. Using it as justification for a "divine" system of judgment is just myopic. In this country, a corporate criminal who steals $11 billion gets HALF the sentence as someone who steals $153 worth of children's videos from K-Mart (that's a fact, by the way). In this country, lower class criminals are given ridiculous sentences while the rich walk free even though the rich steal far more (corporate crime - $338 billion a year; street crime - $3.8 billion a year). In this country, 70% of the people behind bars are functionally illiterate (that's also a fact). I could go on and on, but I think you get my point.

 

To reiterate, my point is that your analogy is patently ridiculous and meaningless.

 

However, the fact is that an eternity of torture (far more than a lifetime, if you messed up the math) does not compare to a lifetime prison sentence AT ALL. Furthermore, a lifetime of evil does not justify an eternity of punishment AT ALL.

 

so if a child molester continually committed these horrendous acts for 40 years, you believe they should only be punished for a short time? how long do you think they should be punished? 40 years? 20 years? 10 years? 5 years? and then what? send them out again into the world? i think not!! you lock them up forever!

 

You want to use this comparison? Fine. Such criminals cannot have access to children, period. Jailtime is a must, but if you think that there are no alternatives, you are mistaken. We can keep tabs on these people, notify the community, set parole restrictions specifically to their tendencies and other things. Not practical? We already do that. However, locking someone up for the rest of their life to ensure they don't do such a thing is acceptable. Why? Because they destroyed the life or lives of other people, innocents who did nothing wrong, they committed perhaps the worst offense imaginable and ruined someone else's life because of it. That deserves a like punishment, which would be for life, not eternity. LIFE does not equal ETERNITY. Furthermore, if you apply the laws I have stated to a deeper level, they will inevitably feel the same harm they committed at some point (even if it takes multiple lives).

 

The concept of a deity that is separate and apart from the rest of existence is another illogical and flawed view.

How is it illogical? I live outside the world of my nephew's ant farm. We live outside the "reality" of the Desperate Housewives world. Quantum physics and string theory our all out of our perceived, physical, macro reality, but it's there. Time is not a physical part of this reality, yet it exists.

 

You live outside your nephew's ant farm, but you are not the alpha and the omega of your nephew's ant farm. You do live outside of that environment, but nothing is an omnipotent being over that environment. You can alter that environment, but that only shows that we can influence our sorroundings and the beings around us, not that said environment is something's subject (ie the Christian mindset).

 

If you look at dreams, on the other hand, they are a different reality of sorts, but the fact is that they are futher from the most "real" reality. We know that dreams are not real in relation to our own world, but they are real. So, they are a reality which involved us as entities, which is the point. This reality is removed from us, but what does that have to do with an all-knowing, all-powerful "deity" that Christianity believes in? It doesn't at all, it merely has to do with the fact that there are many levels to existence, and a dream is a level further removed from the ultimately reality. The constant to all these levels is the self, the individual, the true entity (not this idea of a "god" you try to validate).

 

To say that "God" is all-powerful is to ignore the simple facts of existence. Namely, the fact that all things have power over themselves; the fact that all things assume roles in the world, and they subsequently provide for others

God is our Father. That's what a good parent does. A good parent will boost their child's self-esteem, nurture them, and sometime leave them alone or guide them to get through troubled times... to assume rolls in the world [whether as a politician, teacher, a MINISTER for example]... and to provide for others [just like Jesus did for us by his death!].

 

You make the assumption that this "deity" is our father, yet there is no reason to believe such a thing. However, the real point here is that all things are independent, and that is undeniable. Everything has power over itself, nothing is subject to the whims of some father in the sky.

 

the fact that all things begin, live and end, only to allow for further continuation of this cycle

Again youre just agreeing with me that there is an ultimate destination.

 

Does a circle end? Cycles have no ultimate destination. A cycle is continuous and eternal.

 

This all contributes to the conclusion that there is nothing that is higher or better or more divine than any other thing, for everything is ultimately divine and true in an equal and connected way.

i covered why there is a need for heaven and hell, justice, how something can exist outside our reality, the role of God guiding and helping us, and an assumed agreement that there is an ultimate destination. That contributes to my conclusion!!

 

You said that hell is justified, even though it certainly is not, because even a lifetime of evil cannot possibly equal an eternity of punishment. You also said that "god" could be removed from us, even though this concept has nothing to do with reality. Your "assumed agreement" has been shown to be a figment of your imagination at least a few times. That contributes only to your collection of mistakes.

 

But thanks brother for pointing out that everything is ultimately divine! That's the work of God right there! Everything he creates is diving and "good".

 

I'm wondering if you can comprehend what I say. I said that everything is ultimately divine, which means a rock outside your window is as divine as you and I. A tree is as divine as anything else. Everything IS divinity, not a "deity" which is removed from the world. And we already went over how nothing can be truly created.

 

 

 

I loved some of your "but he's our father!" points! ("thanks brother"; "a 'judge' puts criminals in jail and tells them to stay there all the time!" ) Thanks!

[RHEMtron]

Rhemtron,

 

Hey! You're better at this then I am. Too bad you and D aren't really on my side. I could use a couple of smarties.

hahaha well keep in mind most of the people here were at one point fundamentalists. but in the end... it was either us being smarties that caused us to deconvert... or arguing with other people and recognized that there really wasnt any good arguments to stay in the faith.

[RHEMtron]

Then where do we come from? What material are we molded from? Where are our souls before we are "created"? There is no mention of prior existence, so naturally the conclusion would be that we are "made" from nothing, something that is certainly foolish to claim.

 

The bible says Adam was created from the earth. Keep in mind Genesis was written a couple thousand years ago. At that time, people were unaware of cells, amino acids, etc. In this day and age, a scientist can understand that Adam being created from the earth means being created from the same elements that make up the earth. It's not improbable. Scientist have been able to create the "primordial soup" in lab that gave rise to life.

 

So now i ask, how do you believe the universe was created?

 

If you go into space, you will die from many conditions, not from nothingness. A lack of oxygen, for example, will kill you. However, that is little different than water, now isn't it? In fact, nothingness cannot sustain life, because without such things as water or oxygen, we cannot live, and that is why going out into space fully exposed will kill someone. This proves my point.

 

All that means is nothing(emptiness of space) and something(water) can kill you. When a being is in space, the nothingness "creates" death.

 

Life did come from something. When life came about, there was water and other necessities, which surely indicate a lack of nothingness (read: something).

 

That exactly what the Bible says! God Our Lord the Father Hallelujah Amen (i couldnt help myself ) created the earth, and then created life after!!

 

The big bang was the expansion of already present material, not some kind of spontaneous creation.

 

Material existing at that time is just speculation. All the theory states is that all energy was contained in one single point in the universe. Even if all material and energy was contained in one single point (maybe God?), then where did that preexisting material come from?

 

I thought the notion of spontaneous generation was proven wrong in the 19th century, but I guess it's unfortunately still applied to theology.

 

That's not what i was talking about. Spontaneous Generation refers to mice spontaneously appearing in stored grains, or maggots spontaneously appearing on meat. I am talking about abiogenesis in the context of the "Primordial Soup" Hypothesis:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation

 

In 1936 Aleksandr Ivanovich Oparin, in his "The Origin of Life on Earth", demonstrated that organic molecules could be created in an oxygen-less atmosphere, through the action of sunlight. These molecules, he suggested, combine in ever-more complex fashion until they are dissolved into a coacervate droplet. These droplets could then "grow" by fusion with other droplets, "reproduce" through fission into daughter droplets, and so have a primitive metabolism in which those factors which promote "cell integrity" survive, and those that don't become extinct. Around the same time J. B. S. Haldane suggested that the earth's pre-biotic oceans - very different from their modern counterparts - would have formed a "hot dilute soup" in which organic compounds, the building blocks of life, could have formed. This idea was called biopoiesis or biopoesis, the process of living matter evolving from self-replicating but nonliving molecules.

 

In 1953, taking their cue from Oparin and Haldane, the chemists Stanley L. Miller and Harold C. Urey carried out an experiment on the "primeval soup". Within two weeks a few simpler organic amino acids, the basic building blocks of life (but racemized), had formed. While Miller and Urey did not actually create life; they demonstrated that a more complex molecule — a few simpler amino-acids — could emerge spontaneously from simpler chemicals, in the presence of an external energy source in an atmosphere largely devoid of oxygen (the experiment involved shooting a spark, representing lightning, into their flask of supposedly primitive earth-gases) and with careful filtering in place to preserve the results.

 

Their experiments had different results from Pasteur's because they involved different conditions. Since that time there have been other experiments that continue to look into possible ways for life to have formed from non-living chemicals, e.g. the experiments conducted by Joan Oró in 1961. . Some involve the formation of self-replicating molecules that make copies of themselves, but are not regarded as living (see definition of life)

 

See... this is exactly what God did!!

 

He's a judge by definition, and judges in real life can be corrupt and wrong, letting criminals walk in the halls of power while a starving man who stole bread is given the most dire of punishments.

 

Yes, they can be corrupt, but judges can also be noble and dignified. That's what God is by definition: a noble, dignified, fair, loving judge!

 

There is a big difference. An ending is simply another part of existence, it is not a destination. You are mistaking a circle for a line segment. In this way, all things which end eventually begin again.

 

I believe in an ultimate destination. You said you dont believe in an ultimate destination. My point is that to say something will eventually end up somewhere, whether heaven or hell like i stated, or at the begining of a circle again, which you stated, means that ultimately we will end up somewhere. So for you to say that there's life, growth, death, and life again means youre saying you believe in an ultimate destination of life again.... or we live, and our ultimate destination is death.

 

It shows (IMO, at least) that individual existence is constant through all of this, so basically the true self of an entity never begins nor ends, it always IS, and it manifests itself in different forms (backed up by law of conservation of energy/mass).

 

Oh okay gotcha. I see your point and why you dont believe in heaven and hell. I understand what you mean by continued existence being recycled. But the law of conservation of energy and mass deals with the physical aspects of your existence. It is our souls/consciousness that ends up in heaven and hell.

 

How could you possibly earn a punishment of eternity for a mere lifetime of bad deeds? If you spent every waking second of your life trying to do evil, you could never do enough to warrant being condemned to pain and suffering for eternity.

 

So what do you supposed we should do we the habitual rapists, molesters, killers, thieves, etc.? Should we just let them into paradise to continue doing what they do? Our Father who are in heaven is a merciful judge. But anyhow, it is fair. It's fair in that all they have to do is repent and they dont have to go to hell. How simple is that!!?! That's how things are balanced.

 

If someone doesnt believe, then that's their fault for not listening to our words which are the Word of God. But in the end, they can still choose to believe and all will be fine. Just like the thief that was with Jesus on Calvary. He repented and was able to go to heaven with Jesus.

 

Such truths do not have boundaries, they apply themselves to all facets of existence, be they physical, mental, subliminal, spiritual or otherwise. If you look at anything, you can see this fact of actions and reactions act out. History has shown this as much as science has. So there is no reason to think that this would not be applicable to spirituality.

 

No "for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction" is a term in the realm of physics. Im assuming you were refering to Newton's Third Law which is applied to forces acting upon masses. So how does it apply to mental states? In my head i say Al Gore is stupid... what is the opposite reaction going on? Or i push Al Gore in my head... what is the equal and opposite reaction going on there? Where's the equal and opposite reaction on an emotional and spiritual level?

 

I don't know if you didn't get the message, but our criminal justice system is pathetic and beyond flawed. Using it as justification for a "divine" system of judgment is just myopic.

 

Whether it's flawed or not isnt the point. You said you fail to imagine a justice system existing like hell. My analogy and point shows that there is a justice system in existence like the "idea" of hell.

 

However, the fact is that an eternity of torture (far more than a lifetime, if you messed up the math) does not compare to a lifetime prison sentence AT ALL.

 

Yes it does because in hell, youre sentence there for your entire "lifetime"... infinite as it may be in the next world. That's the same as a liftime sentence in prison. The only difference is you get to die in prison because that is an ultimate destination. If you were emmortal and could live forever, a lifetime sentence in prison would mean youre there for eternity.

 

You want to use this comparison? Fine. Such criminals cannot have access to children, period.

 

No, but they can have access to anyone who drops the soap.

 

You live outside your nephew's ant farm, but you are not the alpha and the omega of your nephew's ant farm. You do live outside of that environment, but nothing is an omnipotent being over that environment. You can alter that environment, but that only shows that we can influence our sorroundings and the beings around us, not that said environment is something's subject (ie the Christian mindset).

 

Doesnt matter if i said i was the alpha and omega or not. Doesnt matter how strong my influence is on that environment. You said you fail to see the existence of an outside being. I gave examples of how a being can live outside or how something can live outside our physical existence, but still effect our physical world... such as time, constants, equations, dreams, etc. Stop deviating from the points at hand just because you know im right.

 

You make the assumption that this "deity" is our father, yet there is no reason to believe such a thing.

 

Im not making any assumption. The bible says the deity is Our Father. Who do you think he is? A first cousin 4 times removed? Why is there no reason to believe such a thing? Open you heart and so you can hear him speaking to you!! He longs for you to come back to him because he loves you!! You just have to have faith (sorry... again i couldnt help myself )!!!

 

I loved some of your "but he's our father!" points! ("thanks brother"; "a 'judge' puts criminals in jail and tells them to stay there all the time!" ) Thanks!

 

hahahahahaha i was hoping you guys would catch that!! i just had to throw those things in there. man it's hard playing the fundie. as soon as i want to say something, i already know the flaws. it took me almost 2 hours to repond to this post haha! sometimes i couldnt help but laugh while i typed.... so i guess at this point i concede

[RHEMtron]

Why is God a Male?

Why not? Why am i male? We are what we are. No need to question that.

 

When did (he) become a male? Didn't (he) create humans in (his) own image, and then after the fall they realized their gender differences?

The bible says God created MAN in His own image, in the image of God he created HIM; so to paraphrase: God created Man to look like God, so God's own looks was used on Him.

 

Man, used in Genesis, usually refers to male, except when it says "both man". This is understandable considering the society at that time period was a patriarchal one.

 

Did God separate out into a male "Father" as a result of human sin? If so, where did his wife go? Where's God the Mother? Where’s my Mommy? Maybe Mommy God will tell Daddy God to be nice to his pets he put into his botany project with the magic tree he put Snake in charge of.

 

Whoa, I just saw the light! This is a myth story, not history!!

i give up

[diggin]

well.... lemme at least try to play the fundie [just keep in mind ill purposely say stupid things like "you just have to have faith" just to give credibility ] too.

I'll bite. So, what about the concept of heaven and hell?

What about it? We will either be in heaven with our Father, or be eternally tortured in hell.

 

The idea that beings are created from nothing, subject to lives which are relatively shockingly short and then thrown into one of two fates for forever more is patently laughable.

What do you mean by nothing? The bible doesnt say beings [humans or animals] are created from nothing.

 

First, nothing can be created from nothing,

In what sense? If i go out into space, the nothingness of space will "create" death. From what science says, the absense of life [nothing] on the young earth was still able to create life [something] right? And again with space which is nothing... the universe was created by a supposed "big bang" right? Isnt that something being created out of nothing?

 

then be put somewhere because of some "judge" and stay there;

Why do you say "judge"? He is our Father and Creator!! Besides... a "judge" put criminals in jail and tells them to stay there all the time!!

 

Furthermore, it is surely ridiculous to say that something has an ultimate destination of which there is no escape. Why? Well, we can see from the world (read: reality) that all things begin, live, end and eventually begin again. If you disagree, kindly apply that to reality, and it will work out.

So youre saying it's "ridiculous to say that something has an ultimate destination", but then you say "all things begin, live, end, and eventually begin again". Isnt that latter statement you made implying that there is an ultimate destination? Isnt death an ultimate destination of which there is no escape?

 

What is more is that such a concept is in complete and utter defiance of any notion of justice.

no... injustice is letting a person with a corrupt heart enter paradise. justice is letting that person receive his/her punishment.

 

Would you agree that to every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction?

in the laws of physics? yes, that is true. on a spiritual, emotional, metaphysical level, no i dont. i believe in consequences [good or bad].

 

Well then, how could a lifetime of bad deeds equal an eternity of pain and suffering? Let me give you a hint: it doesn't.

you dont think it's fair? our countries justice system uses that type of punishment. we punish criminals with death [or in Our Father's court, second/spiritual death] sentences, or we lock them up with lifetime, 2 lifetimes, and sometimes even 3 lifetime sentences!! For them that's already eternity!!

 

so if a child molester continually committed these horrendous acts for 40 years, you believe they should only be punished for a short time? how long do you think they should be punished? 40 years? 20 years? 10 years? 5 years? and then what? send them out again into the world? i think not!! you lock them up forever!

 

At the moment I feel like the old man in Moonstruck at the end... "I'm Confused" ....

 

But I think I get Amy's drift enough to start a little fight that you guys are welcome to eavesdrop on ... remember me, I'm a Christian who doesn't believe in hell or a boatload of other "orthodox" dogmas.....

 

Amy, your notion of eternal punishment for temporary crimes is straight out of Augustine, who was a Manichean before embracing Christianity. He brought those ideas with him, and sold them to the church.

 

Augustine said some pretty outrageous things -- for example, he argued that God was so perfect, so exquisitely sensitive to every slight and every affront of his righteous heart, that even the slightest sin by a human caused God infinite suffering. Therefore, any sin we commit deserves endless waves of fierce agony so that we can feel what God feels when we sin.

This logic(?) was then extended to the philosophy of redemption. Jesus couldn't be a man, even though the Bible says he was again and again, because a man cannot experience infinite pain. He needed to be God so that he could bear infinite pain in his death.

 

Never did find out how this genius explained why it is that Jesus suffered infinite pain, yet most people who have ever lived miss out on the free coupon because of ... what is it? their own hardness of heart? Stupidity? Willingness to be born in Saudi Arabia? How about the perverse decision to be born with fetal alcohol syndrome and therefore no working conscience.... or spina bifida and therefore no brain.

 

So let's go back to your child molester. I think it's fair to assume we agree that a child molester deserves some sort of retribution for his specific sins, the damage he does to himself, to the child, and to society. (Never mind that the vast majority of child molesters are the children of child molesters.....)

 

You have suggested that God merely does what human courts do - lock em up and throw away the key. Well, God in that view does far worse. Human courts feed and clothe the child molester, try to give them an education, let them watch TV (without censoring out sexual content, no doubt), and then only until their term is up. If they die in jail, their term is up in, say, 50 years. But in your scenario you've got God keeping them in some sort of conscious agony, without the possibility of learning the lesson and "going straight" for billions and trillions of years .... forever. Contemplate eternity, and you've got shrieking, weeping, tortured souls punished forever. I suppose when the sun expands to the orbit of Jupiter, God'll grab all these child molesters and rapists and Priests who were child abusers and ship them off the the underworld of a new planet, where they can continue to shriek and howl until that star runs out of fuel, too.

 

Or, you could try believing the Bible.

 

Where, for example, it says that God will "seek out their wickedness until he finds none." (Psalm 10:15). Or where it says, "the soul that sins, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:5). Or where it says, "the whole earth will be devoured with the fire of my jealousy (obviously symbolic of a melt-down of present human society followed by a new order in which God actually talks to people because) "then will I turn to the people a pure language, so that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent". (Zephaniah 3:8,9)

 

I know you probably never hear passages like this, but I'll give you a few more. "The Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces." "When thy (God's) judgements are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." (Isaiah 26:9) "The ransomed of the Lord (and all people are the ransomed of the Lord -- 1 Timothy 2:4-6) shall return, and come to Zion (code word for God's government on earth) with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads. They shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35) "In that day, it will no longer be said, the fathers ate a sour grape, and the children's teeth were set on edge ( in other words, no more children of child molesters growing up to be child molesters)... but everyone will DIE for his own iniquity ... the one who eats the sour grape, HIS teeth will be set on edge." Jeremiah 31:29 and following. Also in that passage it says that EVERYONE will know the lord, from the least to the greatest.

 

And of course there is Revelation 21:1-4 -- a climactic text and promise that caps the whole Bible. It shows Jesus in the picture, with the church pictured as his bride, and all the world of mankind blessed by them.

 

What about the sinners, all those folks who rejected God? Well, they asked Jesus that question in John 12:44 and he said, "I judge him not -- because I did not come to judge the world, but to save it." God is working with a small group right now, and those are the ones he is judging. Mainstream Christianity has it exactly backwards -- they are the ones on trial, not the world. Christians are forgiven, yes, but they are also experiencing a kind of judgment as well. They have been released from their inabilty to do anything righteous, anything acceptable to God. But they have been given that standing for a purpose, the development of good fruitage and the growth of righteous character. Yet most Christians are ignoring the scriptures that call them to ever higher moral attainments, constant striving against sin, "patient continuance in well-doing", etc.. -- and instead they're trying to get their guys elected president or trying to "win the world for Christ" -- a bogus, non-biblical and delusional goal.

 

Who were the worst sinners that ever lived, so bad that they tried to gang-rape 2 angels, so bad that God wiped out 5 cities and rescued Abraham's relatives? Sodom and Gomorrah, right? What does the Bible say will happen to them? Well, Jude says they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire. But Paul in Romans 1 says that the wrath of God has been revealed against all unrighteousness. If the Sodomites are burning in hell, that has not been revealed, has it? No, that is something hidden, no one can prove it. But we can prove that Sodom died. We can find millions of bones in those locations, and evidence of cities under the Dead Sea. So what has been revealed is their death. Apparently, that's all that "eternal fire" or agelasting fire is --- and we know it's not eternal, because explicitly in Ezekiel 16 God says he will resurrect Sodom, and Israel too. (By the way, Jesus said Capernaum was even worse than Sodom, and that if Jesus had visitied Sodom they would have repented. Which is another way of saying that God has definitetly not expended all his power to try and save people. If he wanted to impress Sodom, he could have. But he chose instead to make an example of them, not convert them? Because he wanted to make them fry forever? No, because he knew that he would be resurrecting them and teaching them his ways at a future time, when it fit into his plans. God is in no hurry because he "created the earth not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited". He is planning a "feast of fat things" for "all people" (Isaiah 25:8)

 

Bottom line, Amy, as a traditional Christian, you've got a problem. These atheists (most of whom are former Christians because they got a belly full of the abuse and hypocrisy of the Christian religion, and the vacuous inabiltiy of Christian leaders to give satisfying answers to these reasonable questions) ... who are arguing with you, are saying very sensible things.... Like, "it's unfair to make a person pay forever for something he did for a finite period of time." and "It's ridiculous to sentence someone to torture of any sort." The atheists are speaking more sense than the Christians. Read the Bible, and you'll see that the mainstream concepts of "fear of God" are not God's message at all, and are taught by the precepts of men -- human traditions going back to the 3rd century.

 

 

OK, Amy, that's enough for tonight.

 

Let me know what you think....

[RHEMtron]

At the moment I feel like the old man in Moonstruck at the end... "I'm Confused" ....

yeah brother... you quoted the wrong person. All Amy said was that me and duderonomy are better fundies than her. If you look above her post, she was quoting me. It was me responding to Julian. I was the one giving the analogies of child molesters and prison. Im agnostic, but i was playing the fundie for fun argumentive purposes.

 

In the spirit of the opening post/thread, ill try to respond.

 

Amy(actually RHEMtron), your notion of eternal punishment for temporary crimes is straight out of Augustine, who was a Manichean before embracing Christianity. He brought those ideas with him, and sold them to the church.

I am very familiar with Augustine and his lies.

 

he wrote: "It is lawful, then, to him that discusses, disputes and preaches of things eternal, or to him that narrates of things temporal pertaining to religion or piety, to conceal at fitting times whatever seems fit to be concealed." Augustine, On Lying, c. 19

 

I did not get ideas from him. They were of my own. If we share the same ideas, it is because we are filled with the Holy Spirit... afterall, in John 16:13, Jesus said the Spirit of Truth will guide us into all truths. Praise the Lord for that!!!!!

 

Augustine said some pretty outrageous things

Irrelevant since Augustine is not to topic at hand, but for the sake of argument...

 

for example, he argued that God was so perfect, so exquisitely sensitive to every slight and every affront of his righteous heart, that even the slightest sin by a human caused God infinite suffering. Therefore, any sin we commit deserves endless waves of fierce agony so that we can feel what God feels when we sin.

Thank you for pointing this out. Then that's one of the reasons why a sinner deserves infinite punishment. I bet if someone molests a parents child, that parent would want that person to suffer. Guess that's what God wants to do when another one of his child harms his brethren. But of course God the Lord Our Father Who Art in Heaven is fair by forgiving us by just saying sorry, and i believe in Jesus.... Hallelujah for that... Aaaaaaamen!!!

 

You have suggested that God merely does what human courts do - lock em up and throw away the key.

I did that? Yes and no.... Yes i used the court system as an analogy. No, because you misinterpret the intention of my analogy. Julian was saying he fails to see a "justice system" that can do such a thing; that is, punish someone for the entirety of their existence. My analogy was to show that there is a "justice system" that does that. The justice system we have today can punish people with a lifetime sentence, which is the entirety of their existence.

 

Well, God in that view does far worse. Human courts feed and clothe the child molester, try to give them an education, let them watch TV (without censoring out sexual content, no doubt), and then only until their term is up. If they die in jail, their term is up in, say, 50 years.

Then the human justice system really isnt punishing is it? Besides... God's punishment is bad, but the price of bail, and the option youre giving during your "court hearing" balances the punishment. During your "court hearing" (the trials of life), all you have to say is im guilty, and im sorry. The price of bail is free!!! Meaning all you have to do is accept the "free gift"!!!

 

Or, you could try believing the Bible.

I do believe the bible. That's why i said repent and believe... like the bible says.

 

Where, for example, it says that God will "seek out their wickedness until he finds none." (Psalm 10:15).

Again i do believe. But first off, Psalms is not a book of catechism or doctrine. It's a book of praise, or songs rather.

 

But again for the sake of argument, ill address it. If i were to Read Psalms 10:15, i must read the entire Psalms 10. Starting with verse 1, it says Why do you stand afar off, O Lord? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble? That shows the Lord can at times leave us alone. No interference from the government so to speak. That also can answer the question of when non-believers ask "Then where is your God when there's so much suffering in the world?" So again, yes, i believe in Psalms 10.

 

The whole Psalms speaks of God leaving us alone, then calling for him to come, and asking him to help and punish wrongdoers. Let's read what the ENTIRE 10:15 verse reads: Break the arm of the wicked and the evildoer, seek out his wickedness until You find none. Apparently you failed to mention that the verse says "Break the arm of the wicked and evildoer". You are worse than my fellow Christian brethrens who cherry pick verses.

 

Or where it says, "the soul that sins, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:5).

This one i concede. You got me on this one. Ill get back to you. I shall pray and pray about this to ABBA, and he will show me the answer

 

Or where it says, "the whole earth will be devoured with the fire of my jealousy" *snip* "then will I turn to the people a pure language, so that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent". (Zephaniah 3:8,9)

If you read the next verses, he's speaking to his worshippers, not everyone. In verse 11, what does he say about the those who transgress against God?

 

In that day you will feel no shame because of all your deeds by which you have rebelled against Me; For then I will remove from your midst Your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on my Holy Mountain.

Take it however you want it, but no matter how you do, he's going to separate the good from the bad.

 

"The Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces." "When thy (God's) judgements are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." (Isaiah 26:9)

You say that's from Isaiah 26:9... Do you even know what Isaiah 26 is about? Read the first verse of the chapter: In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah: Again you are quoting a song that is quoted to be sung. That is not meant for catechism or doctrine. Still cherry picking and using verses out of context i see...

 

What about the sinners, all those folks who rejected God? Well, they asked Jesus that question in John 12:44 and he said, "I judge him not -- because I did not come to judge the world, but to save it."

John 12:44 says, And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in me does not believe in Me but in Him who sent me.

 

God is working with a small group right now, and those are the ones he is judging. Mainstream Christianity has it exactly backwards -- they are the ones on trial, not the world.

Yes John 14 says he is addressing his disciples, but in John 14:22, Judas Iscariot asked why Jesus was saying it to him and not the world. Jesus then replied If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word;. This implies that the message is for anyone and everyone, but it's their choice to love him or accept him. You can accept him now my friend! Take the "free gift". All you have to do is love him.

 

-Rhem

[Paul_S]

Rhem...

Thanks for saying so.

Somehow it doesn't seem as fun an idea as it did then, since Amy came along with the real thing.

And yeah, the same logical way of looking at things that I had then did in fact lead to my deconversion. So much for the 'brain that God gave me'.

 

Interesting. Here is my challenge. I ask this of both professing christians and non-christians alike.

 

"If you were to explain to someone how to become a Christian, what would you explain to them?"

 

Also sometimes as:

 

"If you were to explain to someone how to be saved, and know for sure one would go to heaven, what would you explain?"

 

And sometimes as:

 

"If you were to explain to someone the gospel, what would you tell the person?"

 

Thanks.

[Vigile]

Rhem...

Thanks for saying so.

Somehow it doesn't seem as fun an idea as it did then, since Amy came along with the real thing.

And yeah, the same logical way of looking at things that I had then did in fact lead to my deconversion. So much for the 'brain that God gave me'.

 

Interesting. Here is my challenge. I ask this of both professing christians and non-christians alike.

 

"If you were to explain to someone how to become a Christian, what would you explain to them?"

 

Also sometimes as:

 

"If you were to explain to someone how to be saved, and know for sure one would go to heaven, what would you explain?"

 

And sometimes as:

 

"If you were to explain to someone the gospel, what would you tell the person?"

 

Thanks.

 

Yeah, we know we were never True™ Christians, which explains why we are here. We just didn't mix the formula quite right and the devil deceived us.

[Paul_S]

Rhem...

Thanks for saying so.

Somehow it doesn't seem as fun an idea as it did then, since Amy came along with the real thing.

And yeah, the same logical way of looking at things that I had then did in fact lead to my deconversion. So much for the 'brain that God gave me'.

 

Interesting. Here is my challenge. I ask this of both professing christians and non-christians alike.

 

"If you were to explain to someone how to become a Christian, what would you explain to them?"

 

Also sometimes as:

 

"If you were to explain to someone how to be saved, and know for sure one would go to heaven, what would you explain?"

 

And sometimes as:

 

"If you were to explain to someone the gospel, what would you tell the person?"

 

Thanks.

 

Yeah, we know we were never True Christians, which explains why we are here. We just didn't mix the formula quite right and the devil deceived us.

 

Really? There is this metaphore, "if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost." So, either ex-christians are not lost or the gospel is false. The third possiblity is the one you stated.

 

One of the reasons I'm still a Christian is that non-christians don't believe the gospel, so much so. the non-christian can't explain it correctly. I would think an ex-christian could do that. Understand though, if there is no genuine gospel, there is also no real right answers.

 

Give those questions your best shot. If you would?

[Vigile]

 

I'll take false for $400 Alex.

 

The reason you think ex c's can't explain the gospel is because even christians can't agree on it. It seems like a silly reason to believe something is true though don't you think? I guess you are arguing that the holy ghost hides the truth from us so we just don't quite get it if we don't believe. Interesting catch 22 and quite an awful joke god plays on his own creation as well.

 

It's a mindless exercise to see if I get your formula right though since the reasons for my unbelief are myriad. If it helps you sleep better to think that we never were you then more power to you.

[Paul_S]

 

I'll take false for $400 Alex.

 

The reason you think ex c's can't explain the gospel is because even christians can't agree on it. It seems like a silly reason to believe something is true though don't you think? I guess you are arguing that the holy ghost hides the truth from us so we just don't quite get it if we don't believe. Interesting catch 22 and quite an awful joke god plays on his own creation as well.

 

It's a mindless exercise to see if I get your formula right though since the reasons for my unbelief are myriad. If it helps you sleep better to think that we never were you then more power to you.

 

There are more christian sects than in any other "religion." But I only know one gospel. And it transends, protestant, baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheren, and many others. Then there are those who have their own version of their gospel, like Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, etc.

 

I'm going to tell you the gospel that I know. You explain it back to me. And there are some fine points which may need touching on. Again you explain it back to me. Understand, explaining it back should not necessitate your belief in it. Can we prove "if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost" wrong?

 

One, one must believe God and His word.

 

Second, that Jesus Christ died for one's sins.

 

Third, that as evidence that Jesus Christ paid for one's sins and was really God's Son, He rose from the dead bodily.

 

Fourth, God does the saving, and promises to those whom He saves, "There sins and iniquities I will remember no more."

 

Now that is the outline. For starters, can you give me that outline back, even in your own words, if you would.

 

Now one is saved by changing one's mind about one's dead works. And accepting God's work on the cross by His Son Jesus Christ as one's substitute. One believes God, that Jesus died for one, and By this has eternal life. (John 3:16, 1 John 5:9-13.)

 

All this without any work or giving of self. God does the saving (John 1:12, 13, Romans 4:5.)

 

Explain that back too.

 

Now I'm sure you have objections. Please don't give them until I ask. Then we will address them, one at a time. Hay, you may convince me I've been wrong. But we'll have to deal with the "knowing God" personally issue though (John 17:3; Romans 8:15, 16.) One point at a time.

 

Repectfully,

Paul

[Vigile]

For starters, can you give me that outline back, even in your own words, if you would.

 

Again Paul, this will be a fruitless exercise. I can copy and paste your four points and a poem if you wish. I spent nearly 25 years believing those same points. I currently put no credence in the bible so it's a waste of time to try and hash out what you think the bible teaches about salvation. I'll just argue back that I don't believe I need salvation, I don't even believe in god. Like I said before, if you wish to believe I was never a true believer, that's fine with me. I don't think there are any true believers in the sense you believe there are. Now if you wish to explore whether I was devout that's another question entirely. Before I will go tit for tat with you on biblical doctrine you will have to establish for me why the bible should be considered a document of truth to begin with. So let's start from there if you wish to have this discussion.

[Paul_S]

 

<snip>

 

Before I will go tit for tat with you on biblical doctrine you will have to establish for me why the bible should be considered a document of truth to begin with. So let's start from there if you wish to have this discussion.

 

It claims to be God's word. Of course that doesn't make it so. It so happens, that I contuine to believe the Bible is God's word on the bases that I now Him through Jesus Christ as Savior.

 

The bottom line is, without the Bible, we have no message of salvation, no Christianity. None. All we are left with is the natural revelation of creation. What we study as science.

 

I believe in the 6 day ceation because I'm a Christian. The 6 day account would never convince men to become a Christian. The way most Christians believe about it, I would reject it and the gospel. It is that simple.

 

Nevertheless there are things which are taught in the Bible which cannot be proven false.

 

For example, "There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God." Can that be disproven? (God being the God of the Bible.)

 

We need something that can be shown to be true, which requires the Bible not to be true.

 

If we cannot produce something true out side the Bible, that negates the Bible, then the Bible is not proven false. Most arguments against the Bible are use of internal arguments from the Bible itself. But that can be shown to be a matter of interpretation based on assumptions and denies, or mistranslation, or manuscript problems of copies.

 

Anyway it comes back to the Bible as the bases for Christianity. Without it there is no genuine Christianity.

[Jubilant]

The bottom line is, without the Bible, we have no message of salvation, no Christianity. None. All we are left with is the natural revelation of creation. What we study as science.

 

That isn't quite right. There are numerous Saviors in various religions, plenty of savior belief options. I happen to believe that 'salvation' is here and now and that people are capable of saving themselves from depression, sadness, etc. I have the nine 'fruits' and don't believe the Bible for a minute, was a Christian for over 30 years and never felt so at peace...and it is the peace that passes understanding.

 

Also, there are NUMEROUS creation stories as well, the Asian ones are more along with science in that millions of years are covered. The Mayan calendar is based on earth cycles and thousands of years ago their calendar shows the world ending in 2014. Hmmm...considering where this world is headed they were pretty on as a major ice age is possible right around then. As for the bible creation? Just another story meant to give a possible explanation of how we got here.

 

For example, "There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God." Can that be disproven? (God being the God of the Bible.)

 

Yes, it's disproven by the mere fact that you are seeking the god of the bible.

 

We need something that can be shown to be true, which requires the Bible not to be true.

 

The fact that I have the so-called fruits of the spirit prove the bible false, but then again, I'm just a heathen liar though now aren't I?

 

If we cannot produce something true out side the Bible, that negates the Bible, then the Bible is not proven false. Most arguments against the Bible are use of internal arguments from the Bible itself. But that can be shown to be a matter of interpretation based on assumptions and denies, or mistranslation, or manuscript problems of copies.

 

What???

[Vigile]

Anyway it comes back to the Bible as the bases for Christianity. Without it there is no genuine Christianity.

 

Yup, no genuine xtianity.

 

6 day creation can be proven false. The bible makes extraordinary claims but does not provide extraordinary evidence to back them up. You have nothing but faith to back up its claims. I consider faith to be a copout and contrived way to go through life. Why your god wants a bunch of unthinking followers is beyond me.

 

Why don't you have faith in Allah or Krishna or Zeus? If you can figure that one out you will probably be well on the road to understanding why I don't have faith in your god either. You're an atheist to, I just believe in one less god than you (Ok, I'm borrowing your line Mythra, so shoot me - inside joke Paul, just ignore it).

[Vigile]

BTW Paul, it's pretty damning that christians cannot produce even one miracle that has ever been peer reviewed or stood up to even the most basic of scientific testing. In fact, you cannot even produce even one miracle that meets evidential requirements in a common court case. All miracles are hearsay and left up to subjective interpretations. Cancer goes into remission: "It's a miracle!" Cancer kills its victim: "It was god's will." God answers prayer in the only three possible ways a non entity could: yes, no and wait a while. I can pray to a rock and the same would be true. In not one instance can you produce for me a case where a leg or an arm, not even a finger grew back. And don't tell me that there is a conspiracy in the scientific community against christians. Scientists would leap over one another to be the first to present a true anomaly to nature that could have no other explanation other than the supernatural. Whoever could produce documented proof first would be touted as the next Einstein and would win a Nobel prize. Yes, it is damning indeed that there is not one miracle.

 

Equally damning is the fact that the world is poorly designed if indeed it was designed as christians claim. Why did god in his infinite wisdom create phlegm, viruses, pain, conjoined twins, male nipples, asses that need to be wiped, mosquitoes that spread malaria, animals that must kill or be killed, tooth decay?

 

If we are all sinners in need of a savior why did he kill everyone in the world with a flood in order to start over again? Why didn't he send himself to save us all from himself before the flood? Was not even one child worth saving back then? There is a huge disconnect in your theology that requires you to fill in the gaps with wonder and trust that you are just unworthy of figuring it all out because his ways are not your ways. Well, an alternative interpretation is that it is just a stupid story that makes no sense. No, I can name you ten reasons for denial of the bible for every one you give me arguing for its acceptance.

[julian]

Reply to Paul_S

 

I'm not sure if you get this, but we know what it is that you're saying. However, we see countless flaws, mistakes and other things which lead us to strongly disagree with it. One can understand something while wholly rejecting it, and this is something that you definitely need to understand. We don't need to explain anything back to you because you can see from our posts that just about all of us have a firm grasp of what the Christian mindset is, which is one of the reasons why we object to it.

[julian]

Another reply to Paul_S

 

It claims to be God's word. Of course that doesn't make it so. It so happens, that I contuine to believe the Bible is God's word on the bases that I now Him through Jesus Christ as Savior.

 

So basically, you believe it for no reason.

 

The bottom line is, without the Bible, we have no message of salvation, no Christianity. None. All we are left with is the natural revelation of creation. What we study as science.

 

We are left with other religions, but I guess you ignore them altogether. We are left without Christianity, and that is all. Your fear that without Christianity there is only science is unfounded and incorrect.

 

I believe in the 6 day ceation because I'm a Christian. The 6 day account would never convince men to become a Christian. The way most Christians believe about it, I would reject it and the gospel. It is that simple.

 

Why do you believe in the 6 day account? It is simply wrong if you actually think about it (how could you have light without light emitting objects, evening and morning without any way of distinguishing them, grass without a sun to sustain them).

 

Nevertheless there are things which are taught in the Bible which cannot be proven false.

 

Like the entire premise? Like Jesus' supposed life? Like most of what is written down? Those things can and have been proven false quite extensively.

 

For example, "There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God." Can that be disproven? (God being the God of the Bible.)

 

This is an example of a fallacious argument. It is based on the assumption of the "God" of the Bible, and therefore it is illogical to accept that very assumption when its basis is without support. Furthermore, I could say that there are underpants gnomes in my room, but you can't disprove that, can you?

 

We need something that can be shown to be true, which requires the Bible not to be true.

 

Kind of like the truth that Jesus didn't live a life remotely like the one portrayed in the Bible? I'll give you another example: if you look at the world, you can clearly see continuity. There is an undeniable cycle of birth, life and death which is in eternal motion (cycle means death leads to birth). This shows us that there is no true end, no true beginning. That is in opposition to Christian ideas. Reality constantly and consistently shows Christianity to be false.

 

If we cannot produce something true out side the Bible, that negates the Bible, then the Bible is not proven false. Most arguments against the Bible are use of internal arguments from the Bible itself. But that can be shown to be a matter of interpretation based on assumptions and denies, or mistranslation, or manuscript problems of copies.

 

You really can't be serious. Just about everything ever shown to be true has come from outside of the Bible. Many of those things have destroyed concepts and tenets of the Bible. Just about everything in the Bible has been shown to be false or at least flawed. What more do you want? Oh, and finding countless contradictions and inconsistencies in the Bible does show it to be false, because no real word of any real god would have such pathetic problems.

 

Anyway it comes back to the Bible as the bases for Christianity. Without it there is no genuine Christianity.

 

That basis is quite riddled with problems and falsities.

[Paul_S]

The bottom line is, without the Bible, we have no message of salvation, no Christianity. None. All we are left with is the natural revelation of creation. What we study as science.

 

That isn't quite right. There are numerous Saviors in various religions, plenty of savior belief options. I happen to believe that 'salvation' is here and now and that people are capable of saving themselves from depression, sadness, etc. I have the nine 'fruits' and don't believe the Bible for a minute, was a Christian for over 30 years and never felt so at peace...and it is the peace that passes understanding.

 

Yes. But I was speaking from the claims of Christianity. Not the others. I wasn't arguing there are no other claims of saviors. But knowing of the one Christianity lays claim to. It cannot be done without the Bible.

 

I find it intersting. And affirming of what I personally know and believe, the refusal to at last humor me, and tell me what one would explain to another person as to how one becomes a Christian? This aversion to do this only supports my view.

 

Also, there are NUMEROUS creation stories as well, the Asian ones are more along with science in that millions of years are covered. The Mayan calendar is based on earth cycles and thousands of years ago their calendar shows the world ending in 2014. Hmmm...considering where this world is headed they were pretty on as a major ice age is possible right around then. As for the bible creation? Just another story meant to give a possible explanation of how we got here.

Not only creation stories, but universal flood stories as well.

 

For example, "There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God." Can that be disproven? (God being the God of the Bible.)

 

Yes, it's disproven by the mere fact that you are seeking the god of the bible.

It might seem so to you. I see just the opposit, the gospel was offered and brought to me. I wasn't seeking it out. And since then I have been a Christian going on 44 years. And testing what I come to believe about it here, again. Not that I need to. But I don't wish to attack those who now deny a faith they once professed to hold. Certainly I don't know everything.

 

I believed in God, I was not seeking Him out. To discover I didn't know the God I though I believed in - becoming a Christian. Becoming a Christian, I came to know this God, which I was not seeking, nor did I know I needed to seek. Understand the great commission was given, because God is not understood nor sought out. Understand if He was, the great commission would not have been called. (God being the God of the Bible.)

 

We need something that can be shown to be true, which requires the Bible not to be true.

 

The fact that I have the so-called fruits of the spirit prove the bible false, but then again, I'm just a heathen liar though now aren't I?

Your argument fails me here. One cannot have the fruits "of the Spirit" that one rejects. But that you have a sense of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfullness, gentleness, and self control, apart from the claims of Christianity. I appaud you.

 

You should write a book. So others can have this too. You can make the point that this is not an exclusive experience to the claims of Christianity.

 

If we cannot produce something true out side the Bible, that negates the Bible, then the Bible is not proven false. Most arguments against the Bible are use of internal arguments from the Bible itself. But that can be shown to be a matter of interpretation based on assumptions and denies, or mistranslation, or manuscript problems of copies.

 

What???

There isn't any such thing. All claims against the Bible fall into these three issues: A problem of interpertation, a problem of translation, or known manuscript variations.

 

My point being, Christianity stands and falls with the Bible. No Bible, no Christianity.

 

So in order to have an intelligent discussion of how one becomes a Christian, it involves the Bible as the source.

[Vigile]

I find it intersting. And affirming of what I personally know and believe, the refusal to at last humor me, and tell me what one would explain to another person as to how one becomes a Christian? This aversion to do this only supports my view.

 

You finding this affirming is merely grasping for straws since there isn't much else for you to hold on to. I can't speak for the others, but my own aversion to repeating the silly and simple gospel points is just sheer bordom with the subject. As Julian pointed out to you we do understand your view, just don't agree. Mythra already played your little game so now that you are repeating your challenge here arguing that no one has played along it just seems disingenious to me. Whatever.