Angel Posted April 24, 2006 Author Share Posted April 24, 2006 As far as the eyewitness matter with Jesus being alive after being killed, heck, many people believe that Elvis is still alive, many people have seen him and such, but does it make it true? As far as "Heaven's Gates, Hell's Flames" I saw that when they did it here. It made many people cry and cry (me included). All about scaring you into belief. One time, I believe in 2002, there was a play around Halloween time with the same story line. A woman got pissed off and jumped up and yelled that they were all liars, it was all a lie. The pastor asked her to be escorted out. I see where she is coming from now..then, I thought it was the devil interupting what god had in mind.... I wanted to be in a play like that at one time, I am certainly glad that I did not get into it. It is bad enough that I feel the shame of being a sunday school teacher, teaching kids all this garbage. It does get one upset, it really does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Servant Posted April 24, 2006 Share Posted April 24, 2006 The bottom line is...the "eyewitnesses" who wrote the Gospels are/were...purportedly...leaders of the church. Ergo, they had every reason to claim that they saw the very miracle their following was based on. So that, per se, proves nothing. Objective accounts of historians who had nothing to gain by claiming that Jesus died and then returned to life, and led a ministry, would be something potentially different. You can bet that the Pharisees would have written up many things that would have been found refuting these accounts if just one person had come forward saying they did not see Jesus. Suppose they had (or did)...who's to say that the church wouldn't have done its damndest to obliterate of conceal such refutations? Look at how it ("it" being the Catholic church, in this context) went after scientists who dared to contradict its own teachings. Look, for that matter, at the predominant level of respect for truth, and fact, over dogma in nearly every facet of the church today. I would have not thought you one for a conspiracy theory as a good way to refute something. The Catholic church can't even keep the pedophile problem they have quiet; the ressurection of Christ if refuted would have been heard of from somewhere. I am with you on the church not being the most trustworthy of things but someone covering up the other is crazy. The Jewish community would have made sure that the entire world knew that people that were supposed to be witnesses came forward and said it was untrue. I understand you don't agree I have just become more accustom to extremely good arguments that are much more thought out than this one. You keep me on my toes and make me think a lot but the conspiracy of the church seems more hokey to me than believing the bible is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgnosticBob AtheistPants Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 The Jewish community would have made sure that the entire world knew that people that were supposed to be witnesses came forward and said it was untrue. This is a ridiculous argument. Because there are no records of anyone refuting the resurrection it's true? There is no solid evidence that the crucifixion ever took place, much less the resurrection. And if someone had refuted it, the Jews would have made sure everyone knew about it? If the crucifixion had happened at all, then the Jews would have made sure that everyone knew the blasphemer who claimed to be the son of Yahweh had met his end. The only Jewish records of the incident, as I stated before, are in serious doubt as to their authenticity. I don't know why I'm bothering with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 And why are Mathew, Mark, Luke and John the declared eyewitnesses, while Thomas, Judas and Mary are not? Why didn't they name every person that was an eyewitness? Everytime I give a recount of an event I don't name every single person that was there. There are various verses that reference Christ appearing to groups and not naming a particular person. Also, as spoken by another in this thread earlier; the gospels were recorded later but not so much later that nobody would have been left to refute them if they had been false. You can bet that the Pharisees would have written up many things that would have been found refuting these accounts if just one person had come forward saying they did not see Jesus. You do know that the Church compiled the bible and only put in things that support their beliefs,The bible was put together by vote and did not just fall together by divine decree. Of course anyone stating anything different from the eye witness accounts were branded as heretics and most likely jailed or killed. To question the church is the same as questioning gawd, The history of the Christian religion is filled with lots of blood and guts decades after the supposed death of Christ. Nothing new under the sun is an actual literal quote. The Christian belief system is redressed sun/son worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 I would have not thought you one for a conspiracy theory as a good way to refute something. The Catholic church can't even keep the pedophile problem they have quiet; the ressurection of Christ if refuted would have been heard of from somewhere. I am with you on the church not being the most trustworthy of things but someone covering up the other is crazy. The Jewish community would have made sure that the entire world knew that people that were supposed to be witnesses came forward and said it was untrue. I understand you don't agree I have just become more accustom to extremely good arguments that are much more thought out than this one. You keep me on my toes and make me think a lot but the conspiracy of the church seems more hokey to me than believing the bible is true. It seems to me from your posting your quite young and have not done any studying on the power Churches had/have on everyday people. 1) Church Pedophile, was happening Decades before it was brought to public attention, they did a pretty good job at hiding this for years and decades. To question the Church is the same equivalence as questioning god, and the catholic victims didn't want to defame or hurt the church and be run out on a rail or be known as gay and be accused of enticing the priests. You really have no idea. 2) The Catholic Church is the Father of all Christianity and the New Testament. Like it or not, its a fact. It was declared an official religion by Rome. It wasn't until Martin Luther took on the Catholic Church that it split into protestant and from there it split into different sects. King James of Scotland didn't like the catholic bible and put together a more (what he felt) True bible. 3) Please go study the Crusades, inquisitions and other Christian holy wars. Anyone that didn't profess loyalty in love to god and king/Church was a heretic who was worthy of death. To defy or question the king was the same as god, they were equal. Even if people had questions they never stated them publicly for fear of being killed or their families killed for high treason. 4) The Jewish Messiah has YET to come, hence why they are still waiting. The Jewish Messiah is not a half god half man being. the godman concept is only from pagen belife and is nothing Jewish. As I stated previously, the Christian religion is redone SUN worship. (12 disciples following the son = 12 signs of the zodiac that followed the Sun in pagan worship) Morning star/Jesus Christ is the sun/Son. Cross in pagan belief represented north,south east and west, the sun hanging ont he cross is the middle of the sky. Once you study pagan beliefs, (Christmas, Easter, et al) and what not, how those same pagan holy days were spent, you'll see the verbatim copy-cating going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenjaminHaag Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 I would have not thought you one for a conspiracy theory as a good way to refute something. The Catholic church can't even keep the pedophile problem they have quiet; the ressurection of Christ if refuted would have been heard of from somewhere. I was not using a conspiracy theory to refute your claim, I was making the point that attempting to prove the "truth" of an ideology, religious or otherwise, using as evidence the writings of those who are bent on promoting that ideology, is absurd. Do I believe, conclusively, that the Gospels are part of a fraud? No, but neither do I see conclusive evidence that they are not, and herein lies the problem. And when confronted with this question, the vast majority of Christians I have encountered, or whose musings I have had the misfortune to read, have little more to offer than the classic "it's not about facts, it's about faith" dodge. I am with you on the church not being the most trustworthy of things but someone covering up the other is crazy. The Jewish community would have made sure that the entire world knew that people that were supposed to be witnesses came forward and said it was untrue. And you know this, how exactly? I'm going to hold out no hope whatsoever that you have an credible, even theoretical, source... I understand you don't agree I have just become more accustom to extremely good arguments that are much more thought out than this one. You keep me on my toes and make me think a lot[\quote] You're not flirting with me, are you, big guy? Not that, straight and proud though I am, I find that objectionable on principle, but I'm pretty sure that unaddressed homoerotic longings are gonna get you a demerit or two (and if you're lucky, a paddling) back at Raving Fundie Headquarters. Just concerned for my fellow brother in pointless discussion and pseudo-inquiry, yea verily amen... but the conspiracy of the church seems more hokey to me than believing the bible is true. You honestly think that there's more evidence for the Bible having any basis in fact or history, than for the THOUSANDS of chronicled horrors, abuses, lies, and sundry affronts to human decency perpetrated by some form of "Christian" church? I don't know whether to recoil in horror-tinged disbelief, or laugh, or just turn off the computer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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