Why Would God __________?

[Ouroboros]

There is Fundamentalistic Christianity and there is Fundamentalistic Atheism. Both, in my book, are nonsense.

Almond! (for the uninitiated: that's the Chocolate Religion version of "amen")

 

(And just to clarify, the Cute Chocolate Bunny only deals in absolute sweetness and absolute cuteness.)

[Guest Rhino]

Point 1: No one has free will if they don't have omnipotence. A natural disaster is outside the control of a human and has nothing to do with free will. We are not capable of acting up these situations by choice, but God is capable of saving us and does nothing. This has nothing to do with free will.

 

Point 2: If God allows these to happen for a "purpose", again, what lesson is learned by 15,000 people being killed in an earthquake, instead of only 14,999? There is nothing more learned by that one extra death that God was fully capable of saving, but chose not to. This can be applied to almost any painful situation that is allowed to continue. The fact that an evil which had no purpose whatsoever for it happening was allowed by an all powerful, all loving God, completely destroys any possibility of good reasons behind God's inaction. We are left with the paradox.

 

The reason these two apologetic arguments fail to convince my logical mind, is because they are poorly reasoned. They sound much more like excuses to continue to believe, than any sort of credible answers. That is why they are rejected as fallacious.

 

Okay, lets look at these points. I'm still a little unclear about whether you are trying to make these points or if you're saying they are messed up. Personally I think they are messed up.

 

#1 - I don't think free will has anything to do with omnipotence. I don't have to be omnipotent to choose what I believe, or what I think, or how I behave.

 

#2 - I don't think God plays favorites. If he did save the 1 out of 15,000 so that only 14,999 died the very next question would be "well why didn't he save 2" or "what was so special about that one". But thats not my real answer, just a thought :-)

 

My reals answer (or rather suspicion) is that I don't think death, pain, accidents, injustice etc are nearly as important as we make them out to be. I think that our relationship with God is what's important (at least I think that's how God views it).

 

Let me turn the question around a little. Why is 15,000 people getting killed in an earthquake evil? What about that makes it evil? God doesn't promise us a long and healthy life. We live in a messed up world. It just figures that some of that mess is going to get on us.

 

I have to go, my time is running short. I know what I said above is full of holes...I'm just thinking out loud here. Not trying to prove or disprove anything, just pondering.

 

Let me know what you think,

 

r

[Taphophilia]

There is Fundamentalistic Christianity and there is Fundamentalistic Atheism. Both, in my book, are nonsense.

Almond! (for the uninitiated: that's the Chocolate Religion version of "amen")

 

(And just to clarify, the Cute Chocolate Bunny only deals in absolute sweetness and absolute cuteness.)

 

Hans,

 

Are you a Bundamentalist?

 

Taph

[Ouroboros]

Hans,

 

Are you a Bundamentalist?

 

Taph

 

 

 

I didn't get it at first! Yup. I'm an bundamentalist, I think I have to amend my profile.

[AtheistMommy]

Short answer, I don't know for sure. But since I'm looking at logic, here is the logic as I understand it:

 

God wants to and can. He chooses not to because to do so He'd have to control someone's behavior. If He's going to control behavior, where does he stop?

 

Here is a question I struggle with. Why did God do it? Why did He create all of this? If he's going to control behavior then the "Why did He create us" question gets even bigger. I can kind of see some logic in Him creating us if it is about us choosing Him. I loose that logic when/if He were to jump in and also control behavior. If that were the case then the whole exercise seems like a big waste of time to me.

 

According to the bible god controls us. He knows what's going to happen because he's already planned it and created it. There is no such thing as "free will."

[Guest Rhino]

According to the bible god controls us. He knows what's going to happen because he's already planned it and created it. There is no such thing as "free will."

 

I hear you say that, but the fact is that different denominations have differing opinions about that. So if you're going to claim it is "according to the bible" then provide references.

 

My take on it is that IF God controls us and there is no "free will" THEN I think the whole thing is a waste of time and energy. I can't understand why God would go through the exercise if he was going to control everything. Now granted there are a lot of things I don't understand, but still...

 

It makes more sense to me that we do have free will and some choose God and some don't. But even then I still struggle with why did God go through the exercise. But at least with free will in the picture it seems more reasonable.

 

r

[AtheistMommy]

 

#2 - I don't think God plays favorites. If he did save the 1 out of 15,000 so that only 14,999 died the very next question would be "well why didn't he save 2" or "what was so special about that one". But thats not my real answer, just a thought :-)

 

 

Than why is it that most believers say, "You didn't have enough faith" or "we must get as many prayers as possible?" What's the sense in everyone praying for one person if god doesn't play favoirtes? What exactly makes one life more valuable than the other? How exactly does god choose who gets to live and who is going to die?

[Ouroboros]

Rhino, at least you're honest about not knowing or having questions without answers. That's to be true to oneself. Keep it up.

[AtheistMommy]

I hear you say that, but the fact is that different denominations have differing opinions about that. So if you're going to claim it is "according to the bible" then provide references.

 

My take on it is that IF God controls us and there is no "free will" THEN I think the whole thing is a waste of time and energy. I can't understand why God would go through the exercise if he was going to control everything. Now granted there are a lot of things I don't understand, but still...

 

It makes more sense to me that we do have free will and some choose God and some don't. But even then I still struggle with why did God go through the exercise. But at least with free will in the picture it seems more reasonable.

 

r

 

Fair engough, here's your proof.

 

"3Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."

Ephesians 1:4-6 [NIV]

 

"28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"

Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]

 

"[God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, "

2 Timonth 1:9 [NASB]

 

Ecclesiastes 7:13 (old testament) asks, "Consider God's handiwork; who can straighten what He hath made crooked?".

 

The answer as we have seen is that no-one can. God creates people and the world 'crooked'; not due to free will or our choices, but because god, as the proceeding verses state, has made the good times and the bad times and it has made them "well". There is no changing what god has made crooked, because there is no free will!

 

"All people living on the Earth will worship [The Devil], except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to [Jesus]"

Revelations 13:8 [NIV]

 

Hope this helps.

[Guest Rhino]

Than why is it that most believers say, "You didn't have enough faith" or "we must get as many prayers as possible?" What's the sense in everyone praying for one person if god doesn't play favoirtes? What exactly makes one life more valuable than the other? How exactly does god choose who gets to live and who is going to die?

 

Good point. Thats another thing I struggle with. What is the purpose of prayer? If my praying changes what's going to happen, then how does that play with the idea that God knows what's going to happen, and controls everything (see my other post about what I think about him controlling everything). I said before that I didn't think God played favorites. I also don't think he's up in heaven taking polls. I have this mental picture of God sitting there and keeping a tally of how many prayer requests for the Steelers and how many for the Seahawks to win the Super Bowl. Nah, I don't think He takes polls about what to let happen or not happen.

 

Here's what I've come up with: If you'll look at my other post I posed the idea that death, accidents, and other generally bad stuff isn't as big of a deal as we make them out to be. I think that the whole thing is about our relationship with God. So, I don't think our prayers are supposed to be "God change such and such" but more "God, grant so and so peace during this hard time. Give them strength to get through it, etc...".

 

r

[Reverend AtheiStar]

I can think of all kinds of good stuff that would happen if God worked that way. But Christians talk about "free will" and how it would be squashed. What do you think about that? I tend to agree that you can't have a God that stops XYZ or doesn't allow BLANK and at the same time not reduce people to mindless slaves. So it bugs me when I see logical rational people using (what I percieve) to be irrational, illogical arguments.

 

Looking for some logic...

 

Thanks.

 

r

 

Free will, under Christian mythology, never existed. It'd just be an illusion. Yahweh, knowing all (omniscience) knew everything that would happen billions and billions of years before he would have created anything. This would include his own actions. It get's better, though. Not only is everything predetermined, but it'd all be controlled by Yahweh, too! This can clearly be seen in these verses:

 

Isaiah 45

 

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

I like to imagine the god character like a Hindu god with billions of arms playing with billions of game controllers and watching a gigantic screen as our "free" lives unfold, totally unaware that we're not in control of anything.

 

There are many other verses which support this, but my wife, AM, has already posted them. I just thought I'd drop in my favorite as it appears no one else did.

 

What is the purpose of prayer? If my praying changes what's going to happen, then how does that play with the idea that God knows what's going to happen, and controls everything (see my other post about what I think about him controlling everything).

 

Why pray? Well, again you would have absolutely no choice over whether you prayed or what words you used. No matter what you did that's exactly what you were seen as doing billions of years ago. It'd all be an illusion. We'd all just be actors in a movie that was made long ago.

[Guest Rhino]

Free will, under Christian mythology, never existed. It'd just be an illusion. Yahweh, knowing all (omniscience) knew everything that would happen billions and billions of years before he would have created anything. This would include his own actions. It get's better, though. Not only is everything predetermined, but it'd all be controlled by Yahweh, too!

 

I don't think Omniscience is the same as controlling everything. It is possible to know all things without controlling all things.

 

But all of that aside, let's stop this. Doesn't it seem kind of silly for us to be discussing this. I mean you don't believe the verses you're quoting, and I have a different view of them. So, what's the point?

 

BANG! shot that rabbit in the head, let's get off this rabbit trail and back to the original logic issue.

 

Thanks,

 

r

[Ouroboros]

Free will, under Christian mythology, never existed. It'd just be an illusion. Yahweh, knowing all (omniscience) knew everything that would happen billions and billions of years before he would have created anything. This would include his own actions. It get's better, though. Not only is everything predetermined, but it'd all be controlled by Yahweh, too!

 

I don't think Omniscience is the same as controlling everything. It is possible to know all things without controlling all things.

Actually RAS didn't say Omniscience is about controlling, it's only about knowing. But there is a problem with knowing beforehand what is going to happen, since knowing what's going to happen, you know it won't happen any other or different way.

 

Let's say I knew for a fact, that tomorrow at 5 PM I'm going to lift my cup of coffee and take a sip.

 

Time goes by until tomorrow, and 5 PM get's close. Now if I have a choice and free will, but knowing what I'm going to do, what will happen if I don't lift the coffee cup? I professed free will, but nullified my foreknowledge. Because I knew beforehand I would lift the cup, but I didn't, so the "prophetic" notion was false, and I truly didn't know.

 

Then of course you say, that I knew I would change my mind, and lets play with that instead. I knew I would change my mind of not lifting the cup, but say the 5 PM comes and I lift it anyway. I have used my free will to erase precognition again!!!

 

Complete and Full Precognition or omniscience can not co-exist with complete free will. Omniscience is equal to impotence.

 

But all of that aside, let's stop this. Doesn't it seem kind of silly for us to be discussing this. I mean you don't believe the verses you're quoting, and I have a different view of them. So, what's the point?

For the fun of it! I think you show a good side of actually admitting to not knowing everything, and so do we, we know that we don't know, and that kind of honesty will reward itself sooner or later.

 

BANG! shot that rabbit in the head, let's get off this rabbit trail and back to the original logic issue.

Eh? I think it goes hand in hand. The rabbit and the logic issue are the one and the same.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Free will, under Christian mythology, never existed. It'd just be an illusion. Yahweh, knowing all (omniscience) knew everything that would happen billions and billions of years before he would have created anything. This would include his own actions. It get's better, though. Not only is everything predetermined, but it'd all be controlled by Yahweh, too!

 

I don't think Omniscience is the same as controlling everything. It is possible to know all things without controlling all things.

 

But all of that aside, let's stop this. Doesn't it seem kind of silly for us to be discussing this. I mean you don't believe the verses you're quoting, and I have a different view of them. So, what's the point?

 

BANG! shot that rabbit in the head, let's get off this rabbit trail and back to the original logic issue.

 

Thanks,

 

r

 

Well, I'm discussing the particulars of a certain mythology. It matters to me because most of the population of the Earth believe in this stuff. It's really not relevant that I don't. If we were discussing Norse mythology would you voice a similar objection?

 

 

Omniscience is equal to impotence.

 

LOL! I love it! It'd make a great bumper sticker!

[Ouroboros]

Omniscience is equal to impotence.

 

LOL! I love it! It'd make a great bumper sticker!

Yeah! But few would get it. It's like the secret handshake for the Skeptic Fundamentalist Agnostics Society. (just made it up, there's no SFAS. Don't want to scare the weak hearted Christians here... )

 

 

-edit-

 

One of the other questions about God's ability to act or not act is if he really is that omnipotent? I can prove that (without even knowing if there is a God) that God (in the context and definition of Judeo-Christian concepts) can not be omnipotent.

 

If sin is to disobey God, can God sin?

[AtheistMommy]

Omniscience is equal to impotence.

 

LOL! I love it! It'd make a great bumper sticker!

Yeah! But few would get it. It's like the secret handshake for the Skeptic Fundamentalist Agnostics Society. (just made it up, there's no SFAS. Don't want to scare the weak hearted Christians here... )

 

 

-edit-

 

One of the other questions about God's ability to act or not act is if he really is that omnipotent? I can prove that (without even knowing if there is a God) that God (in the context and definition of Judeo-Christian concepts) can not be omnipotent.

 

If sin is to disobey God, can God sin?

 

That's exactly why we should do it. It will make others want to learn our "secret handshake."

[Ouroboros]

That's exactly why we should do it. It will make others want to learn our "secret handshake."

Darn, and I'm not even sure I know the secret handshake yet... probably because it's so friggin secret that no one knows it...

[Reverend AtheiStar]

That's exactly why we should do it. It will make others want to learn our "secret handshake."

Darn, and I'm not even sure I know the secret handshake yet... probably because it's so friggin secret that no one knows it...

 

 

It's so secret you must hide it from yourself! You'll only know it when you start shaking a member's hand and right after will instantly forget! lol... You'll still recognize them as a member, though.

 

Omniscience is equal to impotence.

 

LOL! I love it! It'd make a great bumper sticker!

Yeah! But few would get it. It's like the secret handshake for the Skeptic Fundamentalist Agnostics Society. (just made it up, there's no SFAS. Don't want to scare the weak hearted Christians here... )

 

 

-edit-

 

One of the other questions about God's ability to act or not act is if he really is that omnipotent? I can prove that (without even knowing if there is a God) that God (in the context and definition of Judeo-Christian concepts) can not be omnipotent.

 

If sin is to disobey God, can God sin?

 

That's exactly why we should do it. It will make others want to learn our "secret handshake."

 

Hmmm, maybe you can show me that when you get home!

[AtheistMommy]

 

Hmmm, maybe you can show me that when you get home!

 

 

Maybe, but I'd have to kill you after. You know, so you don't leak it.

[Ouroboros]

 

Hmmm, maybe you can show me that when you get home!

 

 

Maybe, but I'd have to kill you after. You know, so you don't leak it.

Get a room, will'ya?

 

 

.

 

.

 

.

 

[Reverend AtheiStar]

 

Hmmm, maybe you can show me that when you get home!

 

 

Maybe, but I'd have to kill you after. You know, so you don't leak it.

 

 

Oh, of course! I'd have it no other way!

[Poonis]

Anyway, I'd be interested for some of you more logical thinkers to apply that logic to the effects of what would happen if God did step in and fixed XYZ from #1. Or what would life be like if God didn't allow the BLANK from #1.

 

Axiomatically speaking, which god?

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Anyway, I'd be interested for some of you more logical thinkers to apply that logic to the effects of what would happen if God did step in and fixed XYZ from #1. Or what would life be like if God didn't allow the BLANK from #1.

 

Axiomatically speaking, which god?

 

I love this question because it gets at so many other problmes that are just lying under the surface. Like, How come Christians call their god, "God?" "God," technically speaking, would be his species. Shouldn't they call him by his name, Yahweh? Do I call my boss, Human or Homo Sapien or Primate? Nope, sure don't. I call her by her name. It also brings up just how many other gods and goddesses they don't believe in. What's that? You don't believe in Ganesh, the elephant-headed Hindu god? Gee willakers! Neither do I! lol...

 

 

 

Hmmm, maybe you can show me that when you get home!

 

 

Maybe, but I'd have to kill you after. You know, so you don't leak it.

Get a room, will'ya?

 

 

.

 

.

 

.

 

 

We have a whole house. But she was at school and I at home with the kids as we wrote this.

[Guest Rhino]

Well, I'm discussing the particulars of a certain mythology. It matters to me because most of the population of the Earth believe in this stuff. It's really not relevant that I don't. If we were discussing Norse mythology would you voice a similar objection?

 

 

That is another reason to drop that particular discussion, but we can keep going if you want. It isn't that I don't think we should discuss the topic, it's that I think you're misrepresenting who all believe it. To be more percise, I think you're wrong about "most of the population of earth" believing what you're saying about predestination and free will.

 

I live in bible belt midwest USA (for another time and another topic, but I've also looked at the whole idea of believing something just because that's the only thing you were taught...) and have gone to manyy churches, and have known many Christians. From my experience at Baptist, Christian, and Non-Denominational churches the stuff you're spouting isn't being taught. I don't particularly want to get into why or why not because I don't know. But to claim "this is what most of the people believe" I think is inaccurate according to my experience.

 

r

[Japedo]

Free Will

 

 

I hate to state the obvious however, Where is you find god supposedly gives free will to begin with? There is no verse stating such.

 

In stating that, There are many instances in the bible were one persons free will was over powered by god, then punishment followed because of that force.

 

One example: The Pharo of Egypt. He had zero choice when to 'let the people go' as god kept hardening his heart. The people were forced to suffer for it. Pharo had no free choice in the matter and people were killed, and tortured because of gods ultimate control over pharos heart.

 

another example. Bloodlines in the bible mean everything. It's also stated if you come from certain blood lines your cursed, again we don't have free will to which family we're born into. Nothing in the bible promotes freewill so I have a very difficult time understanding Christians who use it for debate purposes.