Why Would God __________?

[Amethyst]

I agree whole heartedly. However IF (1)the Bible is true and we are eternal beings and this life is just a "mist", "vapor", "blink" whatever you want to say to indicate it is short compared to eternity. AND (2) we know that in times of crises people turn to God (look at church attendance after 911). THEN it makes sense to me that God would allow a (relatively)short term suffering in order to bring you back to Him.

 

Okay, think about this.

 

If the Bible is real, how is it ethical or moral to torture anyone in hell for all of eternity for any reason? How is it moral to torture someone for all of eternity for not being sorry enough for their "sins," not being a Christian or else being a member of the wrong Christian denomination, being gay (even if you are Christian and you happened to pick the right Christian denomination), being born in another country where Christianity is not the predominant religion so you're not Christian, or even committing an atrocity on earth?

 

Now, I'm not saying that criminals should get off the hook by any means. But eternal torture? Why not just kill them? And if Osama bin Laden should happen to convert to Christianity before he dies, he supposedly gets off the hook entirely for causing 9/11, assuming he picked the One True Denomination, whatever that may be.

 

The Bible certainly doesn't tell us whether we should be Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, or what have you. Yet they all say they're the right one. But if you happen to pick wrong, you burn forever.

 

And even if you're a liberal who doesn't believe in the torture myth, if you believe hell is death instead, that still does not justify it. Doesn't justify killing people for any of the above, except perhaps Osama. But with the exception of Osama, the rest are what the fundy churches judge you for and say you're going to hell for.

 

The entire concept of heaven and hell is an unjust system if you really think about it.

[Ouroboros]

I'm not saying that Christianity owns morality. I'm saying that if there is no one standard, then anything can be moral.

So is child abuse moral?

 

Is it moral to kill a disobedient kid?

 

Is racism and slavery moral?

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

I'm not saying that Christianity owns morality. I'm saying that if there is no one standard, then anything can be moral.

So is child abuse moral?

 

Is it moral to kill a disobedient kid?

 

Is racism and slavery moral?

 

Which is why I told him to be careful of where he stepped next. And I fail to see the problem where "anything can be moral" and why there has to be one standard. Whoever determines that one single standard is usually a fundamentalist dictator.

[mwc]

Is Free Will the ability to choose or make choices? If so....

But what is predestination by comparison? The lack of choice? How about we change the terms a bit so that you see them differently? How about foreknowledge as this is what you're truly arguing with the assertion that god "knows" but does not "force" choices?

 

So does foreknowledge allow for free will? The answer is no. Let's say that you were now magically a prophet. Not only a prophet but one that had all the knowledge of what would happen over the next 24 hours and you were 100% accurate. So you go about your life and people are doing exactly as you knew they would. Did you cause it? No. You had no hand in it. Can these people do anything that you did not foresee? No. They are locked into exactly what you knew would happen a day earlier. So in this way they were predestined to perform only those actions you knew they would do. To them, however, as they did not have your "gift" went about their business making choices and doing whatever and excersizing "free will." It was an illusion only since you knew what had to happen and they did not. Even if you told someone exactly what would happen that act would have also been been known to you a day prior and neither you or the other person could avoid having that conversation. That person, even knowing that they'd turn left instead of right at the next stop light, could not no matter how hard they tried turn right without making you in error and since you are never wrong they must turn left.

 

Can you see that free will is an illusion since god knows what has to happen because if it doesn't happen god is wrong? It's not all about your ability to choose this or that and it's not about god forcing you to do this or that it's about god knowing everything with absolute certainty (even if you do not) and you doing something else entirely. The fact is if you truly did something god did not know about he is not omniscient and that's a violation of the very definition of your god. You simply want free will to explain the original sin but since god knew that would occur prior to making the world Adam and Eve did not surprise god and, in fact, had to make that choice. Again, not because god himself forced them to do so with his magical powers but in that god already knew it was going to happen and that foreknowledge locked them into a series of events that they had to follow or else god would be shown to not possess all knowledge. Which way do you want it? Do you want true free will, which means doing something god could not foresee, or a good that does not know the future with 100% accuracy and certainty? The choice is yours.

 

God made demands upon Pharaoh which went against the monarch’s selfish interests, hence, in that sense God hardened his heart.

 

Later in the Bible Pharaoh resisted what God commanded and hardened his own heart.

I'm not going to look it up but you're forgetting the part of the story where "Pharoah" does decide to let the people go but gods makes him go back on that decision because he's building up to the 10th plague to kill children to show his mighty power to Pharoah and Pharoah's decision to let them go would prevent that tragedy.

 

This story highlights the contradiction others are getting at with free will. Pharoah could not simply decide to let them go as god knew an eternity before that Pharoah would, at that very moment in time, change his mind and god knew that he would have to do something to alter that decision. To god this was just reading from the script but to Pharoah this was him exercising free will. Who won that point? Well, god did since he knew what was going to happen on the next page and Pharoah didn't. More to the point though, Pharoah said "Go" and god said "Not yet." God played an active, not passive, role in this story so free will or not he interfered and got his way over Pharoah's wish to be done with the whole stupid mess.

 

mwc

[mwc]

Here is a thought that just occurred to me: What is "evil"? How do you define it? By what standard to you base it?

 

Based on that question here is another thought I just had. If God is good, moral, and just then anything that was against God would be evil. Thus by God being in existence and allowing us to choose whether or not to go against Him, he "allows/creates" evil.

Yes, what is evil? This is a relative and not absolute term so you're going to be working quite awhile to properly answer it.

 

To answer your assertion then, if god is good (absolutely, totally, 100% good) and nothing but good how did that tree in the garden get there? God is only good. Keep that in mind as you read. Good, good, good. Evil, according to you is the absence of good (and god is good and does not possess evil). So god could have only planted a Tree of knowledge of good and good not good and evil. However, god must possess knowledge of evil to have placed the tree. Evil did not suddenly appear out of nowhere and since there was no one around when he planted that tree it wasn't us not doing his will that brought that knowledge into existance. Could it have been the devil? Doubtful. He was in heaven where god's will is always done. This is the perfect, happy, place you want to go to. It is perfection plain and simple. But apparently you can aquire pride and start rebellions even though the knowledge of pride and going against the glory of god (that you're witnessing first hand) is possible. Sadly this can't be true either as once the fruit from the tree was taken god comments "they have become like us" stating that the knowledge of good and evil is within god and heaven and short of the magic powers this makes us just like god. Apparently he did not want that...or did he since he had the foreknowledge that it would happen and did not stop it. Could he have stopped it? Not even if he somehow wanted to since god is locked into his own script so the idea of free will and god being all good are not workable based on the biblical evidence.

 

Pull your head out of the bible and see it for what it is. It's just a book. It contains the flawed ideas of men and hands them out via a "higher" authority so that people would listen instead of simply laughing or klling those men. I read in another post of your where you tried telling us that so many people believed it for so long so it can't be wrong. People believed a flat earth for centuries. Were they right? Nope. Why believe it? Because it was it was what was taught and reinforced by society. You're in a xian society and it is what's taught and reinforced. This doesn't make it right.

 

mwc

 

 

It then must come from a combination of that person's personality, experiences, education, and other factors.

 

It basically sounds like I'm hearing that "What's right for you may not be right for me", and if that is your position then it doesn't make sense to call something immoral because it may not be immoral to the other person. If you are going to call something immoral then I think you need to have a set of moral standards (in my opinion found in the Bible).

Take some classes in sociology and then come back to discuss this. The short answer is that we each have personal morals. Since we are part of a group the morals we can agree upon become that group's morals and on up the chain to an eventual global set of morals (this hasn't happened yet). This doesn't mean there won't be splinter groups with their own custom sets but they will still agree on the big ones (a fairly universal moral is to not murder and I've yet to see an actual group of murderers form to condone it even though murder is done by those who condemn it...we're talking about a big picture view here).

 

Morals don't come from a book. They are recorded in them. These books are a reflection of a groups morals and not the source.

 

mwc

[AtheistMommy]

Why? If you throw out the Bible, then why is anything "immoral"? If you don't use the Bible as the moral standard, then what standard to you use?

 

I don't need a book to tell me what is and isn't moral. You don't either for that matter. My example was a general one, if you stand by and watch someone die and do nothing, does this not make you part of the problem instead of the solution?

 

They've not been proven to me. And if you believe the Bible Christianity was the first belief with the first God.

 

Have you looked into the history of Christianity?

 

 

Accounts that have been told in earlier stories of different bibles? Accounts that happened after the fact? The dates don't add up.

 

Examples???

 

I don't have time go get into this right now, so I'll get back to you as soon as I can with more.

 

What does cults using drugs have to do with anything we've talked about? Are you claiming that Christians all across america are using drugs to enhance their religious experience? Are you claiming that a large percentage of the pastors, preachers, priests across America have some sort of frontal lobe brain damage?

 

This is getting weird.

 

r

 

Yes. Cults today still use drugs to aid their religious experience. You'd be surprised how easy it is to damage your frontal lobe. The mere fact that they use drugs creates frontal lobe damage. Alcoholic drinks can give you fronal lobe damage. It doesn't fully mature until about the age of 30 and degrades shortly after. So, yes, I am saying that a whole lot of religious authorities have some form of frontal lobe damage, and it shows.

[Japedo]

 

 

 

Is Free Will the ability to choose or make choices? If so....

 

 

 

Joshua 24:15

15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

 

So who are these other gods and what powers do they have, seems your god freely admits there are others in this statement.

 

Proverbs 3:31

Do not envy a violent man or choose any of his ways,

 

Does this also hold true about Christ when he says he doesn't bring peace but the sword? If not why not? Or how God himself smites those he felt less worthy to be breathing? How about those Egyptian children who weren't old enough to sin but were killed because of birth order? What example would god have us all follow I wonder?

 

John 7:17

If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

 

 

Again, How does one determine what is gods will? A Taliban fanatic believes he's doing gods will when he straps on his explosives. Shooters of Abortions clinics 'feel' they are doing gods will when they kill the dr's. Each of these dangerous people have gods own words to back up their crimes. Because these people act on their perception of gods will do you think they should all be honored and treated as holy? the gods will argument really is a no-fly, it's a copout to negate any responsibility for ones asinine actions.

 

I did a simple search for the word "choose" and in the NIV Bible there are 79 instances. Granted many of those are about God choosing something, but many of them are about people choosing something.

 

Similarly I did a search for the word "choice" which produced another 47 instances.

 

 

I believe the focus was on our 'Free will', I didn't realize one could switch horse mid-discussion. Are we talking about choice or are we talking about God giving us free will?? Do you consider them the same? Again I will ask why Pharo wasn't given his Free Will/ his personal choice?

Try other simple words, like the word kill for example or Hate. Why the NIV may I ask? Do you feel that is closest to the original as possible?

 

I guess that proves that if you ever take several million Jews into slavery that God might take away your choices. Just kidding....

 

What about other slave owners? heck even in the commandments it gives directions how to treat your 'slave' Why is not this supposed just god against all forms of slavery? The bible is very selective who gets the prizes and who gets the bitch work. It has an extremely tribal mentality. Justice only stands to the chosen ones, with everything falling to their favor, everyone else gets the shit end of the stick because they aren't gods favorite. No one looking at the bible objectively or fairly can come to the conclusion that all are treated fair and just. People are rewarded HUGE REWARDS for screwing over their family members,

 

example: Jacob stole his brothers birthright, and instead of justice prevailing, The Theft stands and is blessed regardless about how it was obtained. The victim gets the shit end of the stick and well... who cares? God obviously doesn't.

 

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for sex crimes, then Lot runs to the hills his wife was killed on the journey for looking back, then he gets it on with his two daughters and plants his seed in them, and this apparently isn't a 'sex crime' and the perpetrator is looked at as righteous... WTF? His sex crimes are not even addressed, however the children of those city's were murdered for not being righteous enough.

 

Again I could go on but I digress..

 

Scripture says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. It doesn't say how. You assume this to mean that God took away his choice. I don't know if that's how he did it or not. Are there other possibilities about how it could have happened? Sure.

 

 

I don't assume anything, It does say how and why and is the source of encouragement to Moses. This is not up to some obscure loose interpretation of one translation it says it repeatedly in just about all. Look it up yourself, Exodus 4:21, 7:3, 7:13, 9:12, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:4, 14:8 One thing I find with most apologist is they take a verse here and a verse there and side step the hard stuff. There is no debating the fact that god not only HARDENED Pharos heart, he Killed and tortured the citizens of Egypt because of that. You can say it was for the better, but for the better of whom? Isn't Justice suppose to prevail blindly? Aren't all suppose to be equal in the eye of their creator?

Do I have control over you? No. Could I "harden your heart" to a certain idea, or action? Possibly.

 

 

The Egyptian magicians, attempting to duplicate Moses’ signs, added to Pharaoh’s confusion, which also lead to a hardening of his heart.

 

So if a person is confused it's necessary to punish them instead of clarifying? In what world? By this logic kids that get confused about math should not be clarified, but should be punished for being confused...

 

Lastly, let me get this straight? God can allow Moses to perform magic tricks, but no one can compete else they be smited? Why would god allow Moses to do such tricks that he knew could be and had been duplicated already if he was god? Why didn't he just wow them and make a mountain form outside the window or something? Defy gravity, something that David Copperfield couldn't even do? God being all knowing already knew the snake/rod/snake trick had been done, it's the rabbit in the hat of its day YAWNnnn...

 

r

[mwc]

It makes more sense to me that we do have free will and some choose God and some don't. But even then I still struggle with why did God go through the exercise. But at least with free will in the picture it seems more reasonable.

Here's another example of god vs. free will that I just read a few minutes ago:

 

Acts 2

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

 

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

What Peter says here, right after they all get the spirit, is pretty revealing to the whole of xianity.

 

First, jesus is simply "a man approved of God." He also was simply a conduit that god used to do miracles and did none of his own power. That's really not good for modern xians.

 

The middle verse says that god had a predetermined plan and complete foreknowledge of the events surrounding the taking and crucifion of jesus. This strongly implies that god "locked" everyone into a certain set of actions that Had to take place. God knew that Satan would possess Judas. Not only did he know this but it was part of his predertimed plan. Where's Judas' choice? The bible never says that Judas asked Satan into him or anything. Satan mearly does it and god does not step in to save Judas from his terrible fate. So did Judas use his free will to betray jesus? The bible indicates that he did not. Satan took that will away and god allowed it to happen. Judas then was simply a puppet at this point doing the will of god via Satan (Satan also locked into executing god's plan maybe even against his will...I mean if you were Satan would you help with the plan that leads to your demise? I doubt it.)

 

Finally we see that god raised jesus. Jesus did not overcome death on his own but being dead required some outside help. Not such a triumph after all since god did for jesus what jesus did for Lazerus (so I guess this makes him a messiah too since he did it first).

 

There's also plenty of verses that support the "elect" further shooting down the theory of free will.

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

So did Judas use his free will to betray jesus? The bible indicates that he did not. Satan took that will away and god allowed it to happen. Judas then was simply a puppet at this point doing the will of god via Satan (Satan also locked into executing god's plan maybe even against his will...I mean if you were Satan would you help with the plan that leads to your demise? I doubt it.)

(sidetrack)

An observation on this problem. Let's say Satan did it because he didn't know what was going to happen (common answer from Christians), ie. Satan of course is not omniscient like God.

 

Then it raises another dilemma, and that's how Christians can defend the Horus and other mythologies by saying that Satan copy-cat-ed the "salvation" story into other mythologies before Jesus death. That would mean Satan must've known the events and outcome too, hundreds of years before Jesus! Could this mean Satan actually is omniscient too, and he's basically just another incarnation of God? They're not 3 but 4 Gods in the Christian polytheism?

(end of sidetrack)

[AtheistMommy]

They've not been proven to me. And if you believe the Bible Christianity was the first belief with the first God.

 

First, I don't believe in the bible so I don't follow the "hold no gods over me" crap. Nor do I follow the "Kill everyone who doesn't believe as you do" crap. We can be sure that Atheism came first since we are born without belief in any gods and goddesses and have to be taught. However, any smart man/woman would never admit their lack of belief back in these days since it was moral to kill those who didn't believe as you did, God said so.

 

The origins of Hinduism can be traced to the Indus Valley civilization sometime between 4000 and 2500 BCE

 

Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i faith all originated with a divine covenant between the God of the ancient Israelites and Abraham around 2000 BCE.

 

Zoroastrianism was founded by Zarathushtra (Zoroaster) in Persia which followed an aboriginal polytheistic religion at the time, 1000 BCE.

 

Buddhism developed out of the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama who, in 535 BCE, reached enlightenment and assumed the title Buddha.

 

Shinto is an ancient Japanese religion, closely tied to nature, which recognizes the existance of various "Kami", nature dieties, 500+ BCE.

 

K'ung Fu Tzu (Confucius) was born in 551 BCE in the state of Lu in China.

 

The founder of the Jain community was Vardhamana, the last Jina in a series of 24 who lived in East India. He attained enlightenment after 13 years of deprivation and committed the act of salekhana, fasting to death, in 420 BCE.

 

Taoism became a religion in 440 CE when it was adopted as a state religion.

 

Christianity started out as a breakaway sect of Judaism nearly 2000 years ago, 30+ CE.

 

Islam was founded in 622 CE by Muhammad the Prophet, in Makkah (also spelled Mecca).

 

 

The Sikh faith was founded by Shri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the Punjab area, now Pakistan. He began preaching the way to enlightenment and God after receiving a vision, 1500 CE.

 

The Bahá'í Faith arose from Islam in the 1800s based on the teachings of Baha'u'llah and is now a distinct worldwide faith.

[Ouroboros]

Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i faith all originated with a divine covenant between the God of the ancient Israelites and Abraham around 2000 BCE.

 

Zoroastrianism was founded by Zarathushtra (Zoroaster) in Persia which followed an aboriginal polytheistic religion at the time, 1000 BCE.

I thought Zoroastrianism was older than Judaism?

[AtheistMommy]

Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i faith all originated with a divine covenant between the God of the ancient Israelites and Abraham around 2000 BCE.

 

Zoroastrianism was founded by Zarathushtra (Zoroaster) in Persia which followed an aboriginal polytheistic religion at the time, 1000 BCE.

I thought Zoroastrianism was older than Judaism?

 

 

I'm human, I could be wrong about the date. But I looked it up and that's what it said.

[Ouroboros]

I'm human, I could be wrong about the date. But I looked it up and that's what it said.

Okay. I believe you. I just need to readjust the "knowledge database" in my head.

[AtheistMommy]

I'm human, I could be wrong about the date. But I looked it up and that's what it said.

Okay. I believe you. I just need to readjust the "knowledge database" in my head.

 

 

Yeah, just shows you're human too

[Ouroboros]

Yeah, just shows you're human too

Damn! I've been exposed!!! My Godhood is gone forever!

 

 

(Oops! We're in colosseum, I better hold back my stupid lame jokes... )

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Guys, let's be serious.

 

Am I really hearing someone say that:

 

"I make peace, and create evil"

 

Means the same thing as:

 

"I the Lord God make you say, do, and think everything that you say, do and think."

 

 

Make peace = Is the one behind everything peaceful. He's the puppet master pulling all the strings. If it's good, he did it. Create evil = Is the one behind everything evil. He's the god with the controller. If it's evil, he did it.

 

For a group of people who question everything and don't trust scripture, I just think that is a pretty big leap.

 

Um, we are speaking about a god here, right? I think within mythology, nothing is a big leap.

 

Here is a thought that just occurred to me: What is "evil"? How do you define it? By what standard to you base it?

 

It's subjective. What's evil to one is great to another. For example, the Tsunami that killed the large amount of Muslims not too long ago. Some Christians thought this was your god's way of punishing these believers in Allah. In other words, they thought it was a good thing. To many more others this disaster was considered evil. According to the Bible, whether one considers it good or evil, he was behind it. He created evil.

 

Based on that question here is another thought I just had. If God is good, moral, and just then anything that was against God would be evil. Thus by God being in existence and allowing us to choose whether or not to go against Him, he "allows/creates" evil.

 

That's a big if. The Bible paints your god as completely evil. From killing millions of innocents in a flood, to killing thousands for touching the ark of the covenant, to killing people with plagues, to killing his own son (creates evil, remember?) he's all about killing. And that's the short list! Hell, he created both Satan (and Hell) knowing full well what he'd do. What kind of loving god designs and implements a subterranean torture chamber?

 

English never was my strong subject (Math and Science were more to my liking), but in the sentence:

 

"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

 

To me "all these things" refers to all the things just listed (form light, create darkness, bring prosperity, create disaster). It doesn't seem to me to mean that He does ALL THINGS in each of these categories of things.

 

Is not making peace/bringing prosperity and creating evil/disaster everything? You have the good and the bad and this verse clearly states that your god would be the puppet master behind it all. Why can't you accept this?

 

Why? If you throw out the Bible, then why is anything "immoral"? If you don't use the Bible as the moral standard, then what standard to you use?

 

How is the Bible moral? Have you read it? It personally sickens me simply because it's so immoral! My question to you is, how can you be moral with a Bible in your hand? That's a much better question.

 

What standards do I use? Well, since morality is learned, I use all that I've learned, personally and as an observer. From my life experiences I can judge the Bible as immoral. I'll give more than enough evdience if you need it.

[Guest Rhino]

Make peace = Is the one behind everything peaceful. He's the puppet master pulling all the strings.

If it's good, he did it. Create evil = Is the one behind everything evil. He's the god with the controller.

If it's evil, he did it.

 

You are interpreting this to fit your argument (granted we all do that from time to time). I'm just saying that

I see it meaning something else, and from that perspective it invalidates your argument. So since we can't agree on

what this scripture does or doesn't mean, why don't we sit it assside and try to prove or disprove the point using

other resources.

 

 

Here is a thought that just occurred to me: What is "evil"? How do you define it? By what

standard to you base it?

 

It's subjective. What's evil to one is great to another.

 

Based on that question here is another thought I just had. If God is good, moral, and just then

anything that was against God would be evil. Thus by God being in existence and allowing us to choose

whether or not to go against Him, he "allows/creates" evil.

 

That's a big if. The Bible paints your god as completely evil. From killing millions of innocents in

a flood, to killing thousands for touching the ark of the covenant, to killing people with plagues, to

killing his own son (creates evil, remember?) he's all about killing. And that's the short list! Hell,

he created both Satan (and Hell) knowing full well what he'd do. What kind of loving god designs and

implements a subterranean torture chamber?

 

This totally cracks me up. On the one hand evil is subjective, on the other hand the Bible paints God as completely evil.

That's just too funny.

 

Listen, there have been a lot of posts on here and if you add them all up the collective "ex-christians" have posed hundreds of questions. I could spend the better part of the next month trying to address all of them.

 

Thats not going to happen and it's not why I'm here. I thought I made it clear earlier, but let me restate why I'm here now to see if we can focus a little better.

 

I'm interested in the logic argument. I see posts on here all the time about how "Christianity isn't for smart people", and how this doesn't make sense and that doesn't make sense. I've stated in this thread that I have my own questions. One of my talents is seeing all sides of a situation or argument. So while I see the points that have been made I do have (what I perceive to be) reasonable responses. Having said that I'm a fairly logical person and if in fact I'm being illogical or irrational, the thought of that being a possiblity bugs me.

 

So I guess I'm asking for help here. Show me where I'm being illogical. So if we could refocus on one or two topics it would help me not ignore the majority of posts.

 

 

Why? If you throw out the Bible, then why is anything "immoral"? If you don't use the Bible as the moral standard, then what standard to you use?

 

How is the Bible moral? Have you read it? It personally sickens me simply because it's so immoral! My question to you is, how can you be moral with a Bible in your hand? That's a much better question.

 

What standards do I use? Well, since morality is learned, I use all that I've learned, personally and as an observer. From my life experiences I can judge the Bible as immoral. I'll give more than enough evdience

if you need it.

 

Based on your earlier comments it isn't a valid statement to call the Bible (or anything) immoral. If you're going to take the stance that morality is subjective then you loose the option of stating anything as being immoral. You just can't have it both ways.

 

------------------------

 

So I leave the thread in your hands. I'll check back in a day or so.

 

r

[Skankboy]

Based on your earlier comments it isn't a valid statement to call the Bible (or anything) immoral. If you're going to take the stance that morality is subjective then you loose the option of stating anything as being immoral. You just can't have it both ways.

 

Not true. It would be illogical to state anything is absolutely moral or immoral, that's the point. To him, the Bible, when taken as a whole, is immoral. To you it isn't. This is the definition of a relative morality.

 

IMOHO,

[Reverend AtheiStar]

You are interpreting this to fit your argument (granted we all do that from time to time). I'm just saying that I see it meaning something else, and from that perspective it invalidates your argument.

 

That's usually the way arguments work. One side presents their view and the other presents their view. I wouldn't say it's invalidated. I'd just say that you disagree. I haven't seen any convincing evidence from your side saying that it doesn't mean what I think it means.

 

So since we can't agree on what this scripture does or doesn't mean, why don't we sit it assside and try to prove or disprove the point using other resources.

 

We've already done this. But sure, I'm up for doing it, too, as it was my wife was the one last time who brought up all the verses that conclusively point to a predeterminist mythology. This site explains it very well and so I'll just leave it in her qualified hands and come back in with my comments where needed:

 

http://www.vexen.co.uk//religion/christianity_freewill.html

 

Christianity says Humans have No Free Will

By Vexen Crabtree 2005 May 02

 

1. The Bible Affirms Predeterminism and Denies Free Will

 

If there is a God, then that God has no free will and no-one else has free will. This is true for the existence of any standard monotheistic God, not only the Christian one. The rest of this page is specifically about the Christian God because not only does the existence of God logically, philosophically and theologically deny the possibility of free will, but the Bible also says that there is no free will! Examining the writings of St Paul, the Biblical books of Ephesians, Romans, 2 Timothy, 2 Thessalonians and Revelations, we see that God's plan overrides our free will; those that do good do the specific good that God predestined them to do, and all others are ruled by Satan because God sends "powerful delusions" to them. The Christian Bible frequently states that God creates our future and decides our fates, no matter what our own will is. It constantly denies that we have free will.

 

2. Ephesians

 

'Ephesians' in the Christian Bible is a letter written around 61CE or 62CE by an unknown author claiming to be Paul. Some historians believe the author based this letter on the letter of Paul to Colossians. [Roberts, 1990]

 

 

"3Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."

 

Ephesians 1:4-6 [NIV]

 

It is only through Jesus Christ, say Christians, that Human beings can enter heaven. (Hence why Christianity is called what it is). The verse above says that God has blessed "us" with Christ. The "us" are those who God chose, before creation, to be "holy and blameless". You can only enter heaven if you are blameless, without sin, and to do that you need Jesus. But you only have Jesus if God has chosen you as one of the ones who is blessed with Jesus. It specifically says, next, that God has predetermined particular chosen people to be sons of Jesus. To this lucky people God has "freely given" Jesus. To the others, there is no access to heaven. All of this is chosen, predetermined, before we have had any chance to exercise free will. The cause and affect is not that our free will determines out fate; but that we will act in a way that will save us, if God has chosen us to act that way. It clearly denies free will.

 

But the Bible is voluminous and confusing sometimes, written by multiple Human beings, and it is odd to argue that something "must be true" from one mere verse. It helps if we have multiple versus behind any Biblical argument. Sometimes when Christians argue amongst themselves it turns into a verse-by-verse punch up!

 

"4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

 

Ephesians 2:4-10 [NIV]

 

Ephesians continues. Versus one to four talk about how particular people once lived in sin, but that 'the spirit' comes to work in particular people to reform them. These people, who become reformed, are those who God has chosen to reform, as we have seen earlier in Ephesians. Here, the author of Ephesians explains that it is not by personal effort that you are saved. It is 'not from yourself' but it is 'the gift of God' that saves people. Specifically, then, God chooses some people and grants them the gift of God, those who are chosen before time, according to God's plan, to conform to Jesus. Those who are chosen by God are automatically destined to 'do good works' which 'God prepared in advance for us to do'. It's not that people choose to do good, and are therefore accepted into Haven, or even that people choose to do good and therefore come to accept Jesus. The Bible clearly states that God makes specific people do specific 'good works', which God has chosen that certain people will do.

 

Those who do good works are those who God has predetermined to do good works. There is no free will involved.

 

3. Romans

 

Much of the New Testament after the gospels are the letters (epistles) of Paul to various Churches, and more epistles are written in the name of Paul. Ephesians, as we saw above, is one example of a book written the name of Paul. Romans is written by Paul himself, and is also heavily deterministic. It is not only Ephesians that says God does not judge us according to our free will.

 

"28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"

Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]

 

Note the logic here... God has called certain people according to what God wants to get done, and these people love God. God then "works for the good" of these people. It is not that these people have acted well and have then accepted God: People are predestined to be "conformed" to Jesus. These people are predestined to love God. It doesn't matter about their free will or whether they wanted to accept Jesus, or even if they believe in Jesus or not. God "predestined, called, justified and glorified" those who it chose, not those who chose God. Their choice was irrelevant: If God predetermined them to be accepted, then they therefore behave in a way that makes them accepted, conformed to Jesus. In Christianity you only get into Heaven through Jesus, but in Christianity as we have seen, you are only blessed with Jesus, and you only conform to Jesus, if God has chosen you to be.

 

If your choices determine if you go to Heaven, then the Bible is constantly saying that such choices were chosen by God. Not by you. Specifically, clearly and definately chosen by God. Your actions are not according to your will, but to God's, "according to his will and pleasure" and "according to his purpose". Not your will or pleasure, not your purpose, and certainly not your choice!

 

So far we have seen that God has chosen some people to be predestined and predetermined to be blessed with conformity to Jesus' will. What of the others, then, who God has chosen not to conform to Jesus, who God has chosen not to be blameless and holy? Presumably, they go on to make similar choices in life to those who are chosen, but they just don't get it right because God hasn't created them in that way. God has created them to fail.

 

This raises problems! If God is not just, unfair, what are Christians to do with their own beliefs? How do they make sense of it, if God itself is not the all-loving God that they believe it might claim to be? God is lying, or Christians are deceived! St. Paul saw these problems, too, and all the great Christian dialogues of history include long philosophical debates on the problem of the lack of free will and the resultant amorality of God itself. St Paul touches on such inquiry in Romans 9:

 

"10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls - she was told "The older will serve the younger". 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated".

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" [Exodus 33:19]"

 

Romans 9:10-15 [NIV]

 

The answer given as an answer by Paul makes no sense... it doesn't even address the question: Is God just? How can a just God predetermine people to sin, to be hated by God, and predetermine them not to 'conform to Jesus', and then judge those people for that predetermination that was beyond their control? None of these are answered by Paul's quote from the Jewish Scriptures. Thankfully Paul does not leave his attempted discussion there. He goes on to affirm that free will does not affect our fate, and then he asks finally and directly: If our actions and nature are determined by God, how can god blame us for those actions? The Biblical text runs thusly:

 

"16It does not therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on all the earth." [Exodus 9:16] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" "

 

Romans 9:16-19 [NIV]

 

And that is the clincher; the ultimate question. Paul has asked "Is just unjust?" for its denial of free will, for its disregard for what our choices and intentions are. Paul now has a mortal present that same question. His answer is a shocker:

 

"20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"[isaiah 29:16, 45:9] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"

Romans 9:20-21 [NIV]

 

The answer is: Tough! God is unjust, simply because it can be! There is no justification, God makes some people "for noble use", chosen and predestined to do good works 'which God prepared in advance' 'according to his purpose'. If you're not lucky enough to be created for a noble purpose, then you are for common use, relegated to hell and torment, a life without conformity to Christ, and not only is this unjust and painful situation created by God, Paul then says that you have no right to even raise a concern! You can't ask, "Is God Just?" or "How can God still blame us for our actions?", Paul simply states that it doesn't matter, it is tough, God 'hardens who he wants to harden', those who were not noble are waste, space-filler, used, abused... and this unholy mess was all created by God, according to the Bible! No free will is involved, no Human volition can change whether we were made for noble purposes to do pre-planned good acts, or whether we were made for common use, to be discarded and "punished" simply for not having been created right!

 

It is true that God is not just and unfair: And according to The Bible, God definately doesn't like being quizzed on this matter! But when pressed to answer, Paul is honest about God's lack of justice. Paul states multiple times, in accordance with the rest of the scripture we see on this page, that free will and personal choices are not the important factor in salvation: Paul then goes further in Romans 9 and admits that God is arbitrary, and it's simply tough that people were created for 'common use' as slaves of Satan, and that only some are created for 'noble purposes'. The God of the Christian bible is amoral... do Christians know that they don't worship a good God? Since the very inception of Christianity, since before the Bible was written, Christians and Humans have been questioning whether the God portrayed is a good God. Paul admits that it isn't a good God, merely a God that has lots of power! A God that owns us and can do as it wants... but not a moral or just God. Such is the God of the Christian Bible.

 

4. 2nd Letter to Timothy

 

"The two letters to Timothy and the letter to Titus are known as the "pastoral epistles", being largely concerned with the care and running of the Church. Though traditionally ascribed to Paul, some scholars now believe the letters to have been written some years after Paul's death."

"Bible Facts" by Jenny Roberts

 

Paul is writing emotionally to Timothy, his close friend. His letter talks of their faith and work. He describes himself as a "prisoner" of God:

 

"[God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, "

2 Timonth 1:9 [NASB]

 

Once again, it is not their choices that have led to them 'called with a holy calling'. It is God's will that has caused this, irrespective of what 'choices' the person made, or is to make, during their lives. Free will doesn't enter the equation.

 

5. Misc. Biblical Text

 

Ecclesiastes 7:13 (old testament) asks, "Consider God's handiwork; who can straighten what He hath made crooked?". The answer as we have seen is that no-one can. God creates people and the world 'crooked'; not due to free will or our choices, but because god, as the proceeding verses state, has made the good times and the bad times and it has made them "well". There is no changing what god has made crooked, because there is no free will!

 

6. Those Who Are Not Chosen

 

"All people living on the Earth will worship [The Devil], except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to [Jesus]"

Revelations 13:8 [NIV]

 

Those who worship the Devil, who are not saved, suffer punishment, pain, torment and an eternal life in hell. God, therefore, has created two types of people. Those who conform to Jesus and those who don't. It doesn't matter what your actions in life are, what your choices are, what your purpose or will is: If God has chosen you, then it is predetermined that you will behave in a certain way. The Bible makes it clear. All others are created to be punished. God specifically creates people with personalities that do not, and will not, conform to Christ. It creates specific people who will. Those who are chosen are chosen and act according to God's plan (not their own) and those who are not chosen have no way to be chosen: They cannot be chosen. Only those who are chosen, as we have seen, become 'blameless', 'conform' to Jesus and therefore enter heaven.

 

"9The work of Satan [...] 10in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. 13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you[a] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

2 Thessalonians 9-13 [NIV]

 

There are those who are not chosen by God, who God has created to not conform to Jesus, and who God has not chosen before time to become one with Jesus, nor even to understand Jesus. These people cannot accept the truth, because God has not chosen them as ones who will understand it. In addition, to make sure, God sends these 'walking dead' "a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie". We have seen that God selects, in advance, who will perform well and who will not. God selects in advance who will be blessed and God chooses who will choose to conform to Jesus. All of this is God's choice. In additon, those who God does not elect to be saved are condmned, but also have powerful delusions sent to them that make them believe lies. It is God's will that these people are not chosen by God, God's will that they are not blessed with Jesus nor are they 'conformers' to Jesus (because God didn't choose them to be), and in addition it is God's will that they believe lies. The disbelievers and the believers are all, as we have seen multiple times, acting in accordance with the way God wants them to act. Those that do good, God has chosen to do good and even chosen what 'good works' they will do! Those who God has not chosen to be good, God deceives with powerful delusions. No element of free will exists in any of this scheme; it is not personal choice that affects fate, it is only God's will.

 

In addition to all this arbitrary cruently and unfair allocation of grace, the author believes that we should thank God for its choice to save some people, and not others. God makes people do good, the Bible says, and then rewards those people: "those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified". And others he punishes. Not because they've done wrong, but because God has chosen them to do wrong. God makes them to wrong, just like it makes the chosen perform specific good works.

 

The author of Thessalonians says we ought to thank god for this state of affairs: Thank God that many of our friends are made to make bad choices, and thank God for sending powerful delusions to trick those who God has not predestined to save. It seems the author of Thessalonians believes in a deeply immoral god, and has no concept of right or wrong. Does Thessalonians represent the word of a loving God? Is there a loving God, or only an arbitrary, amoral God? Judging by what we have seen so far, God has no concept of justice, morality or mercy: God rewards in full, or punishes in full, and our free will and choices in life can never change what God wants with us.

 

Apologies if the text on page seems repetitve: But I am only repeating what the Bible says, and The Christian Bible repeatedly denies free will or choice to us.

 

7. Predeterminists

 

The history of Christianity is complex and wide. Since the very formation of Christianity, different Christian groups have competed with different ideas, reflecting the fact that converts to Christianity were from Roman, Jewish and Pagan descent. Christianity itself is derived from a mixture of elements of Roman religious myths, Pagan myths and god-men stories, sun worship and gnosticism. From these sources came different initial opinions on free will within Christianity. These issues were debated in the first few centuries and since then, nothing new has been said on the issue. No new opinions have been expressed on the subject in two thousand years. It is an old debate, and one that is in my mind clearly settled by the determinists. Christianity has no room for free will, but for psychological or other reasons, many Christians (perhaps most) have believed in genuine individual free will.

 

"A leading feature in the teaching of the Reformers of the sixteenth century, especially in the case of Luther and Calvin, was the denial of free will. Picking out from the Scriptures, and particularly from St. Paul, the texts which emphasized the importance and efficacy of grace, the all-ruling providence of God, His decrees of election or predestination, and the feebleness of man, they drew the conclusion that the human will, instead of being master of its own acts, is rigidly predetermined in all its choices throughout life. As a consequence, man is predestined before his birth to eternal punishment or reward in such fashion that he never can have had any real free-power over his own fate. In his controversy with Erasmus, who defended free will, Luther frankly stated that free will is a fiction, a name which covers no reality, for it is not in man's power to think well or ill, since all events occur by necessity. In reply to Erasmus's "De Libero Arbitrio", he published his own work, "De Servo Arbitrio", glorying in emphasizing man's helplessness and slavery. The predestination of all future human acts by God is so interpreted as to shut out any possibility of freedom. An inflexible internal necessity turns man's will whithersoever God preordains. With Calvin, God's preordination is, if possible, even more fatal to free will. Man can perform no sort of good act unless necessitated to it by God's grace which it is impossible for him to resist. It is absurd to speak of the human will "co-operating" with God's grace, for this would imply that man could resist the grace of God. The will of God is the very necessity of things. It is objected that in this case God sometimes imposes impossible commands. Both Calvin and Luther reply that the commands of God show us not what we can do but what we ought to do. In condemnation of these views, the Council of Trent declared that the free will of man, moved and excited by God, can by its consent co-operate with God, Who excites and invites its action; and that it can thereby dispose and prepare itself to obtain the grace of justification. The will can resist grace if it chooses. It is not like a lifeless thing, which remains purely passive. Weakened and diminished by Adam's fall, free will is yet not destroyed in the race (Sess. VI, cap. i and v)."

The Catholic Encyclopedia

 

8. Conclusion

 

Comprehensively we have shown that The Christian Bible denies free will and any element of choice in what good works we do. God has picked who will do what good deeds, and God also punishes and rewards people on account of what God has chosen, in accordance with God's plan and purpose. This is all very unfair, immoral by any standards, and evil. If the Christian God exists, it is evil. A good god would simply choose everyone to conform to Jesus, to be blessed, to be 'blameless'. This must only amplify the grief of those who are not chosen! The scheme of God, according to the Bible, has nothing to do with free will. It has everything to do with God exercising power, with no concern for morality or free will.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

This totally cracks me up. On the one hand evil is subjective, on the other hand the Bible paints God as completely evil. That's just too funny.

 

I agree. It's funny that you still can't see it. You can easily have it both ways. It is my opinion that the Bible paints the god character to be evil. It is yours that it doesn't. Can you see the subjectivity, yet?

 

Show me where I'm being illogical.

 

In my opinion, believing in an invisible man in the clouds is illogical. Believing that said invisible mad created the first two humans out of mud and a rib is illogical. Believing that this same invisible man made a completely illogical world wide flood that wiped out the sinning humans when he knew everything they would ever do wrong before they were ever even born is illogical. Why not blame yourself? If a tv is defective, it's the manufacturer's fault. And why a flood? It's so wasteful. Think of all the innocents it would take out in the process! Why not just zap the the whole human race out of existence, like they never existed, go back to the drawing board, and make better organic robots to play with? Believing that an invisible man would come down and have sex with a married Jewish woman just to have a child who was born to be killed. Why did he have to die? To forgive people. But this is very illogical. Think about this. If my wife was raped would I kill my son to forgive the rapist? No! Why? Beacuse it just doesn't make sense. You punish the guilty. That's logic.

 

Based on your earlier comments it isn't a valid statement to call the Bible (or anything) immoral. If you're going to take the stance that morality is subjective then you loose the option of stating anything as being immoral. You just can't have it both ways.

 

I can call the Bible immoral exactly because morality is subjective. For example, the Bible says that homosexuals should be executed, that children should be beaten with rods and stoned if they're rebellious and then women should not have any authority over men. amongst many other unsavory things. Is this moral? I don't think so. But you just might. I know plenty of Christians think that simply because it's in the Bible it's moral.